The move "Feint" and its usefulness/practicality

[Yoshi King]

I've been pondering about making this topic for awhile now, and finally decided to get on with it.

Feint

http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/feint.shtml

10 PP
Type: Normal
Base Power: 50
Battle Effect: Only works when foe uses Protect or Detect.

Back when the first news about D/P was being released, one of the newly revealed moves was "Feint". Not only were there endless discussions by idiots at GameFAQs (Note: I'm also on GameFAQs, I'm not a complete asshole) on how to pronounce the word, there were also discussions by those same idiots on how it would affect the metagame now that something could hit through a Pokemon using Protect or Detect.

Now though, it seems to have all but completely faded from memory. Is it really completely useless though?

In a single battle, I think the answer's a resounding "Absolutely". Out of the 493 Pokemon, pretty much everything learns Protect or Detect, though of course only a handful (usually tanks) are going to actually use the move. For this reason alone, Feint is nigh useless in the single battles competition. What makes it completely useless is that (as brought up many times before) too many Pokemon are hitting a lot harder than ever before, making tanking Pokemon not as useful as they once were, reducing their numbers to a handful, and these Pokemon have no room for Protect in a movepool that has already proven itself in the R/S/E generation.

However, what about Double battles? I think that with the ever-prevalent "Explode once guy once he's done doing whatever he's doing, and have his partner use protect" strategy is extremely overused to the point where it's almost a guarantee to be on any team specifically designed for Double battles, and especially on Trick Room teams it can be extremely powerful in such a speed-oriented metagame. As such, do you think that Feint has a place in the double battle environment? Unfortunately because of the defense modifier on Explosion, only a steel, rock, or Ghost type could be safely recommended to use Feint and survive, but if predicted correctly, it could devastate your opponent's strategy and possibly be a deciding factor in the match. As with most prediction, it's a high-risk, high-reward situation, but I think it can be really effective, especially on, say, Lucario? I dunno.

I think in summation, it would've been perfect if Feint was a move that could be used regardless of whether or not your opponent was using Protect/Detect, and if they were it would break it and the base power of the move would double or even triple. As it stands, it's pretty much useless.

Sorry for the long read, and I hope that my near-essay didn't ruin any chance of discussion, but I want to see what people think. Do you agree? Disagree? Post what you think.

 

[Easton]

Not only that, but Feint would be able to nerf all of the Anti-Breloom leads that are being used right now, so I could see it being run as a surprise on leading Lucario sets

 

[Deck Knight]

Feint is still a pathetic 50 Base Power and Normal type. Considering most of the things that use Protect are bulky pokemon like Vaporeon and Swampert, it barely beast out thier Leftovers Recovery.

Here are a few things that would have made Feint worthy of use:

150 Base Power.
Dealing half damage when pokemon doesn't Protect/Detect.
Hitting a pokemon behind a Substitute.

If those 3 things were implemented, Feint would see use. As it stands, Feint can't even 2HKO Protect Ninjask, so it is utterly, utterly pointless.

 

[Misty]

Way to not even think at all, Deck Knight.

The point of Feint isn't the damage - it's strategic. Saying it's useless because it only does 50BP is like saying Knock Off is useless because it's only 20BP or whatever, when the latter is obviously an excellent move.

As far as Feint goes, the general idea is that, if a Pokemon is using Protect, it's trying to avoid Surf/Earthquake/Explosion/Discharge used by its partner, or possible something used by the Feinter's partner. When you use Feint, they've not only wasted a turn, they're a sitting duck for whatever is coming next.

 

[Yoshi King]

Way to not even think at all, Deck Knight.

The point of Feint isn't the damage - it's strategic. Saying it's useless because it only does 50BP is like saying Knock Off is useless because it's only 20BP or whatever, when the latter is obviously an excellent move.

As far as Feint goes, the general idea is that, if a Pokemon is using Protect, it's trying to avoid Surf/Earthquake/Explosion/Discharge used by its partner, or possible something used by the Feinter's partner. When you use Feint, they've not only wasted a turn, they're a sitting duck for whatever is coming next.

Misty hit the nail on the head. (Thanks, Misty! <3)

That's pretty much the reason I suggested a Pokemon with a great defensive typing (Lucario with Steel) as one to use Feint. While Misty did open up the problem that, should your opponent be using something like Discharge or Earthquake, Lucario could be in real trouble (and even then that's just one example, there are tons of different situations) at least in the case of explosion it would be extremely effective. Anything that isn't immune or at the very least, x2 resistant, is likely going to get KO'd... and even then, some Pokemon with a x2 resist would still take significant damage. But in turn, you're KOing both of your opponents' Pokemon pretty much for free. And Explosion is usually easy to predict. (Don't only around...50 Pokemon learn it?)

