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Welcome to the SV ZU Viability Rankings. In this thread, Pokemon are ranked based on their ability to function within the ZU Metagame. This includes many factors, such as versatility, effectiveness, ability to handle metagame trends, size of niche, and several others. Since these are likely to be highly contested, there are a few rules to abide by:
Post reasoning. Posts like ‘Tropius should go to B because it has Harvest’ will be deleted and possibly infracted. You are expected to give sound logic for the nominations you make. Any one-liners will be deleted and possibly infracted.
Be civil. It doesn’t matter how heavily you disagree with a post, at the end of the day it’s an opinion posted by another person so throwing insults at them isn’t gonna be okay.
No discussion of future bans, suspects, or metagames. We aren’t gonna raise something because may drop or a change may happen in a future metagame, no matter how likely it is.
If you want to nominate a currently unranked Pokemon to be ranked, replays are a requirement. Preferably, these are replays against high level players so that you really show us that this Pokemon can put in work.
At the same time, do not base your entire argument around replays and usage statistics. It’s important to show why this Pokemon performs viability, not just that it is used.
I have a little time to kill and an unending desire to refresh forums, so might as well post vr noms
and then i ran out of time to kill outside of my sleep schedule so sorry if the 'i misread that so im overexplaining it' that kicked in 2 hrs ago comes up here
also i have too many opinions and not enough experience lol
B -> A (or A+)
Def inspired by Havocknight's np post, but this mon is criminally underrated. Typhlosion is the type of mon you see on the other side the exact moment you realize that your ground type isn't a fire resist. The only fire resists in any of the the A ranks are Snorlax, Qwilfish, Bruxish (lol), and Regirock. Bro punches holes through everything and should be higher. Kinda loses to hazards without boots, but typhlosion teams don't need it to come in more than a couple in a game and usually have appropriate hazard control anyways.
B- -> B
Charizard is the tier's only defensive fire. If you need an coil Orthworm check that hit steel types without dying to body press or tera ghost, Zard is kinda the only option. It has some neat traits that I feel are more fitting of a B-tier mon, even if they are a bit niche. Not sold on this but I think it's at least worth discussing
B- -> B
Bro is very bulky and serves as a nice spdef wall. It has recovery and is pretty good at not dying, and can fight back with Download and boltbeam. Kind of unproven, but I think it is a more legitimate pick in the meta than B-.
B -> B-
Was really good (aka b tier) in unburden meta for walling basically all the unburden mon's stabs, and although helmet + recover + wisp is good enough utility, i'm not sure it is as valuable now as it was then, since there are not 3 hard-to-stop physical attackers making grookey viable rn
B -> B+
I feel like, of all the mons in B not named Typhlosion, these two offer the most to a team. They're more in line with the niche-but-viable special attackers of B+ to me like Eggy, Claw, and Ori-fire, than the stuff like Veluza, brav, and poli in B tier. With scarf, they both outspeed Brux, and they also have nice typings, since grass beats non-tera trode and ghost isn't too common. Their other sets (something with synthesis and some setup thing) are probably more representative of their viability than scarf sets, but you can't discount scarf either.
B+ -> B
Idk, I feel like magneton is not the electric I want to pick on my team most of the time. In a tier full of threats that are easy to chip down, the one that gets chipped by hazards via not running boots and is likely to want to switch into a pivoting move is not the one I want. It also can't really hit any of the mons that want to switch into a volt, since its coverage is tera blast and flash cannon.
A- -> down
Weezing was definitely A- in terrain meta, but it's a phys wall that loses to Bruxish (i still think it isn't broken somehow), which is one of the more important mons to wall on the physical side. And if not bruxish, what's it walling? A snorlax with immunity/rest to shrug off poison/burn? A coil mon? It probably could pull something with wisp + haze + helm + levitate, but I genuinely have not seen this mon since terrain was unbanned. If I want a physdef poison, I'm probably taking the one immune to psychic anyways. Not sure how low it should go, but I feel like its offerings are similar to Sableye, minus the recovery. (adding this because I used terrible examples, since wisp+haze+bomb+split probably wall the mons i mentioned, but 2 of them can shrug off status, and the weezing player is hoping the phys mon doesn't switch so that the phys attacker keeps getting chipped, which does not work if they switch)
A -> S (or A+ ig, assuming it isn't banned first)
The one thing I'm getting from the suspect is that Bruxish kinda says a lot in the builder. It's not to the point where you casually make teams that hard lose to Bruxish like Typhlosion since you probably have a grass type thanks to trode, but you wouldn't run, say, a weezing that loses to PsyFangs, and you totally would pick up a tera dark Toxicroak/Deucidueye to deal with it.
A- -> A+
This mon is deadly, and can claim unprepared teams. Sd+sucker punch sets are very viable rn, and you could find a defensive check that wants to take a triple arrows, but then gets haxxed out of a perfectly winnable scenario because you wouldn't dare run covert cloak on ladder when boots/evio are right there. (i may have lost a game or 2 to this)
(or hard sun) UR -> C
geez i shouldn't nom this with no experience outside of watching maybe 2 replays, but if typhlosion capitalizes on having few fire resists in the tier, and if victreebel is on the VR, surely this mon is at least worth a C on the vr
UR -> C
This is one I should have replays for since the calcs do not prove my point, my bad, but I still find it hard to believe that Haunter isn't ranked with 115 spa and 95 spe. With Scarf, it outspeeds the things you want to hit with Shadow Ball like Bruxish and Mesprit, Sludge Bomb to hit grasses, room for a 3rd coverage move like focus blast or gleam, and trick to cripple a wall that would otherwise be OK with a shadow ball to the face. It is very sucker punch weak, but it lives a +2 deu-h sucker punch with a resisted tera. And if something chipped pulls a tera fairy mid-game, you have a fast poison-type check!
Decidueye (you win if you tera and they don't, but why would they tera dark on a 45def haunter?):
252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye-Hisui: 284-336 (89.5 - 105.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (sludge wave is a guarantee)
252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye-Hisui: 284-336 (74.9 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (wave is 2hko too)
252 SpA Tera Fairy Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tera Dark Decidueye-Hisui: 252-296 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Tera Dark Decidueye-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fighting Haunter: 191-225 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Decidueye-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fighting Haunter: 127-150 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mesprit (you need tera, probably dark, because you die to psychic moves):
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 230-272 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Haunter: 168-198 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Mesprit Psychic Noise vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Haunter: 136-162 (58.8 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tera Fairy Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Mesprit: 260-308 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mesprit: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Haunter: 205-243 (88.7 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ori (sad):
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Oricorio-Sensu: 216-254 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Brux (happy):
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bruxish: 320-380 (115.5 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
C -> UR
Who runs this? And if it's you please post a replay. my favorite fairy type is tera mesprit or tera dudunsparce anyways; I have never considered this mon for a team
And I have no desire to untangle the terrain mons from the top tiers, but here are random letters based mostly on vibes since i lack experience on most of them! New -> B- (Haven't tried it or seen it lol so ignore me, prob better than the pincushion, prob not your #1 choice for a bruxish check, although that's probably the only thing keeping it above C) B+ -> C/UR (usually pretty bad, but worth a footnote, unless thwackey is going into C-tier) A- -> B- (mid to a fault, worse as a special breaker/scarfer than Magneton who I just bashed, but although Thwackey is better for terrain, I think Indeedee is better outside of terrain teams, and the sucker punch blocking has enough potential to tie it with thwackey in my eyes) S -> A- (should be above Passimian, who is B+) S -> B+ (Feels a little awkward as a pivot? If you want a fast pivot, you want something that does more damage, and if you want a slow, poison-spreading pivot, you run Qwil, who can also pull off a surprise SD set. Prankster Encore goes hard tho, alhtough there are better encore mons named mesprit in the tier) A+ -> B-?? (I genuinely have not seen or tried this mon outside of terrain. It ripped so many holes in terrain that I think B- is too low, but without seeing it in action post unburden ban, I can't defend it or suggest it higher) B-> B- (not terrible as a defensive defogger although a little bad due to reliance on Strength Sap and low defense stats. No, I don't have any replays saved, but if Clefairy can have C-tier then defensive Drifblim can be B-, although definitely not any higher - it's not that good)
if i posted this a couple times, i would have no idea because forms decided not to load for a few mins. Sure hope voting didnt start before i posted lol
VR Update, the vote started before the previous nom and Bruxish ban.
