Resource SV Ubers UU Viability Rankings (Post #168 for February Shifts)

[OceanicGamer]

Tornadus-Therian to C
Another flyer rising up when we lose one, ground types rise up, and chien-pao disappears. Having a fast regenerator pivot with taunt is a good niche, and it can be surprisingly bulky even with just HP investment. It has heat wave for magearna, decent STAB (Stronger than lugia lmao), GREAT typing, knock off, and setup with nasty plot. Not emta-defining, but I expect to see more of it when the swiss starts.

I, too, agree with this notion to nominate TornT from the depths of UR hell. I’ve been using an AV set with Knock Off, Bleakwind Storm, UTurn and Icy Wind (for Lando-I). It is an amazing counter to Lando-I, it takes off so much strain off my team that was already weak to it. It’s not perfect, weak to Rocks is always sad, but being able to counter such a threat, as well as provide excellent utility is always cool

 

[FishyRoads]

And the award of most obvious nom ever goes to
from A- to A+/S-
With no therian to compete and help stop, this Pokémon is extremely solid, it can confortably sit as the best Ground Type and the best Flying type in the tier, Scarf sets are solid and 101 speed allows it to outspeed and scarfed and fill the purpose of it's risen therian forme's scarf set of a ground type form of speed control that has pivoting and stealth rock, additionally, life orb sets are still great due to the tier's immensely shaky anwsers to offensive grounds, mainly the hazard weak And other which is the threat in question, After a boost, it has no safe switch-ins barring the rare and exploitable and (Bug only since Grass can't take the sludge wave), it is that starved for switch-ins

 

[Tanny89k]

S —> A/A-

Its matchup against slow-paced teams is just so spectacularly awful. Even with SE coverage and one or two free turns from sleep, it fails to accomplish anything against SpDef Gira, and because it's forced to run Boots to not die to hazards, it just ends up getting chipped to death by status, pivoting, etc.. Doesn't help that Tera Starstorm only has 8 PP.

It's definitely a lot better against offense, but even there it feels like little more than a spinbot a lot of the time. Its middling stats make it hard for it to leverage Tera Shell against sweepers or make itself a consistent wincon with Calm Mind. It has plenty of merit, but I don't think it's S- material by any stretch of the imagination.

big edit: I feel like I did a pretty poor job of articulating my complete rationale behind this nom, so here's some elaboration.

Feels hard to justify over Gira most of the time. Gira doesn't get spinblocked, walls a bunch of offensive threats, can afford longevity in Lefties and Rest, is a strong progress maker with Wisp and Pressure, and makes excellent use of Tera. Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see what Pagos has going for it in comparison. Rapid Spin not clearing hazards on the opposing side is nice, but Gira does a much better job of winning the hazard war long-term. I guess Pagos is better at maintaining pressure on fast-paced offense?

edit 2: Big thanks to Finchley and Imperial for their responses, they have done a fantastic job at clarifying Pagos' use cases.

 

[Finchely]

For one I will agree that Terapagos probably isn't S tier and is more deserving of A+, since it's by no means a mandatory pick on every team and doesn't support its teammates as much as it needs its teammates to support it. That said,

You're greatly underestimating the power of Tera Shell, as it allows Terapagos to survive an attack from virtually anything. Furthermore, it also has a massive fuckoff 120 base power stab move it can fling around everywhere that does massive damage. The combination of these two things means that its "middling stats" (not even that bad 95 110 110 defenses is better than magearna's) allow it to seriously pose a problem to just about any kind of offense. To say that Terapagos' stats inhibit its ability to utilize its good traits is just false, and instead Terapagos' good traits allow it to succeed in spite of its middling stats. Terapagos' ability to completely turn the tables on any nearly any offensive pokemon, in combination with its utility in Rapid Spin, means that it can pose as a very valuable piece on most teams barring stall. It does have an issue breaking lefties SpDef Tina, but that in and of itself is abusable and can be broken with smart plays and hazard use.

To contrast Terapagos with Giratina is just kind of stupid imo, because the only good point of comparison is hazard removal, which even then they still perform wildly different roles and shouldn't be directly compared as if they were substitutes for each other. In contrast with Terapagos, Giratina is far more relegated to a (sometimes) more passive defensive role (disregard CM tina, it's good but isn't easily used and functions completely different from Terapagos so they shouldn't be compared either). Giratina's role is to be the fattest fuck around, and annoy shit with phazing and status. It's a defensive lynchpin that has to be played carefully around or else it can spread a lot of chip.

This I believe is the "crucial" thing that sets terapagos apart. Terapagos is an offensive (we ignore the roar set it sucks) Pokemon who's very good at dealing with offense that happens to have decent removal, whereas Giratina typically trades offensive presence in exchange for much more consistent defensive utility. They simply just play very different roles, and can't be freely interchanged.

 

[Imperial]

Drops:

Alomomola from A+ to A
Arceus-Dark from A+ to A
Chi-yu from A to A-
Arceus-Poison from S- to A+
Mewtwo from S- to A+
Terapagos from S to A+
Arceus-Grass from B+ to B
Deoxys-Speed from B+ to B
Zamazenta-Crowned from A- to B
Garganacl from B to B-
Slowking Galar from B- to C+
Sneasler from B to B-
Great Tusk from B- to C
Palkia from C+ to C
Walking Wake from C+ to C
Galvantula from C to C-
Espathra from B to C+
Excadrill from B to C+
Hatterene from B- to C+
Mandibuzz from B- to C+
Toxapex from B- to C+
Magearna from S+ to S
Dragapult from C to Unranked/D
Dugtrio from C- to Unranked/D
Gothitelle from C- to Unranked/D
Ninetales-Alola from C- to Unranked/D
Pelipper from C- to Unranked/D
Tornadus-Therian to Unranked/D
Magnezone to Unranked/D
Bronzong to Unranked/D
Iron Valiant to Unranked/D
Dialga from C+ to C

Rises:
Arceus-Electric from B+ to A-
Regieleki from B+ to A-
Landorus from A- to A+
Arceus-Rock from C to B
Gouging Fire from B- to B
Moltres from B- to B
Spectrier from B- to B
Gholdengo from C+ to B-
Lugia from C to B-
Ursaluna from C to B-
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike from C to B-
Kyurem-White from B to B+
Palafin from B to B+
Palkia-Origin from B to B+
Urshifu from B to B+
Quagsire from Unranked/D to C-
Dialga-Origin from Unranked/D to C
Latios to C
Arceus-Psychic from Unranked/D to C-
Araquanid from C- to C+
Blissey from C to C+
Dondozo from C to C+
Ogerpon from C to C+
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon from Unranked/D to C+
Volcarona from C- to C+
Giratina from A to S-
Gastrodon to C-
Clodsire to B-
Ditto to C
Enamorus to C

 

[Medeia]

So this VR is really outdated now after multiple Bans and rises and tours such as UMPL, UUbers Swiss, Ghosting Tour and even UM Swiss show some meta changes and to start off the process of updating this VR (which will happen after UMPL at this point) i'll do some noms:

Landorus A - —> S-/S

This nomination should not be a surprise, this tiers standard offense and Balance teams have 0 real switch-ins for this and the latter has to resort to a few faster revenge killers or soft-checks such as Arceus-Grass. Stall also absolutely has to run immunes such as Lugia who can also take on its usual coverage to not just get steamrolled by this monster. Biggest winner of the rises of Chien-Pao + Landorus-T and multiple bans bar none and meta defining.