 

[Footnote]

I can't tell you how pleased I am to see an intelligent discussion about Double Battles. I don't even really have anything of substance to add! As Yoshi King and Misty said, Feint is a strategic move for 2v2 that's next to worthless in 1v1.

Now just put this stuff into action, guys! It's one thing to discuss hypotheticals, but how many of you are seriously considering training a Double Battle team? It's worth the time it takes.

P.S. You guys are awesome.

 

[Yoshi King]

I can't tell you how pleased I am to see an intelligent discussion about Double Battles. I don't even really have anything of substance to add! As Yoshi King and Misty said, Feint is a strategic move for 2v2 that's next to worthless in 1v1.

Now just put this stuff into action, guys! It's one thing to discuss hypotheticals, but how many of you are seriously considering training a Double Battle team? It's worth the time it takes.

P.S. You guys are awesome.

I'm currently training a trick room Double battle team (Now that I'm finally *near* finished my singles team), although I'm not sure if I should make a full six-man team or a simple 4-Pokemon team for PBR.

Personally though, I'm undecided as to whether or not I'll be using Feint. If anything, I'll be having Feint used on my guys, haha.

 

[Easton]

I've already created a hypothetical UU Trick Room team (I've created 5 teams so far for Competitor. My next team will be based on double team Rain Dance

 

[Alysanne]

I'm training a 2v2 Ubers team in anticipation of the next JAA-like event.

In my opinion, Feint isn't that good, even if you are using an Explosion-heavy team. If you're the one using Explosion, having your other pokemon use Feint is... bad mojo to say the least (unless it's a Ghost). If you're opponent is the one using Explosion, and you Feint the non-Exploder, you'll still take an assload when Explosion hits you.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, that in a situation that Feint is usable in, Protecting is, to me, a much better move to use.

Making sure that you're pokemon survive and one of their's dies > having one of your pokemon die and having two opposing ones die.

 

[floppybeef82]

If you're opponent is the one using Explosion, and you Feint the non-Exploder, you'll still take an assload when Explosion hits you.

um, youre going to take an assload of damage when explosion hits you no matter what move you used. if you HAVE protect, you're probably going to use that over feint...but the point of using feint on your opponents non-exploder is so that ITS' protect will be broken, and explosion will destroy it.

 

[Alysanne]

While Explosion destroys your poke as well? 1-2 is not a better trade-off than 0-1 unless they only have 2 pokes left.

The only time Feint is good is the same time as when Protect is good (which is why they're Protecting in the first place). This is 2v2, every damn pokemon is using Protect or is Ghost/Steel type.

 

[Yoshi King]

While Explosion destroys your poke as well? 1-2 is not a better trade-off than 0-1 unless they only have 2 pokes left.

Well, like you mentioned, I think it would be simply assinine to make your Feint-er anything but a Ghost, Steel, Rock, or Steel+Rock type (Like Aggron! <3). Otherwise it WILL be KO'd, and again, as already mentioned, that's just useless unless your opponent has only 1 or 2 Pokemon left anyways.

 

[floppybeef82]

While Explosion destroys your poke as well? 1-2 is not a better trade-off than 0-1 unless they only have 2 pokes left.

The only time Feint is good is the same time as when Protect is good (which is why they're Protecting in the first place). This is 2v2, every damn pokemon is using Protect or is Ghost/Steel type.

im sorry, i didnt know we were assuming every pokemon knew protect.

 

[Alysanne]

Neither Gengar nor Dusknoir learn Feint... In fact, the only Ghost or Steel type to learn Feint that I can find is Lucario which severely limits its playability.

im sorry, i didnt know we were assuming every pokemon knew protect.

It's not an assumption. Everything can, and almost always should run Protect (barring the types that I mentioned earlier, and anything with the Damp ability)

 

[Footnote]

I'm going to posit that trying to abuse Explosion and Earthquake in D/P like in Advance will end poorly. There are a ton of new moves to help stop this kind of strategy and the power of these two moves has been cut by 25% when hitting multiple targets. My experience tells me that you guys are freaking out about an obsolete strategy.

Can Earthquake and Explosion still be useful in 2v2? Yes. Should you be ready for them? Yes. Should you base your entire team around countering them? Certainly not.

Also, not everything in a Double Battle needs Protect. If you try it, you'll feel the sting of those lost moveslots. Consider alternate solutions.

