The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

MoonlightRose said:
Candice in Platinum. Snow Cloak + Double Team + perma-hail.
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For best or worst? I believe it is worst boss fight.

I’ll nominate the whole Hoenn Elite Four minus Steven in original Ruby and Sapphire, and then Wallace in Emerald for Worst Boss Fight. The Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire will not be considered due to improvement of movesets.

I’ll thread out each of them individually and why are they are either bad or unfun. They each rely on the “rare type” which already limits the option they have. It mostly focuses on Ruby and Sapphire for the Elite Four, as I believe this is their rock bottom ranking.
  • Sidney: Dual-type overlap with Cacturne and Shiftry, the latter not even having any STAB attacks and deploy Double Team + Swagger, which is frustrating to deal with. Mightyena may be annoying with Sand Attack, but this can be countered by switching away. His Ace, Absol, does not even have any Dark-type STAB, having only Aerial Ace (which deters Fighting to be fair, alongside Shiftry’s Extrasensory) and Slash.
  • Phoebe: First mistake is having two Dusclops and two Banette, as well as a rather weak Sableye. The species overlaps does have been lessened by much more effective movepool, but that also means common weaknesses for all but Sableye, which means if you have Dark coverage or plain brute force, she’s toast.
  • Glacia: Not only she repeated the same mistake as Phoebe, but her movepools aren’t even that diverse, and offer no coverage beyond vs Fire and Rock through the Sealeo line. Her focus on Hail is nice and all, but that can be negated as Sealeo are too weak to keep up with your own party. One of her Glalie have Explosion in Emerald,
  • Drake: Definitely the most impressive of the four by a large margin, with the only dud is having two Flygon and a weaker Shelgon, but that’s not the biggest problem. In RS, all of his Pokémon are weak to Ice, doubly so for Altaria, his two Flygon and his Salamence. Having Flamethrower on his Salamence and one of his Flygon, and Shelgon carrying Rock Tomb, may deter Ice-type, but it’s no use if it is incoming Ice-type attacks are from Water-type, especially Whiscash and Swampert. Emerald replaces one of his Flygon with Kingdra, and Kingdra managed to stay in ORAS. A tough cookie in comparison of the other three, but still easily taken down if you have an Ice-type move ready, or have freshly caught Rayquaza in Emerald.
  • Wallace (Emerald only): Steven did have a few overlaps of Rock and Steel, but the Pokémon have enough diverse typing that one Pokémon isn’t an answer to all… except Water, but it could have ended worse. Wallace? Almost all of them are weak to either Electric or Grass, with Ludicolo being weak to neither. Even with Earthquake and Ice-type coverage, the player is already prepared to deal with all of the Water-type in Hoenn before, and Wallace may ends up not being so much of an exception. In short, if the player can easily defeat Juan, Wallace will be barely harder.
I might consider Hoenn’s Elite Four in Generation III the weakest if them all, due to many species overlaps for two of them and, in Wallace’s case, not well prepared enough to deal with players who already took care of Water-type specialists so easily. If someone else have a rebuttal, I’m all ears.
 
Samtendo09 said:
For best or worst? I believe it is worst boss fight.

I’ll nominate the whole Hoenn Elite Four minus Steven in original Ruby and Sapphire, and then Wallace in Emerald for Worst Boss Fight. The Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire will not be considered due to improvement of movesets.