Dudunsparce A to A+ Orthworm A to A+ Decidueye-Hisui A- to S Farigiraf A- to A Glastrier A- to A Qwilfish-Hisui A- to A Regirock A- to A+ Toxicroak A- to A Articuno B+ to A Dipplin B+ to A Passimian B+ to A- Avalugg-Hisui B to B+ Charizard B to A Mismagius B to B+ Typhlosion B to A Cramorant B- to B Lurantis B- to B Malamar B- to B Muk B- to B Naclstack B- to B Appletun C+ to B Dodrio C to B Lanturn C to B- Persian-Alola C to B- Pyroar C to B Spiritomb C to B+
Grafaiai S to A+ Hitmonlee S to B+ Sceptile A+ to B- Thwackey A+ to B- Qwilfish A to A- Sandaconda A to A- Whimsicott A to A- Frosmoth A- to B+ Indeedee-F A- to B- Oricorio-Sensu A- to B+ Rotom A- to B Pincurchin B+ to UR Drifblim B to C+ Floatzel B to B- Tauros B to C+ Veluza B to B- Porygon2 B- to C Arboliva C+ to C Bastiodon C to UR
Cacturne to C Crabominable to C+ Cryogonal to B- Dachsbun to C Hattrem to C Leafeon to C+ Rabsca to C Raichu-Alola to C+ Scovillain to B- Volbeat to B- Perrserker to B- Mabosstiff to C
I am so proud of myself for making a quick little post that is only half the length of the last one I made (proceeds to make it longer).
B- (or C but not updated on OP) -> B+
Porygon2 is a very, very legitimate pick in this meta. It is a bulky special wall with recover. Although it is a little item reliant, so are walls like Regirock and Articuno, with the latter wanting to keep its boots pre-tera more than P2 needs its eviolite. P2 also has the benefit of being able to run the absolutely goated boltbeam coverage, which is very painful to switch around. Its abilities further boost its viability, with download increasing its offensive pressure, and trace being able to destroy Typhlosion and convince it to run blaze (maybe not all the time, but no other mon rn can claim this feat). Nom may be a little high, but it's definitely a part of the meta.
B- -> B+
We banned Bruxish, and Floatzel is the best replacement. Ice spinner is very nice for the army of grass types that will switch into a wave crash. Don't think it should be higher than B+ since I don't think it's as impactful as the A- mons, but it would be criminal if this mon didn't rise.
Keep UR
Maybe a C-rank would be justified, but just use Floatzel. Water isn't free to spam in this tier, and its only good coverage move is head smash. Wanted to put my opinion on this here just in case.
B -> A-
This is the second best removal option in the tier, and I think it should be ranked as so. Gulp Missile is very goofy and very annoying to play around, since losing 25% or 50% of your HP and getting para'd bc you didn't 2HKO is not something you really want to do. Additionally, this is the most viable pokemon to run Surf on in the tier. Our fire types tend to hit everything at least neutrally, which means that a defensive water with recovery can go a long way.
UR -> C There have been a couple of counterarguments to anyone in the ZU room saying this mon is completely unviable. Sure, Zard and Typh will be better 95% of the time, but it's fast, gets wisp, has flash fire, and has a deep movepool. Definitely usable, although its spa is 81, and I do think Magmortar is better than it on paper.
C -> UR
someone please let me know what this does. it needs full investment with evio to reach 300s in its defensive stats with only 344 hp, and it loses its defenses if it absorbs a knock off. Removal isn't dire enough to make magic guard necessary, rocks aren't hard to fit, it's passive, and if you really need a defensive fairy type to check fighting types, tera your p2, mesprit, snorlax, or something else. To be fair, it isn't garbage in the calcs and it gets moonlight, but how do you justify this over mesprit? On top of that, a ctrl + F search of the ZUPL usage stats does not have it show up once. Klawf, Haunter, and Komala have more usage than it (although only Klawf has wins), and none are ranked.
I do stand by Haunter deserving at least a C even though I have no new evidence to support this, and I would nom dudun and lax down, but my only logic is 'I haven't seen them in a min' and 'cool archer bird exists,' and I don't think that is enough proof. Think i posted before voting this time lol
Wanna add my thoughts on some mons pn the VR and mabye some rises / drops in ranking B- -> B+ / A-
With Helec gone, Lanturn feels really nice in the current metagame, what with checking so many things like Typh and Zard, and just being able to slow pivot with Volt Switch and spread burn with Scald. Plus it Voltblocks pretty damn well. Its passivity is an issue sometimes but it feels really good rn and im definitely not the only one that thinks that way.
UR -> C+
Ninetales seems outclassed by Typh and Zard, but it has access to a ton of utility like Encore, Memento, Hwish, etc. Its bulk is quite respectable too, and while it hits like wet tissue, the utility it has over the other fires cant be denied.
B -> A-
What with being the 2nd best hazard removal option, as well as being a great check to the Fires and being good into every good hazard setter besides HQwil, Cram very much deserves a higher ranking. Gulp missile can also help even when Cram is on the back foot, since it can guarantee 25-50% damage and even paralysis if you cant 2HKO it.
/ Sun in general C -> B-
Sun feels really good in this meta, and Shiftry is probably the best abuser, since it hits like a truck when boosted and lands 1 or 2HKOs on almost anything. What about Hecid you say? Well, Hecid seems like a good switchin, till it gets dropped by Heat Wave or Weather Ball, which also destroy Orth, Weezing, and Glast. Sure, sun can struggle into super fat teams and hates surprise teras, but i feel that its pretty consistent at the moment, especially since Shiftry ploughs right through common defensive cores like Turn/Orth/Weez or Regirock/Hecid.
UR-> C+ / B-
Touc is super underated as really scary breaker that happens to switch in to Conda and Pallo super nicely. BB and Bullet Seed tear through most physical walls, and Knock greatly annoys otherwise safe switch-ins like Orthworm. Roost lets it stay healthy, and its surprisingly bulky too. Sure, Brav and Dodrio are pretty stiff competition, but i strongly believe that toucannon has a place in the tier. Plus it can go funny specs boomburst if you want it to.
S+ -> A+
Hecid is definitely great, but by no means is it the best Pokemon in the tier. Its super slow, doesnt fit on every team, and has a lot of great checks like Weezing and Zard. Yeah, its great at defogging and SDing, plus Triple Arrows is absolute bs, but it doesnt feel deserving of such a high ranking.
