aint much to say. We lost some good ones, but finally Cyclizar's rule has come to a (partial) end. We're so back
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Metagame SV RU Metagame Discussion (October Shifts #327)
- Thread starter Feliburn
- Start date
How has it come to an end?
The vacuum left by some of the departures has made one pokemon significantly better. One Lord Chester Naughttingham III.
Moltres being gone helps it, but the big deal is Cobalion leaving and what that promotes. Chesnaught can fill in for cobalion as a bulky fighting type and pretty importantly as a hazard setter that scares Cyclizar. But even more important is how it beats some mons that got better. Bisharp Is being called a problem and Chesnaught handles it better than anything else can hope, and Crawdaunt which is also mad underrated and is due for an increase in usage.
The ol' reliable body press, knock, spikes, synth set is still fine, but I've been thinking about other moves like leech seed (either with or without spiky shield) and wood hammer for Slowbro. It feels like Chesnaught has so many luxury moves while also really hating to get rid of any of the core 4, but I feel like you can ditch spikes or knock off on the right team.
Moltres being gone helps it, but the big deal is Cobalion leaving and what that promotes. Chesnaught can fill in for cobalion as a bulky fighting type and pretty importantly as a hazard setter that scares Cyclizar. But even more important is how it beats some mons that got better. Bisharp Is being called a problem and Chesnaught handles it better than anything else can hope, and Crawdaunt which is also mad underrated and is due for an increase in usage.
The ol' reliable body press, knock, spikes, synth set is still fine, but I've been thinking about other moves like leech seed (either with or without spiky shield) and wood hammer for Slowbro. It feels like Chesnaught has so many luxury moves while also really hating to get rid of any of the core 4, but I feel like you can ditch spikes or knock off on the right team.
If Chesnaught got good, Salamence got better.
I don't have fancy calcs but I do have:
>
Because of this, Salamence must have also risen in usage. Sets could include:
Dragon Dance ~ Dual Wingbeat ~ Filler
or
Hurricane ~ Coverage ~ Utility
Pokemon always teases every gen with increasingly strong-but-quircky Flying STAB for Salamence. This gen is pretty solid with Salamence Flying STAB. Because this gen has not hoed Salamence, and Chesnaught's Viability has risen this patch, Salamence's viability must have also increased tremendously.
As long as they exist in the same tier, Salamence will usurp the popularity of Chester Naughtingham, any generation.
I don't have fancy calcs but I do have:
>Because of this, Salamence must have also risen in usage. Sets could include:
Dragon Dance ~ Dual Wingbeat ~ Filler
or
Hurricane ~ Coverage ~ Utility
Pokemon always teases every gen with increasingly strong-but-quircky Flying STAB for Salamence. This gen is pretty solid with Salamence Flying STAB. Because this gen has not hoed Salamence, and Chesnaught's Viability has risen this patch, Salamence's viability must have also increased tremendously.
As long as they exist in the same tier, Salamence will usurp the popularity of Chester Naughtingham, any generation.
fluff's Bazaar part 3234154
Hello RU citizens, today, I am back with the goal to once again not let the forum die.
This time, this post is going to be a potpourri of sets, teambuilding experiences and thoughts about the metagame at large, there is a lot to read so let's dive straight in.
I - Random mons
 | |
| Okidogi @ Leftovers Ability: Toxic Chain / Guard Dog Tera Type: Water EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Spe Adamant Nature - Bulk Up - Poison Jab - Drain Punch - Knock Off / Psychic Fangs / Taunt | Okidogi @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band Ability: Toxic Chain Tera Type: Dark EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Close Combat - Gunk Shot - Knock Off - Psychic Fangs |
Hey hey kids, have you ever wanted a mon that could bring insane offensive pressure with 128 base Atk, elite coverage, a Knock Off that can spread toxic poison, 88/115/86 bulk with a great defensive typing, and a Bulk Up win condition, all in one mon? Well, in any other generation, I would call you delusional, but as it turns out, it is exactly what Okidogi brings, and it is just as broken as it looks.
If Leftovers isn't your thing and you like beeg numbers, Oki can also run a Choice set, with Scarf bringing all the defensive utility and Knock Off/poisoning traits Okidoki as, but now it also outruns everything, or go full on damage with Choice Band, abusing broken low risk/high reward STABs in Close Combat and Gunk Shot off of 128 base Atk. There is next to 0 reason to not slap this thing on any non-HO and non-Stall team. Just pick the set that fits best and go wild. I'll share a sample team with Okidogi later in this post.
 |  |
| Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Intimidate Tera Type: Steel EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Draco Meteor - Hurricane - Earthquake - Roost | Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Infiltrator Tera Type: Steel EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Draco Meteor - Hurricane - Flamethrower / U-turn - Roost |
Same ideas, some differences ; One has Earthquake and Intimidate, the other is faster than Cyclizar and has U-turn.
These are on par with Volcanion in terms of balance breaking potential, as Fairies don't exist in RU, letting them spam Draco Meteor on everything without much risk, and can hit Steels too with their coverage options. DD Mence is kind of a meme imo, but Salamence's usage is definitely justified.
These two can be a bit of a headache on the builder when trying to handle them, with the answer generally being "Let's hope Jirachi can tank for long enough and get Body Slam paras". It does let some less popular picks shine though, such as Bronzong, who's safe against anything from both of them (and has the added benefit of walling DD Mence completely), and Umbreon, who similarily tanks everything well enough.
Hurricane has obvious consistency issues though, which may deter some people from running these mons in high-stake games.
Bisharp @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fairy / Flying / Ghost / Dark
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Throat Chop / Low Kick / Tera Blast
HO is popular = Bisharp good ; Psychics good = Bisharp good ; Cobalion gone = Bisharp good ; Tera exists = Bisharp even better.
The maths are simple, and the unstoppable rise of Bisharp reflects the results of the equation. Not only does Bisharp hit hard, it also is quite bulky and sports a useful defensive profile, with immunities to Psychic and Poison as well as a plethora of resistances in Dark, Dragon, Flying, Steel, Ghost and Grass, letting it find plenty of opportunities to enter the field against many walls and offensive mons. Granted, the switches are sometimes risky due to common coverage options like Focus Blast, or simply the many secondary STAB Close Combats flying around, but just the threat of the possibility of a Bisharp switch-in on a resisted hit does a LOT in the mindgame war, even against mons like Choice Okidogi/Gapdos. Swords Dance + Sucker Punch is kinda broken and forces Encore users like Jirachi to play on a minefield due to the threat of a straight Throat Chop. Overall, Bisharp forces a ton of awkward situations for the opponent and has lost one of its biggest roadblocks in Cobalion, and it is no surprise to see it at the top of the food chain in RU ; Not to mention that Bisharp is one of the prime abusers of Tera to get rid of its Fighting weakness, often forcing scouting for Tera from the opponent ; which is only natural, but you still have to tank a +2 Bisharp, piling up on the awkward playarounds. Sometimes, the best way to handle Bisharp is to have your own Low Kick Bisharp, and... wait, I have already seen that one before...
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Wish / Moonlight
- Protect / Moonlight / Taunt
- Toxic / Taunt
Handles both of Blastoise and Revavroom at the same time which is great against HO, Inner Focus allows it to consistently threaten Jirachi, and has the added benefit of premium support options in Wish, Taunt, and Toxic. Also handles Salamence and Noivern well enough. Umbreon is currently gaining traction and being seen as one of the best walls in the tier currently, which is great news for the tier as it now finally has another viable Wish user, enabling new Wish cores Jirachi couldn't make work due to overlapping type weaknesses.
 |  |
| Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Levitate Tera Type: Steel EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Overheat - Volt Switch - Nasty Plot - Will-O-Wisp / Pain Split | Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf Ability: Levitate Tera Type: Steel EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Leaf Storm - Volt Switch - Discharge - Trick |
Rototototom is neat, I think. Rotom-Mow has somewhat seen a rise in usage so I'm including it because it's funny. Regardless, NP Rotom-Heat is still a very strong pick and an excellent lead against non-HO teams, esp if going for the no Pain Split version. So yea, just reminding you all that Rotom is still good and always has been.
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Flash Cannon
- Knock Off
A special tank in RU? I'll take it. Still walls most of what base Goodra does, although Hoodra has to invest more in Speed than base Goodra and handles some mons like Focus Blast Thundurus a bit worse, but trades this for free ins against stuff like Fezandipiti and unboosted Armarouge. I cannot stress enough how great having an actual AV special tank is HUGE. It finally gives an incentive to use something else than AV Cyclizar to answer all of
all in one slot with much more reliability for Offense teams. (base Goodra could do most of that too but I guess people didn't want to try it out despite my best efforts...)
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
The new Defogger and perfect Krookodile answer in town. This one I'm less sure of, it doesn't have the physical bulk necessary to be safe against most of our wallbreakers and has no offensive pressure, although Levitate + Tera Steel is as good as always to stonewall Revavroom. I'm still waiting to see if it finds a place in the metagame or not before speaking.
II - Teambuilding adventures
Just prefacing this by saying that I'm a Balance/Fat player, don't expect to see HO teams here.
Ok so my first advice is to use Okidogi on everything that isn't HO or Stall. 0 reason not to. And if you really don't want to, run Bisharp.
Anyway, I have realized that a lot of my teams ended gearing towards a Hippowdon/Amoonguss/Reuniclus and Hippowdon/Slowbro cores. Running dual physical walls feels just as important as ever, betwenn Bisharp's rise to prominence, all the Fighting wallbreakers still being there, and Revavroom being a b!tch. Umbreon is now a respected pick that is being experimented with and is showing great potential, I'll keep you updated on that.
Here is some sample teams using the Amoonguss/Reuniclus/Hippowdon core, that I will henceforth refer to as ARCH (Amoonguss/Reuniclus/Cyclizar/Hippowdon):
ARCH Diancie + Nasty Plot Lucario
ARCH MixMence + Scarf Okidogi(click the sprites for paste!)
ARCH + Diancie has a strong hazard game, with Spikes Diancie beating every hazard removal option outside of Geezing. SpDef Diancie allows Cyclizar to run boots, sticking for a long time against bulky teams to remove hazards. Nasty Plot Lucario is a great mon to bait in the likes of Slowbro and Hippowdon in, just to blast them with a +2 Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon. You can also use a Swords Dance Lucario instead, with Swords Dance/Close Combat/Extreme Speed/Crunch and Tera Normal. As a rule of thumb, SD Lucario is better against HO, NP Lucario is better against the rest.
Replay 1 | Replay 2 (These two replays use the physical SD Lucario variant).
ARCH MixMence + Scarf Okidogi is a more offensive variant with a solid Ground immunity in MixMence and Scarf Okidogi bringing some speed control with the added defensive utility and Knock Off + Toxic Chain progress making + being a Bisharp answer should Hippowdon get overwhelmed. Tera Steel on Cyclizar or Salamence for Gardevoir.