I’ll thread out each of them individually and why are they are either bad or unfun. They each rely on the “rare type” which already limits the option they have. It mostly focuses on Ruby and Sapphire for the Elite Four, as I believe this is their rock bottom ranking.
  • Sidney: Dual-type overlap with Cacturne and Shiftry, the latter not even having any STAB attacks and deploy Double Team + Swagger, which is frustrating to deal with. Mightyena may be annoying with Sand Attack, but this can be countered by switching away. His Ace, Absol, does not even have any Dark-type STAB, having only Aerial Ace (which deters Fighting to be fair, alongside Shiftry’s Extrasensory) and Slash.
  • Phoebe: First mistake is having two Dusclops and two Banette, as well as a rather weak Sableye. The species overlaps does have been lessened by much more effective movepool, but that also means common weaknesses for all but Sableye, which means if you have Dark coverage or plain brute force, she’s toast.
  • Glacia: Not only she repeated the same mistake as Phoebe, but her movepools aren’t even that diverse, and offer no coverage beyond vs Fire and Rock through the Sealeo line. Her focus on Hail is nice and all, but that can be negated as Sealeo are too weak to keep up with your own party. One of her Glalie have Explosion in Emerald,
  • Drake: Definitely the most impressive of the four by a large margin, with the only dud is having two Flygon and a weaker Shelgon, but that’s not the biggest problem. In RS, all of his Pokémon are weak to Ice, doubly so for Altaria, his two Flygon and his Salamence. Having Flamethrower on his Salamence and one of his Flygon, and Shelgon carrying Rock Tomb, may deter Ice-type, but it’s no use if it is incoming Ice-type attacks are from Water-type, especially Whiscash and Swampert. Emerald replaces one of his Flygon with Kingdra, and Kingdra managed to stay in ORAS. A tough cookie in comparison of the other three, but still easily taken down if you have an Ice-type move ready, or have freshly caught Rayquaza in Emerald.
  • Wallace (Emerald only): Steven did have a few overlaps of Rock and Steel, but the Pokémon have enough diverse typing that one Pokémon isn’t an answer to all… except Water, but it could have ended worse. Wallace? Almost all of them are weak to either Electric or Grass, with Ludicolo being weak to neither. Even with Earthquake and Ice-type coverage, the player is already prepared to deal with all of the Water-type in Hoenn before, and Wallace may ends up not being so much of an exception. In short, if the player can easily defeat Juan, Wallace will be barely harder.
I might consider Hoenn’s Elite Four in Generation III the weakest if them all, due to many species overlaps for two of them and, in Wallace’s case, not well prepared enough to deal with players who already took care of Water-type specialists so easily. If someone else have a rebuttal, I’m all ears.
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Funny how that works...

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Best: Hoenn E4 Rematches (ORAS)
This E4 already got a non-negligible glowup in the main story with cross-gen evo incorporation and gigachad Steven Stone re-asserting his dominance, but the rematches are on a whole different level. There's really not much to say, each member having super strong 6 Pokemon squads is a very cool postgame challenge on its own, but what puts them over the top into greatness IMO is the decision to have each of them show off a unique Mega Evolution. That's just plain cool, yo.
 
I finished Omega Ruby, so here's my best/worst from that game. Keep in mind, I didn't bother with anything after the Delta Episode, so that means no E4 rematches, sorry Yung Dramps.

Best: Steven
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The only fight in the game that actually sort of challenged me a little. His team is solid, if a bit under-leveled with the EXP Share on, and Mega Metagross is actually scary, which made for a satisfying enough battle even if he doesn't compare to the pre-gen 6 champions in terms of challenge. Also his theme is cool as fuck.

Worst: Zinnia
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The first time you fight her, she's really easy because she only has 3 Pokémon and they're weaker than Steven's team. Then, you fight her again with a slightly more menacing team, but this time you have Mega Rayquaza, so you can literally just click Dragon Pulse 5 times and that's the fight. Lame. Now, in this game, two lame fights aren't enough to push a boss to worst for me. That happened because of Zinnia's character. I don't want this post to be five paragraphs longer, but the short version is that the Delta Episode blows more than a college freshman and Zinnia is a big reason for that. It's a shame that there's very little to do after the Delta Episode except rematch the E4 and fight in the Battle Maison (and catch legendary Pokémon I guess), because that was a disappointing conclusion to OR/AS's story.

Other Worst: Courtney
VSCourtney.png

Younger TME had the hots for Courtney, and it turns out that's the only reason I remember her, because she's very forgettable. You fight her way too many times for her to only have one Pokémon that can be swiftly dispatched with a click of any Water move. She's a speedbump at best, which is disappointing for one of like three named Team Magma characters.
 
(Sorry for the bump, I just wanted to get this off my chest)

If we're counting spinoffs, my favorite would be between Leon, Eternamax, and Dark Matter, though I think I'm hanging more towards Dark Matter. As for the worst, Ultra Necrozma. Seriously, in my eyes the only good thing about that battle is the music. Besides that, he's up there with Disciple Lorithia and Young Xehanort as part of the top 5 worst bosses I've ever faced.
 
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First gyms in Pokemon are usually no big deal, with typings that have easily exploitable weaknesses that result in easy victories. Hell, in the first 4 gens alone 3 of the 4 first gyms were Rock type. It's understandable why the first gyms are designed to be easy, they're essentially the tutorial gyms and meant to ease the player into the game, yet I'm of the belief that you don't have to skip on difficulty to be an effective teacher. Enter, Cheren.