Deoxys A+ —> A/A-

This pokemon simply has more trouble to fit into teams compared to its direct competition Mewtwo which actually has bulk to survive hits and it doesn't like any of the trends either towards T-Wave spam, experiments with Scarfers, rise of Annihilape Webs and all the Extreme Killer Arceus if its not Tera Ghost. However, its still a strong wallbreaker and its speedtier to outspeed and OHKO Zacian (without shit like Trailbaze or Scarf lmao) will always be relevant so it should stay in the A ranks, just all the A+ mons and higher are just more consistent and fit on more teams.

Magearna S+ —> S

This nomimation may be controversial, but i do not think Magearna is absolutely mandatory on any playstyle anymore, even on balance, since the rise of Chien-Pao and even more so since ban of Arceus-Dragon there's more experiments with other steels like Excadrill, Steel Birds, Gholdengo and Solgaleo possible, same goes for bulkier offense and stall and it was never mandatory on HOs in the first place. The huge rise of Landorus-I in particular doesn't help it either and it's usual partners on bog standard balances and itself tend to get bullied by not just Lando but Mewtwo and multiple Arceus formes like Electric, Taunt + CM Grass, and even Poison if you can overwhelm Giratina.

I think this is also reflected in the usage stats, it's a magnificent role compressor that will always be a defining part of SV Ubers UU, but its just no Primal-Groudon, GSC Snorlax that you have to run on every serious competitive team or some hilariously broken Pokemon at the start of the generation that gets nuked out of the tier quickly.

Zamazenta-Crowned B —> B-

Idk the last time when i saw this Pokemon do anything relevant. This pokemon gets blanked way too hard by
Giratina, despises all the status and Encore spam since you can't even run Chesto Berry Rest on it unlike regular Zamazenta and feels like more of a Tera Hog than it should be with that Steel Typing without the huge upsides many other threats in this tier (even some relying on it) get. Chien-Paos departure also was kind of the nail in the coffin for this thing since at least it could wall its stabs and only had to worry about boosted Terablast or Sacred Sword really.
I would use Gholdengo and Solgaleo before this Pokemon these days in a heartbeat. I would even nominate it lower somewhere in the C ranks, but idk if that would go through.

Walking Wake C+ —> B

Basically Sun teams made a big splash these last few months and this Pokemon is the most mandatory abuser that is almost unwallable even with Proto speed boost if specs except for Blissey and forces reactive Tera so often + if Proto Speed it outspeeds almost the entire tier except for a few niche mons and none of them can OHKO it (except +2 Excadrill in sand) thanks to its good natural bulk + Water/Dragon typing. No nomination to A since its absolutely only viable on Sun, but i surely disagree about the drop to C, especially post Arc-Dragon ban.

Torkoal C —> B

See all the sun span in tours i mentioned in my Walking Wake nomimation and it at least has a bit disruptive utility on its own. Same rank Walking Wake because they are both absolutely necessary, should not have dropped.

Arceus-Grass B+ —> A-

Beneficiary of both Chien-Pao rise and Arceus-Dragon ban and one of the biggest bulliers of lazy Magearna and Mola builds with Taunt + Calm Mind, on top of that one of the few mons who can somewhat switch into meta defining monster Lando-I. Might even be A+, but it should at least be out of the B ranks now with how effective it has been recently.

Regieleki A- —> C+

Sorry but i'm just absolutely not a believer, if you don't Tera this mon you more than likely play 5v6 with all the Lando-Is + Giratinas around and even if you get a good matchup on paper in teampreview it feels too easily disrupted by well-timed Teras on a mon you would hit supereffectively before. Rapid Spin access and its speedtier is really the only reason why i think its even still viable, because otherwise why don't just keep Tera for some Arceus-forme that will likely sweep, Zacian or some other Tera hog with higher ceiling than this thing will ever have.

Will make another post with more noms the next few days since i gotta go now, at least with these ones i feel particularly strong about.

Edit: Yikes in process of making the Post the update actually happened, now i can overhaul the whole post in the next days or tonight.

 

[Finchely]

So this VR is really outdated now after multiple Bans and rises and tours such as UMPL, UUbers Swiss, Ghosting Tour and even UM Swiss show some meta changes and to start off the process of updating this VR (which will happen after UMPL at this point) i'll do some noms:

Landorus A - —> S-/S

This nomination should not be a surprise, this tiers standard offense and Balance teams have 0 real switch-ins for this and the latter has to resort to a few faster revenge killers or soft-checks such as Arceus-Grass. Stall also absolutely has to run immunes such as Lugia who can also take on its usual coverage to not just get steamrolled by this monster. Biggest winner of the rises of Chien-Pao + Landorus-T and multiple bans bar none and meta defining.

Deoxys A+ —> A/A-

This pokemon simply has more trouble to fit into teams compared to its direct competition Mewtwo which actually has bulk to survive hits and it doesn't like any of the trends either towards T-Wave spam, experiments with Scarfers, rise of Annihilape Webs and all the Extreme Killer Arceus if its not Tera Ghost. However, its still a strong wallbreaker and its speedtier to outspeed and OHKO Zacian (without shit like Trailbaze or Scarf lmao) will always be relevant so it should stay in the A ranks, just all the A+ mons and higher are just more consistent and fit on more teams.

Magearna S+ —> S

This nomimation may be controversial, but i do not think Magearna is absolutely mandatory on any playstyle anymore, even on balance, since the rise of Chien-Pao and even more so since ban of Arceus-Dragon there's more experiments with other steels like Excadrill, Steel Birds, Gholdengo and Solgaleo possible, same goes for bulkier offense and stall and it was never mandatory on HOs in the first place. The huge rise of Landorus-I in particular doesn't help it either and it's usual partners on bog standard balances and itself tend to get bullied by not just Lando but Mewtwo and multiple Arceus formes like Electric, Taunt + CM Grass, and even Poison if you can overwhelm Giratina.

I think this is also reflected in the usage stats, it's a magnificent role compressor that will always be a defining part of SV Ubers UU, but its just no Primal-Groudon, GSC Snorlax that you have to run on every serious competitive team or some hilariously broken Pokemon at the start of the generation that gets nuked out of the tier quickly.

Zamazenta-Crowned A- —> B-

Idk the last time when i saw this Pokemon do anything relevant. This pokemon gets blanked way too hard by
Giratina, despises all the status and Encore spam since you can't even run Chesto Berry Rest on it unlike regular Zamazenta and feels like more of a Tera Hog than it should be with that Steel Typing without the huge upsides many other threats in this tier (even some relying on it) get. Chien-Paos departure also was kind of the nail in the coffin for this thing since at least it could wall its stabs and only had to worry about boosted Terablast or Sacred Sword really.
I would use Gholdengo and Solgaleo before this Pokemon these days in a heartbeat. I would even nominate it lower somewhere in the C ranks, but idk if that would go through.

