OU The Ninjask Thread

[YubelVT]

(Jasking Off, if you will)
To finally kill the "monopolization" of the metagame thread, this will be the Ninjask/Sand Attack/Speed Pass thread.

Why does Ninjask warrant such discussion?
The combination of the Ability Speed Boost and Baton Pass makes for an extremely polarizing style of play that is arguably uncompetitive and widely scorned by the player base. It forces extremely linear lines of play that aren't really seen outside of RBY. The semi-recent discovery of Sand Attack as the 4th move on this set increases the polarization of Ninjask games tenfold by restricting consistent phazers even further to 3 pokemon tiered as OU, and some decent but otherwise super niche UUBL and below pokemon.

Why does Sand Attack warrant such discussion?
Other than being blatantly uncompetitive, the discovery of a style of play consisting of 4 trappers and 2 tracers which semi consistently takes games to the turn 1000 cap brought Sand Attack into main stream ADV discussion.

Why does Speed Pass warrant such discussion?
At this time, it really doesn't, but due to the questionable at best old gen tiering policy wanting to avoid complex bans for whatever reason, it's shoehorned into the Ninjask discussion because realistically that's what's gonna be on the chopping block.

 

[orfable]

Thank you YubeIVT for actually moving forward in order to take action against Ninjask. It's incredibly regrettable that other influential members of the ADV OU council or larger threads couldn't do what you did and have instead threatened members of the community to not talk about Ninjask in the ADV OU Metagame Discussion, despite this pesky bug being part of the metagame.

For any new viewers to this thread, the objective of us Ninjask haters is to start debates and create communication between the overall gen 3 community until we come to a larger consensus that Ninjask (sand attack Ninjask in particular) is healthy to the metagame or not. As it currently stands, many people don't have an opinion about sand attack Ninjask as it's very rare to see it be seriously played on ladder or on tournaments and that Ninjask is a "bad mon". However, there have been many instances of "bad mons" be banned or have had complex bans because of evasion or baton pass, Cacturne and Cacnea being the biggest examples of bad mons that were banned because they were unhealthy to the metagame while not being common to face or overpowered.

9 out of 10 gen 3 OU players will say sand attack Ninjask is not fun to face and turns a game of pokemon into a game of slots. If sand attack Ninjask becomes more common to face on ladder, surely more people will notice it, form opinions, and eventually talk about it seriously. In order to achieve this, I highly encourage people on this thread to deliberately use sand attack Ninjask teams on ladder and post comments, opinions, replays, elo ratings/win rates, or even sustainable answers/counters to the strategy. Obviously, many within the community don't take sand attack Ninjask seriously. Let's change that.

 

[Red M]

Is there are reason ADV OU doesn't have an evasion clause like other metagames do?

 

[orfable]

Is there are reason ADV OU doesn't have an evasion clause like other metagames do?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think ADV OU is the only meta that doesn't have a full evasion clause, in fact I don't think most have one outside of self boosting evasion. In fact, acupressure in future gens has a chance to boost evasion but nobody sees it as a problem or even annoying to face against.

 

[YubelVT]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think ADV OU is the only meta that doesn't have a full evasion clause, in fact I don't think most have one outside of self boosting evasion. In fact, acupressure in future gens has a chance to boost evasion but nobody sees it as a problem or even annoying to face against.

So fun fact: gen 7 just has sand veil legal. I think I'm the only person on the planet who ever uses it tho because it's literally only optimal on mega garchomp to sometimes get free entry

 

[giraffefromholland]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think ADV OU is the only meta that doesn't have a full evasion clause, in fact I don't think most have one outside of self boosting evasion. In fact, acupressure in future gens has a chance to boost evasion but nobody sees it as a problem or even annoying to face against.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-bake-this-half-baked-implementation.3713926/

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-baton-pass-v184.3732533/post-9890621

A Sand Attack ban is popular. It's not the playerbase, and most members of the council actually want to improve the tier, but we've heard from Star and M Dragon that the people above the council who decided what acceptable tiering action consists of are not entertaining a Sand Attack ban. I also think there's some opposition to a Ninjask ban, but I'm not sure if that would succeed either way, partly because there are some more serious proponents of Jask as an offensive tool. As it stands, the Council is just the middle man between the playerbase and the real decision makers.

Last time Jask was discussed, the conversation was streamlined into a general Speed Pass ban discussion. I don't think we lose any important teams either way, but people like their toys.

 

[YubelVT]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-bake-this-half-baked-implementation.3713926/

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-baton-pass-v184.3732533/post-9890621

A Sand Attack ban is popular. It's not the playerbase, and most members of the council actually want to improve the tier, but we've heard from Star and M Dragon that the people above the council who decided what acceptable tiering action consists of are not entertaining a Sand Attack ban. I also think there's some opposition to a Ninjask ban, but I'm not sure if that would succeed either way, partly because there are some more serious proponents of Jask as an offensive tool. As it stands, the Council is just the middle man between the playerbase and the real decision makers.