III - Where we at
I like the current meta! It seems that Hippowdon is back on top after a period of doubt, so that's nice to see. Blastoise and Revavroom are still cringe and no one would miss them if we banned them, but fat teams don't have much trouble handling them. HO is still extremely boring to play though. Yanmega is not good until it is and flinches 5 times in a row, which is stupid and shouldn't be a thing and again, no one would miss it if it were gone (queue the super live tour finals game 1).
Outside of these 3 though, playing the tier is fun (NOT ON LADDER THOUGH) and I think RU is one of the more competitive SV tiers (much more tha OU and UU, that's for sure). So, uuuuh... good job everyone we did it! woooo
special s/o to my goats FlamingoPokeman, Elec-ant1234, Canard and Lyra, as well as everyone else on the psim room and the discord :] (you still haven't beaten the meanie allegations, tsuki)
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hello
for anyone who has played ru in the recent months, you likely have noticed the popularity of HO. In the most recent round of ru swiss ~20% of teams are traditional HO (meaning weather teams don't count) and in ~40% of games, at least one player is using HO. to anyone who has played ladder at all, the amount of HO is almost unbearable, as vocalized by Feliburn and other posters in this forum. Some may point to the nature of the gen being inherently favorable to HO and I'm sure in ou tournaments, there is an even greater concentration of HO as well, but I think what makes OU HO's "more tolerable" is that they are unique, they aren't fixed to a specific set of pokemon. I've watched a lot of WCOP recently and there are fun techs and unique pokemon on most of these HOs. I do not believe the same can be said about the HO situation in RU though. There are tons of rehashes of Maushold, Kleavor, Revavroom, Yanmega, Terrakion, Blastoise, etc... and it makes the tier what i believe to be undesirable at the moment. Some may attribute the blandness of current traditional HO to laziness within the player base, but this flavor of HO has existed throughout RUPL, RU Open, and now RU Swiss (interestingly I don't think its seen as much in RUGL, which is a separate topic), and I don't foresee it going away. There have been calls for teams to use priority as a mean of handling HO, but HO can and has simply adapted with new techs like psychic terrain or simply increasing their yanmega usage, which generally does well into most priority with protect/natural resistances. HO at its current state is overbearing and oppressive and makes the tier unappealing. I believe tiering action is required to change the current dynamic and I believe the suggestions below will help make the tier much more stable and frankly, enjoyable.
I first and primarily suggest a Maushold ban. The perception of Maushold being a simple cheese pokemon with a silly move is incorrect; this pokemon enables HO in a very unique way. It outright requires rocky helmet (or flame body) to be used on every balance/BO team, which has become more difficult with the exit of Cobalion and Moltres. Maushold's ability to restrict item choice is unhealthy and often leads certain defensive walls to use a suboptimal item for the purpose of salvaging one specific match up. Those who suggest using ghost types are misguided, as the 90bp flinch button, especially at +1, is potent enough to be mentioned. This itself isn't a huge deal, nor is it the primary issue with Maushold, but it further restricts these structures for HO to capitalize from. The primary issue with Maushold is Tidy Up. Tidy Up not only gives Maushold a dragon dance, which can clean teams under the right circumstances, but also removes all hazards from the field. At first on a kleavor-maushold structure, tidy up may seem counterintuitive and to an extent it is, but it almost creates two modes of play, one mode being where rocks are on both sides, (which is often possible for the balance user against a kleavor lead but is also achievable against some of the more stricter hazard controlling leads such as froslass or terrakion), and the other being where rocks are not present on either sides. There are times where HO wants hazards on the field, and there are times where it doesnt and this 'lead x maushold' combo gives the user control over this. This is crucial as there are common HO pokemon that are much more effective when stealth rocks are absent on its side, most notably yanmega, but other pokemon that rely on their bulk to take a hit to set up also appreciate their absence, such as Blastoise. Maushold enables these HO threats to be as consistent as they are because of this move, as stealth rocks are one of the best ways to help manage them. I believe this easy tool for hazard removal for HO is the largest contributor to its prominence in the current metagame. It also has access to encore and is one of the fastest users of the move, which further limits HO counterplay as one cannot simply boost defensive stats mindlessly, as well as the other applications of the move.
The other pokemon, that I mentioned above, that should be considered for a potential suspect is Blastoise. Blastoise is quite frankly a brainless tera bot that has relatively good bulk, especially in conjunction with white herb, that has the power and coverage to break past most of the tier. I remember opening sv channels in RUPL and RUGL and seeing my teammates asking, "hey what checks blastoise xd?" multiple times and I could never really give a good response. I do think being proactive and denying blastoise setup is the best counterplay, but the aforementioned bulk and pure water typing make this difficult. Blastoise is also very adaptable to metagame trends. We have recently seen a rise in EQ usage for goodra-hisui, but it can do other things such as tera blast electric/grass, it can run protect for first impression uses or substitute for sucker punch, and it can run a variety of other coverage moves amongst other things. Torrent is also scary too as it isn't difficult to knock stoise into that range, only for the surf you took 40% from to do 60%, but this is manageable, yet still adding another roadblock for managing it. Its splashablity is another plus, as HO teams are always looking for water resists to help the rain mu any way they can. Usually, I would relegate blastoise to a brainless terabot, but these traits make it exceptional to a degree I don't believe is consistently manageable for the tier at the moment.
At the current moment, I oppose all other HO related bans until Maushold and to a lesser extent blastoise are removed.
for anyone who has played ru in the recent months, you likely have noticed the popularity of HO. In the most recent round of ru swiss ~20% of teams are traditional HO (meaning weather teams don't count) and in ~40% of games, at least one player is using HO. to anyone who has played ladder at all, the amount of HO is almost unbearable, as vocalized by Feliburn and other posters in this forum. Some may point to the nature of the gen being inherently favorable to HO and I'm sure in ou tournaments, there is an even greater concentration of HO as well, but I think what makes OU HO's "more tolerable" is that they are unique, they aren't fixed to a specific set of pokemon. I've watched a lot of WCOP recently and there are fun techs and unique pokemon on most of these HOs. I do not believe the same can be said about the HO situation in RU though. There are tons of rehashes of Maushold, Kleavor, Revavroom, Yanmega, Terrakion, Blastoise, etc... and it makes the tier what i believe to be undesirable at the moment. Some may attribute the blandness of current traditional HO to laziness within the player base, but this flavor of HO has existed throughout RUPL, RU Open, and now RU Swiss (interestingly I don't think its seen as much in RUGL, which is a separate topic), and I don't foresee it going away. There have been calls for teams to use priority as a mean of handling HO, but HO can and has simply adapted with new techs like psychic terrain or simply increasing their yanmega usage, which generally does well into most priority with protect/natural resistances. HO at its current state is overbearing and oppressive and makes the tier unappealing. I believe tiering action is required to change the current dynamic and I believe the suggestions below will help make the tier much more stable and frankly, enjoyable.
I first and primarily suggest a Maushold ban. The perception of Maushold being a simple cheese pokemon with a silly move is incorrect; this pokemon enables HO in a very unique way. It outright requires rocky helmet (or flame body) to be used on every balance/BO team, which has become more difficult with the exit of Cobalion and Moltres. Maushold's ability to restrict item choice is unhealthy and often leads certain defensive walls to use a suboptimal item for the purpose of salvaging one specific match up. Those who suggest using ghost types are misguided, as the 90bp flinch button, especially at +1, is potent enough to be mentioned. This itself isn't a huge deal, nor is it the primary issue with Maushold, but it further restricts these structures for HO to capitalize from. The primary issue with Maushold is Tidy Up. Tidy Up not only gives Maushold a dragon dance, which can clean teams under the right circumstances, but also removes all hazards from the field. At first on a kleavor-maushold structure, tidy up may seem counterintuitive and to an extent it is, but it almost creates two modes of play, one mode being where rocks are on both sides, (which is often possible for the balance user against a kleavor lead but is also achievable against some of the more stricter hazard controlling leads such as froslass or terrakion), and the other being where rocks are not present on either sides. There are times where HO wants hazards on the field, and there are times where it doesnt and this 'lead x maushold' combo gives the user control over this. This is crucial as there are common HO pokemon that are much more effective when stealth rocks are absent on its side, most notably yanmega, but other pokemon that rely on their bulk to take a hit to set up also appreciate their absence, such as Blastoise. Maushold enables these HO threats to be as consistent as they are because of this move, as stealth rocks are one of the best ways to help manage them. I believe this easy tool for hazard removal for HO is the largest contributor to its prominence in the current metagame. It also has access to encore and is one of the fastest users of the move, which further limits HO counterplay as one cannot simply boost defensive stats mindlessly, as well as the other applications of the move.
The other pokemon, that I mentioned above, that should be considered for a potential suspect is Blastoise. Blastoise is quite frankly a brainless tera bot that has relatively good bulk, especially in conjunction with white herb, that has the power and coverage to break past most of the tier. I remember opening sv channels in RUPL and RUGL and seeing my teammates asking, "hey what checks blastoise xd?" multiple times and I could never really give a good response. I do think being proactive and denying blastoise setup is the best counterplay, but the aforementioned bulk and pure water typing make this difficult. Blastoise is also very adaptable to metagame trends. We have recently seen a rise in EQ usage for goodra-hisui, but it can do other things such as tera blast electric/grass, it can run protect for first impression uses or substitute for sucker punch, and it can run a variety of other coverage moves amongst other things. Torrent is also scary too as it isn't difficult to knock stoise into that range, only for the surf you took 40% from to do 60%, but this is manageable, yet still adding another roadblock for managing it. Its splashablity is another plus, as HO teams are always looking for water resists to help the rain mu any way they can. Usually, I would relegate blastoise to a brainless terabot, but these traits make it exceptional to a degree I don't believe is consistently manageable for the tier at the moment.
At the current moment, I oppose all other HO related bans until Maushold and to a lesser extent blastoise are removed.
Just wanted to support oyster's post with which I fully agree with by testifying that ladder is currently UNPLAYABLE. I am not exaggerating when I say that SV RU is by FAR the least enjoyable ladder of all official tiers ladders and is comprised of 95% of classic HO and Rain HO. I know that HO is popular on every ladder by definition, but... have you played any other official tier on ladder? I just stopped playing on the RU ladder altogether and now only play with people on the psim room now, which is not a bad thing per se, but ladder shouldn't be repulsive, period. Let's just say I have a theory for why RU has consistently been, if not one of, the single least played official tier for a while now.