I have missed one too many hurricanes in a situation where I can't boost higher than +1 and Hurricane is my only move that does over half to the opponent by BP alone. With max spa and max spe, Oricorio cannot win games in this meta.
Running different EV spreads does make it easier to set up and Oricorio has roost for longevity and to answer fire-types, but Oricorio now needs at least one more turn of setup to reach similar stats to the +1 max spa set that isn't killing anything, and the mon is already frail enough. The potential of these sets are why I am not nomming Oricorio lower.
Also, B+ -> B-
Worse than Baile. Is not a fire resist, and therefore is less useful. The only ghost it outspeeds is Rotom or defensive ones that even decid-h would outspeed (except banette but still). Sensu does outspeed Mesprit, but that isn't as valuable as being a potential resist to Typhlosion.
sorry oricorio personally wronged me today. i'm tired. they're also too inconsistent for B+ either way
I felt like this nom was too personal so I decided to watch the ZUPL games with oricorio. Oricorio won in 5/13 games, giving it a 38% winrate, which is bad but it's a low sample size. (I originally counted 6 wins somehow lol). They're also in ascending order, with the most recent appearances first.
Also, I put zero thought into the analysis and implications on what having an oricorio in back would do to a game and just focused on what i saw.
thefranklin v lpz: ori tera'd to kill a glast and got forced out by zard that later kills it taka v baddy: ori got forced out by zard, killed a weezing that spammed haze later, and tera'd to not kill a glast (W) plznostep v axrtix: forced out a typhlosion and qd'd, missed a hurricane and died havoc v ak: haxxed v tpunch zard (W) JJ09LIE v flampoke: gterrain ho oricorio qd'd, got 2 air slash flinches, and won tnunes v tko: brough a vikavolt to sash & died (W) takingnoteskinda v axrtix: tera'd to resist spunch and KO'd a toxicroak
below here are mid august games or before, which are outdated, but I included them for fun: baddy v avarice: the middle in a double against mismagius that ate a wisp, ate an avalugg's ice gale then tera fairy roosted, died later to mismagius (W) leni v baddy: got to +6 v sun after forcing out a scovillain, getting encored, and not dying to a leafeon (W) fish v tnunes: forced out a decid, missed but killed vikavolt, switched out vs typhlosion, hit a hurricane v brav but didn't kill zs v feen: matched up v tr, rev danced on a perrserker and left it with 1hp drew v sylveon: grookey game so it doesn't count; switched in same turn as an indeedee and died to psyshock next turn sufrys v tnunes: qd'd on a palo switchout, hazed by the cuno that came in, missed hurricane, hazed and switched out. Qd'd on nddf, did 50 to cuno, hurricaned down ndd; sceptile
Both oricorios were consistently inconsistent through all the games and seemed easily forced out or haze'd. Ori only got a sweep in 2/13 games, and one was encore'd to +6 and the other got 2 flinches. 3/13 came just shy of a KO before dying, and 2/13 actively missed somewhat important hurricanes, although I only counted the ori in the last game because it missed when it didn't matter but played around missing when it did matter
also, after zupl, how are sun and primeape not higher? what happened week 7 for six Primeape to show up?
Scarf Pass is a really solid and splashable speed control option right now. U-turn and Knock Off are fantastic to have, and its last coverage move allows it to reliably deal with a variety of things, such as Qwilfish, Hecid, Whimsicott, and Charizard. You can't hit all of them at once, sure, but none of them like to eat Knock Off and you can also tune your team to cover what Pass can't with its coverage. Most of the tier doesn't love eating its Close Combats either. Just a really good enabler and quite splashable onto balance and offense. If Yama and Delphox stay I'd nom to A+ because it can also revenge Phox after some chip and it pairs well with Yama in a Fighting spam core that most defensive cores just cannot deal with at all, but I doubt they're gonna stick around so I'll just go with A for now.
B- -> B
I'm a big fan of Floatzel. Having a powerful Water that can pivot is really nice, and Floatzel does that really well. Many of our best Water-resists are prone to getting worn down over the course of a game, so Floatzel can be comfortable spamming Flip Turn until it is ready to Wave Crash its way through the opponent. Hecid, Qwilfish, and a few others are annoying sometimes but you do have Ice Spinner if you have to hit Hecid or other grasses and Flip Turn means you can pivot out to a teammate who can take advantage of them. Aqua Jet is also cool to take down chipped sweepers. It requires significant support but this mon can do really well under the right circumstances so I think a rise is warranted.
The existence of Electrode-hisui was the biggest reason why Decidueye-hisui was so good. Not only was it the best Electrode check, but Electrode moulded the metagame in a way that largely benefitted Decidueye, destroying a lot of offensive teams which Decidueye struggled with. Decidueye in turn did really well against stall/balance with the combination of knock/triple arrows, especially with SD sets.
With Electrode's ban, the meta has become a lot more offensive, which Decidueye does not appreciate at all. The speed is just too bad and too many mons take advantage of it. Namely, SD variants of Qwilfish and Qwilfish Hisui have been on the rise, which both shit on Decidueye. Charizard, Whimsicott, Mesprit, Sneasel, Sneasel-Hisui are all also annoying. Passimian being the best scarfer in the tier doesn't help it either. Defog sets can be taken advantage of, and theres just too few setup opportunities and too many things that outspeed while resisting sucker punch for SD to be great. It's still decent, but definitely not a 'mon you can just throw on any team with little thought like before.
A+ -> B+
I've never really understood why this 'mon is so high. Thick Fat is the best thing it has going for it, but with two top tier rockers in Regirock and Orthworm completely stopping it, there being a plethora of great fighting types in the tier, and it needing removal so badly in a tier where the selection of Defoggers/Spinners is frankly quite awful, it's just not worth. Snorlax is good when you assume your opponent is gonna be loading lazily put together HO and it might just 6-0, but it feels like in at least half the games it's in it does NOTHING, and an A+ 'mon shouldn't be this much of a MU fish. Just use Dudunsparce for a less selfish and more consistently useful normal type.
This guy has been the goat of the tier for a long time. Fire/Flying provides good defensive utility being able to switch in on a decent number of 'mons, most importantly Orthworm and Decidueye-Hisui, and it's almost certain to make progress once it's in. With the exception of the uncommon Lanturn and Porygon2, which is worn down by hazards, every charizard switch in does not like getting wisped. It feels like there is no game where Charizard isn't useful, which is something that can't be said for...
A -> A-
Typhlosion is just way too inconsistent. As a scarfer on balance/bulky offense teams it is simply awful because of the stealth rock weakness, lack of pivot move and how easily it's stopped, especially if it's not max HP. There's even less reason to use scarf now that Passimian and other base 80 scafers outspeed the whole tier unboosted, after Electrode-hisui's ban. The best applications for it is on offense; scarf on sun, specs on sticky web etc. It's good at these roles but these are niche styles which don't justify it's placing.
B+ -> A
Most teams would appreciate having a steel type, and Orthworm can't fit every structure. Magneton is a much less passive option that does well into a plethora of pokemon. Unless you have a lanturn, it's very uncomfortable to switch into, with most ground types taking over 50% from analytic flash cannon and jolteon losing the 1v1. It's great at dealing with mesprit which a lot of teams tend to have problems with, and in a pinch, it can live almost any hit from full and kill back.