Last time Jask was discussed, the conversation was streamlined into a general Speed Pass ban discussion. I don't think we lose any important teams either way, but people like their toys.

Fun fact: star is "people above the council" and it's why there's major disdain for him among the gen 3 OU playerbase. I was in ADVCord (and SEA can vouch because I'm paraphrasing him) and, when the first turn 1k replays were emerging, SEA just straight up said that starmaster shut down all discussion in the council about sand attack because it "doesn't affect tournament play" and then star doubled down in the infamous metagame thread post. SandAttacker come back we need you now more than ever

 

[orfable]

Fun fact: star is "people above the council" and it's why there's major disdain for him among the gen 3 OU playerbase. I was in ADVCord (and SEA can vouch because I'm paraphrasing him) and, when the first turn 1k replays were emerging, SEA just straight up said that starmaster shut down all discussion in the council about sand attack because it "doesn't affect tournament play" and then star doubled down in the infamous metagame thread post. SandAttacker come back we need you now more than ever

As somebody who didn't know that, it's quite insane to learn that these are things happening in a metagame that has a very long history. I understood that the OU council doesn't rule the tier with an iron fist, but I never thought that there were people above the council who ignore the voices of the community for whatever reason they believe is justifiable. People who represent a community should always take into the views, opinions, and voices of the people who they represent. Perhaps the only way to force this is to make the community turn on itself by making sand attack Ninjask popular. To anyone reading this, if you have a strong desire to make the community better, I highly recommend you play sand attack Ninjask on ladder to have them voice out their thoughts and opinions on Ninjask. Bonus points if you could convince them to also use sand attack Ninjask on ladder to make it a popular metagame threat that the OU "Gods" can't ignore.

 

[orfable]

I'd like to give a small update about my personal experience using sand attack Ninjask on ladder. For anybody who has missed my comment on the ADV OU Metagame Discussion thread, I have previously compared and contrasted sand attack Ninjask teams to similarly cheesy reversal sweeper teams. Back then I mentioned that sand attack Ninjask teams are much more consistent than reversal sweepers and the elos of the people who use them speak for itself.

Well, after just a couple of days (maybe like an hour and a half total) of me playing sand attack Ninjask, I have gained over 200 elo from low 1400s to currently 1642. Sand attack Ninjask is within the top 100 of the gen 3 OU playerbase. I want everyone to let that sink in.

 

[YubelVT]

I'd like to give a small update about my personal experience using sand attack Ninjask on ladder. For anybody who has missed my comment on the ADV OU Metagame Discussion thread, I have previously compared and contrasted sand attack Ninjask teams to similarly cheesy reversal sweeper teams. Back then I mentioned that sand attack Ninjask teams are much more consistent than reversal sweepers and the elos of the people who use them speak for itself.

Well, after just a couple of days (maybe like an hour and a half total) of me playing sand attack Ninjask, I have gained over 200 elo from low 1400s to currently 1642. Sand attack Ninjask is within the top 100 of the gen 3 OU playerbase. I want everyone to let that sink in.

Apparently sand attack jask has been top 1 on ladder multiple times, but given how little time its taken for you to reach top 100, this is still fucked

 

[orfable]

Apparently sand attack jask has been top 1 on ladder multiple times, but given how little time its taken for you to reach top 100, this is still fucked

It's insane hearing that. It's difficult to fathom that there's a significant portion of the playerbase that says sand attack Ninjask is too rare to be a threat when it has peaked on ladder more than once.

 

[YubelVT]

It's insane hearing that. It's difficult to fathom that there's a significant portion of the playerbase that says sand attack Ninjask is too rare to be a threat when it has peaked on ladder more than once.

the portion of the playerbase who say this are generally talking abut tournament play but, as SEA said, people would use ninjask more if the wider playerbase didn't hate ninjask and its users

 

[orfable]

the portion of the playerbase who say this are generally talking abut tournament play but, as SEA said, people would use ninjask more if the wider playerbase didn't hate ninjask and its users

More of a reason to spread Ninjask across the tier

 

[YubelVT]

More of a reason to spread Ninjask across the tier

You go right on ahead, I'd genuinely rather die than use ninjask ever

 

[Painkiller Already]

I'm a bit sad that these discussions rarely seem to be in good faith. You always see so many people defend the status quo for the sake of it.. You see this in any gaming community like this, some people desperately want to feel above what they perceive as "the complainers".

I just want to write this comment to remind everyone that we all have the same goals in mind. We all love Gen3 OU and want it to improve and be the best version of itself.