I will add Yanmega to the obvious Maushold / Blastoise issues, Tera helps Yanmega to an unreasonable degree and renders the vast majority of its checks and counters inefficient at handling it (It's only Chansey left, really). It also has straight up First Impression immunity and promotes flinch2win gameplay. The amount of games stolen by Yanmega flinching a Dragon Tail AV Cyclizar or a desperate Hippowdon Whirlwind/Stone Edge attempt keeps me up at night. If you know of an actual Yanmega counter that doesn't outright require Tera to work, I'm all ears. Stealth Rock is not an answer btw, Maushold and Cinccino exist.
I will add Yanmega to the obvious Maushold / Blastoise issues, Tera helps Yanmega to an unreasonable degree and renders the vast majority of its checks and counters inefficient at handling it (It's only Chansey left, really). It also has straight up First Impression immunity and promotes flinch2win gameplay. The amount of games stolen by Yanmega flinching a Dragon Tail AV Cyclizar or a desperate Hippowdon Whirlwind/Stone Edge attempt keeps me up at night. If you know of an actual Yanmega counter that doesn't outright require Tera to work, I'm all ears. Stealth Rock is not an answer btw, Maushold and Cinccino exist.
While I generally think balance and bulky offense are still equipped to deal with the HO goons in the tier, I do believe we should evaluate HO as a whole and see what can be done to make it less oppressive in-game and in the builder. An underrated element of the recent tier shifts is the utility that Cobalion brought to the tier not really having a direct replacement - yes, it was an exceptional physical wall that could set rocks, IronPress, Volt, CM, etc., but the biggest thing it could do against HO was fast Taunt. Nothing on HO liked to be Taunted when facing Cobalion, namely Blastoise, Mimikyu, and Revavroom. Losing a fast defensive presence like that hurts bulky offense especially because you're forced to trade more often than you'd like since you have limited options to stop setup attempts. Moltres and Rhyperior also left, of course, but I think Cobalion was the most notable given what it could do, although it was also an option for HO teams as a suicide lead late in the last meta so it kind of balances out.
The options of dealing with HO remain pretty similar to previous shifts: strong priority, solid defensive backbones, and phazing where possible. Assault Vest Cyclizar is still a great tool for teams needing the role compression. We've seen a shift to some Galarian Weezing and Noivern Defog teams of late, though they lack a way to phaze stuff like Blastoise at +2. Amoonguss, Hippowdon, and Slowbro all retain their previous viability and bulkier offensive Pokemon like Okidogi and Salamence (namely, mixed Salamence) still provide breaking power and defensive utility in one slot. Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Crawdaunt, Lucario (yes, really), and Slither Wing give exceptional priority on teams. SpikeStack using some combination of Chesnaught, Klefki, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Palossand are perfectly usable as well and punish teams that rely on Maushold as removal given how many Rocky Helmets you can slot on these mons.
Overall, I agree with Oyster with regards to HO being perhaps too unhealthy for the tier given how easy it is to spam on ladder and even in tournaments, though I don't necessarily think Maushold is the biggest offender. In fact, I've talked at length about HO being problematic as a whole but no one particular element stands out to me, though Blastoise and Revavroom are the two that get complained about the most from the community. I would be happy to see the tier perform another survey soon and look to do tiering action, but I also think we have so many offenders on the HO structure as a whole that it is difficult to completely eliminate it from the tier. Maushold especially has the disadvantage of relying on Population Bomb to take most things down with the drawback of dying immediately to recoil if it runs into a Rocky Helmet user, and if you try to use Bullet Seed to circumvent this you rely on rolls that are incredibly unfavorable for you.
The options of dealing with HO remain pretty similar to previous shifts: strong priority, solid defensive backbones, and phazing where possible. Assault Vest Cyclizar is still a great tool for teams needing the role compression. We've seen a shift to some Galarian Weezing and Noivern Defog teams of late, though they lack a way to phaze stuff like Blastoise at +2. Amoonguss, Hippowdon, and Slowbro all retain their previous viability and bulkier offensive Pokemon like Okidogi and Salamence (namely, mixed Salamence) still provide breaking power and defensive utility in one slot. Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Crawdaunt, Lucario (yes, really), and Slither Wing give exceptional priority on teams. SpikeStack using some combination of Chesnaught, Klefki, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Palossand are perfectly usable as well and punish teams that rely on Maushold as removal given how many Rocky Helmets you can slot on these mons.
Overall, I agree with Oyster with regards to HO being perhaps too unhealthy for the tier given how easy it is to spam on ladder and even in tournaments, though I don't necessarily think Maushold is the biggest offender. In fact, I've talked at length about HO being problematic as a whole but no one particular element stands out to me, though Blastoise and Revavroom are the two that get complained about the most from the community. I would be happy to see the tier perform another survey soon and look to do tiering action, but I also think we have so many offenders on the HO structure as a whole that it is difficult to completely eliminate it from the tier. Maushold especially has the disadvantage of relying on Population Bomb to take most things down with the drawback of dying immediately to recoil if it runs into a Rocky Helmet user, and if you try to use Bullet Seed to circumvent this you rely on rolls that are incredibly unfavorable for you.
HO is very annoying. I'm not here to say what I think needs to be banned or whatever, but I figured I might as well make a post saying that people still aren't creative enough in the builder to prep for what the tier currently is.
Here are some unused anti HO mons that also have good matchup into common threats:
Registeel is a fat steel type that can also provide rocks. Losing toxic hurts it a lot vs bulky set up mons like Slowbro and Cresselia, but this mon currently matches well into almost every physical attacker (and Gardevoir) thanks to Iron Defense + Body Press.
Here are some physical breakers I've beaten 1v1 with Regi:
I could include many more cause I run a lot of speed on my Regi so I've even outsped Conkeldurr but that's besides the point. Some of these interactions obviously depend on the current state of the game, and some probably aren't winnable against the wrong tera (Tera Poison BU Krook most likely owns you). But Registeel when played correctly has allowed me to set up alongside most of these breakers, and sometimes even take a hit and keep setting up (vs Scarf Zapdos, you also beat it with any tera). My point is that Regi is a solid answer vs physical breakers, and you can also set up alongside mons like Hippowdon, Kleavor, etc. I know I've said it before but I still don't understand why people are not using it yet.
Feli mentions Wo-Chien part 100000000. At least this time it's ranked decently high in the VR so I know the more involved community members are aware of the mon and what it can do. Bulky enough to tank any hit, Knock Off and Leech Tect back to full relatively easy. I really like that this mon has Foul Play for the set up breakers, making a very common interaction to tera to remove your weaknesses and punish set up breakers. I usually run Ghost, but you can also run Poison and Steel depending on your team, and what you want to beat. I've used Wo-Chien to punish all the mons mentioned above (Taunt Krook kinda annoys you but WHATEVER) while still being able to beat these annoying demons:
Gengar might be a bit of a stretch but you OHKO with Knock Off and live any hit comfortably. Cresselia cannot beat you unless it's like Tera Fairy but they usually opt for Poison or Steel to not lose to Toxic mons. The other 2 bulky waters are comfortably checked (Gotta be careful around specs Legion if you play too passive). You also make progress vs the entire tier but I can't list them all.
I've been messing around with Sticky Hold + Rocky Helmet phys def Gastrodon and I've been pleasantly surprised. I won't hype up this mon as much as the others, but the utility provided has been great. Some mons I've been able to check with this set:
Maybe Maushold is a bit of a stretch cause I've seen some Bullet Seed sets but it's fine, you can just bait the Population Bomb on Helmet and call it a day. It's not the bulkiest of mons but it's bulky enough to never be 2HKOd by Scarf Zapdos, punishing U-turn and Brave Bird real hard. The immunity to Trick also makes it a solid switchin vs mons like Gengar and Gardevoir. Jirachi too, but you also punish Wish Flinching sets. I think it's a very overlooked option. Thundurus cannot one shot you with Grass Knot and it's forced to take Rocky Helmet chip upon using it. Solid and fun option to use. You also handle Rev that aren't Tera Grass.
People already talked about Umbreon, but I wanted to make emphasis on how useful phys def Inner Focus Umbreon is for Rev, Toise, Jirachi and most of the mons I've already listed here, while also providing status for bulkier mons like Slowbro and Cresselia.
I've been a big fan of Shuca Offensive Empoleon, especially vs the specific Tera Ground Yanmega matchup (some are using tera elec which kinda sucks). Punishing defog from Weezing Galar is also huge because not many mons can switchin to a +2 Offensive Empoleon, and you are bulky enough to still handle mons like Armarouge naturally.
Other breakers I've used for fun:
NP Life Orb with Flamethrower, Grass Knot and Vacuum Wave. Solid if you face slower teams and manage to chip the naturally faster mons for Vacuum Wave to KO. The priority is also decent at picking up set up mons in HO like rev or maushold (gotta be careful of tera ghost).
Knock Turn Regen. I've used Ice Spinner for the few Psychic Terrains around which is cool to remove terrain.
Some people said this mon was dying off pre shifts, but I think Goodra being on more teams recently (I've seen v few Jirachi around) makes CM sets real good. I've been using Taunt and Toxic as my last move and it's been doing wonders. This mon has also always been a soft check for Yanmega when needed.
Too much rambling about nothing, these are just mons I've found to be real fun. Mixed Salamence is also p cool and I'm glad Noivern picked up quickly.
I honestly kinda feel like Yanmega is a bit more annoying at breaking down walls for other HO mons than Rev and Blastoise because of how easy it is to keep a sweep going unlike the other 2 that have to click a non-damaging move one turn to actually start breaking stuff.
Here are some unused anti HO mons that also have good matchup into common threats:
Registeel is a fat steel type that can also provide rocks. Losing toxic hurts it a lot vs bulky set up mons like Slowbro and Cresselia, but this mon currently matches well into almost every physical attacker (and Gardevoir) thanks to Iron Defense + Body Press.
Here are some physical breakers I've beaten 1v1 with Regi:
I could include many more cause I run a lot of speed on my Regi so I've even outsped Conkeldurr but that's besides the point. Some of these interactions obviously depend on the current state of the game, and some probably aren't winnable against the wrong tera (Tera Poison BU Krook most likely owns you). But Registeel when played correctly has allowed me to set up alongside most of these breakers, and sometimes even take a hit and keep setting up (vs Scarf Zapdos, you also beat it with any tera). My point is that Regi is a solid answer vs physical breakers, and you can also set up alongside mons like Hippowdon, Kleavor, etc. I know I've said it before but I still don't understand why people are not using it yet.