Walking Wake C+ —> B+

Basically Sun teams made a big splash these last few months and this Pokemon is the most mandatory abuser that is almost unwallable even with Proto speed boost if specs except for Blissey and forces reactive Tera so often + if Proto Speed it outspeeds almost the entire tier except for a few niche mons and none of them can OHKO it (except +2 Excadrill in sand) thanks to its good natural bulk + Water/Dragon typing. No nomination to A for now since its absolutely only viable on Sun, but its success on these teams qnd lately and Suns as a whole should be reflected in VR.

Torkoal C —> B

See suns success i mentioned in my Walking Wake nomimation and it at least has a bit disruptive utility on its own. Bit Lower than Walking Wake because that mons such a driving force for the playstyles success besides now banned Arceus-Dragon & Poison.

Arceus-Grass B+ —> A

Beneficiary of both Chien-Pao rise and Arceus-Dragon ban and one of the biggest bulliers of lazy Magearna and Mola builds with Taunt + Calm Mind, on top of that one of the few mons who can somewhat switch into meta defining monster Lando-I. Might even be A+, but it should at least be out of the B ranks now with how effective it has been recently.

Regieleki B+ —> C+

Sorry but i'm just not a believer, if you don't Tera this mon you more than likely play 5v6 with all the Lando-Is + Giratinas around and even if you get a good matchup on paper in teampreview it feels too easily disrupted by well-timed Teras on a mon you would hit supereffectively before. Rapid Spin access and its speedtier is really the only reason why i think its even still viable, because otherwise why don't just keep Tera for some Arceus-forme that will likely sweep, Zacian or some other Tera hog with higher ceiling than this thing will ever have.

Will make another post with more noms the next few days since i gotta go now, at least with these ones i feel particularly strong about.

Girl misssed the new VR posted 30 minutes ago ;w;

 

[IcyScream]

Goth and Duggy should probably be removed from d tier the same way sceptile, diglett and amoongus are

 

[FishyRoads]

Alright, i've had my fun with a lot of what this tier has to offer and I feel like my opinions are worth doing noms for

Arceus-Psychic from C- to C+-
Of everything i've experimented recently (as in this past month), the thing that surprised me the most was Arceus-Psychic, with Dark Types being the weakest they have been in this tier since DLC 2 drops (Chien-Pao ban, Arceus Poison being the best Arceus, Chi-Yu being rare) there is legitimate merit to mono Stored Power sets (as in the Tera fairy Cosmic Power Taunt i love so much) meaning you are a Crit-Me-Not that can reliably beat every singular phazer in the tier, especially notable for beating Giratina and Solgaleo. It is relatively fishy and may struggle into Teams with Arceus-Dark, but it is very feasible to support on builder, pairing it with things that can deal with it, most notably in my experience The Dogs, Zacian and Zamazenta-Crowned.

Solgaleo from B- to A-
Solgaleo is also a major benefitiary of Dark Types being weaker, With the Chien-Pao ban, it can very feasibly compete with Magearna for the Defensive Pivot role, though it lacks spikes and has a worse defensive typing, it makes up for it with more bulk, access to reliably recovery and Knock Off, with especially the latter being incredibly valuable in the current metagame, it is also notable for being one of the more solid things into Arceus-Electric, whom is an incredibly threatening offensive presence right now

Ursaluna from B- to B+
This mon is really solid right now, both Bulk Up and Flame orb (with Magearna TR support), it does really well into a lot, most notably being the best Giratina bully in the tier while threatening Magearna immensely and Blanking a lot of Arceus-Poison and Arceus-Electric's shenanegans, there isn't much to say, just use the mon, it's really good right now and deserving of a higher rank

Alomomola from A to A-
With the recent increase of Giratina usage, Terapagos is less and less valuable, both having competition as removal and heavily struggling with it, with the decline in Terapagos, comes a decline to Alomomola, who had it as one of it's greatest benefitiaries, the pair is still really good, but nowhere near it was during the rain of MALT or even pre Arceus-Dragon ban, where Alomomola was one of the greatest ways of dealing with it

Terapagos from A+ to A-
With the recent increase of Giratina usage, Terapagos is less and less valuable, both having competition as removal and heavily struggling with it (yes i copied from the Alomomola segment), Terapagos also notably struggles to break through the now much better Solgaleo, it also struggles with overreliance on Alomomola, it basically needs to be paired with the fish if it wants any sense of longevity, support Terapagos still has all the same issues as before and should not be used under normal circumstances.

Besides these, i have opinions on other mons, especially Arceus-Ice, though i don't exactly know where i'd put them so i'll leave those out

 

[Fusion Flare]

-> A- : My glorious king needs a slightly higher rank as the former Ubers UU mascot. One of the best breakers when it comes to running down Magearna + Alo + Tina balances—especially behind a Sub. What's more, its speed tier is excellent. Bulky Arceus--Calm Mind or otherwise--has to run max speed to hope to speed tie it, because it's often the only thing on those sorts of balances that wants to switch in to Palkia and not burn tera immediately for fear of a Spacial Rend crit (they're more common than you'd like, i should know).

Fellow Dragon-type special breaker Kyurem-White shares its current rank, but its speed leaves much to be desired without a Scarf, and in that case support Arceus walks off the hit (assuming no freeze). Palkia-O has less weaknesses—including a lesser vulnerability to hazards—and has a much more spammable STAB, dealing solid neutral damage to Magearna while Kyu-W has to predict. I can’t tell you how many times on ladder i’ve been able to bait a Tera Water out of them while behind the comfort of a Sub.

That’s another thing, by the way—power without a choice lock means unlike Kyu-W, it doesn’t have to try and land a Draco and potentially let a Zacian in for free. Yikes.

 

[KineSquared]

Some thoughts on the current list, on the assumption that the january shifts doesn't change things drastically:
Pecharunt to C
This little guy has some nice stuff. Forces the zacian tera and beats it unless its ground (even then it can luck its way through), can swap in on a +1 gouging fire and pivot out, and can stand up to plenty of random u-turns and such in the tier. I run full physdef with hex, sludge bomb, parting shot, recover and either rocky helmet or boots. It is a great enabler of arc-dark, can 1v1 some giratina sets, and is all around a good combination of defensive utility and pivotting for balance teams

Terapagos and Deoxys to A
Terapagos seems to have really fallen off, especially when giratina is king of the world. It just get phased out before it can cm, and dark pulse leaves you encored by mag and just doesn't pack enough of a punch. I could see it dropping even lower, but I've always been a terap hater. I just can't figure out how to use it right.

Deoxys thuds hard into magearna and the omnipresent ekiller arceus sets, which i've noticed on arc-electric most often. It wants a life orb over something like boots, but that often leaves it with not enough HP to clean up a game.

Arceus-Dark from A to S
This thing is so good right now. I've always called it a cheese destroyer, but it does well into landorus, giratina, mewtwo, deoxys, whatever. THE set reigns supreme and I truly believe its as big a deal as magearna right now.

Zacian from A+ to S-
These substitute sets are nasty, and we're seeing more coverage (wild charge on its way back) and diverse choices. It's becoming a truly unstoppable menace when you can't assume its moveset and item slot.

