The forgotten sibling

Yeah, camperupt and blaziken are also not weak to rock. I was saying that Heatran and Infernape are the only true fire OUs though.

Unless you say Camerupt is a doubles OU, maybe. :/

Poor fire-- got so hosed defensively . . . Guess this is rock's revenge for being utterly laughed at in RBY . . .
 
...wow...who'd have thought Flareon would cause such an uprising...

My only aim here is to make poor, poor Flareon at least BL-worthy...

I'm not stupid; with a movepool like that, I'm not gonna aim for OU...and sure; I'm likely aiming high with my BL-aim, but...

I dunno, I just see potential in the little bugger...
 
I find that people who have to say "I'm not stupid . . ." . . . though we know you're not.

Anyway before talking about Flareon as a BL, I'd at least like to see it as a good UU . . . >_>

Because I mean, even if it's (somewhat) usable as a UU, it's just not as fun/interesting to use as say something like Hitmontop or Dewgong. I guess there's just not much "flare" to it. >_>
 
Swimrunner said:
flareon will still suck even if it gets flare blitz. look at arcanine, barely used despite the fact that it gets flare blitz (along with everything else flareon already has) and has kickass stats.
Click to expand...
In your own world. It's actually a very, very common BL. I'm not joking when I say that I encounter it in 1 in every 5 or 6 fights. I've also seen it do well on standard teams, having access to Extremespeed and an attack stat to back it up.

Arcanine is most often used as a mixed sweeper....Flareon makes way better use of Flash Fire if a prediction god uses it to switch in to a wall that tries to burn it. Actually, it does well against breaking walls that use Burn as their main status. Standard Spiritomb does nothing to it with a high SD and access to Wish, the only ways it can even try to hurt it being Pain Split, but it won't last long if Flareon gets that Flash Fire boost. Blissey, even CM versions, do shit to it. If it had a better movepool, and Flareon screams for Crunch for Cress, it'd do great as a semi-wall breaker against things that rely on special attacks. It also has STAB against Forry and Skarm.
 
ChouToshio said:
I one saw a guy with a sig quote that made me laugh for about 10 minutes:

"Every pokemon is good for something, and has a usable set . . . except Flareon."

LOL/T.T Poor Flareon. I agree with others though that even if it had Flare Blitz the thing would be hosed.

As for Arcanine and his coverage-- he has freaking great coverage. He gets Dragon Pulse + Flare Blitz (or Overheat/Flamethrower), which is the same dual attack type that Salamence relies on. Throw in Thunderfang, the Strongest Priority move (extreme speed), Crunch, Reversal, and whatever Hidden Power you want (Grass anyone?) and his coverage is pretty damn good. Mostly seeing how he has great stats on Special and Physical sides to take advantage of moves on both sides (unlike Flareon who really wishes his physical and special attack were switched).

His Problem (and to a large degree Flare's and Rapidash's problem) is that he's a mono-fire type. :P

No second Stab (Boy does Arcanine wish he were fire/dragon) and weakness to afformentioned ROCK, water and ground weaknesses makes him a permanent bench-sitter despite great stats, coverage, and ability.

BTW-- you notice that every truly OU fire type is not weak to rock? OK, saying "every" isn't all that impressive when there's only two-- heatran and infernape.
Click to expand...
Alright, how about you make a move set that can deal with all of these:

Gyarados
Salamence
Garchomp
Tyranitar
Swampert
Hippowdon
Cresselia
Heatran

All of these are at least half-decent choices to switch into Arcanine depending on your prediction ability, and most of them also really like a turn of set-up. I came up with these as the most logical switch-ins to Arcanine when I was trying to do a move set for it a while back, and came to the conclusion that it can't cover even most of them. No pokemon kills everything, but it needs to be able to hit a fair majority of its most immediate counters to be useful. If you can come up with a set that can realistically take down say... 5 of these, I'd give you a smogon medal of honor because I can't. Let's break down his physical movepool:

- Flare Blitz: Does a shitload to anything not resisting, but all of these minus Hippowdon/Cresselia do - and they aren't at risk of 2HKO by any means.
- Iron Tail: Hits Tyranitar, but a 75% accurate move with one major target is pretty crappy.
- Extreme Speed: It's cool that Arcanine gets this, but without STAB or an attack boost it doesn't actually kill anything aside from weakened/sash/endured targets. Return pretty much fits here in the same fashion.
- Crunch: Hits Cresselia and that's it. There's a reason you don't see this move on Salamence or Garchomp.
- Thunder Fang: Hits Gyarados and that's it.