Now with it being said let me talk on-topic: I think there is genuinely no argument for Sand Attack to be allowed. We banned Sand Veil too and it's not like Cacturne wasn't rare, so the whole "but it's too rare!" argument we can immediately ignore as it has no basis. Accurary reduction or evasion is just too random and hugely impactful when it does randomly matter. It is not competitive and it makes the tier worse.

Now for Ninjask, I can go either way but I prefer a ban. I don't think it makes for good gameplay. When Ninjask wins, it feels very overbearing and when it loses it's usually incredible one-sided the other way as well.

The games are rarely fun when Ninjask is involved. You don't get the exciting back and forth at all. It's a binary outcome, does Ninjask get to do its thing or not. The whole game boils down to that. A game like that has none of the qualities that people love about ADV.

 

[giraffefromholland]

I'm a bit sad that these discussions rarely seem to be in good faith. You always see so many people defend the status quo for the sake of it.. You see this in any gaming community like this, some people desperately want to feel above what they perceive as "the complainers".

It's not so much about gaming communities as human psychology. It's hard for people to imagine anything outside of what they know and are comfortable with when they don't personally see the problems with it. It's also easier for people to avoid thinking about these things from perspectives that exist outside of their bubbles. We make assumptions and never have to evaluate them when they go unchallenged or are convenient for us. The other side of the coin is, when you have the comfort and authority of the status quo, you never have to offer an untested or independent opinion, and it's easy to fling criticisms about how alternative perspectives have shortcomings and limitations while hiding behind arguments that you don't have to question, when all perspectives, including the status quo, are subject to limitations. This also gives birth to the type of thinking that suggests the status quo is correct for a (good) reason, and anyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but blind to reason. It's a lot easier to have arguments with these people when you can show them the implicit assumptions in their logic -- assumptions are neither bad nor exclusive to 'wrong thinking,' but a lack of awareness of these assumptions is -- and highlight a point where they run out of viable answers.

 

[orfable]

I'm a bit sad that these discussions rarely seem to be in good faith. You always see so many people defend the status quo for the sake of it.. You see this in any gaming community like this, some people desperately want to feel above what they perceive as "the complainers".

I just want to write this comment to remind everyone that we all have the same goals in mind. We all love Gen3 OU and want it to improve and be the best version of itself.

Now with it being said let me talk on-topic: I think there is genuinely no argument for Sand Attack to be allowed. We banned Sand Veil too and it's not like Cacturne wasn't rare, so the whole "but it's too rare!" argument we can immediately ignore as it has no basis. Accurary reduction or evasion is just too random and hugely impactful when it does randomly matter. It is not competitive and it makes the tier worse.

Now for Ninjask, I can go either way but I prefer a ban. I don't think it makes for good gameplay. When Ninjask wins, it feels very overbearing and when it loses it's usually incredible one-sided the other way as well.

The games are rarely fun when Ninjask is involved. You don't get the exciting back and forth at all. It's a binary outcome, does Ninjask get to do its thing or not. The whole game boils down to that. A game like that has none of the qualities that people love about ADV.

What's incredibly interesting is that I've talked to many players about sand attack Ninjask, with an overwhelming majority telling me they believe there should be some form of action done to remove either sand attack or Ninjask from the game, however, the people who say they're fine with it either say they're fine because they don't care or don't elaborate about their thoughts at all. What's also interesting is that every time I try to invite someone who disagrees about potential action against sand attack Ninjask, they always decline the offer and end up never elaborating about why they think sand attack Ninjask should be legal.

I'm not making fun of Ninjask defenders in fact I'd love to know more about what they think about Ninjask, but when most of the community want some sort of action against Ninjask and the very few people who don't want action against Ninjask have nothing to provide for reasoning, I genuinely believe it's time the Gen 3 OU Gods or whatever should just do something about it to make the game just a tad bit more competitive and fun.

 

[Deezcastforms]

I've already said my piece on this in the metagame discussion thread, but I will reiterate my beliefs here

Sand-Attack Ninjask needs to go. Full stop, there is absolutely nothing that anybody on Smogon could say that could convince me that Sand-Attack Ninjask has a place in OU.

Speed Pass is healthy, good for the game, and should not be removed. Even Speed Pass Ninjask is fine so long as it does not have Sand-Attack.

Banning Sand-Attack on Ninjask specifically is not an option because of old gen tiering policy, but that is not even a serious issue in this case. Just ban Sand-Attack as a whole from the tier. That would not be a complex ban, and it would still perfectly remove the issue without touching anything else in the tier.

If for whatever idiotic reason banning Sand-Attack is rejected, then banning Ninjask from OU would be massively preferable to doing nothing. Again, banning Speed Pass would be the worst thing that could be done to solve the issue.

Both ADV League and the JimCool tournaments, the biggest ADV OU tournaments not hosted on Smogon (including Invitational), have already banned not only Sand-Attack, but all forms of accuracy lowering tools such as Bright Powder. This has, against what has been claimed, effected these tournaments positively.