B -> A-
Cramorant is one of the biggest winners from the Bruxish and Electrode-hisui bans. With them gone it isn't as easy to bully it and it proves to be quite annoying for a lot of teams. It's still not the best with how passive it is sometimes, but you have to take what you can get with ZU removal.
B- -> A
With Toxicroak moving up to NU, Floatzel is even harder to deal with, now that there's no way to stop flip turn spam. It's great as a scarfer, being the fastest one in the tier and as a band user, doing huge damage and cleaning with aqua jet.
A- -> A
Similarly to Floatzel, it hugely benefits from Toxicroak no longer being in the tier. Since Electrode-hisui was banned, SD sets have been dominating, with +2 Tera water aqua jet taking out faster 'mons like Mismagius and Jolteon from full and plenty of setup opportunities from it's great typing and intimidate. Passimian being the best fighting type in the tier makes defensive sets less splashable, but they are still solid.
A+ -> A
Orthworm is still a solid 'mon, but with Charizard and Qwilfish being so strong and Vikavolt also being a much better option since Electrode-hisui's ban, it feels a little bit passive to be A+. It still has plenty of upsides but on average Regirock feels better as a physically defensive rocker.
I initially expected far less from this Pokemon, since its not-very-high base Attack stat + it's typing that usually isn't considered the best (pure Rock-type) were not very convincing, however, I do feel like I was wrong by seeing it in action. Giving it a Life Orb really makes it a beast, and due to it's amazing Speed Tier, Lycanroc has been showing off as one of the best offensive Pokemon in the meta, not being limited to a suicide lead, and sticking with a 83.33% Winrate in UMPL in 6 uses until now. Presenting Fairy, Psychic, Dark, and Fighting coverage, and with access to strong stab move Stone Edge until you miss, and priority Accelerock, Lycanroc makes up for it's bad typing, and does things in SV ZU right now.
New ~> B+
Froslass seems itself as a solid spikes suicide lead in SV ZU, with a solid Speed Tier, good support moves such as Thunder Wave, Icy Wind and Destiny Bound, it does the job of being a suicide lead very well, but unlike in previous generations or formats, she's very limited to that doing, being outclassed by other Pokemon when trying to do other functions and not that. Still a good one tho, versatility just isn't a word to define it, but still very annoying to see a lead Froslass if you don't have something like Whiscash or lead Lycanroc that can deal with it.
New ~> A- (Aka Brooth Boneeth)
Brute Bonnet is the first paradox Pokemon to ever drop to zu and blablabla (...)
I already said this in my last post in NP Thread, talking about practical and in-field stuff here, and my conclusion after being in the mines and testing & playing vs it a lot is that it's pretty real. Booster Energy finds itself as the best set for me since it does a lot of damage, can switch between moves and has access to priority in Sucker Punch, Close Combat stands as the most common coverage option and it really does things. It's typing is between its biggest issues, as well with being slower than Hisuian Decidueye the broken and pretty much to every non-defensive Pokemon. Solid is what I would say for this, Fighting-types being so dominant is what is gatekeeping it from being amazing. Pretty much the kind of Pokemon that could become better in some time if we get a drop that can pressionate well the Fightings.
Below you'll find some calcs that sustain the stuff I said above, be them positive or negative towards the gobos, as well as the Usage Stats I mentioned.
Lycanroc vs. Regirock
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 153-182 (42 - 50%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 307-361 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock vs. Orthworm
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Orthworm: 226-268 (65.8 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Orthworm: 450-530 (131.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO vs. Hecid
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Fairy Lycanroc Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Decidueye-Hisui: 291-346 (76.7 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Decidueye-Hisui: 390-460 (102.9 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO vs. Brooth Boneeth
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 315-372 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Brute Bonnet vs. Jolteon
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Brute Bonnet Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 243-286 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Brute Bonnet Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 279-328 (102.9 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO vs. Mesprit
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Brute Bonnet Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 354-416 (117.6 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Brute Bonnet Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mesprit: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs. Porygon2
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Brute Bonnet Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 268-316 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Fighting Brute Bonnet Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 402-474 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO vs. Dipplin
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Brute Bonnet Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dipplin: 84-99 (23 - 27.1%) -- 50.3% chance to 4HKO
Now look at this thing trying to survive an U-turn
0 Atk Mesprit U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 212-252 (49.7 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Decidueye-Hisui U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 224-268 (52.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Decidueye-Hisui U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 280-332 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Decidueye-Hisui U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 456-540 (107 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Passimian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 292-348 (68.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Articuno U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 160-192 (37.5 - 45%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Orthworm was already kinda fake before and the drops being also kinda bullies to it made the situation worse, as the Fires- and Fighting-types that already were good on pressuring it got new allies. Very hard to use this Pokemon optimally nowadays and it doesn't put as much as pressure as it once did in builder.
A- ~> B-
Palossand is a Pokemon that just like Orthworm has been decaying both its Usage% and Win%. I've realized some time ago that Palossand is just way too much passive for the meta, being a setup fodder for too many stuff, and relying on unfavorable RNG to not be giga passive. Gimmicks like Trick Specs are kinda inconsistent too and most of the time it just dies before getting to do anything with this sets, since its usually running an unoptimal spread + it loses a move slot to Trick. Maybe if broken Hisuian Decidueye wasn't around I wouldn't throw it down this much, since it would still be able to pretty much checking all Fighting-types, but for now, B- is where it resides in my opinion.
B ~> B+
Think it's fair to give this guy a promotion. Feels like a Pokemon that ends up not being used because of its similar weaknesses to other Fighting-types that are spammed, and isn't used not make the team extremely weak to the same stuff. Mon is pretty dope tho, SD, CB + Switcheroo, Trailblaze, all of those sets are great and very viable, has a very decent bulk to setup in front of non-superffective threats with Eviolite. With a quite good movepool and Speed Tiers, Hisuian Sneasel seems to have a lot of potential.
B- ~> A- / A
Porygon2 in B- just feels so wrong. It does have a lot of weaknesses in fact, but by how great this mon is, it overcomes all of them. Being weak to Fighting-types that are spammed right now, Knock Off, and Hazards isn't easy in fact, but with proper support, Pory2 finds room to shine. Extremely good Abilities to pick from, with highlight to Trace, that allows it to wall Jolteon, Lanturn, Oricorio formes and more, great movepool, having access to a lot of coverage moves in Discharge, Ice Beam, Psyshock, Psychic is between is one of its biggest qualities. Definitely not a easy Pokemon to build around in the current meta, but extremely strong and dangerous for most of the teams around.
The rest of the stuff I think it's worth saying about yo cho and the other ppl above already said and I pretty much agree with what them said about most. This is not a NP thread so I don't have other stuff to say here, hope yall enjoyed reading!
We had a VR slate, thank you FlamPoke and yo cho for joining us.
New Placements: to B+ to A- to A- to UR
Rises: from A to S from A- to A+ from A- to A+ from B+ to A from B to A- from B- to A- from B- to A- from B- to A- from C to C+ from C to B from UR to C from UR to C
Drops: from S to A from A+ to A from A+ to A- from A to A- from C to UR
UR -> B-
Didn't even notice this mon wasn't on the VR but it should be. Not the best suicide lead but an option considering it has both rocks and spikes, immune to taunt, and decent bulk allowing to to survive hits. Can run Rock Tomb to be annoying too.