I could add special moves as well, but his special movepool consists of Overheat/Fire Blast, Dragon Pulse, and Hidden Power, which doesn't require much explanation. See a pattern? Arcanine doesn't get any moves not named Hidden Power/Natural Gift (ok add Dragon Pulse) that can hit more than one guy super effective. No usable Rock or Ground moves leads to crappy type coverage, and don't talk to me about Fire/Dragon. Dragon Pulse isn't killing anything un-STAB'ed.

Arcanine sucks, which I hate because it's one of my favorites and I wanted very badly to make a team based around it, but it can't be done in a functional manner.
 
Originally Posted by Choutoshio

His Problem (and to a large degree Flare's and Rapidash's problem) is that he's a mono-fire type. :P

No second Stab (Boy does Arcanine wish he were fire/dragon) and weakness to afformentioned ROCK, water and ground weaknesses makes him a permanent bench-sitter despite great stats, coverage, and ability.
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Swiftrunner, you're forgetting that I said that Arcanine's PROBLEM is a lack of a second stab to compliment his fire one. So, you can't really say that my arguement is unviable unless you say he'd still be crappy if he were a dragon/fire type.

Assuming Arcanine were a Dragon/Fire type with STAB Draco Meteor:

These calcs assume an even split of 126evs in both stats, Naughty, and Life Orb:

Stab Draco Meteor:

Salamence (0/0)-- lol 160%-190%

Garchomp (0/0)-- More lol 121%-140%

Tyranitar (0/0)-- 65.40% - 76.83% (Chance of 2HKO since Flare Blitze does 30.50% - 36.07%)

Swampert-- (252/0)-- 60.15% - 70.79% (Chance of a 2HKO since on the second round it still gets 30.45% - 35.64%)

Hippowdon-- 69.29% (252/0) - 81.67% (sure fire 2Hko since on the second go it still does 35.00% - 41.19%)

Cresselia (252/0, assuming DEF cresselia): 40.09% - 47.07%
. . . Not terribly pathetic . . .


So under the hypothetical situation that Arcanine was a Dragon/Fire with STAB'd Draco Meteor . . . He could theoretically dish out a shitload to everything on the list as it switches in if it carries:

-Draco Meteor
-Thunder Fang
-Flare Blitz
-Crunch/Hidden Power Ground
(You'd have to make a choice between killing Cress or Heatran . . .)

. . . but even under that hypothetical situation, you probably wouldn't do that. You'd probably do something like this:

-Draco Meteor
-Flare Bitz
-Extreme Speed
-Thunder Fang/Hidden Power something


Otherwise . . . he'll always be a bit sub-OU, like I said . . .

And sorry about the really off-topic tangent about Dragon/fire Arcanine in a thread about Flareon. >_>
 
At least you tried, haha. I like Flareon, the critter's cute, but his movepool isn't great. I'm sure Flareon would totally beast in-game though >.> :P
 
Well, Flail is an egg move for Flareon, so why not use that with endure+ salac? Or give it a toxic orb and facade?

Yeah I know, no stab, but those moves will still hit hard against things that don't resist. It's not like Flareon has a lot of options here. I was about to suggest Natural gift, but to give up your berry for a 1 turn move, neh...
 
Ok, I missed the part talking about a second STAB. Still, that doesn't really change the fact that his movepool sucks as is - if his typing were different it might be workable, but it's not and that's kind of changing parameters a lot (remember arcanine didn't even have a dragon move until this generation). besides you can put draco meteor on half the stuff in the game and make it usable. what if's are rather silly =(
 
I always thought Curse + Quick Attack was fun on Flareon with its decent Sp. Defense in Advance, but with Stealth Rock around it's not going to happen. Even with Fire Fang to get STAB and hit Steels.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, something I remembered.

But doesn't Fire Blast do more damage than Fire Fang with Flareon?
 
Forsety said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, something I remembered.

But doesn't Fire Blast do more damage than Fire Fang with Flareon?
Click to expand...

The problem with that is that Fire blast run's off of Flareon's special attack instead of that awesome base 130 attack.

