You have to predict the roar/bp. Otherwise you lose. Claydol helps though. Just don't get boomed/dbonded by Gengar.
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OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter vapicuno
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The main reason to use Focus Punch is to hit Skarmory if you have Magneton it’s largely redundant
Taunt isn’t that good in general. You definitely want both Ice Punch and Explosion. This is the set I use.
Gengar (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 168 HP / 164 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hypnosis
- Ice Punch
- Explosion
- Will-O-Wisp
Against Metagross just click Will-O-Wisp. Against Smeargle click Explosion if you're afraid of Lum Berry or missing a Hypnosis. Thunder Wave Zapdos isn’t dealing damage so it doesn’t really matter if you miss Hypnosis, also there's no reason to click Thunder Wave in the first place Thunderbolt is just better. Even if Gengar just burns something it allows you to go into a sweeper. Also 60% isn’t as bad as it sounds especially because of how busted sleep is.
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 209-247 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Don't use Swampert vs Jolteon, Hidden Power Grass is used 54.212% of the time.
This is really cool! I just thought I'd chip in with a few things I noticed in the bottom tier. The following are all lesser common leads.
4-Attack Starmie: Has good lead mus and is great for chipping targets into range of your late game cleaner.
Arcanine: Has a number of lead sets with the most important difference being the HP. Fighting threatens tar, ice threatens mence, grass is the other common type. Fire stab threatens meta/skarm and out damages most zapdos sets. Can reliably knock common leads into e-speed range. Can run bulky/utility sets, phys, spec, or most commonly, mixed. Overheat + white herb and thief is underrated.
Offensive Milotic: Usually runs a modest nature with pump and beam + hypnosis and recover. Good lead MUs. Great way to start with momentum and pick up a cheeky sleep.
Endeavor Swellow: We all know the vapicuno team. Swellow subs, endeavours and BPs a starf berry boost to a teammate.
Slowbro: Niche, but works as a lead for special offense. Twave surf beam blast is the usual set, though its move pool is deep.
Wailord: One of the few water mons with boom. It is excellent at forcing out special walls and booming them. Usually a special offense lead.
Sleep Venusaur: Self-explanatory and very customizable. I've personally never used it so I can't comment on sets.
Typhlosion: You basically run the zard set or 4-attacks. The advantage is that you're neutral/resistant to bolt beam.
Those are all the sets that I see on ladder at least a reasonable amount, though they're all much much less common than the standard leads. But, they can be good if used correctly.
Other Leads That Are Bad But Do Exist:
Ludicolo has surprising lead mus and versatility, as does sceptile with a leech + 3 attack set or sub endev. Lead weezing is a thing on stall I think. Usually runs HP fight?
One last comment, but I do think your 'Bad Leads' and 'MU Fish' tiers are a bit crowded. CB molt lead exists and beats 2/3 of the standard leads. There have been recent innovations with lead Raikou, where it's run like a suicide lead without CM. In the MU Fish tier, I don't get the vaporeon, aero, or hera picks as they all have viable if not strong lead sets. HP fight aero, sub salac vape, CB jolly hera.
Ok one more and I swear I'm done. But that skarm is real high. I would put skarm lead somewhere near the mid-bottom, so I'm interested why you think it's so good.
Every single jolteon I have ever seen has had HP Ice, low ladder players do not respect the existence of swampert.
Lead Skarm will (almost) always survive a +Speed offensive Zapdos thunderbolt and get a spike off, combined with either the aforementioned wish support or just smart play you can very easily get that Skarm back to full. Against subdos it just whirlwinds turn 2 if it subs or switches turn 2 if it bolts. It's also not really scared of anything else the other leads can do to it barring jolteon which you still get a spike off in that scenario. I definitely agree that Skarm is nowhere near as high as second best lead in the tier but it's definitely one of the best leads in general.
So two things.
1. what the fuck do you mean BANDED MOLTRES
2. Lead Vaporeon, at least in my experience (and like I just noticed you mentioned), is always a salac passer and, barring crits as well as assuming just max HP investment, will always survive an offensive Zapdos thunderbolt regardless of nature. I could probably be convinced otherwise but lead speed passers are matchup fishers. Heracross definitely doesn't belong in the MU fish tier you are right on that but lead Aero does for both the HP fighting reason you mentioned as well as doing NOTHING to Skarmory and also not threatening out lead Salamence due to intimidate making rock slide a free* dragon dance which will almost immediately force something to either take heavy chip damage or give a free switch into something of your own.
*70% of the time it works all the time
So I've been recently using a monoclaw team (It's not been as horrible as you would think) and two mons in particular have really stood out that are not even on the VR.