 

[Alysanne]

I'm going to posit that trying to abuse Explosion and Earthquake in D/P like in Advance will end poorly. There are a ton of new moves to help stop this kind of strategy and the power of these two moves has been cut by 25% when hitting multiple targets. My experience tells me that you guys are freaking out about an obsolete strategy.

Can Earthquake and Explosion still be useful in 2v2? Yes. Should you be ready for them? Yes. Should you base your entire team around countering them? Certainly not.

Also, not everything in a Double Battle needs Protect. If you try it, you'll feel the sting of those lost moveslots. Consider alternate solutions.

First off about Protect's usefulness. I've watched all of the JAA finals movies that I can find. The one movie that really stood out to me had the final turn of battle: Solo Ludicolo vs. LSeed'd Mewtwo and Snorlax with Rain Dish activated (and leftovers). Everything is in red health, with Snorlax dying at the end of the turn, and Mewtwo dying at the end of the -next- turn. Ludicolo uses... Oh wait. Mewtwo outsped it and killed it. Why? Because the guy decided that Protect wasn't worth it and decided on more type-coverage (FirePunch for Steels; IMO, that's retarded in and of itself on a rain-dance team anyway, but that's not the point). If Ludicolo had had Protect, that player would have won.

Earthquake has never been amazing in 2v2 because of all the Flyers/Levitaters anyway. Explosion is still going to OHKO most pokes that aren't resistant to it anyway, 75% base power or 100%.

And enlighten me on the ton of new moves that stop this strategy?

 

[floppybeef82]

Ludicolo uses... Oh wait. Mewtwo outsped it and killed it. Why? Because the guy decided that Protect wasn't worth it and decided on more type-coverage (FirePunch for Steels; IMO, that's retarded in and of itself on a rain-dance team anyway, but that's not the point). If Ludicolo had had Protect, that player would have won.

But...Mewtwo outsped the Ludicolo...wouldn't the Mewtwo outspeed the Ludicolo even if it had used Protect? Or does Protect always go first?

 

[Alysanne]

Protect has a priority modifier.

 

[aquasuicune]

Just wondering, doesn't feint have a priority modifier one higher than protect/detect?

 

[Alysanne]

It does. I assume how it works is that after getting hit by Feint (speed priority 2), the pokemon's Protect(speed priority 3) "fails", or something along those lines.

 

[Footnote]

First off about Protect's usefulness. I've watched all of the JAA finals movies that I can find. The one movie that really stood out to me had the final turn of battle: Solo Ludicolo vs. LSeed'd Mewtwo and Snorlax with Rain Dish activated (and leftovers). Everything is in red health, with Snorlax dying at the end of the turn, and Mewtwo dying at the end of the -next- turn. Ludicolo uses... Oh wait. Mewtwo outsped it and killed it. Why? Because the guy decided that Protect wasn't worth it and decided on more type-coverage (FirePunch for Steels; IMO, that's retarded in and of itself on a rain-dance team anyway, but that's not the point). If Ludicolo had had Protect, that player would have won.

Earthquake has never been amazing in 2v2 because of all the Flyers/Levitaters anyway. Explosion is still going to OHKO most pokes that aren't resistant to it anyway, 75% base power or 100%.

And enlighten me on the ton of new moves that stop this strategy?

First of all, your story is what's referred to as 'anecdotal evidence'. Yes, there will always be times when another move that a Pokémon doesn't have would have been more useful. Secondly, last time I checked, Mewtwo wasn't allowed in most real competitive battles around here. I certainly never used it in any of my Advance Double Battles. Finally, if the Ludicolo's trainer had Fire Punch instead of Protect on his Rain Dish Ludicolo, that doesn't exactly indicate that the players above were experts, does it? Protect is a supremely useful move in Double Battles. I was merely arguing against your claim that every Pokémon should run it. Stallers should have it. Fast sweepers shouldn't.

Moreover, do you know what happens if one of your Pokémon regularly stalls with Protect while the other one doesn't? Your opponent gets to focus-fire your non-staller and they have a big advantage. So you have to be careful and clever with your timing on Protect.

I agree that Earthquake isn't that amazing in 2v2, but there are others who seem to believe it is. Most of the new strategies is was referring to were honestly to help counter Earthquake users: Gravity, Trick with Iron Ball, etc. Most of the ways to deal with Exploders are old. The one new one that jumps to mind is the topic of this thread, Feint. The old ones other than Protect, Detect and Endure are, of course, switch to a Rock, Steel or Ghost-type, use Fake Out, focus-fire the Exploder to death, switch to a Damp Pokémon, use a move that gets you out of the way (Dig, Fly, etc.), use Foresight on the Exploder's Ghost-type partner, etc...