Feli mentions Wo-Chien part 100000000. At least this time it's ranked decently high in the VR so I know the more involved community members are aware of the mon and what it can do. Bulky enough to tank any hit, Knock Off and Leech Tect back to full relatively easy. I really like that this mon has Foul Play for the set up breakers, making a very common interaction to tera to remove your weaknesses and punish set up breakers. I usually run Ghost, but you can also run Poison and Steel depending on your team, and what you want to beat. I've used Wo-Chien to punish all the mons mentioned above (Taunt Krook kinda annoys you but WHATEVER) while still being able to beat these annoying demons:
Gengar might be a bit of a stretch but you OHKO with Knock Off and live any hit comfortably. Cresselia cannot beat you unless it's like Tera Fairy but they usually opt for Poison or Steel to not lose to Toxic mons. The other 2 bulky waters are comfortably checked (Gotta be careful around specs Legion if you play too passive). You also make progress vs the entire tier but I can't list them all.
I've been messing around with Sticky Hold + Rocky Helmet phys def Gastrodon and I've been pleasantly surprised. I won't hype up this mon as much as the others, but the utility provided has been great. Some mons I've been able to check with this set:
Maybe Maushold is a bit of a stretch cause I've seen some Bullet Seed sets but it's fine, you can just bait the Population Bomb on Helmet and call it a day. It's not the bulkiest of mons but it's bulky enough to never be 2HKOd by Scarf Zapdos, punishing U-turn and Brave Bird real hard. The immunity to Trick also makes it a solid switchin vs mons like Gengar and Gardevoir. Jirachi too, but you also punish Wish Flinching sets. I think it's a very overlooked option. Thundurus cannot one shot you with Grass Knot and it's forced to take Rocky Helmet chip upon using it. Solid and fun option to use. You also handle Rev that aren't Tera Grass.
People already talked about Umbreon, but I wanted to make emphasis on how useful phys def Inner Focus Umbreon is for Rev, Toise, Jirachi and most of the mons I've already listed here, while also providing status for bulkier mons like Slowbro and Cresselia.
I've been a big fan of Shuca Offensive Empoleon, especially vs the specific Tera Ground Yanmega matchup (some are using tera elec which kinda sucks). Punishing defog from Weezing Galar is also huge because not many mons can switchin to a +2 Offensive Empoleon, and you are bulky enough to still handle mons like Armarouge naturally.
Other breakers I've used for fun:
NP Life Orb with Flamethrower, Grass Knot and Vacuum Wave. Solid if you face slower teams and manage to chip the naturally faster mons for Vacuum Wave to KO. The priority is also decent at picking up set up mons in HO like rev or maushold (gotta be careful of tera ghost).
Knock Turn Regen. I've used Ice Spinner for the few Psychic Terrains around which is cool to remove terrain.
Some people said this mon was dying off pre shifts, but I think Goodra being on more teams recently (I've seen v few Jirachi around) makes CM sets real good. I've been using Taunt and Toxic as my last move and it's been doing wonders. This mon has also always been a soft check for Yanmega when needed.
Too much rambling about nothing, these are just mons I've found to be real fun. Mixed Salamence is also p cool and I'm glad Noivern picked up quickly.
I honestly kinda feel like Yanmega is a bit more annoying at breaking down walls for other HO mons than Rev and Blastoise because of how easy it is to keep a sweep going unlike the other 2 that have to click a non-damaging move one turn to actually start breaking stuff.
Hello RU citizens.
Today, I would like to ask you what Hoodra and Geezing sets you settled with in your teams, as there is a lot of variety in move picks and EV spreads, with, as far as I'm aware of, no real consensus on what are the single best ones. Let's see what the conventional sets look like:
Starting off with the slug, the common set seems to be something like this:
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest / Leftovers
Ability: Gooey / Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Fairy / Ghost / Flying
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Knock Off / Earthquake / Flash Cannon / Heavy Slam / Flamethrower
- Earthquake / Knock Off / Flash Cannon / Heavy Slam / Flamethrower
The item is usually Assault Vest, with the rare Leftovers sometimes making an appearance. This is the least controversial aspect of Hoodra sets.
The ability seems to be a 50/50 between Sap Sipper and Gooey, with Sap Sipper being mostly played if the chosen coverage is physical.
Tera type is very diverse, with conventional types being the most popular.
Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail are in 80% of Hoodra sets, although they can be dropped depending on if you want to go full physical in Meteor's case, or if you are not a Dragon Tail believer. Hoodra has plenty of coverage options that can be picked depending on the matchups you want to cover, in a team to team basis.
You may have noticed that this set does not have a Nature or EVs. That is why it is by far the most volatile part of the set, with many options seemingly viable. You will likely need to calc for specific matchups you want to cover for every one of your teams, which can be a time-consuming task, and also doesn't help when trying to settle for 1 catch-all set you could propose to a new player.
Here is the set I settled on as the one I'd give to a new RU player:
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Flamethrower / Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
Levitate is mandatory to not lose to Krookodile, Revavroom, and other Pokemon that run Ground STAB or coverage. Neutralizing Gas memes are probably possible but much less viable imo.
Tera Steel is an obvious pick for the classic Levitate Steel combo.
The EVs are a big one however: speed creeping in the 160-240 fork is a complicated things, with things seemingly running random-looking investments to creep anything from Conkeldurr with speed investment, to bulky Bisharp, Empoleon, Chesnaught, Hoodra...
Defog and Strange Steam are mandatory slots. Then, it's usually a toss up between Flamethrower or Will-O-Wisp, the former being more pro-active against Steels, especially Forretress, and the latter spreading burn on stuff like Revavroom, Krook, and pretty much everything in general, although making Geezing more vulnerable to Taunt. The last one is usually Pain Split, although I believe it to not be necessary at all ; in fact, it's pretty bad imo, and would rather run Flamethrower + Will-O or Taunt.
With that said, I would like to have you RU citizen's input on these Pokemon's sets.
Which sets do you usually run on Hoodra and Geezing?
Which set would you consider being the default one for Hoodra and Geezing?
Today, I would like to ask you what Hoodra and Geezing sets you settled with in your teams, as there is a lot of variety in move picks and EV spreads, with, as far as I'm aware of, no real consensus on what are the single best ones. Let's see what the conventional sets look like:
Starting off with the slug, the common set seems to be something like this:
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest / Leftovers
Ability: Gooey / Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Fairy / Ghost / Flying
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Knock Off / Earthquake / Flash Cannon / Heavy Slam / Flamethrower
- Earthquake / Knock Off / Flash Cannon / Heavy Slam / Flamethrower
The item is usually Assault Vest, with the rare Leftovers sometimes making an appearance. This is the least controversial aspect of Hoodra sets.
The ability seems to be a 50/50 between Sap Sipper and Gooey, with Sap Sipper being mostly played if the chosen coverage is physical.
Tera type is very diverse, with conventional types being the most popular.
Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail are in 80% of Hoodra sets, although they can be dropped depending on if you want to go full physical in Meteor's case, or if you are not a Dragon Tail believer. Hoodra has plenty of coverage options that can be picked depending on the matchups you want to cover, in a team to team basis.
You may have noticed that this set does not have a Nature or EVs. That is why it is by far the most volatile part of the set, with many options seemingly viable. You will likely need to calc for specific matchups you want to cover for every one of your teams, which can be a time-consuming task, and also doesn't help when trying to settle for 1 catch-all set you could propose to a new player.
Here is the set I settled on as the one I'd give to a new RU player:
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
140 Speed EVs allows Hoodra to outrun the "common" 190 benchmark some sets settle on, while letting us outrun positive base 80s like Choice Band Okidogi after a Gooey speed drop.
The rest of EVs are distributed evenly across HP and SpA for good bulk and solid damage output. 176+ SpA is a jump point.
Flash Cannon is a STAB that keeps its full power even when burned, at the cost of not being able to pressure Fezandipiti. Flamethrower hits Steel like Jirachi and Forretress.
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
140 Speed EVs allows Hoodra to outrun the "common" 190 benchmark some sets settle on, while letting us outrun positive base 80s like Choice Band Okidogi after a Gooey speed drop.
The rest of EVs are distributed evenly across HP and SpA for good bulk and solid damage output. 176+ SpA is a jump point.
Flash Cannon is a STAB that keeps its full power even when burned, at the cost of not being able to pressure Fezandipiti. Flamethrower hits Steel like Jirachi and Forretress.
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Flamethrower / Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
Levitate is mandatory to not lose to Krookodile, Revavroom, and other Pokemon that run Ground STAB or coverage. Neutralizing Gas memes are probably possible but much less viable imo.
Tera Steel is an obvious pick for the classic Levitate Steel combo.
The EVs are a big one however: speed creeping in the 160-240 fork is a complicated things, with things seemingly running random-looking investments to creep anything from Conkeldurr with speed investment, to bulky Bisharp, Empoleon, Chesnaught, Hoodra...
Defog and Strange Steam are mandatory slots. Then, it's usually a toss up between Flamethrower or Will-O-Wisp, the former being more pro-active against Steels, especially Forretress, and the latter spreading burn on stuff like Revavroom, Krook, and pretty much everything in general, although making Geezing more vulnerable to Taunt. The last one is usually Pain Split, although I believe it to not be necessary at all ; in fact, it's pretty bad imo, and would rather run Flamethrower + Will-O or Taunt.
With that said, I would like to have you RU citizen's input on these Pokemon's sets.
Which sets do you usually run on Hoodra and Geezing?
Which set would you consider being the default one for Hoodra and Geezing?
Double post on my part indeed, but this one deserves its own post:
I would like to present to you the Fast Itemless Geezing tech
Weezing-Galar
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thief
When using more conventional sets, I felt like Geezing was too passive in offensive teams, and that most of its options were just not enough: Pain Split would never be clicked ever and Flamethrower would do too little damage, leaving me with Will-O-Wisp and Taunt for the last two slots. Surely we can do better...
In most games, Geezing loses its item from Knock Off very early due to checking mons that click the move by default, such as Krookodile, Mienshao, or even Gligar. Itemless Thief gives Geezing a pseudo-Knock Off option that can give him Boots or Leftovers to use as it absorbs Knock Off left and right throughout the game.
I went with 252+ Speed as Geezing usually invalidates mons it counters such as Krookodile (Banded Tera Poison Gunk Shot still stings with heavy Defense investment), Mienshao, Heavy Slam-less Slither Wing (which you still take a ton from if you go 252 HP/252 Def+ anyway), and Cyclizar, therefore not needing heavy Defense investment. Running no HP EVs also matter less in cases where you want to pass Wish to Geezing.
This high speed investment also allows Geezing to always Will-O-Wisp Bisharp, even if it runs 252 Speed EVs, which is HUGE considering Bisharp is a top mon in usage rn and has a great matchup against offense teams.
Even if you aren't planning to run 252+ Speed on your Geezing (I would understand lol), I do believe that Itemless Thief is one of Geezing's best options, if not the best one and is often overlooked.
I would like to present to you the Fast Itemless Geezing tech
Weezing-Galar
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thief
When using more conventional sets, I felt like Geezing was too passive in offensive teams, and that most of its options were just not enough: Pain Split would never be clicked ever and Flamethrower would do too little damage, leaving me with Will-O-Wisp and Taunt for the last two slots. Surely we can do better...