Solgaleo from B- to B+
I'm drinking the "magearna ain't all it used to be" kool-aid, and solg does have some nice options. Dark and ghost weaknesses aren't that bad when arc-dark doesn't want to swap into a sunsteel and giratina doesn't want to get knocked off. Hazards have never been better (because rocks have never been better IMO) so knock off is on the rise.

from C+ to C
If mewtwo rises, this things viability will plummet, but even now i see mewtwos usage dropping a bit. It has a bad case of 4MSS and is just barely not bulky enough for ubers uu. Will forever be fringe usable

Arceus-Ice to C
I'm beginning to believe.

 

[FishyRoads]

Oh yeah this reminds me to do my Iceus nom, a bit of a lengthy one as i do like to yap
from D to B-/B
This mon is great and feels like it hits super hard for some reason, Ice Typing here isn't even that bad in my opinion.
Defensively speaking it's bad but not the worst especially with Tera. our best Fires do not want to switch in with hazards, Ogerpon-Hearthflame and Gouging-Fire take massive damage from Judgement due to not resisting and Chi-Yu scares you but it is Rocks weak and with Tera gets set up on, Moltres is also fodder to it, TB Fire Zacian is both forced to Tera and rare in relation to TB Ground. Rock Types are few though the ones we have (A-Rock and Ttar) do pose a bit of a problem aswell as Stealth Rocks being annoying but not the end of the world considering Giratina is incredible. The biggest issue for Ice is Fighting types and Fighting type moves like Zacian's CC though they can be easily circumvented by both Tera Ghost and Fairy completely flipping the script on Urshifus and Zamazenta-Crowned and making Zacian take huge damage. Steels that carry Steel moves is usually excluded to Solgaleo and the rare Excadrill though that mon does annoy Ice a lot, though it can still Terastalize out of that with Tera Water or even Ghost as a neutrality is plenty since it is an Arceus form.
Offensively speaking Ice tying is amazing, hitting basically everything on the Metagame atleast neutrally besides the Steels (only Solgaleo is an issue as Magearna is exploitable by taunt and Zamazenta is rare and hazard vulnerable while also losing to Ice's favorite partner Giratina) and the Waters (Urshifu-R, Hsamu and Palafin) who take pretty good damage and get Setup on by the right Tera (Ghost for shifu, Water for the other 2), Chi Yu technically resists but it's general frailty and tendency to get Terad -> set up on makes it a poor attempt at stopping Arceus-Ice
TLDR: Ice isn't that bad a type and Tera + Good Removal this tier has lets it overcome the issues the typing has

 

[KineSquared]

Oh and I should have included this earlier, hamurott to at least C+, that thing has priority, hazards, a good defensive typing, pivotting and more. just held back by bad stats really.

 

[Ewin]

-> C/C+


Mimikyu fulfils a unique role on HO, mostly in due to its capability to effectively run the item red card in tandem with its ability disguise. I’d best describe Mimikyu as a free get out of jail card, which is in my eyes an invaluable resource for HO, especially when facing mons that can easily snowball very quickly vs typical Offence structures, such as SD/DD Arceus, Trailblaze Zacian, SG Mage, etc. Mimikyu also isn’t entirely useless after its disguise is broken as its natural bulk gives it some decent staying power seeing as it can be ev’ed to live interactions such as an EP from Lorb Lando-I after its disguise is broken. Ghost Fairy Coverage is also surprisingly difficult to switch in to, although Mimikyu is indeed held back by its low attack stat, SD / Willo-Wisp give it enough offensive pressure to not be complete set up fodder for the more bulkier SD Arc poison sets for example. Seeing as Mimikyu forces a random mon in, it also synergies insanely well with hazard stack, letting you get chip on potentially crucial defensive pivots, enabling the rest of your team to have a much easier time muscling through your opponent.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2277719402-3ters2lb5dkdl21o0uj3umwzxjfaxbgpw?p2 (Forces out Arceus Fighting allowing it to SD For free and pick up a kill on Lando-I, as well as getting added spikes and sneak chip on arceus fighting)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2273267152-rdk1pcgr6d45ki8szlwcjpohit9see6pw (Forces out Urshifu, although it unfortunately misses a PR which puts Arc-Elec out of range of +1 Dclaw, nonetheless it gets the job done by forcing my opponent into an awkward position)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-2276214956-crp4g8q9wt4r9wje1s6qsf2y3ryu9bupw (The Scarf Lando-I switches out despite not being affected by red card because it fears SD into Play rough, which allows mimikyu to then subsequently kill off mage and get important chip off on Garg and Lando putting both in range of Arceus Poison. The game ends in a loss due to a max roll on hex and a well timed full para but without Mimikyu, Arceus Poison would not have been able to muscle through the core of Mage, Lando and Garg)

UR -> C+/B-

Speaking from personal experience, Gothitelle single handily makes Stall viable in this tier. Scarf in conjecture with Trick allows Gothitelle to shut down so many important pokemon including NP Lando-I, Mage, Garg, Annihilape, Espathara, Blood-Moon, etc. Gothitelles ability to deny hazards from Mage / Scarf Lando and more niche pokemon like and Garg / Quag, gives stall an unique opportunity to not have to focus too much on running multiple Boots Pokemon as well as Defog Pokemon. Most notably this frees up a slot on Giratina, a Pokemon who really appreciates running coverage options over defog. Although I generally prefer a more offensive set with psychic noise and focus blast to allow for Gothitelle to also act as a soft check to SD/BU Ursaluna, CM Stored / Tera blast sets allow Gothitelle to potentially turn into a dangerous sweeper against teams lacking a psy immune, and considering the fact that the only prominent darks in the tier are Urshifu, Chiyu and Arceus-Dark, Gothitelle can often simply win off of preview.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2278567350-kwt5ed7dqcidjw5hvr1pp28d3g5i9u0pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-813897
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2277711296-sg8hzds64bvg2p2wwvkfhguzm4tnx1dpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2258104437-b1v65dsmzak6sbhv2z3ztfn46stggkfpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2258115462-jdaykewcmzaxdphiqthoga4vv5j5erfpw?p2 (Gets important chip on Ursaluna)

 

[Leo Justice]

I'd also like to add that Goth can be used to deal with the opponent's hazard control, such as Terapagos or Treads (without needing to risk Giratina getting cheaped down or knocked off, if the opponent has a DD arceus-poison, for example), your opponents cleric (can limit Alomomola greatly as it cant ever pass a wish after getting tricked a scarf), and their enabler (like a torkoal, pelipper, or some terrain setter like Indeedee), etc. It is really flexible in its sets and capabilities in battle. To me, the whole stall squad (Blissey, Dozo, Clodsire, Quagsire, Toxapex, etc) should be in B-, as to me it is much more of a viable playstyle than the current ranking makes it look like.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Thought dump woo, noting only changes of two tiers or more

Magearna from S -> A

Gets worse and worse as the metagame develops. Faces competition from Solgaleo, Iron Treads is its nightmare, Gouging Fire and Arceus-Electric are on the rise, Arceus-Dark is a rarer sight. Chien-Pao has to drop again or something similar for Magearna to maintain its S-tier status.

Zacian from A+ -> S+

Tera is broken, Fairy/Ground isn't a type yet for good reason. Dondozo is the only reliable defensive check and Zacian is so easy to slap on a team, whether you're using Balance, Offense, HO. Revenge killers are limited and often require you to trade a potentially crucial defensive Pokemon.