In conclusion, for the love of Arceus, ban Sand-Attack and its ilk.

 

[violet river]

if anyone whose opinion matters actually had the drive to ban sand attack it would be gone. you shouldnt be trying to go directly up the chain, this is like peasants banging on the castle palisade because the baron raised taxes. you have to get the nobles on your side so that your yapping and bitching actually gets heard instead of battered aside. tldr either get good or get someone good to champion your cause

 

[YubelVT]

if anyone whose opinion matters actually had the drive to ban sand attack it would be gone. you shouldnt be trying to go directly up the chain, this is like peasants banging on the castle palisade because the baron raised taxes. you have to get the nobles on your side so that your yapping and bitching actually gets heard instead of battered aside. tldr either get good or get someone good to champion your cause

You don't understand how fucked tiering is actually. And I don't mean this in a mean way either because it's not something obvious. Starmaster single handedly shut down all discussion WITHIN THE COUNCIL about banning sand attack, and they were able to do this because, for some reason, they are on both the gen 3 OU council and the wider old gen council. Combine this with a COMPLETELY ASININE TAKE

Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned

^ that is part of every Smogon ruleset. If your opponent reports you for using this strategy on the ladder, you will get DQ’d. If you bring this to a tournament, you will automatically lose.

This is not really a tiering question at all, but moreso if we can find a way to more proactively enforce the Endless Battle Clause for these cases which I can try to look into. This whole thing isn’t limited to Sand Attack either, it could also be forced by paralysing and trapping a mon with limited attacking pp although it’s obviously a little harder that way / maybe requires more luck. Regardless, intentionally forcing endless battles is already against the rules and not a concern in tournaments. For now, on the ladder, I’d encourage ppl to just report opponents who use this if they’d like to save some time and enjoy free ELO.

and you get the situation we are stuck in. The OGC would literally need to cease to exist for sand attack to leave.

the relevant messages in this screenshot are from SEA (blue name). tldr the OGC blows and sand attack cannot be touched

 

[Spreek]

I really can't understand the reasoning behind keeping sand attack. It is obviously uncompetitive and not good for the tier
.
"But it's not good/super niche." Fair, but that also means that very little is being lost by banning it.

"Muh complex ban. Too many rules hard to understand!" Adding an extra word to the evasion clause seems pretty easy to understand. As a relative newcomer here, I can say for sure I could just as easily have understood an accuracy + evasion ban as an evasion ban.

 

[gnore]

it seems like the reason for OHKO clause could also apply to Sand Attack

 

[violet river]

You don't understand how fucked tiering is actually. And I don't mean this in a mean way either because it's not something obvious. Starmaster single handedly shut down all discussion WITHIN THE COUNCIL about banning sand attack, and they were able to do this because, for some reason, they are on both the gen 3 OU council and the wider old gen council. Combine this with a COMPLETELY ASININE TAKE


and you get the situation we are stuck in. The OGC would literally need to cease to exist for sand attack to leave.
View attachment 659421View attachment 659422
the relevant messages in this screenshot are from SEA (blue name). tldr the OGC blows and sand attack cannot be touched

as someone who actively talks to council members I think it's pretty ridiculous for someone who barely interacts in those circles to speak down to me saying "bro you don't understand how fucked the system is, xyz is what happened". dude, you don't know these people. you're just willing the most convenient interpretation of reality into existence

 

[YubelVT]

as someone who actively talks to council members I think it's pretty ridiculous for someone who barely interacts in those circles to speak down to me saying "bro you don't understand how fucked the system is, xyz is what happened". dude, you don't know these people. you're just willing the most convenient interpretation of reality into existence

this is quite literally entirely starmaster's fault I'm not willing anything into existence. the OGC as a whole doesn't do anything good for oldgens but starmaster being on both the OGC and the ADV OU council is ridiculous. I was present back in june during those screenshat conversations. Sand Attack ban is quite popular among the wider playerbase and even most of the council supports it but starmaster is the problem. I don't mean to talk down to you, I really don't. I'm just frustrated that nothing can actually be done.

 

[Kahila911]

You don't understand how fucked tiering is actually. And I don't mean this in a mean way either because it's not something obvious. Starmaster single handedly shut down all discussion WITHIN THE COUNCIL about banning sand attack, and they were able to do this because, for some reason, they are on both the gen 3 OU council and the wider old gen council. Combine this with a COMPLETELY ASININE TAKE


and you get the situation we are stuck in. The OGC would literally need to cease to exist for sand attack to leave.
View attachment 659421View attachment 659422
the relevant messages in this screenshot are from SEA (blue name). tldr the OGC blows and sand attack cannot be touched

I still don't understand why we let someone called "rectalcavity345" be part of the discussion