Banette is a mon that is really, really good... Until they switch in skarmory in which case you have to act like they just roared you out. Of course, once skarm is out of the picture not much is switching in as really only swampert likes taking its hits, which even still is 4hit ko'd with one layer of spikes.
With quick claw specifically, it can be a surpisingly dangerous mon that can suprise kill many mons such as gengar that may think they can ko it once its taken damage. With max hp investment, banette is also quite bulky.
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Banette: 265-312 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, even metagross meteor mash isn't an ohko, which means any other weaker hit (which is most) will never be ohko'ing. Destiny bond is especially dastardly, and at some points you can get 3 ko's in one match off some lucky quick claw procs. Body slam I find is good move for banette, being a good midground click to ensure something is going to be taking good damage and potentially getting para'd (they will not be switching in gengar as it has a chance to not get the 2hit ko if they are offensive while shadow ball OHKO's them cleanly).
Outside of the quick claw shenanigans, I feel like banette is a really good mon that can put in work a lot of the time. It's a really good wallbreaker that some teams struggle to switch into.
Ursaring was something I was less sure was going to work, but it more than made up for it. Now, why ursaring over snorlax? Four reasons.
1. Swords dance allows it to make itself a lot more threatening immediately.
2. 130 attack is a lot more threatening than lax's 110 attack, which can come up short on some targets.
3. Guts can make any status users such as skarmory, swampert and zapdos regret ever clicking that status move as now ursaring is basically unwallable
4. Lax has to run rest most of the time to get multiple boosts in order to sweep properly, while ursaring doesn't need to due to the other points. This means it can slot in both e-quake and hidden power ghost to hit both steel types/ttar and gengar for big damage.
Now, what about skarmory? That walls snorlax and it also walls ursaring right?
+2 252+ Atk Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 204-241 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, no. If you can get statused then even skarm can't switch in consistently, and if that doesn't happen then skarmory has to protect spam in order to actually do it somewhat consistently, which can be abused with another sd to hit it harder. If you somehow get two sd's and a status condition on ursaring (though that is nearly impossible), you can do this.
+4 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Tyranitar: 379-447 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah, a physical hit (which is resisted) OHKO'ing skarmory. Never thought that would happen. If even skarm struggles against this, not much else can take a hit. Swampert is cleanly OHKO'd by guts return, tyranitar takes 74% min, jirachi takes 62% min and I could go on and on about how nothing can take a hit from ursa, but we don't have all day. Basically, if ursa is supported right, it can be the most devestating mon in the tier. With quick claw on this team, it can stop any revenge kills from faster mons. But even without quick claw, I feel it can put in significant work on a game to game basis.
Of course, maybe my results are a bit skewed due to these mons being run with quick claw, but I feel like the contribute a lot to a team, and should be experimented with more.
Banette is a mon that is really, really good... Until they switch in skarmory in which case you have to act like they just roared you out. Of course, once skarm is out of the picture not much is switching in as really only swampert likes taking its hits, which even still is 4hit ko'd with one layer of spikes.
With quick claw specifically, it can be a surpisingly dangerous mon that can suprise kill many mons such as gengar that may think they can ko it once its taken damage. With max hp investment, banette is also quite bulky.
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Banette: 265-312 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, even metagross meteor mash isn't an ohko, which means any other weaker hit (which is most) will never be ohko'ing. Destiny bond is especially dastardly, and at some points you can get 3 ko's in one match off some lucky quick claw procs. Body slam I find is good move for banette, being a good midground click to ensure something is going to be taking good damage and potentially getting para'd (they will not be switching in gengar as it has a chance to not get the 2hit ko if they are offensive while shadow ball OHKO's them cleanly).
Outside of the quick claw shenanigans, I feel like banette is a really good mon that can put in work a lot of the time. It's a really good wallbreaker that some teams struggle to switch into.
Ursaring was something I was less sure was going to work, but it more than made up for it. Now, why ursaring over snorlax? Four reasons.
1. Swords dance allows it to make itself a lot more threatening immediately.
2. 130 attack is a lot more threatening than lax's 110 attack, which can come up short on some targets.
3. Guts can make any status users such as skarmory, swampert and zapdos regret ever clicking that status move as now ursaring is basically unwallable
4. Lax has to run rest most of the time to get multiple boosts in order to sweep properly, while ursaring doesn't need to due to the other points. This means it can slot in both e-quake and hidden power ghost to hit both steel types/ttar and gengar for big damage.
Now, what about skarmory? That walls snorlax and it also walls ursaring right?