Terapagos from A+ -> B+

Pretty much can't spin and can't sweep against a team with the second best Pokemon in the tier (Giratina), no offensive Ghosts for its typing to feel valuable, teams with Magearna/Solgaleo or Clodsire also make you feel like you're barely making any progress and many other Pokemon would be doing more.

Alomomola from A -> B

When the turtle falls, so does the fish. Metagame getting faster and its harder to play Balance with Alomomola as well.

Arceus-Electric from A- -> A+

2nd best Arceus IMO, The Calm Mind set's offensive potency is so threatening and is only really forced out by other sweepers that outdamage it like Gouging Fire. Arceus-Dark also just feels worse with omnipresent Zacian, so it doesn't have as much competition. Also just straight up doesn't care about any incoming speed control at a moderate health and +1. Neutral Judgement vs Magearna and Solgaleo means that they can never keep you in check for long, especially if the Magearna is Thunder Wave.

Gouging Fire from B -> A

Speaking of Gouging Fire, this guy is busted. Dragon Dance takes after Dragonceus and has limited checks, especially in Sun. One of the few Pokemon that stands up to Arceus-Electric, and can use a lot of the tiers defensive staples (Magearna, Solgaleo, Iron Treads, Mandibuzz, and Giratina in some circumstances) as set up fodder. It does struggle into many revenge killers, especially when it ends up hurting itself with recoil or lock in depending on which STAB its using.

Moltres from B -> A

Best Flying-type goes a long way, switches into Landorus, is a fake Zacian check, and can punish a lot of physical stuff with Flame Body. Roar is excellent for what it wants to do, and can U-turn itself to keep momentum. It can also run Will-O-Wisp if it wishes to. Can also be useful as a one-time check to Pokemon like physical Arceus-Poison, Urshifu, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire because of its good bulk and utility.

Zamazenta-C from B -> C

You guys need to stop pretending its good...It cant make progress itself with Giratina everywhere, or just Arceus-Poison, Moltres, or even Landorus who deny a sweep. You can slow pivot speed control like Deoxys, Chi-Yu, the worse Landorus, etc and that also shuts down its sweep. I've heard of Sedge sets to lure in Moltres but that's both inconsistent and often means you're missing one of Iron Defense or Roar, so you either check nothing or sweep nothing.

It's not like Zamazenta can make up for this with defensive utility either, it can check Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Ice (barring Tera Ghost) but your teamslot is so much better used on something else, especially when Zacian and a better Steel-type are both near auto includes on teams. It can be used as a one-time check to Pokemon like Poisonceus or Gouging Fire but the incredible inconsistensy is so off putting. It has a niche and can be ranked, but the niche is far too specific to be ranked alongside everything else. No wonder it has a total of 5 whole uses in UUbersPL

Solgaleo from B- -> A

Who knew, when Chien-Pao and Dragonceus get banned, Solgaleo gets back on top? Phasing, recovery, fantastic bulk, pivoting, the Pokemon has it all. Can make an argument for being better than Magearna due to its sheer bulk, having great odds of surviving +3 Tera Blast Ground from Zacian and two Palkia-O Fire Blasts depending on what Solgaleo invests in.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike from B- -> A-

Very good Choice Scarfer right now, revenge kills Tera Ground Zacian, one of the better speed control into Gouging Fire forcing an Outrage, can pivot to keep momentum. Overall a great Pokemon with good uses and doesn't deserve its ridiculously low current rank.

Mandibuzz from C+ -> B+

Probably the most reliable answer to both Deoxys and Landorus, can pivot, has hazard removal, and Knock Off/Toxic for progress making. Takes 2 Palkia-O Hydro Pumps which really showcases its bulk.

Dondozo from C+ -> B+

The sole reliable Zacian check already gives it a good rep, but Its also good at sitting infront of Physical Arceus, Gouging fire, Roaring Moon, Urshifu, Palafin, yeah every physical attacker not named Ursaluna. It can seem awkward but I think Dondozo also works well on Balance just to keep it alive when facing the many tera sweepers.

Latios from C -> A-

Silly shitmon turned goat. Choice Scarf is great speed control that threatens Gouging Fire and gives an offensive check to Landorus, which is always valuable. Still hits Terad Zacian hard and can Trick to ruin offensive and defensive Pokemon alike. Calm Mind also feels nice on Screens and Sun, since with Tera it can steal some games, and can Recover off damage when switching into attacks like Landorus Sludge Wave.

Walking Wake from C -> B+

Sun is quite good right now with a bunch of offensive pressure, abusing Gouging Fire and worrying less about Zacian with their Walking Wake. Fire- and Water-resists remain scarce and fodder to complimentory Dragon STAB. Its not even weak to Landorus when stacking so many offensive threats because Latios has got you covered.

Ninetales from UR -> B

Better than Torkoal because of Hypnosis, Encore, and Healing Wish all working out so well. Otherwise just see what I said about Walking Wake.

Hatterene from C+ -> B+

Almost mandatory on Sun and can fit on more, see Walking Wake.

Quagsire from C- -> C+

Inconsistent Dondozo with Spikes and Toxic. Trailblaze Zacian cooks you but its quite rare, and it can take on physical Arceus decently well. I do think Dondozo is often the better pick because it does so much more defensively, even when it doesn't make any progress itself.

Iron Bundle from NEW -> B+

Specs and Lorb are the only two sets, I would rather fist fight Arceus than rely on Boots Bundle. Water/Ice is good coverage and its tough to wall, nonetheless SpD Solgaleo takes Lorb Iron Bundle well, and Choice Specs can get its pp drain and acts similar to Scarf Chi-Yu, except it doesnt work as speed control. Encore is a neat tool that punishes set up and defensive Pokemon. My biggest issue with this Pokemon though is that it feels impossible to come in. It dies to everything but isnt like Deoxys where it can outspeed ohko everything and get entry points through that.

Iron Treads from NEW -> B

Rocks pivot that owns Magearna is a treasure. Giratina limits how much Treads can spin though, and Steels are stacked. Not much to say otherwise honestly.

 

[FishyRoads]

I shall be doing a singular nom as this Pokémon is extremely underappreciated
from C- -> A-
This silly guy is holding together a good bit of my teams right now, it's the best anwser to Zacian, it's one of the best anwsers for plenty of Arceuses, notably physical Arceus-Poison and CM Arceus-Electric, it can set Spikes, Toxic Spikes or Rocks, Curse lets it beat CB, Substitute and Trailblaze Zacian variants aswell as Gouging-Fire and make it consistently anwser DD Arceus Poison.
This Pokémon gets so much value against so much of the metagame and it is crazy to me how little people use it.