B -> C
It's niche being slightly faster than Zard and Typhlosion is barely relevant, only getting you the jump on Mismagius, and other Zards and Typhlosions. It has 0 coverage without using your tera, and fast Taunt is cool but isn't worth using over the other fires.
A+ -> A- A -> B+
It definitely feels like these mons are only still ranked so high due to the grassy terrain unburden days. Still both good mons but not that good.
C+ to B-/B
Why is this poor doggo ranked so poorly? He's one of the best physical walls in the tier and a great answer to Passimian, with a unique fire immunity, good utility in wish and a phazing move in roar to prevent becoming free statup fodder.
C to C+
I'm not saying Morpeko is great or anything, but it's a decent pivot and spinner with good offensive capabilities and is way more utilized than those other very team specific mons of C tier.
Drops
A to A-/B+
I wouldn't say Articuno is bad, but seeing it in A tier along some meta defining Pokémons surely feels wrong, it has some good moves and great stats but its atrocious typing leave it too exposed to common threats such as zard, jolt and Passimian, and god forbid if those boots were to ever be knocked off.
B to C
I don't even remember the last time i've seen this thing being played, it doesn't even remotely compare to Zard and Typhlo and even Ninetales and Houndoom have better overall niches than him.
B to B-/C+
I hate to say this coz i love this guy, but Primeape is in a really tough spot rn, its scarf set is completely outclassed by Passimian and its already nichey spot as a suicide lead has gotten even thinner due to the competition of the newcomers Lycanroc and Froslass.
PS: i didn't mention it but i've kept the bulk up+rage fist set in mind while writing this, and that's why i'm proposing just a soft drop instead of a straight C/UR
This may be controversial but I currently consider Dudunsparce to be the best Pokemon in the tier. Both Coil and Calm Mind sets are absolutely crazy Tera abusers that can just win outright with a little bit of support, and the fact that both are viable and capable of performing relatively similar roles creates a very irritating guessing game as to which one you are going to end up with. The SpDef set is also excellent glue and has much better longevity than most Stealth Rock setters along with fantastic utility options in Dragon Tail and Toxic. The wide movepool also lets you cover specific things you may be weak to or run fringier but still potentially rewarding strategies such as Coil ParaFlinch or a more dedicated special wallbreaker. Even if you do not consider Dudun to be better than Charizard I do think that it's consistency and flexibility makes it very deserving of S.
B -> B+
I started using Lurantis a bit more to check out our alternative removal options and I was pleasantly surprised by how effective this Pokemon is. Its decent typing, reliable recovery, and Defog allows it to do very well into common hazard setters like Sandaconda, Dudunsparce, Palossand, Regirock, Sandslash, and Rhydon while also applying pressure to Orthworm and Lycanroc and potentially even HQwil and Froslass if you are willing to Tera. It's also a quite decent wincon with Contrary, especially if you Tera, and even if you don't win outright you can often blow a decent hole in defensive cores. This is a unique set of traits that is hard to come by in ZU right now and it takes a surprising amount of pressure off of the builder. Cool mon.
B -> B+
Life Orb sets with Synthesis are very challenging for many teams to switch into and it has a good speed tier so it can match up well against offense. Seed Flare is absolutely crazy and with coverage options like Earth Power, Dazzling Gleam, or Psychic you can hit a lot of the meta for good damage. Has to Tera a lot against Zard builds but this is a small price to pay for how good of a wallbreaker and wincon this can be.
B -> B-
Meh. The defensive profile of a specially bulky and relatively threatening Ground-type spinner is cool and all but the poor Physical Defense is just such a headache to work around. I've had some success with Eject Pack sets on Voltturn so you can compress Ground-type+Hazard Control+Pivoting but its just really fringey and not consistent enough on a game to game basis.
B -> C+
This is mostly just agreeing with what others have said above, the niche of a better speed tier and Taunt over Zard and Typh is too narrow when you consider its flawed typing and coverage. Probably a couple of specific builds that benefit from that set of traits but not enough for it to still be B imo.
C+ -> C
Glastrier existing is disastrous to this things viability; yeah it's strong and all but Glastrier just offers so much more. Probably has a small niche on Trick Room (you could maybe try running both Glastrier and this idk) but I have a hard time believing that there's a non TR build out there that can justify putting this thing on it over Glastrier.
A+ -> S
Agree with everything Sputnik said, best mon in the tier. The coil set is the closest thing this tier has to broken, being able to get so many free turns with paralysis. Being able to hit hard, and still have a 60% chance to paralyse ur opponent is stupid af. Great defensive utility and the fact that a defensive check to many of the metas big threats can also turn around and be a wincon is always nice.
A+ -> S-
Another mon similar to Dudunsparce without the cheese. Very splashable mon and offenses best way to check fighting types without draining momentum, while also having the Encore NP set as a wincon. I wouldn't put it in S because its defensive typing isn't that good, while it also isn't able to be a sturdy defensive wall while also being a wincon at the same time, but it's way better than anything else in A+, and for that it deserves its own rank.
S -> S-
Very good mon and a progress maker, however I do feel the meta has adapted to Charizard alot. Many Charizard checks have risen, such as P2, Cramorant and Lanturn. At the very least every team is packing a fire resist which for Zard to break through it needs to bank on hitting multiple hurricanes. Still a top 3 mon at least but it isn't undeniably the best mon.
A -> A+
I do think the drop from S to A was harsh, while the meta has adapted to this mon and the rise of Zard makes it hard for this mon, It's still better than everything in A deserves to be in A+. A lot of the mons that have risen in viability recently due to checking Charizard, such as P2 and Lanturn get taken advantage of by Decidueye, and the ability to cheese though your checks is always nice.
B+ -> B B -> B+
Grouping these together because they can do similar stuff with the SD + Speed boosting stuff. Sneasel-Hisui is better, having better bulk due to the eviolite, and a way better speed tier meaning it doesn't always need the speed boost to win the game. This does allow Sneasel-H to run Poison/Fighting/Dark coverage which is unresisted (aside from sneasel-h mirrors), whereas Hitmonlees dark/fighting coverage is checked by the random tera fairy that every team should have. Sneasel doesn't completely outclass it, due to Hitmonlee being way stronger, having knock off which is way better dark coverage than throat chop, and rapid spin for some hazard control.
C -> B-
Sun is super legit, and this might be the best abuser. Chlorophyll + the Sun boosting its stab Fire Blasts makes it way more threatening that the other chlorophyll mons. It is rocks weak however, and thus gets worn down a lot quicker, or is forced to run boots, but that can be played around, for example looking at OBB's sun team where he ran Hattrem, allowing his sun abusers to not be forced to run boots. Scovillain doesn't come out but you get the idea.
C+ -> UR
Gonna be a bit polarising here, there is 0 reason to use this mon over Glastrier. Glastrier gets the same coverage, is way more bulky, can set up faster, gets a boost every time a mons dies etc. If I go down my list of TR abusers I'd use, it wouldn't be in my top 4, and at that point why is it ranked?
C+ -> B-
Cool mon, the only usable pure fairy type, and an awesome ability considering a top 3 mon loves spamming fire attacks. Body press + Roar prevents it from being too passive, and is a lot more usable than the dross in the C+ rank.
B -> C+
You get tricked into using this mon by the role compression you think it brings. Knock off, spin, electric immunity, spikes etc. However in practice its always subpar. A special wall that gets cooked by most of the special breakers in the tier will always suck. It's ability on paper seems nice but Hattrem is rare and you can't get up an emergency spike when ur about to die because you just go last.
