Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up.
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Pokémon Tapu Lele
- Thread starter HailFall
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What does modest scarf beat that timid scarf can't?
Just did some basic calcs for the things Tapu Lele struggles against:
Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest: 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 224-264 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Celesteela: 156-184 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest: 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Celesteela: 170-202 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Modest: 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Conversely, timid outspeeds Jolly Pheromosa (obvs a huge threat), Timid Mega Alakazam, Jolly Mega Aerodactyl, +1 Adamant Mega Charizard X, +2 Modest Magearna (not a check regardless), +1 Kommo-o, Scarf Kyurem-Black (outspeeds Adamant, ties with Jolly), +1 Adamant Mega Sharpedo etc
I took a look at the learn-pool and the only move they has for Type-coverage are Shadow-Ball (Ghosts) and Focus Blast (Steel). The Psyhic STAB would already take care of poison, so would the following be a decent offensive set?
Hasty/ 252 EVs for Special Attack and Speed each and 4 EVs in HP
-Psychic
-Moonblast / Dazzling Gleam
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
Item: Scarf/Specs or Terrain Extender
Hasty/ 252 EVs for Special Attack and Speed each and 4 EVs in HP
-Psychic
-Moonblast / Dazzling Gleam
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
Item: Scarf/Specs or Terrain Extender
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Shadow Ball is not used to cover Ghost types. Under Psychic terrain, Psychic actually hits Ghost types harder than Shadow Ball does (thanks to the STAB & terrain boost).
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 187-222 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 148-176 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Shadow Ball is largely used to hit psychic + steel types (such as Mega Metagross, Jirachi, etc). Now that Aegislash is banned, it is no longer as necessary as before (but still a nice option to have). Personally, I do not think Focus Blast offers reliable coverage (not even considering accuracy) on Tapu Lele in the current metagame. Many of the best steel types that wall Tapu Lele have a secondary typing that resists fighting (Celesteela, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, Jirachi, etc). Because of this, I find it is often preferable to use moves like HP Fire, Thunderbolt, or Shadow Ball to hit these threats.
Edit: Also, I'm not sure why you're running Hasty over Timid. 0 attack IVs + Timid is preferred on special attackers as it minimizes damage from Foul Play and self-hits from confusion. Also, those 4 extra EVs are generally better spent increasing your special defense. The difference is negligible but (AFAIK) Tapu Lele naturally has a stealth rocks-friendly HP stat so you will likely gain more utility in the marginally increased special defense bulk.
I see, thanks for the Advice.
The nature is due to being what I already have from a different file (long story, but lets just say I can soft reset for another for the cart for a Timid one). Would Nature's Madness (for wallbreaking) work in place of Focus Blast?
It's generally believed that Tapu Lele's best set right now is choiced with either specs or scarf. Because of this, Nature's Madness does not seem like a very appealing option (as being locked into a move that can never kill is quite inefficient). You might run the move on a Leftovers support set but I feel that set is much less viable than the offensive sets. The move does not really make sense on a Life Orb set either as any of its coverage attacks would likely do more than 50% when fired off of a base 130 special attack stat boosted by Life Orb (and possibly Psychic Terrain).
If your team struggles against steel types, I would strongly suggest running HP Fire. If you struggle particularly with Celesteela, Thunderbolt is a very strong option as well. It seems like this is for an in-game team and I understanding attempting to get HP Fire IVs on legendaries without hacking is difficult; thus, Thunderbolt might be the most reasonable choice for you. Just understand that you will need team support to help you deal with threats such as Ferrothorn and Magnezone.
Finally, I suggest carefully re-reading the OP as there is a lot of information listed there that I suspect you might find helpful.
Small nitpick, but Nature's Madness CAN kill. However, the opposing mom MUST be at 1 HP for Nature's Madness to kill. I still think it's a terrible move to be choices into, it's just a small nitpick (Source: Tapu Lele SRs trying to get Modest + HP Fire)
Okay after looking at the OP, I decided to use a Timid one with either Calm Mind or Wallbreaker sets. But I want to know if its okay to ask for help with teambuilding with this pokemon here before I continue. I have an idea for a Battle Tree team after Bank updates.
Well if you put it into perspective if you skill swap: Psychic terrain gets reset, you gain the enemies ability, and you remove the original ability of the enemy. That's 2 good things and potential 3. Even if you don't get something good for you are most likely taking away something good from the enemy as well.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned as much here is how well Psychic terrain benefits the faster more frail mons that before disliked priority. Dealing with bullet punch, extreme speed, aqua jet, and so on just got a lot easier, so Lele is worth considering as a teammate for these frailer faster mons.
It has nothing that can safely switch in against it besides SpD invested Celesteela unless the Tapu Lele user doesn't predict the switch. It is kind of slow but with a Scarf it is fast enough to do what it needs to. If you have a Tapu Lele on your team it is very unlikely that the match will end without the Pokemon getting at least one kill. If the other team runs out of Psychic resists it can sweep pretty easily. The argument behind banning it is similar to the one against Aegislash in that way.
I may have missed something but that is the gist. Traditionally a Pokemon with no reliable counters and few checks ends up in Ubers. Special Defense Celesteela gives it a lot of trouble but not every team wants to run Celesteela just for Tapu Lele.
From the research thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokemon-sun-moon-battle-mechanics-research.3586701/
"Psychic Terrain blocks priority status and damaging moves on a grounded target. Self-targetting status moves like Calm Mind are not blocked along with field effects like Tailwind. Additionally, Prankster boosted Perish Song is blocked on all other Pokemon except the user while Psychic Terrain is up (squirrelboyVGC). (ih8ih8sn0w) Psychic Terrain does not block Pursuit if the target attempts to switch out (UltiMario) Psychic Terrain only works on positive priority moves (those greater than +0) and not any negative priority moves despite them being boosted by abilities, such as Prankster. (squirrelboyVGC) Nature Power tuns into Psychic, Secret power drops Speed by 1. (UltiMario)"
Disclaimer, I don't have a strong opinion on Tapu Lele right now, leaning towards not broken. Even then, it is objectively a pretty restraining mon on teambuilding and I can't understand how its presence would make the meta MORE diverse than a meta without it.
Thanks
lol I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around people wanting to ban this thing. I guess it's a natural reaction to the nail that sticks up or whatever, but come on...choiced psychic stab is laughably easy to play around, and its moonblast is great coverage but not exactly game breaking. Oh no, priority has a counter...big whoop.
Wait, so, if its counters are down, it can sweep? Excuse me while I call cnn to report this clear and present danger to our nation
Not stating any pro or anti ban arguments here, but just gonna say that diversity isn't always a good thing. ORAS had too much diversity and a lot of games were won our lost from the matchup. I think Gen 7 is at a good diversity level compared to that.
i know this is obvious to anyone but a huge downside to Lele is giving your enemy Megagross/zam a massive powerboost using it against you:
+1 252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 170-201 (60.4 - 71.5%)
(+1 = Psychic Terrain)
+1 252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 170-201 (60.4 - 71.5%)
(+1 = Psychic Terrain)
Or use them yourself and reinvent Birdspam. :P
MegaGross' Zen Headbutt is the same base power as Reckless HJK from Mienshao thanks to Lele. Just, you know, no huge detriment if miss/Protect and far bulkier / faster / stronger lol.
Physical bulk on Lele is a shame though, it almost makes me want to run a Bold set ._.
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Going by the OP I'm assuming Modest is the nature of choice in 95% of sets?
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