 

[KineSquared]

Here are the new shifts for feburary! bold changes are more than 1 tier
Arceus-Poison from A+ to S
Zacian-Hero from A+ to S
Giratina from S- to S
Arceus-Electric from A- to A+
Arceus-Dark from A to A+
Gouging Fire from B to A
Palkia-Origin from B+ to A
Spectrier from B to B+
Moltres from B to B+
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike from B- to B+
Arceus-Ice from D to B
Lugia from B- to B
Gholdengo from B- to B
Garganacl from B- to B
Mandibuzz from C+ to B
Solgaleo from B- to B
Arceus-Fighting from B- to B
Latios from C to B
Hatterene from C+ to B
Araquanid from C+ to B-
Quagsire from C- to B-
Walking Wake from C to B-
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon from C+ to B-
Reshiram from C+ to B-
Espathra from C+ to B-
Annihilape from C+ to B-
Tyranitar from C+ to B-
Corviknight from C to C+
Torkoal from C to C+
Rillaboom from C to C+
Arceus-Psychic from C- to C

Magearna from S to A+
Deoxys from A+ to A
Terapagos from A+ to B+
Urshifu from B+ to B
Palafin from B+ to B
Alomomola from A to B
Regieleki from A- to B
Cyclizar from B to C+
Sneasler from B- to C+
Arceus-Grass from B to C+
Zamazenta-Crowned from B to C+
Volcarona from C+ to C
Excadrill from C+ to C
Orthworm from C+ to C
Ogerpon from C+ to C
Slowking Galar from C+ to C
Dondozo from C+ to C
Dragonite from C to C-
Great Tusk from C to C-
Dialga from C to C-
Archaludon from C- to D
Ogerpon-Wellspring from C- to Unranked
Gastrodon from C- to C
Clodsire from B- to C+
Ditto from C to C+

Iron Bundle to A-
Samurott-Hisui to B+
Iron Treads to B
Ninetales to B
Gothitelle to C+
Mimikyu to C+
Okidogi to C+
Bronzong to C
Clefable to C
Dragapult to C
Pecharunt to C
Pelipper to C
Dugtrio to C-
Latias to C-
Regidrago to C-

 

[LovelyLuna]

Some good representation of the metagame with the S tiers, an Elecius, Gfire, & PalkiO rise, Zama and Teraapgos finally belonging in their tiers, I have one nomination Im in the mood to talk about it even with disagreements, since nominating stuff like Deoxys to S-, half the B+ tier to A-, etc would take forever and can absolutely boil down to playstyle preferences. Personal VR for those curious of wisdom/want to bully me though.

Peak

Latios from B -> A- (version 2)

Shocking its so low for speed control that covers half of the A tiers. Can come in to handle Gouging Fire, Palkia-Origin, Landorus, and obviously Deoxys & Iron Bundle. Offensive Landorus switch in, cripples switch ins with Trick, pivot for lots of momentum, has a lot of tools you'd desire from speed control. Its worst trait is that its less reliable at revenge killing Zacian than other popular speed control but all you need is good chip (if its Terad), and tricking Scarf onto Zacian to neutralise it is always an option. I think its quite a crime being ranked alongside Arceus-Fighting, Gholdengo, Regieleki, Palafin, etc. Sure they're effective Pokemon with their uses, but none as important as Latios imo. Also I think this is the first time I've proposed this but I think Tera Steel Latios might be even better than the regular Tera Dragon, resists Play Rough and immune to TB Ground so you can pick of Zacian easier and speed control that owns DD Poisonceus so hard, along with many of Latios' earlier traits. CM Latios is also a neat Pokemon and probably the best and sturdiest Landorus answer HO teams can afford.

Some questions about the lower tier Pokemon:
B- Araquanid & Annihilape? What webs innovations happened? I'd expect a drop in viability with a Giratina & Zacian rise, as well as the newly available Iron Treads.Annihilape is a Pokemon I see strictly on webs but trends also seem negative for it, with the meta being very special and a handful of the top tier physical attackers beating it.

Arceus-Grass at C+? The Pokemon has felt quite awful from my experience, with checks everywhere, its even worse with the rise of Gouging Fire and Sun. It also ends up even worse when Arceus competition is higher than any other, I'd personally D tier this thing because an Arceus slot feels like it could be so much.

Pelipper in this economy? Rain just seems way too fishy (haha) and not worth using seriously. You could argue that C-tier is for these type of Pokemon but everything else looks so much more useful with defined niches that have them even brought to tours.

Entire list of C- except for Great Tusk and maybe Dialga also seems very not worth it, can't imagine these Pokemon being used seriously.

 

[Bazingatron]

Here are the new shifts for feburary! bold changes are more than 1 tier
Arceus-Poison from A+ to S
Zacian-Hero from A+ to S
Giratina from S- to S
Arceus-Electric from A- to A+
Arceus-Dark from A to A+
Gouging Fire from B to A
Palkia-Origin from B+ to A
Spectrier from B to B+
Moltres from B to B+
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike from B- to B+
Arceus-Ice from D to B
Lugia from B- to B
Gholdengo from B- to B
Garganacl from B- to B
Mandibuzz from C+ to B
Solgaleo from B- to B
Arceus-Fighting from B- to B
Latios from C to B
Hatterene from C+ to B
Araquanid from C+ to B-
Quagsire from C- to B-
Walking Wake from C to B-
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon from C+ to B-
Reshiram from C+ to B-
Espathra from C+ to B-
Annihilape from C+ to B-
Tyranitar from C+ to B-
Corviknight from C to C+
Torkoal from C to C+
Rillaboom from C to C+
Arceus-Psychic from C- to C

Magearna from S to A+
Deoxys from A+ to A
Terapagos from A+ to B+
Urshifu from B+ to B
Palafin from B+ to B
Alomomola from A to B
Regieleki from A- to B
Cyclizar from B to C+
Sneasler from B- to C+
Arceus-Grass from B to C+
Zamazenta-Crowned from B to C+
Volcarona from C+ to C
Excadrill from C+ to C
Orthworm from C+ to C
Ogerpon from C+ to C
Slowking Galar from C+ to C
Dondozo from C+ to C
Dragonite from C to C-
Great Tusk from C to C-
Dialga from C to C-
Archaludon from C- to D
Ogerpon-Wellspring from C- to Unranked
Gastrodon from C- to C
Clodsire from B- to C+
Ditto from C to C+

Iron Bundle to A-
Samurott-Hisui to B+
Iron Treads to B
Ninetales to B
Gothitelle to C+
Mimikyu to C+
Okidogi to C+
Bronzong to C
Clefable to C
Dragapult to C
Pecharunt to C
Pelipper to C
Dugtrio to C-
Latias to C-
Regidrago to C-

Shouldn't Gouging Fire be bolded since B to A is two tiers?

 

[LovelyLuna]

Same for PalkiaO and Mandibuzz

While Im here free tiermaker: https://tiermaker.com/create/updated-ubers-uu-1572430-2

 

[OceanicGamer]

Magearna from S to A+

The queen has fallen

 

[Leo Justice]

Some questions about the lower tier Pokemon:
B- Araquanid & Annihilape? What webs innovations happened? I'd expect a drop in viability with a Giratina & Zacian rise, as well as the newly available Iron Treads.Annihilape is a Pokemon I see strictly on webs but trends also seem negative for it, with the meta being very special and a handful of the top tier physical attackers beating it.

Actually, webs really likes the rise of Zacian because a lot of them are starting to not run boots anymore since Lum berry is getting way more usage. So zacian stops being a terrible match up once it stops running hdb

Webs teams are usually designed to beat Tina anyways, they're full of taunt Mons and pokemon that can hit it for SE or use it as set up bait. Additionally, any cheap damage on Tina is incredibly valuable for webs as they usually run ekiller.