In most games, Geezing loses its item from Knock Off very early due to checking mons that click the move by default, such as Krookodile, Mienshao, or even Gligar. Itemless Thief gives Geezing a pseudo-Knock Off option that can give him Boots or Leftovers to use as it absorbs Knock Off left and right throughout the game.
I went with 252+ Speed as Geezing usually invalidates mons it counters such as Krookodile (Banded Tera Poison Gunk Shot still stings with heavy Defense investment), Mienshao, Heavy Slam-less Slither Wing (which you still take a ton from if you go 252 HP/252 Def+ anyway), and Cyclizar, therefore not needing heavy Defense investment. Running no HP EVs also matter less in cases where you want to pass Wish to Geezing.
This high speed investment also allows Geezing to always Will-O-Wisp Bisharp, even if it runs 252 Speed EVs, which is HUGE considering Bisharp is a top mon in usage rn and has a great matchup against offense teams.
Even if you aren't planning to run 252+ Speed on your Geezing (I would understand lol), I do believe that Itemless Thief is one of Geezing's best options, if not the best one and is often overlooked.
I have some less 'conventional' sets that I could share for this.Hello RU citizens.
Today, I would like to ask you what Hoodra and Geezing sets you settled with in your teams, as there is a lot of variety in move picks and EV spreads, with, as far as I'm aware of, no real consensus on what are the single best ones. Let's see what the conventional sets look like:
Starting off with the slug, the common set seems to be something like this:
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest / Leftovers
Ability: Gooey / Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Fairy / Ghost / Flying
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Knock Off / Earthquake / Flash Cannon / Heavy Slam / Flamethrower
- Earthquake / Knock Off / Flash Cannon / Heavy Slam / Flamethrower
The item is usually Assault Vest, with the rare Leftovers sometimes making an appearance. This is the least controversial aspect of Hoodra sets.
The ability seems to be a 50/50 between Sap Sipper and Gooey, with Sap Sipper being mostly played if the chosen coverage is physical.
Tera type is very diverse, with conventional types being the most popular.
Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail are in 80% of Hoodra sets, although they can be dropped depending on if you want to go full physical in Meteor's case, or if you are not a Dragon Tail believer. Hoodra has plenty of coverage options that can be picked depending on the matchups you want to cover, in a team to team basis.
You may have noticed that this set does not have a Nature or EVs. That is why it is by far the most volatile part of the set, with many options seemingly viable. You will likely need to calc for specific matchups you want to cover for every one of your teams, which can be a time-consuming task, and also doesn't help when trying to settle for 1 catch-all set you could propose to a new player.
Here is the set I settled on as the one I'd give to a new RU player:
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
140 Speed EVs allows Hoodra to outrun the "common" 190 benchmark some sets settle on, while letting us outrun positive base 80s like Choice Band Okidogi after a Gooey speed drop.
The rest of EVs are distributed evenly across HP and SpA for good bulk and solid damage output. 176+ SpA is a jump point.
Flash Cannon is a STAB that keeps its full power even when burned, at the cost of not being able to pressure Fezandipiti. Flamethrower hits Steel like Jirachi and Forretress.
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Flamethrower / Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
Levitate is mandatory to not lose to Krookodile, Revavroom, and other Pokemon that run Ground STAB or coverage. Neutralizing Gas memes are probably possible but much less viable imo.
Tera Steel is an obvious pick for the classic Levitate Steel combo.
The EVs are a big one however: speed creeping in the 160-240 fork is a complicated things, with things seemingly running random-looking investments to creep anything from Conkeldurr with speed investment, to bulky Bisharp, Empoleon, Chesnaught, Hoodra...
Defog and Strange Steam are mandatory slots. Then, it's usually a toss up between Flamethrower or Will-O-Wisp, the former being more pro-active against Steels, especially Forretress, and the latter spreading burn on stuff like Revavroom, Krook, and pretty much everything in general, although making Geezing more vulnerable to Taunt. The last one is usually Pain Split, although I believe it to not be necessary at all ; in fact, it's pretty bad imo, and would rather run Flamethrower + Will-O or Taunt.
With that said, I would like to have you RU citizen's input on these Pokemon's sets.
Which sets do you usually run on Hoodra and Geezing?
Which set would you consider being the default one for Hoodra and Geezing?
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Tail
- Flamethrower
- Knock Off
This is personally my favourite hoodra set. This set uses MAXIMUM SPECIAL INVESMENT in order to basically say "no" to any special attacker. Stuff like +1 yanmega tera blast ground isn't even a 2hit ko, which is insane. Any lighter hits will simply bounce off it. Pair it with a wish passer (vaporeon is my favourite to pair with this) and you have something that no special attacker is breaking through.
Goodra-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
Although fluff didn't mention the specs set, there is another set that I like using on hoodra, the CB set. This won Week 4 of The Next Best Thing, and its a really powerful set. Nothing besides hippo and forre like switching into this set and hippo can be beaten with hazard pressure. Everything else is 2hit ko'd at the very least by it. Outrage just deals stupifying numbers on its own, with only fairy types (heavy slam dissuades them from switching in) being able to comfortably take it. 216 speed is in order to outspeed max speed craw, which is nice in order to not let it knock your item off and can suprise some slower threats.
Weezing-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Pain Split
- Toxic
- Strange Steam
This is actually I set I'll be explaining also in TOTW, but TLDR, I REALLY like haze geezing. It shuts down a lot of setup sweepers entirely and can put pressure on a ton of mons. I decided toxic over wisp because haze can deal mostly with physical sweepers, and it can create some sticky situations with the other two moves. If a physical setup sweeper is toxic'd, they have two options. They can setup to try and kill the geezing, but risk getting haze'd and negative progress being made due to lefties and toxic damage, or attack immediately but potentially have the damage pain splitted off and getting a lot closer to being ko'd. With tera steel, this set can ALSO beat some stored power sweepers, which are always annoying. Cress, necrozma, diancie, some mew, deo-d and potentially bro too just get shut down completely. Even if some of these try to brute force there way through with attacks, they risk getting pain splited and just losing still. Really great set that I think others should try.
Weezing-Galar @ Eject Pack
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Overheat
- Pain Split
This is a set that I've been theory crafting a little bit lately, but it has two main purposes. Usually, geezing can be a bit passive against steels and a momentum sink, and this set fixes both of those to an extent. Tera Fire Overheat can do 80% min to Bisharp, with utility jirachi taking 58% min. This is also while it is removing itself from the battle in order to switch to a teammate to threaten the thing that switches in. Even after its lost its item, it isn't crippled too much. Overheat still hits hard and pain split allows it to keep itself healthy over the course of a game.
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So what do we all think of the okidogi suspect? I definitely think it is deserved as it feels extremely difficult to defensively answer and often forces mons to tera to even have a chance, in which case they usually lose their item because dogi loves clicking knock off
That being said no one would miss vroom, blastoise or yanmega either but Dogi is the suspect at hand here and it definitely feels like it is a little too much for the tier as oftentimes it really feels like defensive answers and mons that can switch in who don’t get crippled by knock or don’t end up being 2hkos/okhos are pretty slim. And dogi can overcome most of its checks like pretty easily through the options it has for item slots/moves
That being said no one would miss vroom, blastoise or yanmega either but Dogi is the suspect at hand here and it definitely feels like it is a little too much for the tier as oftentimes it really feels like defensive answers and mons that can switch in who don’t get crippled by knock or don’t end up being 2hkos/okhos are pretty slim. And dogi can overcome most of its checks like pretty easily through the options it has for item slots/moves
alright this forum's heart stopped beating again, y'all know what time it is
Ok so my views on Okidogi are kinda mixed, an at this point I would be fine either way (I do personally lean pro-ban, but again either way the wind blows works for me), as I can see exactly why it's both problematic and useful to have around.
BAN-ARGUMENT:
It just kinda hits hard and consistently makes some very damning progress against the opposing team. It's also very adaptable, being able to run between 3 main sets that all require different counterplay (Real RU'ers will remember this being one of the main factors that contributed to Toxtricity's Ban from early RU). It has an immediately threatening version that hits super hard with Choice Band, it can harness a Choice Scarf to hit above it's speed tier and become an evil version of Gardevoir (same speed!), and it can go the win-con route and use Bulk Up to become unkillable by physical means (and unphazable depending on ability)
In fact Okidogi kinda parallels Toxtricity to a surprising degree. I know that they're completely different in terms of attacks, but I'm talking about how they're run and how they work. They both have sets with Choice items that take advantage of high BP moves to bully slower teams, both are offensive Poison types, both have more uncommon sets with Choice Scarf, and both can play the wincon role with a setup move. Both also abuse tera to a high degree (although tbh Okidogi's base typing is great and it usually don't need to unless it's facing another Okidogi)
Another thing that Okidogi has going for it is completely unresisted coverage (except to another Okidogi and maybe a Toxicroak), which means that checks to it are slim pickings, and if you get read on a switch in, you're taking either a 120 BP stab move off of a 128 ATK stat or getting knocked, all with the chance of being toxic'd. This is further amplified by the Choice Band set, but any of the other sets are capable of using the unresisted coverage to consistently blow holes in your team's defensive profile. The ONE counterplay that has been discovered is Tera Poison, particularly on Slowbro and other assorted physical walls, who can Scald and wall and generally shut down Okidogi's rampage. This is the main way you can stop the dog, and the main way most well-made balance and BO teams stop the Dog from killing everyone in sight.
So since answering it defensively is impossible, clearly you have to fight fire with fire, right? Except you have to realize that Okidogi can easily capitalize on any attempts at beating it, cause you have 4 routes you have to take once it hits the field:
1. You switch right in to your offensive answer or fast volt/u-turn into your offensive answer
2. You slowturn into your offensive answer
3. Sac something to the Dog and get your answer in that way.
4. Try and hit the Okidogi with something from your Mon who's already in
Starting off, Number 1, switch/turn into an offensive answer.
The thing with this is that if Okidogi is right there on the field, you are giving the Dog a free turn to do whatever, and that free turn usually is dedicated to smacking whatever comes in to kingdom come. And remember, unresisted coverage, so if they read your switch, suddenly your Okidogi check is 6 feet under. And even if it does survive, there's always the chance of a Toxic proc, so suddenly you're on a timer and unable to come in a second time.
Next, Number 2: Slowturn.
Now, Okidogi is a pretty slow guy, but he hits hard. Everyone knows this, it's an undisputable fact. So if you're trying to Slowturn against the Okidogi who's whole thing is hitting really hard then what do you think THAT means? It means whatever is trying to slowturn gets obliterated by whatever stab option is most effective, no reads required.