Also, the strategy of Double-Exploding no longer works because new Pokémon come in at the very end of the round in D/P.

 

[Alysanne]

Double Exploding was always dumb. :P

Moreover, do you know what happens if one of your Pokémon regularly stalls with Protect while the other one doesn't? Your opponent gets to focus-fire your non-staller and they have a big advantage. So you have to be careful and clever with your timing on Protect.

I'm not advocating retarded use of Protect. :/

First of all, your story is what's referred to as 'anecdotal evidence'. Yes, there will always be times when another move that a Pokémon doesn't have would have been more useful. Secondly, last time I checked, Mewtwo wasn't allowed in most real competitive battles around here. I certainly never used it in any of my Advance Double Battles. Finally, if the Ludicolo's trainer had Fire Punch instead of Protect on his Rain Dish Ludicolo, that doesn't exactly indicate that the players above were experts, does it?

My point exactly. If the guy had been running Protect, we'd be calling him an expert and commending him on his victory.
Also, JAA is what, in my opinion, defines competitive 2v2, and it does not adhere to any of the rules of "here".

Protect is a supremely useful move in Double Battles. I was merely arguing against your claim that every Pokémon should run it. Stallers should have it. Fast sweepers shouldn't.

Fast sweepers can run Protect even if it does weaken their type-coverage. Of course, this only really applies in Ubers since most OU sweepers can be taken down in one strong, SE hit (making Protect not gain any meaningful advantage), while pokes like Mewtwo are sometimes targetted twice.

 

[Footnote]

It's not an assumption. Everything can, and almost always should run Protect (barring the types that I mentioned earlier, and anything with the Damp ability)

I'm not advocating retarded use of Protect. :/

These two statements don't directly contradict each other, but it's pretty darn close. I'm saying that having Protect on every Pokémon severely limits your options. It's generally not a good idea. If your prediction is good, you'll get around your opponent's Protect.

My point exactly. If the guy had been running Protect, we'd be calling him an expert and commending him on his victory.
Also, JAA is what, in my opinion, defines competitive 2v2, and it does not adhere to any of the rules of "here".

Fast sweepers can run Protect even if it does weaken their type-coverage. Of course, this only really applies in Ubers since most OU sweepers can be taken down in one strong, SE hit (making Protect not gain any meaningful advantage), while pokes like Mewtwo are sometimes targetted twice.

OK, help out a 'newb', here. What is JAA and what does it stand for? I've never heard of it. If you're saying that Übers are allowed in 2v2 simply by virtue of it being 2v2, then that has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Overpowered Pokémon are still overpowered in that environment. If this environment 'defines' 2v2, then that needs to change. You don't bow to Nintendo's rules in 1v1. Why wouldn't we have our own rules and tiers for 2v2?

 

[Alysanne]

These two statements don't directly contradict each other, but it's pretty darn close. I'm saying that having Protect on every Pokémon severely limits your options. It's generally not a good idea. If your prediction is good, you'll get around your opponent's Protect.

They don't contradict eachother... Retarded use of Protect =

one of your Pokémon regularly stalls with Protect while the other one doesn't

OK, help out a 'newb', here. What is JAA and what does it stand for? I've never heard of it. If you're saying that Übers are allowed in 2v2 simply by virtue of it being 2v2, then that has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Overpowered Pokémon are still overpowered in that environment. If this environment 'defines' 2v2, then that needs to change. You don't bow to Nintendo's rules in 1v1. Why wouldn't we have our own rules and tiers for 2v2?

Journey Across America. It's an event held by Nintendo. 2v2 everything goes (except Leftovers Wobbofet IIRC (although that will probably change because of Shadow Tag's modification)), Sleep Clause is in effect (once again, IIRC).

Also, overpowered pokemon are not overpowered in a format with other overpowered pokemon. They are average.

And why would we not have our own rules and tiers for 2v2? There's no reason not to, but it's like playing DOTA and then claiming that your good at Warcraft 3.

 

[Footnote]

I never claimed to be good at JAA rules. You're the one who equates it to 2v2 play, by your own admission.

You're right about overpowered Pokémon being average against other overpowered Pokémon. But Ludicolo isn't Über. It's no surprise that Mewtwo blew right through its considerable Sp Defense. Since you're advocating this position, I assume you're also a fan of Übers in 1v1? If not, what's the difference?

It's not my fault that you consider JAA to be standard 2v2. People can play Über 2v2 if they want, but saying it's the de facto standard is strange. We have tiers in 1v1 for a reason: to avoid centralization of the metagame. Tiers in 2v2 are really no different.