On the surface, Cheren looks to be a pretty simple fight. He's a Normal specialist, so no fear of super-effective damage here, and he has only two mons, Patrat and Lillipup, levels 11 and 13, respectively. Furthermore, they share the exact same moveset: Work Up, Tackle, and Bite. However, that first move should give you pause for thought: Work Up is a setup move, boosting the user's Attack and Special Attack by one stage (although, for the purposes of this battle it might as well be just a +1 to Attack). With this, even the lowly Patrat can become a considerable threat after a few boosts, but it's really Lillipup you should be afraid of: I've mentioned before how Lillipup is a beast early-game, and with Cheren's coming with setup, an Oran Berry, and a considerably high level, this fight can get ugly very fast. You can very easily find yourself facing off a Lillipup at +2 outspeeding everything and ohkoing your team with STAB Tackle.

You might think to yourself at this point, "ok well I'll just grab the designated Rock or Fighting type to hand Cheren's uptight keester to him." That's where you're wrong. There is no Normal-resistant Pokémon available before you battle Cheren, and the only Fighting type, Riolu, had its Fighting STAB moved from level 11 in BW1 to level 15 in BW2. How troll. Technically level 15 isn't that absurd as it's only two levels above Cheren's ace, but with lack of access to Audino grinding at this point in the game, and Riolu being kinda weak pre-Fighting STAB, you shouldn't really be trying to grind a lot for this fight.

So with the obvious solution thrown out the window, how are you expected to win this battle? The most straightforward answer would be to simply slug it out. With the proper item usage (Alder gives you Oran Berries before this fight for a reason) you can generally withstand Cheren's assault using a strong, high leveled Pokemon. Typically this is gonna be your starter, as Tepig and Oshawott have the strength and bulk to go toe to toe with Cheren (forget about Snivy's weak ass lmfao), but there are other options beyond this. Ironically, your own Lillipup can contend here, since Lillipup is a damage beast, and a special shout-out goes to Sewaddle. Maybe an unassuming Mon at first glance, but it has naturally high defense and its STAB Bug Bite is one of, if not the, strongest moves at this point in the game.

Simply spamming damage moves and potions isn't your only recourse, however. With few better options, status moves are a legitimate, and good, choice to neuter Cheren's fighting prowess. Like before, you have a couple contenders outside of the basic Growl/Leer/whatever. Mareep can spam Paralysis with Thunder Wave (and, in a pinch, Static), slowing Lillipup to a crawl and potentially stealing away crucial turns. Azurill has Charm, tanking Lillipup's Attack faster than Work Up can restore it, leaving it hitting like a wet noodle. Finally, despite being unable to hit Lillipup with a Fighting STAB, Riolu does have a Fighting attack it can deploy against it: Counter. This is a inherently riskier option, since it relies on your ability to correctly Predict when Cheren will choose to attack instead of boost, but the reward is a one-shot Lillipup, which is something no other Pokemon can boast.

Cheren isn't as straightforward as other gyms. You can't just go "ok well I have the mon that does 4x damage to their entire team lul" and call it a day, you have to consider how you're gonna go about beating him, and I think that makes Cheren a much more valuable "tutorial" gym than the others. Even with the simplest approach to this gym, slugfesting with your starter, you're being taught about item usage and setup moves, and other strats will teach you the value of using status moves to cripple a strong opponent (although this has limited practicality for the rest of the this game but hey, it will prepare you well for gen 7). Those are valuable things for a new player to learn, and for returning players you still have the challenge of a relatively difficult fight as far as early game goes. Because of this, I think Cheren is one of the best boss fights both in BW2 and Pokemon in general
 
pokemon4eva said:
The fight with Flint is worse now lmaoooo how could they made that happen? Easy.

Minimize Baton Pass Drifblim. Evasion is just fake difficulty. Pretty sure no one liked Double Team Rest Kingdra from Juan so I really wonder why did they do this...
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Well… That is a huge nope from me.

Luck-modifying battles in general is fake difficulty, especially worse against something that involve some sort of stall.
 
Up against Cynthia in BDSP right now, and she is brutal in terms of difficulty, and it comes down to the Milotic. I’ve been using an Abomasnow and Grass Knot, which does…about half (it’s only Level 59), and in the four times I’ve made it to her, she’s done the following after a Grass Knot:
- Switch to Lucario
- Stay in, leading me to switch to a different Pokémon, then switch into Gastrodon when I try using an Electric move after it heals
- Switch to Roserade
- Just stay in
The Milotic can really play mindgames with you and forces you to predict switches or risk losing the upper hand. Her Spiritomb can also either switch or stay in, and if you don’t deal with the Lucario before it sets up it can rip you a new one.