+2 252+ Atk Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 204-241 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, no. If you can get statused then even skarm can't switch in consistently, and if that doesn't happen then skarmory has to protect spam in order to actually do it somewhat consistently, which can be abused with another sd to hit it harder. If you somehow get two sd's and a status condition on ursaring (though that is nearly impossible), you can do this.
+4 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Tyranitar: 379-447 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah, a physical hit (which is resisted) OHKO'ing skarmory. Never thought that would happen. If even skarm struggles against this, not much else can take a hit. Swampert is cleanly OHKO'd by guts return, tyranitar takes 74% min, jirachi takes 62% min and I could go on and on about how nothing can take a hit from ursa, but we don't have all day. Basically, if ursa is supported right, it can be the most devestating mon in the tier. With quick claw on this team, it can stop any revenge kills from faster mons. But even without quick claw, I feel it can put in significant work on a game to game basis.
Of course, maybe my results are a bit skewed due to these mons being run with quick claw, but I feel like the contribute a lot to a team, and should be experimented with more.
does he know about the banded metagross explosion calcs (regirock is the only non ghost pokemon in the tier that survives (physdef skarmory isn't real))
Do you see anything wrong with this...
Aside from the miscalcing (I think it's a roll at +4 guts to ohko skarm anyway) these other examples are +2 and guts, not just guts. Generally people aren't going to tox an ursaring and let it set up for free unless they are bad, and under sand, spikes, being toxed, and on top of all that no leftovers, you're almost certainly not going to survive long enough to get more than one ko.
Okay, yeah. Banded meta explosion is powerful, but you also have to kill yourself for that. For a resisted hit that doesn't go "My main goal is to blow up" to potentially OHKO skarm is insane. I don't think anything else does that.
From what I've seen, yes, it is very possible to get +2 and guts. You are switching in on a predicted toxic, because nobody is going to be statusing a ursaring when its been revealed. But due to ursaring being very unpopular, most people throw out status moves willy nilly and don't think about the consequences. And the free setup turns are by you forcing out something that would be OHKO'd by guts ursaring.You are right that I did do the calc wrong lmao, its a roll to OHKO.
+4 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 306-361 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
But a 50% chance to OHKO skarm is still a big thing. And I've found that you can get 2 ko's per game most of the time, as they usually underestimate the power of ursaring and switch their normal resistance in like skarm (who is often pressured by lots of common top mons) and then sniped from even 50% hp, which most would not expect it to take that hit. You then switch out on the revenge switch and then launch an attack on something that can't do much to you. The passive damage you take is big, but spinning is possible and can be done, as forretress, starmie, cloyster and claydol are all good spinners, which alleviates the issue of passive damage a bit.
(i don't know where else to post this, so please redirect me if there's a better area)
I just witnessed an endless battle take place in ADV OU. This replay shows a Porygon2 stalling a Dugtrio for hundreds of turns until the tie is forced. Analyzing the offender's team show that the following combination of Pokemon, moves, and items enables endless battles:
* Charm + Sand-attack Dugtrio (and theoretically Diglett)
* Trick
* a Pokemon with Trace + Recycle holding a Leppa Berry
I just witnessed an endless battle take place in ADV OU. This replay shows a Porygon2 stalling a Dugtrio for hundreds of turns until the tie is forced. Analyzing the offender's team show that the following combination of Pokemon, moves, and items enables endless battles:
* Charm + Sand-attack Dugtrio (and theoretically Diglett)
* Trick
* a Pokemon with Trace + Recycle holding a Leppa Berry
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Something I didn't mention before is that banette is one of the hardest counters to breloom in the game. Insomonia means they can't even spore you like it can with gengar, while hidden power bug is an 8 hit ko, which is pathetic. The only way they can beat you is with the sub seed set (but they have to be at high health or already have a sub as shadow ball does 60% minimum) and the stun spore set, which still doesn't like taking a shadow ball and can't do much after the stun spore.
You can add Flash, and I think it first needs to trick lefties to ensure the Struggle will be infinite on the Dugtrio part. (Or Charm is enough?)
It reminds me the endless Wobuffet battles and it is disgusting to see. The first player could be discouraged to play for the rest of their life.
This shit might be exactly what we need to convince the smogon bureaucrats to fucking listen to the playerbase of this tier and actually put this shit under evasion clause. Someone build a consistent team ASAP because holy shit we finally found a concrete reason for tiering policy to be broken (other than the fact that ninjask is cringe and stupid)
you definitely have nice fantasy and a good understanding of the game. Ursaring works very well, right now on 1650 elo with a nice team with him :)
Hello folks,
I didn't find the thread to simple question, simple answer, so I will ask it here...