UR -> C
Had some sort of tournament success as seen here and on paper doesn't look horrid? Good defensive typing, nice utility moves like toxic strength sap leech seed. Might be a bit of a stretch but just wanted to throw it out there.
A- -> B
I've heard some discussion on this mon, and I don't think Sandaconda hasn't fared very well over meta trends. Compared to other Stealth Rock setters like Regirock, Orthworm, Rhydon, and even Palossand, Sandaconda's defensive profile is quite mediocre. Its mediocre special bulk, lacking of a secondary typing, and deceptively subpar movepool means its very hard to use its talents as a paralysis spreader; even other utility Pokemon like Mesprit and Dudunsparce provide more useful support and potentially deadly win conditions. Offensive sets haven't been proven to be quite useful either as it has trouble breaking through threats like Dipplin and Mesprit without Terastalization and even walls like Articuno and Orthworm with Terastalization. It just hasn't been the same pre-drops, and even then it was hard to justify over Regirock and Orthworm at the time. Even as a bulky setup sweeper, Dudunsparce and Dipplin have just been better overall with their abilities and typings, though Sandaconda does have some cool tools with Shed Skin + Scale Shot. Overall it has been more difficult to fit this over other bulky setup sweepers and Stealth Rock setters.
A- -> A+
Trace does extremely well against multiple Pokemon on the rise: Lanturn, Qwilfish, Jolteon, Whimsicott, and Grafaiai all have excellent abilities Porygon2 can make use of with its massive bulk and utility. While vulnerable to hazards and residual damage Porygon2 is frequently paired with hazard support because of it, and a lot of the paralysis and other random status it spreads with Tri Attack makes this deceptively annoying to switch into, as a lot of walls struggle performing when faced with possible paralyses, and a lot of the meta has balance cores that Porygon2 can mess up on. Porygon2 has been quite easy to fit on a lot of teams for these reasons and I think a rise is warranted for being rewarding on the teams it fits on.
B+ -> B/B-
To be honest, it does really well as a hazard lead. Certainly not a bad thing, and has the ability, typing, power, and movepool to boot. The problem is that most other Stealth Rock setters have a lot more utility aside from hyper offense teams they can provide, and Avalugg-Hisui is far too flawed with its awful speed and typing; trying to make it an offensive hazard remover with Recover means you have to be very careful for it not to be hit by special attacks, Knock Off, or to give up momentum with U-turn, which is a tall order considering a lot of Pokemon run at least one of these moves. Again, Regirock, Mesprit, Dudunsparce, Rhydon, and Orthworm will fit in many more teams before the iceberg gets considered. Avalugg-Hisui is far too specific for a B+ ranking and a nomination down is called for.
B+ -> A-
Certainly not as bulky as Regirock, threateningly bulky as Rhydon, but Sandslash's role compression with Rapid Spin + Knock Off is quite noteworthy. Its also got sufficient physical bulk to be a decent emergency wall against much of the meta, and said tools allow it to be more easily slotted on teams compared to Sandaconda and Avalugg-H. It's this weird mesh of taking all the strengths of the best Stealth Rock setters in this meta and putting it here, but not truly excelling. The increased use in ZU tours means its roles are needed on teams, which helps it stand out more.
UR -> C
Something I never quite understood was Medicham being unranked and having zero usage. Just because there's no replays on this yoga fighter doesn't mean it is necessarily bad. Yes, it lacks U-turn and Knock Off like Passimian does, or the Speed + Swords Dance Virizion provides, but it is made up in secondary STAB and sheer immediate power. Unlike other Fighting-types, its secondary Psychic typing means it has much better matchups against Poison-types like Qwilfish, Weezing, and Tera Poison mons like Dudunsparce and Dipplin, which are otherwise quite consistent into these Fighting-types (Passimian, Virizion, and Sneasel-Hisui damage themselves quite hard even when they're weakened sufficiently). Also, Ice Punch lets it immediately threaten a 2HKO on Dipplin, whereas other Fighting-types like Virizion (even at +2 with a standard Boots set, needs Stealth Rock to have a marginal chance to think about 2HKOing, and Passimian needs two consectutive Gunk Shots to connect, which doesn't even 2HKO even with Stealth Rock). Medicham also gets marginal defensive utility by being an okay switch-in against other Fighting-types through its Psychic-typing, which makes them more hesitant on spamming their STAB moves. Lastly, Trick is also cool for disrupting walls like Dudunsparce and Tera Ghost Orthworm and more heavily cripples their designated roles as well. Not the first thing you'd think of when slotting into a team but I feel its strengths have been downplayed heavily compared to other breakers/Fighting-types.
B to B-/C+
Why is Dodrio ranked so high? Being one of the fastest sdancers in zu is good no doubt, but is that really enough to put him in the same tier as Braviary who has a better movepool, way better abilities, more flexibility(choicer, agility, bulk up, even defogger) and higher stats in everything but speed?
A+ to B+
Feel like Grafaiai stocks are much lower lately, as fitting a Poison-type mon has never been harder and it's best used as a Scarfer, which competes with plenty of viable contenders.
A to B+
All three are still pretty strong mons, but they don't quite fit in that upper echelon to me anymore. Articuno still blanks a lot of special mons in the meta, but Knock Off spam is pretty common and it struggles to consistently perform well in my opinion. Farigiraf is largely an OTR mon still, double dance is okay I guess? Orthworm is just inferior to a lot of other rockers and is hard to fit as a spiker since it's threatened by other staples like Charizard and Mesprit.
A- to B/B+
I'd be okay with putting both of these in either B or B+, preferably B to me, as they are giant momentum sinks more often than not and will get abused by the pivot spam nature of the meta. Palossand either lands the matchup or it doesn't generally and Sandaconda isn't getting a ton of milage clicking Glare these days.
B to B-/C+
Has anyone actually seen an Appletun or Pyroar lately? Both still have small niches, sure, as Appletun can be an annoying fat Leech Seed mon and Pyroar is naturally faster than base 100s which is nice, but they're bad mons. Toedscruel is better than people give it credit for... but I can't say it's any better than B- at this time.
Rises
C to C+ / C to B/B-
Hattrem is deceptively annoying and can enable a lot of the strong setup options in the tier. Mabostiff has that dawg in him as a great Band or Scarf option, Magmortar fights for a slot as a Fire-type but is still insanely versatile and strong, Scovillain sun will eventually return to really good (or at least kinda good...), and Venomoth is low key broken.
C+ to B-
Both pretty strong attackers, with Hitmonchan nicely using AV sets as a removal option and Knock user in one slot. Tauros is one of those mons that doesn't show up a ton but every time I play against it I am forced to make unfun concessions because of how fast it is.
B to B+ / B to A
Specs Arboliva has almost no switch ins and can provide grassy terrain support to friends. Lurantis remains really annoying to kill at times and can be nice vs offense. Malamar is similar to Tauros, doesn't get used a ton but you're always trading down vs it. Rhydon is pretty good in HO and surprisingly good on balance, too. Hisuian Sneasel being ranked B is a travesty, that thing is one of the best breakers in the meta.
B+ to A
Perhaps this is my grassy terrain spam speaking to me, but this thing is really easy to position and can run plenty of bulk while still outpacing the Scarfers at +1.