On the flip side, BDSP Flint is just a scumbag. Wide Lens Hypnosis and Baton Pass Minimize? Really?
 
SwampySwampert said:
Up against Cynthia in BDSP right now, and she is brutal in terms of difficulty, and it comes down to the Milotic. I’ve been using an Abomasnow and Grass Knot, which does…about half (it’s only Level 59), and in the four times I’ve made it to her, she’s done the following after a Grass Knot:
- Switch to Lucario
- Stay in, leading me to switch to a different Pokémon, then switch into Gastrodon when I try using an Electric move after it heals
- Switch to Roserade
- Just stay in
The Milotic can really play mindgames with you and forces you to predict switches or risk losing the upper hand. Her Spiritomb can also either switch or stay in, and if you don’t deal with the Lucario before it sets up it can rip you a new one.

On the flip side, BDSP Flint is just a scumbag. Wide Lens Hypnosis and Baton Pass Minimize? Really?
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If you use a STAB move against Cynthia on the first turn your Pokémon's out, she's practically guaranteed to switch for a resist (assuming she has a non-fainted resist).

At least, that's what I noticed with my 7 teams.
 
Siggu said:
If you use a STAB move against Cynthia on the first turn your Pokémon's out, she's practically guaranteed to switch for a resist (assuming she has a non-fainted resist).

At least, that's what I noticed with my 7 teams.
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Switching for STAB/SE moves isn’t unusual, but what sets it apart imo is that she can switch to different Pokémon, and really punish you if, say, I tried to predict for Roserade and went for an Ice move only for her to send in Lucario instead.
 
SwampySwampert said:
Switching for STAB/SE moves isn’t unusual, but what sets it apart imo is that she can switch to different Pokémon, and really punish you if, say, I tried to predict for Roserade and went for an Ice move only for her to send in Lucario instead.
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Hmmm... well, the problem is that both Roserade and Lucario resist Grass, which reduces predictability.
 
SwampySwampert said:
Up against Cynthia in BDSP right now, and she is brutal in terms of difficulty, and it comes down to the Milotic. I’ve been using an Abomasnow and Grass Knot, which does…about half (it’s only Level 59), and in the four times I’ve made it to her, she’s done the following after a Grass Knot:
- Switch to Lucario
- Stay in, leading me to switch to a different Pokémon, then switch into Gastrodon when I try using an Electric move after it heals
- Switch to Roserade
- Just stay in
The Milotic can really play mindgames with you and forces you to predict switches or risk losing the upper hand. Her Spiritomb can also either switch or stay in, and if you don’t deal with the Lucario before it sets up it can rip you a new one.

On the flip side, BDSP Flint is just a scumbag. Wide Lens Hypnosis and Baton Pass Minimize? Really?
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My move was Leech Seed, let her faint my Roserade, then proceed to set up calm minds forever with a Big Root equipped. Leech Seed+Burn wears through the health pretty quickly, forcing Recover/Full Restore, while Leech Seed off of Milotic's HP will keep you up forever. Even crits weren't a real threat.
 
Hugin said:
My move was Leech Seed, let her faint my Roserade, then proceed to set up calm minds forever with a Big Root equipped. Leech Seed+Burn wears through the health pretty quickly, forcing Recover/Full Restore, while Leech Seed off of Milotic's HP will keep you up forever. Even crits weren't a real threat.
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I ended up sort of doing this, but in a different way. Used Luxray and Spark to bait out Gastrodon, switched to Mismagius for the immunity, realized Rock Tomb was doing less than Substitute, boosted up to +6 and won.
 
A probably useful caveat of Cynthia's AI is that, if you start setting up in front of Spiritomb or Milotic, she'll often end up spamming Sucker Punch or Mirror Coat, respectively, in return.

You know, the moves in their movesets that won't deter you from setting up.
 
Finished BD/SP's main story a while ago, which means it's that time again. Keep a few things in mind as I spew my opinions all over your computer screen:

-I was playing on Switch mode for this entire game.
-I haven't done any of the rematches yet.
-I tilt very easily when playing Pokémon, which may influence my judgements.

Here we go.

Best: Volkner
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Despite his D/P team, Volkner's fight is pretty good. His two Electrics cover their weaknesses well, the Ambipom set is great, and Octillery exists I guess. I mostly appreciate Volkner because they managed to make his D/P team into something decently challenging and interesting without resorting to cheesy nonsense and while keeping it pretty reasonable to overcome. I broke a sweat while fighting Volkner, but he wasn't a huge wall, which is probably my ideal Pokémon difficulty.