Number 3: Sac.
the simplest option, but to be honest, this one really just depends on the gamestate. It really just depends on what gets sac'd, and that comes down to how good the player is. So uh, PSA guys, DON'T SAC YOUR WINCONS LEARN TO PATH A WAY TO VICTORY AND IDENTIFY WHAT POKEMON WILL BE REQUIRED TO WIN IN AN ENDGAME SCENARIO (not angry but I just want to lead others to a treasure I cannot possess)
Finally, Number 4: just kill the guy.
If you have a move that probably will work, you can always just click the move. Doesn't work when they have tera., in which case you get cooked.
So if it hasn't been made clear, Okidogi when positioned well (any by positioned well I mean anytime it's healthy and on the field) can pretty consistently trap switches and take KO's, and generally is a progress making machine.
But what about when you actually DO hit it? With a mon this slow and powerful, surely it's bulk isn't THAT go
88 HP
115 DEF
86 SpD
So to sum this up, You realistically aren't killing Okidogi with a physical move that isn't either boosted or Psychic Fangs, and it can take neutral special hits and survive. This means that for offensive counterplay, if you want to actually OHKO it and like, kill the guy, you gotta hit em with that Psychic Super Effective Stare.
But "Elec-ant1234!" i hear your thoughts "What do we have in the RU Tier that can outspeed and reliably OHKO Okidogi?"
That list includes, but is not limited to:
Armarouge! (assuming that the Armarouge is max speed and the Okidogi hasn't invested in at least jolly nature +216 speed EVs)
Gardevoir! (assuming Okidogi isn't max speed jolly + Choice Scarf and wins the speed tie and hits the gunk shot, a 40% chance of happening)
Azelf! (assuming no Choice Scarf)
Jirachi! (assuming no Choice Scarf)
Necrozma! (he doesn't outspeed but he does survive a Gunk Shot 87.5% of the time and OHKO back)
Other Okidogi! (assuming you love gambling)
Mew! (assuming no choice scarf)
, , +2 
, and various others.
The only really truly CONSISTANT option that you can go with is trying to kill it with flying type moves or Earth Power/TeraBlast Ground.
This means your Salamences, your +1 Yanmegas, your Gapdoses, etc etc.
There *is* counterplay, but you have to gamble sometimes and scout for a set to make absolutely sure that you know what you're dealing with, and if you're scouting, then Okidogi is most likely clicking buttons and making progress. You really can't win against the dog sometimes, but, as shown, there are ways to smack it around. It's still really bulky though, don't ever forget that.
So TLDR, Okidogi hits really hard, takes a lot of punishment and can stick around making progress for just long enough to make a massive impact on the game, sometimes making enough progress to signal the death-knell of it's opponent's team from the moment it hits the field (I.E. they simply can't muster enough defensive or offensive pressure after Okidogi does it's work due to the amount of damage inflicted overall, essentially making the game all but lost.)
ANTI-BAN ARGUMENT:
Okidogi is REALLY splashable on balance teams due to just being this fat presence that does all the offensive work and can make some major progress. This gives balance teams two things:
1. A bulky fat backbone that can deal some major damage
2. A solid defensive presence on the team
Number 1 is obvious and self-explanatory, but number 2 is key, as for most teams, Okidogi is the only way you can fit a Poison type on their team. This means that for most teams, this is how you get your fighting resists, this is how you hold back the many, MANY fighting types in the tier before falling back to your hippo + amoonguss core.
And I think that's pretty much it, what the dog does is hit things really hard and 2 Shot Hippo w/ Choice Band (why the hell can it do that)
feel free to correct me and such (and please do I don't wanna be the only guy who resuscitates the RU forum, like I know my name's Elec-ant but I ain't a defibrillator)
Ok so my views on Okidogi are kinda mixed, an at this point I would be fine either way (I do personally lean pro-ban, but again either way the wind blows works for me), as I can see exactly why it's both problematic and useful to have around.
BAN-ARGUMENT:
It just kinda hits hard and consistently makes some very damning progress against the opposing team. It's also very adaptable, being able to run between 3 main sets that all require different counterplay (Real RU'ers will remember this being one of the main factors that contributed to Toxtricity's Ban from early RU). It has an immediately threatening version that hits super hard with Choice Band, it can harness a Choice Scarf to hit above it's speed tier and become an evil version of Gardevoir (same speed!), and it can go the win-con route and use Bulk Up to become unkillable by physical means (and unphazable depending on ability)
In fact Okidogi kinda parallels Toxtricity to a surprising degree. I know that they're completely different in terms of attacks, but I'm talking about how they're run and how they work. They both have sets with Choice items that take advantage of high BP moves to bully slower teams, both are offensive Poison types, both have more uncommon sets with Choice Scarf, and both can play the wincon role with a setup move. Both also abuse tera to a high degree (although tbh Okidogi's base typing is great and it usually don't need to unless it's facing another Okidogi)
Another thing that Okidogi has going for it is completely unresisted coverage (except to another Okidogi and maybe a Toxicroak), which means that checks to it are slim pickings, and if you get read on a switch in, you're taking either a 120 BP stab move off of a 128 ATK stat or getting knocked, all with the chance of being toxic'd. This is further amplified by the Choice Band set, but any of the other sets are capable of using the unresisted coverage to consistently blow holes in your team's defensive profile. The ONE counterplay that has been discovered is Tera Poison, particularly on Slowbro and other assorted physical walls, who can Scald and wall and generally shut down Okidogi's rampage. This is the main way you can stop the dog, and the main way most well-made balance and BO teams stop the Dog from killing everyone in sight.
So since answering it defensively is impossible, clearly you have to fight fire with fire, right? Except you have to realize that Okidogi can easily capitalize on any attempts at beating it, cause you have 4 routes you have to take once it hits the field:
1. You switch right in to your offensive answer or fast volt/u-turn into your offensive answer
2. You slowturn into your offensive answer
3. Sac something to the Dog and get your answer in that way.
4. Try and hit the Okidogi with something from your Mon who's already in
Starting off, Number 1, switch/turn into an offensive answer.
The thing with this is that if Okidogi is right there on the field, you are giving the Dog a free turn to do whatever, and that free turn usually is dedicated to smacking whatever comes in to kingdom come. And remember, unresisted coverage, so if they read your switch, suddenly your Okidogi check is 6 feet under. And even if it does survive, there's always the chance of a Toxic proc, so suddenly you're on a timer and unable to come in a second time.
Next, Number 2: Slowturn.
Now, Okidogi is a pretty slow guy, but he hits hard. Everyone knows this, it's an undisputable fact. So if you're trying to Slowturn against the Okidogi who's whole thing is hitting really hard then what do you think THAT means? It means whatever is trying to slowturn gets obliterated by whatever stab option is most effective, no reads required.
Number 3: Sac.
the simplest option, but to be honest, this one really just depends on the gamestate. It really just depends on what gets sac'd, and that comes down to how good the player is. So uh, PSA guys, DON'T SAC YOUR WINCONS LEARN TO PATH A WAY TO VICTORY AND IDENTIFY WHAT POKEMON WILL BE REQUIRED TO WIN IN AN ENDGAME SCENARIO (not angry but I just want to lead others to a treasure I cannot possess)
Finally, Number 4: just kill the guy.
If you have a move that probably will work, you can always just click the move. Doesn't work when they have tera., in which case you get cooked.
So if it hasn't been made clear, Okidogi when positioned well (any by positioned well I mean anytime it's healthy and on the field) can pretty consistently trap switches and take KO's, and generally is a progress making machine.
But what about when you actually DO hit it? With a mon this slow and powerful, surely it's bulk isn't THAT go
88 HP
115 DEF
86 SpD
So to sum this up, You realistically aren't killing Okidogi with a physical move that isn't either boosted or Psychic Fangs, and it can take neutral special hits and survive. This means that for offensive counterplay, if you want to actually OHKO it and like, kill the guy, you gotta hit em with that Psychic Super Effective Stare.
But "Elec-ant1234!" i hear your thoughts "What do we have in the RU Tier that can outspeed and reliably OHKO Okidogi?"
That list includes, but is not limited to:
Armarouge! (assuming that the Armarouge is max speed and the Okidogi hasn't invested in at least jolly nature +216 speed EVs) Gardevoir! (assuming Okidogi isn't max speed jolly + Choice Scarf and wins the speed tie and hits the gunk shot, a 40% chance of happening) Azelf! (assuming no Choice Scarf) Jirachi! (assuming no Choice Scarf) Necrozma! (he doesn't outspeed but he does survive a Gunk Shot 87.5% of the time and OHKO back) Other Okidogi! (assuming you love gambling) Mew! (assuming no choice scarf), , +2 , and various others.The only really truly CONSISTANT option that you can go with is trying to kill it with flying type moves or Earth Power/TeraBlast Ground.
This means your Salamences, your +1 Yanmegas, your Gapdoses, etc etc.
There *is* counterplay, but you have to gamble sometimes and scout for a set to make absolutely sure that you know what you're dealing with, and if you're scouting, then Okidogi is most likely clicking buttons and making progress. You really can't win against the dog sometimes, but, as shown, there are ways to smack it around. It's still really bulky though, don't ever forget that.
So TLDR, Okidogi hits really hard, takes a lot of punishment and can stick around making progress for just long enough to make a massive impact on the game, sometimes making enough progress to signal the death-knell of it's opponent's team from the moment it hits the field (I.E. they simply can't muster enough defensive or offensive pressure after Okidogi does it's work due to the amount of damage inflicted overall, essentially making the game all but lost.)
ANTI-BAN ARGUMENT:
Okidogi is REALLY splashable on balance teams due to just being this fat presence that does all the offensive work and can make some major progress. This gives balance teams two things:
1. A bulky fat backbone that can deal some major damage
2. A solid defensive presence on the team
Number 1 is obvious and self-explanatory, but number 2 is key, as for most teams, Okidogi is the only way you can fit a Poison type on their team. This means that for most teams, this is how you get your fighting resists, this is how you hold back the many, MANY fighting types in the tier before falling back to your hippo + amoonguss core.
And I think that's pretty much it, what the dog does is hit things really hard and 2 Shot Hippo w/ Choice Band (why the hell can it do that)
feel free to correct me and such (and please do I don't wanna be the only guy who resuscitates the RU forum, like I know my name's Elec-ant but I ain't a defibrillator)
Alright, since I promised both fluff!! and Elec-ant1234 that I will make a post in the forums soon, I am fulfilling it. Its been a long time since I have done it so please forgive me.