A- to A+
I nominated this to A+ during the last vote and stand by it, it is practically unkillable and the (soon?) absence of Dudunsparce will make fitting it on teams easier (not that they compete for the same role, but stacking Normal's is tricky).
A+ to S
I think Dudunsparce has a legitimate claim to being the best mon in the metagame, as does Mesprit. Both can run multiple sets, all of which are insanely good and splashable, to great success. Dudunsparce will likely be banned because of the Calm Mind and Coil sets being absolute demons, but I've always liked the support set of rocks + Toxic as well. Mesprit is about as versatile as it gets, capable of supporting other breakers with Knock Rocks Turn, Encore to shut down setup attempts, Calm Mind and Nasty Plot to enable its own setup attempts, etc. Both really great mons and, to me, deservedly put above the rest of the A+ pool with Charizard.
New Nominations
UR to C
All of these mons have actual uses in the metagame, with Glimmet being the most niche but still (somewhat) viable as an entry hazard setter on HO. Dugtrio has an excellent Speed tier and I've seen some funny sets like LO Sludge Wave to nuke Whimsicott.
UR to C+/B-
Bellossom made a nice appearance on one of many HO's fish made, and is still a really annoying mon after just one Quiver Dance. Gloom is practically unkillable... Honchkrow is way too strong with STAB Sucker Punch to not be mentioned. Medicham, like 5Dots alluded to, is a forgotten menace. Probopass Sand is a legitimate structure and I'd even argue it's good. FanTom is a notable omission and is really good as a Tera captain with Nasty Plot and Pain Split.
A- to B/B+
I'd be okay with putting both of these in either B or B+, preferably B to me, as they are giant momentum sinks more often than not and will get abused by the pivot spam nature of the meta. Palossand either lands the matchup or it doesn't generally and Sandaconda isn't getting a ton of milage clicking Glare these days.
Did want to talk about my experience using Palossand (on stall). I will agree that it does have some tough matchups into our offensive grasses and waters (which are pretty good), but it's one of the archetype's best answers to physical attackers and fighting types like Passimian and Decidueye-H (who I blindly assume never runs a grass move). Palo shines because of its access to Shore Up and chance to cripple attackers with Scorching Sands. However, I agree that it should drop, A- is too high for it since I've used it almost exclusively on fat/stall.
Mostly mentioning this to create an argument that Sandaconda should be lower than Palo. If I want a ground type with Conda's stat spread, I'd use Sandslash (who is kinda hard to use for me (skill issue)) for spin + knock. Shed Skin Rest is less reliable than Shore Up, and Palo has higher HP and special bulk than Conda, making me lean to Palo more. Not sure how viable Coil + Scale shot is these days, but with the assumption that Conda's best sets are defensive ones, I think it should be B-tier.
I agree with several of the nominations made in this thread but I'd like to expand on ones already made while adding my own.
A+ -> higher (S-/S)
It's really tough to build a team in ZU and add Mesprit in a way that makes the team worse or sacrifices the opportunity to run something else. Mesprit sees significantly high usage in both tour and ladder settings, speaking to how it's a cut above even other A+ presences like Qwilfish, Regirock, and Passimian. Being one of the better hazard setters vs the most common remover, Hisuian Decidueye, just adds to its value. U-turn, Psychic Noise, Knock Off, Encore, and Healing Wish all make it a utility and momentum machine that's tough to ever fully take advantage of.
S -> lower (A+)
Charizard is still excellent but certain trends (albeit ones it's helped drive) like more usage of Lanturn and Floatzel don't make it worthy of being S anymore. Again, great addition to teams, but seeing that it's no longer ubiquitous or as much of a strain to check makes a case for dropping it out of S, it's just not as elevated above the A ranks at this point.
A+ -> lower (A/A-)
FlamPoke's B+ nomination is a bit too extreme from my point of view, but the general point that Grafaiai is not the presence it once was seen as totally resonates. Grafaiai is still an excellent progress maker, and Dark-types like Hisuian Qwilfish, Spiritomb, and Brute Bonnet don't have a pleasant time intercepting it either when Knock Off, Poison Touch, and U-turn are all in the picture, but the server icon has been declining in relevance in tours, on ladder, and just generally in builds that would use it compared to other pivots or progress-makers like Mesprit, Hisuian Decidueye, and Qwilfish. Kind of ironic given several checks to it like Palossand, Sandaconda, and Orthworm have similarly declined.
A -> higher (A+)
I have to second Inferno Monferno's nomination for Hisuian Decidueye to return to a higher subrank. It remains very popular in both tour and ladder settings given it's one of the best hazard removers and defensive pivots. The pivoting factor is especially noteworthy, as Hisuian Decidueye forms amazing pivot cores with presences like Jolteon, Floatzel, and Mesprit to catch opponents in a painful vortex. It's going to be so sad when this rises to PU next month.
A -> lower (A-/B+)
Articuno is so cool as a special wall, but what's less cool is being threatened by most special attackers in the tier. Ice / Flying is just not a good defensive typing when Fire-types and Electric-types are the most common and prolific special attacking types. Even higher ranked special attackers like Mesprit, Oricorio formes, and Farigiraf generally have some way to sidestep Cuno as a phazer or wall between Psyshock, Psychic Noise, Taunt, or Encore. My thought is that A is just too high for Cuno.
A- -> lower (B+)
Not that Grass / Fighting isn't a good typing nor that its Speed doesn't distinguish it from Hisuian Decidueye, but Virizion hasn't really kept as relevant as other Pokemon in A- lately in tours like swiss or on ladder. Hisuian Decidueye isn't its only competition, as other SD sweepers like Qwilfish, Hisuian Qwilfish, and Sneasel tend to pop off a lot more, even rising stars like Hisuian Sneasel really challenge Virizion for a spot.
A- -> higher (A)
It's hard for me to not second Inferno Monferno's nomination for Hisuian Decidueye recovering a bit, so I'd also like to propose bumping Cramorant: what you're likely running if you're not running Hisuian Decidueye as your Defogger. I know it was risen on the most recent slate and there's been developments like increased use of Lanturn, but Cramorant distinguishes itself as one of the better hazard removers vs most non-Lycanroc setters. It hasn't stopped trending in tours or on ladder either, really speaking to how Cramorant deserves a spot more along the lines of middle A ranks like Dippin. RIP when this and Hisuain Decidueye rise to PU next month though.
A- -> higher (A)
While I agree with rising Porygon2, I'm less certain it deserves A+ when it's got a lot of flaws, including its passivity, limited Recover PP, vulnerability to entry hazards, and allergy to Knock Off. Regardless, it's one of the hottest new trends in ZU and can capitalize on the departure of Dudunsparce, which could overwhelm it with CM or keep it out of the running as one of the better SpDef Normal walls (alas, poor Snorlax).
A- -> higher (A)
Although Floatzel tends to ruin itself with recoil and entry hazard damage, it's one of the best offensive pivots in the tier, just behind Passimian in my opinion, which should be matched by a rise to A. I know it saw a rise on the most recent VR update, but Floatzel's presence on several sample teams, its high usage (in no small part because it's on said samples), and the non-zero usage of Water Absorb Lanturn speak to how more people are looking to answer a pivot that is extremely tough to stop. Electric-types like Jolteon and Magneton go together with Floatzel like peanut butter and jelly, and there's no shortage of other amazing pivots like Hisuian Decidueye and Mesprit to pair it with either, especially as Floatzel excels at taking advantage of Charizard for Hisuian Decidueye.