Are there somewhere I can play pokémon using baton pass on gen3?
Are there the customgame tier to gen3? Or a Anythinggoes to gen3?
I didn't find the thread to simple question, simple answer, so I will ask it here...
Are there somewhere I can play pokémon using baton pass on gen3?
Are there the customgame tier to gen3? Or a Anythinggoes to gen3?
...
Yeah, a physical hit (which is resisted) OHKO'ing skarmory. Never thought that would happen.
Actually you can use Facade, and after only one Swords Dance, you can do 83-98% to Standard Sdef Skarmory.
But, If you want to laugh a bit more, you can always OHKO offensive Tyranitar and Choice Bander Metagross after only 1 layer of Spikes. Instead for Bulky DDtar versions, you "only" have 87% chances of OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes.
But in general, Return is a better option :)
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141622576-ieajroyx52g8s31yv9iyydtyo5fue23pw
I think Arena Trap might be a bit cringe
I think Arena Trap might be a bit cringe
There's isn't a ladder or anything but you can use this code to challenge someone to an ADV Custom Game that effectively simulates an AG tier.
/challenge [user],gen3customgame@@@Obtainable,Endless Battle Clause,Deoxys Camouflage Clause 
I think that the community should consider banning the combination of Leppa Berry and Recycle in Gen III. In my battle, the opponent's Porygon2 could have won if it had used Sharpen/Curse with Return and Recover. Since my Dugtrio was trapped, had its lowest Attack and Accuracy and bad Speed, there was nothing stopping Porygon2 from setting up and then sweeping my team (the Pokémon I didn't reveal was Blissey, so a Ghost or a Steel Type were out of the question). On the other hand, if Porygon2 couldn't set up, then I was likely to win by ganging up on it.
Instead of winning or accepting his defeat, my opponent triggered and Endless Battle with the clear intention of tying after the turn limit of 1,000 was reached. If it weren't for the combination of Leppa Berry and Recycle, the strategy would have failed (Porygon2 would have ended without moves, then it would have killed Dugtrio with Struggle and then it would have been killed by my other five mons, after that, Skarmory would have been eaten alive by my team too). Imagine if this strategy happened on a big tournament or a live tournament, do you think it would be entertaining to watch or to play against?
isnt the simple solution banning sand attack? its an uncompetitive move (pure rng basis, which has been disallowed in the past when its not broken but just stupid eg cacturne) and is causing an infinite battle (infinite battle clause). its the lynchpin of two different very stupid things, and it itself is stupid, *and* its in line with tiering policy. IDK why sand attack is legal (even though its dogshit)
Mmm, it could be another possible solution.
If banning sand attack or accuracy moves is too harsh for the council (even if I think a lot of players would agree), maybe the following would work:
- banning combination of Trap ability / moves + accuracy moves.
- banning Recycle + Leppa Berry to enforce the infinite battle clause.
- banning combination of Trap ability / moves + accuracy moves.
- banning Recycle + Leppa Berry to enforce the infinite battle clause.
Trapping with sand attack is very fun and balanced. Achieved 1470 on the ladder and was trending higher before being stopped. Not sure why accuracy lowering moves are legal in the first place since they just enable stuff like this. Its super easy to set up and I could see it being optimal in team tournaments where the player just needs a tie to win the week.
Endless Gaming Moments:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141693301?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141672059
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141927232?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141577316
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141587163?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141629427
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141607436
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141479174
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141556029?p2
+ many more
For educational purposes (I don't endorse using it)
https://pokepast.es/2a6395e8f0e586b9
Endless Gaming Moments:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141693301?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141672059
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141927232?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141577316
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141587163?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141629427
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141607436
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141479174
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2141556029?p2
+ many more
For educational purposes (I don't endorse using it)
https://pokepast.es/2a6395e8f0e586b9
Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned
^ that is part of every Smogon ruleset. If your opponent reports you for using this strategy on the ladder, you will get DQ’d. If you bring this to a tournament, you will automatically lose.
This is not really a tiering question at all, but moreso if we can find a way to more proactively enforce the Endless Battle Clause for these cases which I can try to look into. This whole thing isn’t limited to Sand Attack either, it could also be forced by paralysing and trapping a mon with limited attacking pp although it’s obviously a little harder that way / maybe requires more luck. Regardless, intentionally forcing endless battles is already against the rules and not a concern in tournaments. For now, on the ladder, I’d encourage ppl to just report opponents who use this if they’d like to save some time and enjoy free ELO.
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