Alright so let's talk about the place the tier is in. The tier is wonderful..? I really like the tier, and this might come as a surprise to many as I have been very vocal about how ass the tier, which it is. So you might think, Eonis/Lyra/Foresf Guardian/ w/e other name I go by how can u both like and dislike the tier? Well here is the thing. The tier is very enjoyable BUT only if its like a game of balance, bo, offense even. However, that is rarely the case. The RU Ladder is filled with Hyper Offense, thank you Canard for making ladder use
. Even in tours the most consistent way is not to load fat but cheese, I feel like calling HO cheese is very wrong as of present since it's SUPER consistent and generally wins game which is really all u need and guess what, that's what's happening in tours as well! So fun!
You will see newcomers (to the tier) simply pick up a HO from some place and ball with and do so fucking well. And this is the problem.
Of course I don't mind seeing HO every once in a while but seeing how common it is, it just sucks to play. Some people will say it's just how sv is as a gen and bla bla bla and I understand that. However, it doesn't mean it can't be solved. Like I said I don't mind seeing it every once in a while, nor it being good, but HO of all things shouldn't be this good. And even the HO teams that are used, you will see the same 6-9 mons being recycled OVER AND OVER.
and God knows what else. And all of them, are to some extent broken (the former three needed to be banned but like the council chose to suspect Okidogi... silly council). This is all I wanna write for now will probably edit in some replays of HO just deciding to run rampant. Ciao for now.
Alright so let's talk about the place the tier is in. The tier is wonderful..? I really like the tier, and this might come as a surprise to many as I have been very vocal about how ass the tier, which it is. So you might think, Eonis/Lyra/Foresf Guardian/ w/e other name I go by how can u both like and dislike the tier? Well here is the thing. The tier is very enjoyable BUT only if its like a game of balance, bo, offense even. However, that is rarely the case. The RU Ladder is filled with Hyper Offense, thank you Canard for making ladder use
. Even in tours the most consistent way is not to load fat but cheese, I feel like calling HO cheese is very wrong as of present since it's SUPER consistent and generally wins game which is really all u need and guess what, that's what's happening in tours as well! So fun!You will see newcomers (to the tier) simply pick up a HO from some place and ball with and do so fucking well. And this is the problem.
Of course I don't mind seeing HO every once in a while but seeing how common it is, it just sucks to play. Some people will say it's just how sv is as a gen and bla bla bla and I understand that. However, it doesn't mean it can't be solved. Like I said I don't mind seeing it every once in a while, nor it being good, but HO of all things shouldn't be this good. And even the HO teams that are used, you will see the same 6-9 mons being recycled OVER AND OVER.
and God knows what else. And all of them, are to some extent broken (the former three needed to be banned but like the council chose to suspect Okidogi... silly council). This is all I wanna write for now will probably edit in some replays of HO just deciding to run rampant. Ciao for now.
Part 1: Setters 
Kleavor is probably the most common setter, or at least was before the metagame adapted back to it. Its main draw is Stone Axe, which ignores Taunt and the rare Magic Bounce Espeon while giving your setter more offensive presence to threaten potential defoggers such as Talonflame with. However, Stone Axe can miss, which isn't common but isn't ideal, it's the slowest hazard setter and therefore can be played around that way, most notably with Rock Blast Terrakion, and most importantly despite its power there are certain things it can't really touch at all, including common setters such as Hippowdon and the new Galarian Weezing, making it weaker into defensive teams than certain other setters despite its offensive prowess. Terrakion is my pick for the best current Stealth Rock setter on standard HO, with its SD/Rocks/Rock Blast/Close Combat set. While it misses out on Stone Axe (despite having literal stone axes on its head) and is therefore more susceptible to standard hazard counterplay, it's much more immediately threatening than Kleavor and significantly faster. Loaded Dice Rock Blast allows you to beat prominent sash leads such as Froslass, Kleavor, and the Sticky Web brothers in the other HO matchups. What puts Terrakion over the edge compared to the others is it's also a breaker that naturally forces switches for SD/Rocks, meaning it can come set or even punch holes in the midgame and gives it much better role compression. Terrakion is also the best HO Stealth Rocker to pair with leads that don't set up stealth rocks due to this.
Krookodile has access to Taunt, Rocks, and a very good dual stab combo, but is the slowest of the HO leads that wants to click Taunt and generally outclassed by Terrakion outside of its access to Knock Off.
Lycanroc is a pretty uncommon lead but its access to Taunt, Rocks, and Accelerock while also hitting very hard with tough claws and even having some set versatility with its good coverage, Taunt, and Endeavor. Endeavor + Accelerock is cute. Don't use midday lycanroc seriously but it is faster than Froslass and can taunt it I guess. Azelf is the fastest lead in the tier, and therefore has the fastest Taunt into other leads or defensive teams, and is decently strong with a fairly wide utility movepool, although you'll mostly be setting rocks, clicking a move if you can, and blowing yourself up after you're put to 1 HP. Azelf can also forgo the traditional suicide lead set for a more offensive rocks set with Life Orb or even forgo rocks entirely and be a setup sweeper, but unlike Terrakion it usually has to pick between rocks and NP. It's also a reasonably effective screener, although screens itself is a pretty ineffective playstyle. Mew is, functionally, a much slower Azelf that sets both Rocks and Spikes, and is the only HO lead worth talking about that does so. It's also reasonably bulky, enough to not have to carry a Focus Sash, and thus can run other items like Red Card or Mental Herb to help check other options. Outside of setting hazards and dying as fast as possible, Mew also has insane versatility as a setup sweeper due to, well, being Mew, and it can even set screens, although I would consider Klefki or Espeon to be the best screens setter. Froslass probably has the highest ceiling of any of the leads despite its inability to set rocks. While others such as Terrakion, Kleavor, and Azelf are able to exert offensive presence, a well-played Froslass usually garauntees a kill thanks to Destiny Bond. in HO vs HO matchups, it's faster than every lead bar Azelf and is thus able to taunt them (or dbond 50/50 with Terrakion), which is also hugely useful. Outside of DBond shenanigans it exerts zero offensive pressure and can't set Stealth Rock, so pairing it with Terrakion or Krookodile is very common. You also can't be spun on and its access to a fast taunt means Galvantula really should be ranked, as it's a very fast webs setter with hard hitting STAB moves and a good chance of paralysis with thunder. Most notably compared to Araquanid, it speed ties terrakion and outspeeds at least a few taunt leads, letting it potentially get webs off in matchups Araquanid would fail to. It's also the webs setter on the current sample!
Araquanid is the other best webs setter, trading Galvantula's speed for more bulk and power and access to Endeavor and Mirror Coat for a nasty surprise for the opponent. Like Mew, it's also bulky enough to get away without a focus sash if you so desire. I personally prefer Galvantula's higher speed stat given how many taunt leads there are.
Klefki can set spikes, but is mostly used to set Dual Screens since it's garaunteed to get at least one off without dying and has other cute utility moves like the aforementioned Spikes, Thunder Wave, and Steel Beam to die faster and garauntee a free entry. Screens is pretty unviable right now but it's worth mentioning here. 
otherwise somewhat dead slots required for their team styles to actually function. I don't plan on talking about these that much compared to the standard set up thing-sac a mon-go nuts style since that's the most viable and this post is already gonna run long as it is. Sun is also set to get a massive bonus with Torkoal in a month or two, that's cool. Part 2: Abusers, or Blastoise and his friends 
I'm gonna try not to turn this into ban Blastoise post #65535 but there's a very good reason Blastoise anchors more or less every serious HO team that isn't relying on an alternative gimmick (Webs/Screens/Weather/Terrain) to win. Shell Smash Blastoise is the single most threatening Pokemon in the tier to any playstyle due to its absurd power, bulk before setting up, and mind-meltingly high number of possible tera and 4th moves making it nearly impossible to scout until it's too late. Blastoise is your main sweeper and your entire team is usually built around taking advantage of which of the usual checks your Blastoise set beats, and tailoring the rest of your team to either beating the other potential checks for it and/or taking advantage of the holes it leaves behind as a midgame sweeper. broken car go brrrrrrrr. A lot. While it doesn't have quite the set diversity of Blastoise, it does at least have some coverage mixups (usually iron head/tera blast). But for the most part it just has a near-unresisted coverage combo in poison/ground, a really good defensive typing with its air balloon up, and therefore really easy setup opportunities. It only needs a single shift gear to get going, and has some of that juicy 30% chance to fuck your opponent over with gunk shot poisons or iron head flinches we all love. the third broken! Unlike the other two above it and a few below it, it has practically no mixup on its coverage and usually needs tera, but the upside is the single scariest non-blastoise sweeper in the tier. A well-played Yanmega is also very resistant to priority and revenge killing due to stacking speed boosts, protect to dodge first impression, and high enough bulk to take neutral priority moves without much trouble at least once, making it incredibly difficult to stop for other offensive teams. Air Slash is also a broken move that lets you beat any of your checks if you're brave enough. Blastoise, Yanmega, and Revavroom are staples of HO and one, two, or even all three are usually on every hazard stacking HO team. is kind of an exception to the speed rule, which is generally its biggest flaw as it's more liable to revenge killing than some of the others here, but it makes up for it with a very wide coverage movepool and even some cute utility options such as Prankster Taunt and Thunder Wave. Outside of TBolt and Grass Knot, it also can use Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast, Psychic, or even Tera Blast if you want, making it pretty hard to scout for teams that aren't able to outspeed its base 111 speed naturally. the best worst mon of all time. While some of these mons can hugely benefit from RNG with secondary effects, Hilligant's is a double-edged sword that can make it insanely strong but also it can just miss and screw you over hugely (can you tell I've been using this mon recently?). Teras Fire, Rock, and Ice are all viable sets for it, giving it a good bit of unpredictability outside of the rng inherent in a hustle mon. Another cute thing is Victory Dance's defense boost actually helps it live priority should you not be weak to it, which can make it deceptively difficult to stop. Sadly, it's a victim of Okidogi's success currently since the sheer amount of defensive Tera Poison mons can ruin its fun. the star of psychic terrain, but also very good on standard HO with either Calm Mind Weak Armor, or Endure Weakness Policy more commonly, creating a different scout situation than most of these since it's gonna be hitting you with the same attacks regardless and trying to revenge kill it can end very badly without priority. If it's not on a psychic terrain team, WP Endure is also extremely vulnerable to priority outside of being able to Endure through First Impression from slither wing, which can make it occasionally fragile. Grass/Fire/Psychic coverage is incredible for this tier, too. Grouping these together since they use the same boosting move and two abilities. Moxie snowball sweepers are fairly uncommon compared to the above ones since they're a little more feast or famine but they're still good! Gyarados in particular has been trending upwards in general recently, not just HO. Both of them have huge coverage movepools, with Gyarados additionally having Taunt to screw up certain defensive mons if it wants to, and both of them can also pivot to Intimidate for easier set up opportunities. The one you pick depends on your team, with Gyarados in particular struggling with bulky waters without tera and Mence having to go very deep into its coverage pool if it wants to beat Geezing. 