Wait...I just thought of something...it does have Flash fire...if we put in something weak to fire first, and then switch to Flareon on the switch, you have yourself a fire boost. Then, use endure to get yourself a salac boost. Now you've just given your Flareon a salac and a flash fire boost.
 
Arcanine will finally get Dragon Dance, as Feraligatr did, and it will be at least useful in Standard Game, with Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, Thunder Fang and Extremespeed/Overheat. But with his movepool, and his bad type (poor fires...), he will do nothing. He needs other type, like Dragon or Dark.
About Flareon, if it could get Stone Edge and Flare Blitz, would you use it?. Entei has Stone Edge + Fire Fang, and I don't see him. Maybe with Flare Blitz, Stone Edge, and support moves like Roar and W-o-W the could be used, but...
 
Swimrunner said:
Ok, I missed the part talking about a second STAB. Still, that doesn't really change the fact that his movepool sucks as is - if his typing were different it might be workable, but it's not and that's kind of changing parameters a lot (remember arcanine didn't even have a dragon move until this generation). besides you can put draco meteor on half the stuff in the game and make it usable. what if's are rather silly =(
Click to expand...

Meh, I was JUST talking about the coverage of his movepool. Technically Speaking, Dragon + Fire has great coverage-- and you do have to admit that outside of dragons and legendary pokemon, that attack combo is relatively rare.

Non-dragon, non-legendaries who gets DPulse + Fthrower: Charizard, NidoK/Q, Rhper, Gyara, Aero, Ttar, Aggron, Ramparados, Smeargle.

Toss out the ones that have average-below average sp. ATK and all you have left are:
Arcanine, TTar *edit:* and Charizard. Poor Charizard and Arcanine ;_;

So as you can see, this dual attacking type is relatively rare, and something Arcanine SHOULD be proud of because its a combo with great coverage . . . but lack of stab means he can't really take advantage of it, since dragon should be the primary attack, and without stab it doesn't have enough umph.

And from a logical perspective, if you look at Chinese/Japanese traditions regarding legendary lions/dragons, you'll see that the two are rather connected, and that Arcanine does have a claim to the dragon heratage. Why else do you think it's the only poke on the list I mentioned who gets Dragon Pulse without being scaly and reptilian (or being smeargle . . .)?
 
Charizard's spA is higher than arcanine's actually and he has even more claim to the fire/dragon heritage than the poor doggy does as well. :p Alas 4x weak to SR means that he doesn't see much play except as a niche'd bellydrummer.
 
what about counter? 252 HP with a focus sash, and you'll get at least one KO. :/

there's also body slam. if your lucky enough, paralisis will come into effect and then sweeping is a possibility
 
Fenikkusu said:
Charizard's spA is higher than arcanine's actually and he has even more claim to the fire/dragon heritage than the poor doggy does as well. :p Alas 4x weak to SR means that he doesn't see much play except as a niche'd bellydrummer.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Arcanine is a 2nd stage while 'Zard is 3rd-- meaning one of these has room for an evolution. :naughty:

Also Arcanine has better synergy between Draco Meteor and Flare Blitz that zard does because Arcanine has a more usable ATK even without belly drum. Actually, his synergy between Draco Meteor and Flare Blitz would be so good, it might be too much for OU . . . a Fire/Dragon Arcanine might out perform Salamence, having only slightly less speed and sp.ATK (and extreme speed), better synergy between attacks, double STAB (with a reliable 120 base to use even after draco meteor), same level of weak to SR, same ability . . .

woot, would be godly . . .
 
It'd be funny to see for sure.

I was mainly referring to this though.
Toss out the ones that have average-below average sp. ATK and all you have left are:
Arcanine, TTar
Click to expand...
Since obviously we weren't DQing 3rd stages, cause otherwise Ttar would be gone, Charizard is a qualifier there.
 
Yeah, I noticed that I was wrong and you were right there. I was just being stupid.

I'll go edit my post . . . lol

I do like charizard too. The least they could do would be to give him Draco Meteor + a pseudo stab like, "Ability, Dragon Line: This Pokemon's Dragon attacks get boosted." or something. :P

Or, they could just decrease how much damage freaking SR does to poor fire types. -_-
 
Charizard gets so much shaft for all the dragon hype he gets in the anime and games (lol Ranger?) and yet he's still just a fire/flyer with average stats. :(

Same with Gyara sorta, except he's OU thanks to the split now so water/dragon on him would be completely obscene.
 
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