Worst: Flint
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Rapidash with Wide Lens Hypnosis, and a Drifblim that can Baton Pass evasion to an Infernape with Focus Sash. Fuck this game.

Best and Worst: Cynthia
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Here's an interesting one. I'm torn on Cynthia in this game. On one hand, she's the hardest fight in the game while using zero RNG-based strategies, which I respect a lot. On the other hand, I think they overdid it. She was a pretty big wall, at least for me, and I only won as quickly as I did because I got a comically large number of affection clutches in my winning run. Without those, I'm not sure if I could have won without downing the whole medicine cabinet, and while I'm not above doing that I still don't like it. At least she managed to escape being free with all the help BD/SP gives you that gen 4 doesn't. That would've been really depressing.
 
One fight that might be kind of underrated is Raihan. The fact that he actually makes some decent attempts at team synergy rather than just having matching types is super cool, and while I do feel his team would have been much more impressive with a better sand abuser like Excadrill, this is certainly a step in the right direction! I hope to see more fights like this is the future.
 
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This is the team of the random employee who helps out Faba in the Multi Battle during the Rainbow Rocket takeover. It does only one thing, and I find that completely hilarious. It also fits pretty well with Faba being a glory hound, since he's going to be doing the actual KOing.

As for what brought this guy and his one trick scrafty to my attention, well there's this part of my current playthrough of this segment:
Lvl 71 252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. Lvl 61 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scrafty in Harsh Sunshine: 169-199 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
(I sure hope this is enough time for a double-post)

A lot's been said about the stronger movesets of the leaders and E4 of BDSP, but I'd like to draw some attention to the rival fights. Unlike the original games, Barry makes use of held items and TM moves. What makes this really interesting is that the devs kept in mind that he is doing pretty much the same journey as the player, so these items and TMs are nearly always restricted to what the player could have had access to at that point:

He uses nothing special in the first fight.
In the second fight (first hearthome visit), he uses the Stealth Rock and Grass Knot TMs from the first two gyms, as well as Pluck obtained in Floaroma Town.
In the third fight (Pastoria), he gets a set of held items: quick claw (obtained in Jubilife), Miracle Seed (Floaroma Meadow), Shell Bell (Hearthome City), and a mistake I found with Sea Inscence (route 204, but requiring surf). He uses no new TMs
In the fourth fight (Canalave), he swaps the Miracle Seed for a Big Root (Route 214), and runs Brine (Pastoria gym), Thief (Eterna City with Cut) and, if using Monferno, Shadow Claw (Hearthome Gym)
He uses no new TMs or items in the multi battle at Mt. Coronet
At the League, he now has Rock Slide on Heracross (Mt. Coronet) and Poison Jab on Rapidash (route 212 with Surf), as well as a Focus Sash and Expert Belt, both possible daily rewards from the house on route 221. If using Torterra, it has leftovers, which are found in victory road, though unfortunately in the postgame section.
 
Ironmage said:
(I sure hope this is enough time for a double-post)

A lot's been said about the stronger movesets of the leaders and E4 of BDSP, but I'd like to draw some attention to the rival fights. Unlike the original games, Barry makes use of held items and TM moves. What makes this really interesting is that the devs kept in mind that he is doing pretty much the same journey as the player, so these items and TMs are nearly always restricted to what the player could have had access to at that point:

He uses nothing special in the first fight.
In the second fight (first hearthome visit), he uses the Stealth Rock and Grass Knot TMs from the first two gyms, as well as Pluck obtained in Floaroma Town.
In the third fight (Pastoria), he gets a set of held items: quick claw (obtained in Jubilife), Miracle Seed (Floaroma Meadow), Shell Bell (Hearthome City), and a mistake I found with Sea Inscence (route 204, but requiring surf). He uses no new TMs
In the fourth fight (Canalave), he swaps the Miracle Seed for a Big Root (Route 214), and runs Brine (Pastoria gym), Thief (Eterna City with Cut) and, if using Monferno, Shadow Claw (Hearthome Gym)
He uses no new TMs or items in the multi battle at Mt. Coronet
At the League, he now has Rock Slide on Heracross (Mt. Coronet) and Poison Jab on Rapidash (route 212 with Surf), as well as a Focus Sash and Expert Belt, both possible daily rewards from the house on route 221. If using Torterra, it has leftovers, which are found in victory road, though unfortunately in the postgame section.
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I am going to be utterly fucking livid if stuff like this doesn't continue into SV and beyond. They can't allow the best boss design in the series to be forever shackled to BDSP. It would be downright shameful.
 
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