B+ -> higher (A-)
This might be a bit spicier, but I think Vikavolt is worth giving a small rise to for its not insignificant power and utility. The best hazard removers, Hisuian Decidueye and Cramorant, are threatened by its STAB moves, while the most prominent Volt Switch blockers don't appreciate Energy Ball. Several offensive Pokemon like Whimsicott, Brute Bonnet, and Sneasel tend to be pretty frustrated by Vikavolt's ability to tank a hit and take them out, while walls like Articuno and Dipplin aren't safe against it either.
B+ -> lower (B/B-)
I get that Hitmonlee can be offensively threatening, but B+ is just too high of a placement for it, it's not worth sharing a subrank with far better presences like the Oricorio formes, Frosmoth, and Sandslash. Hitmonlee has been entirely absent from recent tours and sharply declined on ladder over the past few months. I don't think it's garbage or anything, as Limber and at least workable special bulk let Hitmonlee take advantage of Porygon2, but it really should not be ranked as high on the VR anymore as it once was. Losing Dudunsparce as a target further cemented some of its mediocrity.
B -> higher (B+/A-)
Another in the genre of "RIP when PU cannibalizes this tier", Rhydon really trended in UMPL and has seen a matching uptick in ladder usage too, justifying a jump up from a really middling rank. Rhydon has the bulk to be one of the most effective tanks in the tier, and it's an excellent defensive Tera user because of its fantastic bulk.
A-> higher (A)
I was doubtful of Brute Bonnet given its underwhelming Speed, its weakness-laden typing, and it being pretty easy to overhype "the only Paradox Pokemon in ZU!!!", but BB is an excellent fixture on bulky offense teams thanks to it almost never being OHKOed by an attack while it hits back hard.
B -> higher (B+)
While it's not as flashy as vanilla Sneasel without Knock Off, Hisuian Sneasel is pretty distinguished as a sweeper that takes advantage of presences like utility Qwilfish formes and Hisuian Decidueye while benefitting from all of the amazing pivots in the meta. Gunk Shot's inaccuracy can be an ick and there's a lot of Fighting-type competition in the tier, but Hisuian Qwilfish's use in UMPL and its rise on ladder reflect it being in-line with other setup sweepers like the Oricorio formes of B+.
A- -> lower (B+/B)
Not only does Sandaconda kind of struggle to keep up as several other users mentioned, but it's just outright not a great hazard setter when the two best Defog users in the tier don't struggle with stepping on it. Mesprit exploits it with Psychic Noise or Encore (hello setup fodder), and its decline or scant usage in settings like UMPL, Swiss, and ladder all speak to how it's not worth being on the same level as even Palossand or Sandslash. Palossand is much more noteworthy as a physical Ground-type that answers Lycanroc, and it's not like Sandaconda (or most Ground-types for that matter) are solid answers to Electric-types like Jolteon, Magneton, or Lanturn.
B -> lower (B-)
Similar to Hitmonlee, Primeape is pretty hard to justify adding to a team when there's a lot of competition from other Fighting-types. This felt overdue for a drop last update, so scant usage in UMPL and later rounds of Swiss matching a decline on ladder speak to Primeape being justifiably dropped in my eyes. It's not that Primeape is entirely without a niche, but it's generally not the go-to for a hazard setter or sweeper for most teams.
+
I'm grouping these all to discuss that I think there needs to be more equity between the subrank divides between them. Volbeat and Scovillain almost always appear together on sun teams, so while there is competition among the many Chlorophyll sweepers, I don't think you build a team without putting the two together. My thought is that Volbeat is a bit awkward appearing B-, so elevated above the other sun sweepers, even if I get why some of it is necessary on a hierarchical resource.
Other nominations I agree with but have less to say about: A -> lower (A-/B+) C -> higher (C+) A -> lower (B+) B -> lower (B-/C+) B+ -> higher (A-) C -> higher (C+/B-/B)
Big announcement, as some may have noticed on the ZU server, we've permanently added 5 users as VR council members! Please welcome BloodAce, diegoyuhhi, estra, FlamPoke, and sleid!
Rises Mesprit A+ to S Decidueye-Hisui A to A+ Brute Bonnet A- to A Cramorant A- to A Floatzel A- to A Porygon2 A- to A Oricorio-Sensu B+ to A Vikavolt B+ to A- Malamar B to B+ Rhydon B to B+ Shaymin B to B+ Sneasel-Hisui B to A- Hitmonchan C+ to B- Mabosstiff C to B- Magmortar C to C+ Scovillain C to B- Venomoth C to B Hattrem C to B- Bellossom UR to C Honchkrow UR to C+ Hippopotas UR to C Medicham UR to C Probopass UR to C Whiscash UR to C Carbink UR to C Dugtrio-Alola UR to C Glimmet UR to C Houndoom UR to C
Drops Charizard S to A+ Grafaiai A+ to A- Articuno A to B+ Farigiraf A to B+ Orthworm A to A- Sandacona A- to B Palossand A- to B+ Virizion A- to B+ Hitmonlee B+ to B Avalugg-Hisui B+ to B Appletun B to C+ Dodrio B to B- Primeape B to B- Pyroar B to C+ Toedscruel B to C+ Crabominable C+ to C
Lycanroc
Minior
Charizard
Floatzel
Mesprit
Regirock
Rotom-Mow
Brute Bonnet
Jolteon
Passimian
Porygon2
Qwilfish
Sneasel-Hisui
Virizion
Avalugg-Hisui
Glastrier
Hattrem
Lanturn
Magneton
Oricorio
Orthworm
Qwilfish-Hisui
Shaymin
Sneasel
Snorlax
Vikavolt
Abomasnow
Arboliva
Beartic
Dipplin
Farigiraf
Mismagius
Poliwrath
Sandslash
Spiritomb
Typhlosion
Whimsicott
Articuno
Braviary
Clawitzer
Cryogonal
Ditto
Exeggutor-Alola
Froslass
Lurantis
Grafaiai
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Malamar
Muk
Naclstack
Palossand
Scovillain
Weezing
Dodrio
Indeedee-F
Persian-Alola
Primeape
Rotom
Sableye
Sandaconda
Thwackey
Toedscruel
Bellossom
Drifblim
Leafeon
Lilligant
Medicham
Perrserker
Sceptile
Shiftry
Tinkatuff
Volbeat
Appletun
Cacturne
Carbink
Combusken
Crabominable
Dachsbun
Dugtrio-Alola
Eelektross
Hippopotas
Hitmonchan
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Mabosstiff
Magmortar
Morpeko
Probopass
Pyroar
Rabsca
Raichu-Alola
Tauros
Veluza
Victreebel
Whiscash
Grookey
A -> S (or A+ ig, assuming it isn't banned first)
A- -> A+
UR -> C
C -> UR
B+ -> C/UR (usually pretty bad, but worth a footnote, unless thwackey is going into C-tier)
Dudunsparce A to A+
Toxicroak A- to A
Cramorant B- to B
Frosmoth A- to B+
Oricorio-Sensu A- to B+
Bastiodon C to UR
Keep 
UR -> 
UR-> C+ / B-
A- -> A
B- -> B
UR -> C
C to B/B-
B to B+ / 
UR to C
UR to C+/B-