Arceus-Grass at C+? The Pokemon has felt quite awful from my experience, with checks everywhere, its even worse with the rise of Gouging Fire and Sun. It also ends up even worse when Arceus competition is higher than any other, I'd personally D tier this thing because an Arceus slot feels like it could be so much.

I'd argue that that's not the case. It's an Arceus that is neutral into zacian and hits it for SE after tera ground which is valuable for revenging it without the need of a scarfer. It's not always the best option but C+ is a fine place to be (even if I disagree with it personally). Having it be D tier is just incredibly harsh because it has its uses due to being an Arceus that can run THE SET alongside resisting ground (especially with the fact that lots of landos are dropping sludge and nasty plot). It's a terrifying late game sweeper, and a lot of it's 'checks' are fake checks if it gets to set up once they're cheaped down by hazards besides Gouging fire (and even then, if it's 2 attacks like EP, gouging is not a check anymore). It has too much versatility and role compression to ever end up in D tier.

 

[Finchely]

Personal thoughts asw as a response to some of Luna's stuff

arceus-poison

Def an A tier Pokemon, not really S material tho imo. It's very strong, but not so great and splashable that it really feels like an S tier. Offensively it's strong, but tends to get checked by Landorus and the now-popular Roar Giratina. Defensively, it's fallen off a bit ever since Zacian started to use TB ground all the time. Furthermore, the slow rise in popularity of Ursaluna does it no favors. I'm not at all saying that Arceus-Poison is bad by any means, but I just don't see how it's gotten any better to justify its rise to S tier

terapagos

This mon just has not been it lately. Giratina's omnipresence does it no favors, and Alomomola's drop in viability hurts too. It still does fine as an anti-offense mon, but that's about it it feels like. Although B+ is a pretty big drop from it's former A+ status, I'd argue that it isn't really enough. B+ is still the home of many tier staples, that Terapagos just hasn't felt as reliable as for some time now. I'd argue that Terapagos is really more of a B- mon right now.

latios

Latios from B -> A- (version 2)

Shocking its so low for speed control that covers half of the A tiers. Can come in to handle Gouging Fire, Palkia-Origin, Landorus, and obviously Deoxys & Iron Bundle. Offensive Landorus switch in, cripples switch ins with Trick, pivot for lots of momentum, has a lot of tools you'd desire from speed control. Its worst trait is that its less reliable at revenge killing Zacian than other popular speed control but all you need is good chip (if its Terad), and tricking Scarf onto Zacian to neutralise it is always an option. I think its quite a crime being ranked alongside Arceus-Fighting, Gholdengo, Regieleki, Palafin, etc. Sure they're effective Pokemon with their uses, but none as important as Latios imo. Also I think this is the first time I've proposed this but I think Tera Steel Latios might be even better than the regular Tera Dragon, resists Play Rough and immune to TB Ground so you can pick of Zacian easier and speed control that owns DD Poisonceus so hard, along with many of Latios' earlier traits. CM Latios is also a neat Pokemon and probably the best and sturdiest Landorus answer HO teams can afford.

Latios is pretty good right now, but is not really as reliable as you make it out to be. Truth be told, I did put it as B+ when we did the VR slate, but minute differences aren't terribly important and I digress. Anyways, Latios can handle Gouging after a DD, but also has to hit Draco Meteor, and also hope that that Gouging doesn't Tera. Latios has similar issues with Palkia-O, but also has trouble if Palkia-O has a substitute up, which is why Zacian is generally just the preferred check. Latios is a great Landorus check for offense and bulky offense teams, but it's also not perfect. Once Landorus sets stealth rock, Latios' ability to switch into Psychics greatly diminishes. Latios can also struggle to force progress sometimes, due to the fact that it isn't that strong relative to Ubers UU standards. Its complete lack of ability to hit Magearna and Solgaleo is also rather damning, due to the fact that you're forced to flip turn to gain momentum. This combination of lack of power alongside needing to use flip turn to avoid thudding into Mag and Solg means that you're sometimes forced to make awkward plays, since the opponent might just stay in cause Draco isn't a kill from full. And yes, Latios does have trick, but this is a very risky move to click. For one, it gives Arceus a free turn if the opponent gets the turn right. Furthermore, it also leaves you without speed control, and can potentially open up your team to the opponent's offense. CM Tera Steel Latios is something I haven't thought about before, but I still fail to see how it is able to break Magearna or Solgaleo, or even just something like Arceus-Dark. The final issue I have with Latios, is just how precarious the Zacian matchup can be sometimes. It almost feels like you can never afford to click Draco sometimes, due to the fact that doing so gives the freest opportunity for an opponent's Zacian to SD. And when it comes to revenging Zacian, Pre-Tera, you need to get a lot of chip on Zacian in order to kill with Psychic. Post-Tera, you only need a decent amount of chip in order to kill with Draco. The issue? It's pretty difficult to chip Zacian at all. Zacian's presence in the tier is the biggest reason I think that Latios is held back right now, and deserving of its placement in B rank

speed round

Yea idk what this mon is really doing. Webs has gotten a little better as of late, but not because of Ape. In fact we're seeing Ape-less webs sometimes. It still struggles with Arceus-Poison and all of the crazy special wallbreakers we have in the tier, and remains a C tier pokemon in my mind.

Arceus-Grass at C+? The Pokemon has felt quite awful from my experience, with checks everywhere, its even worse with the rise of Gouging Fire and Sun. It also ends up even worse when Arceus competition is higher than any other, I'd personally D tier this thing because an Arceus slot feels like it could be so much.

It's not great, but in the end it is still an Arceus. Cracked bulk, cracked movepool, and can fill the niches of being a decent Landorus and Palkia-O check. Again, it's not good, but you can slot it in to fill some specific roles that nothing else really does the same way. Zacian TB fire sets are also becoming a little more uncommon, and the standard TB ground set can't kill Arc-Grass from full, meanwhile Arc-Grass does a shit ton of damage with supereffective Judgment.

Pelipper in this economy? Rain just seems way too fishy (haha) and not worth using seriously. You could argue that C-tier is for these type of Pokemon but everything else looks so much more useful with defined niches that have them even brought to tours.

Again, it's not great, but it's useable. Rain that is. While the archetype as a whole isn't very good, it's undeniable that rain boosted Palkia-O is a complete nightmare to try and switch into, without the help of niche picks in Clodsire or Gastrodon. Rain isn't an at all integral part of the metagame, but the fact that it can be successfully brought at all is why Pelipper is ranked. I don't have any qualms with ranking it C- ftr.


I won't lie, I have no clue what this thing does. It was brought up in VR council chat, everybody said shit about how bad it seemed, and nobody actually offered any specific arguments for its viability asides from the fact that it was brought to and won a tournament game. C- is the tier of like, "yes it technically exists in the metagame, but there's really just no reason to ever use it", which seems fine for drago i guess, since I really just don't understand why anyone would bring it, but it apparently has a place in our meta.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Actually, webs really likes the rise of Zacian because a lot of them are starting to not run boots anymore since Lum berry is getting way more usage. So zacian stops being a terrible match up once it stops running hdb

Webs teams are usually designed to beat Tina anyways, they're full of taunt Mons and pokemon that can hit it for SE or use it as set up bait. Additionally, any cheap damage on Tina is incredibly valuable for webs as they usually run ekiller.

Letting a Pokemon set up or hit you for a little chunk (Annihilape) is pretty much always worth the defog imo, a lack of webs should enable your faster Pokemon to come in and swoop a kill. I do believe Zacian is still running Boots about half the time though (Ladder stats support this but thats ladder.)

I'd argue that that's not the case. It's an Arceus that is neutral into zacian and hits it for SE after tera ground which is valuable for revenging it without the need of a scarfer. It's not always the best option but C+ is a fine place to be (even if I disagree with it personally). Having it be D tier is just incredibly harsh because it has its uses due to being an Arceus that can run THE SET alongside resisting ground (especially with the fact that lots of landos are dropping sludge and nasty plot). It's a terrifying late game sweeper, and a lot of it's 'checks' are fake checks if it gets to set up once they're cheaped down by hazards besides Gouging fire (and even then, if it's 2 attacks like EP, gouging is not a check anymore). It has too much versatility and role compression to ever end up in D tier.

It's not great, but in the end it is still an Arceus. Cracked bulk, cracked movepool, and can fill the niches of being a decent Landorus and Palkia-O check. Again, it's not good, but you can slot it in to fill some specific roles that nothing else really does the same way. Zacian TB fire sets are also becoming a little more uncommon, and the standard TB ground set can't kill Arc-Grass from full, meanwhile Arc-Grass does a shit ton of damage with supereffective Judgment.

I think Arceus-Ice just kind of does everything said here better, except for the ground resist bit ofc but I doubt teams have a difficult time fitting one of the many flyers or even just Giratina as their Landorus answer. Mono Judgement also gets hard answered by Arceus-Poison & Ogerpon-H, even loses to Roaring Moon and Chi-Yu, it's defiinitely not just Gouging Fire who holds it back. It can slot EP to alleviate some of these but getting my Arceus or Gouging hit by Earth Power on the switch (Only way it beats them) just makes me go "oh" and switch to my Flying type or Giratina to phase it out. There are Pokemon that beat both sets effectively, like CM Arceus-Ice, Kyurem-White, a pivoted in Encore Iron Bundle, and probably more I forgot about. I think being an Arceus is its biggest issue, because using your Arceus slot for Arceus-Grass is pretty much a complete waste, I can be generous and say it holds on to C- like the other weird stuff.

Again, it's not great, but it's useable. Rain that is. While the archetype as a whole isn't very good, it's undeniable that rain boosted Palkia-O is a complete nightmare to try and switch into, without the help of niche picks in Clodsire or Gastrodon. Rain isn't an at all integral part of the metagame, but the fact that it can be successfully brought at all is why Pelipper is ranked. I don't have any qualms with ranking it C- ftr.

Tbh I don't think there are any more notable Pokemon that switch into Palkia-O without rain, I imagine you can just use a better squad by ditching Pelipper.

I won't lie, I have no clue what this thing does. It was brought up in VR council chat, everybody said shit about how bad it seemed, and nobody actually offered any specific arguments for its viability asides from the fact that it was brought to and won a tournament game. C- is the tier of like, "yes it technically exists in the metagame, but there's really just no reason to ever use it", which seems fine for drago i guess, since I really just don't understand why anyone would bring it, but it apparently has a place in our meta.
[/spoiler]

Garchomp and Cresselia had the same usage, and then Pokemon like Mew, Iron Crown, Lycanroc, and Morgrem pulled off a win in UUbers PL. I personally dont think a Pokemon should be ranked for the ridiculously small success, especially considering the other unviable stuff brought, but that's just me!

Latios is pretty good right now, but is not really as reliable as you make it out to be. Truth be told, I did put it as B+ when we did the VR slate, but minute differences aren't terribly important and I digress. Anyways, Latios can handle Gouging after a DD, but also has to hit Draco Meteor, and also hope that that Gouging doesn't Tera. Latios has similar issues with Palkia-O, but also has trouble if Palkia-O has a substitute up, which is why Zacian is generally just the preferred check. Latios is a great Landorus check for offense and bulky offense teams, but it's also not perfect. Once Landorus sets stealth rock, Latios' ability to switch into Psychics greatly diminishes. Latios can also struggle to force progress sometimes, due to the fact that it isn't that strong relative to Ubers UU standards. Its complete lack of ability to hit Magearna and Solgaleo is also rather damning, due to the fact that you're forced to flip turn to gain momentum. This combination of lack of power alongside needing to use flip turn to avoid thudding into Mag and Solg means that you're sometimes forced to make awkward plays, since the opponent might just stay in cause Draco isn't a kill from full. And yes, Latios does have trick, but this is a very risky move to click. For one, it gives Arceus a free turn if the opponent gets the turn right. Furthermore, it also leaves you without speed control, and can potentially open up your team to the opponent's offense. CM Tera Steel Latios is something I haven't thought about before, but I still fail to see how it is able to break Magearna or Solgaleo, or even just something like Arceus-Dark. The final issue I have with Latios, is just how precarious the Zacian matchup can be sometimes. It almost feels like you can never afford to click Draco sometimes, due to the fact that doing so gives the freest opportunity for an opponent's Zacian to SD. And when it comes to revenging Zacian, Pre-Tera, you need to get a lot of chip on Zacian in order to kill with Psychic. Post-Tera, you only need a decent amount of chip in order to kill with Draco. The issue? It's pretty difficult to chip Zacian at all. Zacian's presence in the tier is the biggest reason I think that Latios is held back right now, and deserving of its placement in B rank

I think Draco Meteor's slight inaccuracy can be ignored considering bwe play Ubers UU. Zacian's Play Rough, Deoxys' Psycho Boost, and Chi-Yu's Fire Blast are all moves from A tier Pokemon constantly used for revenge killing. Tera and Substitute are definitely factors, but I'd say they're just factors that the majority of speed control has to face, I'd say Latios's ability to threaten so many things is still very worth it. While Latios can't constantly switch into Psychic, the offensive teams shouldn't be giving Landorus like 5 opportunities to come in, only exceptions are HO teams that want to use Calm Mind Latios anyway. I think losing momentum bar pivots is another flaw in speed control rather than just Latios, Landorus can thud into a Moltres or Mandibuzz, Urshifu-R into Giratina, and Chi-Yu/Landorus have to often hard switch after picking off a Pokemon, giving free turns. I think Trick can be okay by the time Latios covers for their speed control, especially since the Arceus formes shouldn't sweep when given a free turn. Tera Steel CM Latios can't break those but its a CM Pokemon that can 1v1 CM Arceus and Recovery helps it outlast Pokemon like Magearna, Solgaleo, and the Landorus it always checks. I can get the Zacian match up is far less than great, If you're Tera Dragon, the chip can be from hitting Molt with Wild Charge or taking 2 layers of spikes if its Lum. I do think Tricking Zacian is also viable, as thats similar to removing the threat. I definitely don't think it belongs with the rest of the B-tier Pokemon at least, as many of them have far less defined niches and less useful instances.

Tysm to both of you for the responses