Also kind of similar. Daunt hits harder but Gatr is bulkier and sets up easier. Both of them can pick between DD and SD, although Daunt in practice is too slow for DD compared to Gatr. Gatr in particular is kind of a midground between Gyarados and Crawdaunt, which can make it struggle to stand out, but they're probably all about as decent as each other.
necessary for their playstyles to function but bad everywhere else, so I'm not gonna talk about them much here. Maybe I'll make a weather menu down the line.some other options include the aforementioned
and , as while as 
and more for more niche choices.
Part 3: Offensive Utility 
only does everything. While it's too weak to actually sweep anything besides opposing HO, the combination of its native ghost typing to block hazards, phenomenal defensive typing, and garaunteed red card trigger (except vs multihits or necrozma...) make it an incredible utility mon with huge role compression and a one-time check to nearly every dangerous setup sweeper in the tier. Mimikyu probably has the highest usage of anything here as an offensive check to literally anything letting you save a ton of space in the builder, even if its actual offensive prowess is pretty middling. While Mimikyu is your usual rapid spin blocker, these two are your usual defog deterrents, especially Bisharp due to its surprisingly high bulk with Eviolite and strong priority to make up for the speed difference. Unlike Mimikyu, Bisharp actually can sweep a team if you're good enough at sucker mindgames, while gapdos much more falls into the Revenge Killer category that I'll talk about later. unless you're insane enough to run Smash Spin Blastoise (protip: don't), this is the only real method of actually removing hazards HO runs since none of our spinners are super helpful to the playstyle and defog is unviable here since you don't wanna remove your own hazards. Both of them share Technician, Tidy Up and Encore, but Maushold is stronger due to population bomb being broken and is therefore usually run more. Cinccino differentiates itself with access to Knock Off, U-Turn, better coverage, and not immediately dying to rocky helmet, but it has severe 4MSS and can't run all of them at once. It is also notably faster, getting over thundy-I is really nice. One of them is also pretty integral to psychic terrain and/or sun, which appreciate getting hazards off much more than HO (although they can also run other spinners a bit better) HO focuses more on denying your opponent the ability to set up hazards early game than outright removing them, and Espeon is decent at that. It's not really bulky enough to abuse it much but just having it in the back makes clicking them a huge risk. It's also a great fit on psychic terrain thanks to access to Expanding Force and Armarouge's hazard weakness for the Endure set mandating removal more than the average HO team, and you can even go full gen 5 and put it on sun if you want to. Lastly, it's also probably the best non-klefki screens setter in the tier, since it blanks hazards while doing it, even if it's kind of squishy.
really good on rain for the role compression and mutual synergy, and really bad most everywhere else. This is generally how rain both lays hazards and gets them off. 
While Mimikyu can usually cover it, sometimes you want a more dedicated revenge killer, and that's where this category comes in. I singled out these three in particular since they're the most common, but most anything with strong priority or a fast enough scarfer like Gapdos or even Espeon can work too. Gardevoir is kinda slow for fast revenge killer standards, but is usually fast enough to get the job done, STAB moonblast from something with an actual spa stat forces very linear play, it comes with utility like Trick and Healing Wish, and trace makes it very useful in the weather matchups. First Impression just forgoes any guesswork about speed and always goes first, and slither has a bunch of sets it can run, but it's completely useless vs yanmega and slither in general is quite slow outside of Fimp, so your mileage may vary. Barraskewda is just a good fast pivot all around while being the centrepiece of rain, it helps rainproof your team and of these four specifically it's the least screwed over by Yanmega clicking protect on it since Tera STAB Aqua Jet really hurts it. Jirachi can theoretically also set rocks and be a setup sweeper, but in practice I think scarf fits the best on HO. It's very fast, has a great defensive profile for an offensive mon, can trick and pivot, and comes with that delicious 60% flinch chance if you want to win faster. Lastly, I don't have anywhere to put this since it's a huge outlier, but Volcanion is a solid pick for being a strong breaker, offensively checking Blastoise (as much as one can, Blastoise can kill it with Tera Electric Tera Blast or EQ, but if it's not running that you're good) and taunt shutting down boosting sweepers like Slowbro and Reuniclus that can otherwise give you a headache, so it's a decent way to plug holes on HO despite not really fitting into any general HO "category"God I said this would be a simple breakdown and nonexhaustive and this still turned into a novel. Hopefully this is a general guidline to help you get started, but don't be afraid to experiment! Maybe you can be the one who breaks the tier with like, Agility PZ or something. Go nuts!
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Hi all,
Following the Okidogi suspect test, the general consensus of the general playerbase is to perform tiering action on Hyper Offense archetypes. The issue with that philosophy is that this may lead to the council playing whack-a-mole with HO mons, i.e. we ban X and then Y becomes problematic, ban Y then Z becomes problematic and so on. One can say "Well perform a tiering survey", but that will just scatter the thoughts of which Pokemon to look at, I have seen people claiming that Blastoise is the most broken Pokemon, others claiming it's Revavroom or Yanmega or Maushold, meaning that we, the RU community as a whole cannot decide on a single Pokemon and keep complaining about HO. So it is a good idea for us to decide exactly what Pokemon should be looked at first. There is also the feeling amidst the general playerbase is that councilis an HO syndicate is disconnected from the playerbase, especially when deciding to suspect Okidogi over a HO mon. While we did give our input in the suspect thread, it seems that the satisfactory level of the playerbase isn't as expected. Therefore, I urge council members to give their thoughts on the Pokemon listed above, and maybe more if they feel like.
Below are my thoughts regarding each HO Pokemon, note that these are my thoughts only:
- A significant portion of the playerbase think Blastoise is the most broken Pokemon in the tier, with Shell Smash, Blastoise is one of the best sweepers for HO teams, prior to tier shift, it was more threatening, as Tera Electic + Tera Blast sets dominated the tier, with only mons such as Tera Fairy + Dragon Tail Cyclizar or Tera Ground Volcanion could live a hit and either phase it away or threaten it. Now that Goodra-H is in the tier, mixed sets with Tera Ground + Earthquake is more appealing, although they lose to bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Milotic, and to a lesser extent, Vaporeon.
- Shift Gear makes it super fast and strong and can almost always clean late game. The meta did develop and start using Tera Steel + Levitate mons such as Weezing-G, Rotom-H, Rotom-C, but other than that, it is still extremely threatening especially gaining access to Serene Grace due to its amazing coverage.
- Throat Spray + Speed Boost sets are really strong, especially with Tera Ground (which is pmuch mandatory now after Goodra-H dropped). It is however, 4x weak to Stealth Rock, and loses a lot of offensive power if it gets phased away after the Throat Spray boost. I think the next mon really helps Yanmega.
- Tidy Up gives HO hazard control. Population Bomb is fucking ridiculous as a move, especially with Tera Normal, as it can OHKO even resists. Bullet Seed has been raising in popularity due to its ability to lure common Rocky Helmet Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Slowbro. Maushold gaining access to Encore also makes it much easier in practice to set up with Tidy Up, giving an easier time for Yanmega to switch in, as well as making Maushold extremely threatening. Losing Cobalion means that it can also forego running Low Kick, as a boosted Tera Normal or a defensive Tera Ghost has more firepower or utility overall.
If I had to pinpoint at a single direction, it would be Maushold, it removes hazards for HO teams, which usually play with hazards on their side, uses Encore and allows Revavroom, Blastoise, and especially Yanmega to set up easier. Moreover, regarding "playing whack-a-mole", if we ban another mon, there are still a lot of HO mons that can take its place, off the top of my head, I can think of Dragon Dance Salamence, Agility Porygon-Z, Nasty Plot Thundurus. But if we get rid of Maushold, it will affect the archetype as a whole, as well as remove the uncompetitiveness and the sheer bullshit of the move Population Bomb.
I'd like the community's input on these mons, feel free to include more mons, but make sure to talk about the four I have mentioned above, because I think these four are the main issues of the HO archetype.
Following the Okidogi suspect test, the general consensus of the general playerbase is to perform tiering action on Hyper Offense archetypes. The issue with that philosophy is that this may lead to the council playing whack-a-mole with HO mons, i.e. we ban X and then Y becomes problematic, ban Y then Z becomes problematic and so on. One can say "Well perform a tiering survey", but that will just scatter the thoughts of which Pokemon to look at, I have seen people claiming that Blastoise is the most broken Pokemon, others claiming it's Revavroom or Yanmega or Maushold, meaning that we, the RU community as a whole cannot decide on a single Pokemon and keep complaining about HO. So it is a good idea for us to decide exactly what Pokemon should be looked at first. There is also the feeling amidst the general playerbase is that council
Below are my thoughts regarding each HO Pokemon, note that these are my thoughts only:
- A significant portion of the playerbase think Blastoise is the most broken Pokemon in the tier, with Shell Smash, Blastoise is one of the best sweepers for HO teams, prior to tier shift, it was more threatening, as Tera Electic + Tera Blast sets dominated the tier, with only mons such as Tera Fairy + Dragon Tail Cyclizar or Tera Ground Volcanion could live a hit and either phase it away or threaten it. Now that Goodra-H is in the tier, mixed sets with Tera Ground + Earthquake is more appealing, although they lose to bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Milotic, and to a lesser extent, Vaporeon. - Shift Gear makes it super fast and strong and can almost always clean late game. The meta did develop and start using Tera Steel + Levitate mons such as Weezing-G, Rotom-H, Rotom-C, but other than that, it is still extremely threatening - Throat Spray + Speed Boost sets are really strong, especially with Tera Ground (which is pmuch mandatory now after Goodra-H dropped). It is however, 4x weak to Stealth Rock, and loses a lot of offensive power if it gets phased away after the Throat Spray boost. I think the next mon really helps Yanmega. - Tidy Up gives HO hazard control. Population Bomb is fucking ridiculous as a move, especially with Tera Normal, as it can OHKO even resists. Bullet Seed has been raising in popularity due to its ability to lure common Rocky Helmet Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Slowbro. Maushold gaining access to Encore also makes it much easier in practice to set up with Tidy Up, giving an easier time for Yanmega to switch in, as well as making Maushold extremely threatening. Losing Cobalion means that it can also forego running Low Kick, as a boosted Tera Normal or a defensive Tera Ghost has more firepower or utility overall. If I had to pinpoint at a single direction, it would be Maushold, it removes hazards for HO teams, which usually play with hazards on their side, uses Encore and allows Revavroom, Blastoise, and especially Yanmega to set up easier. Moreover, regarding "playing whack-a-mole", if we ban another mon, there are still a lot of HO mons that can take its place, off the top of my head, I can think of Dragon Dance Salamence, Agility Porygon-Z, Nasty Plot Thundurus. But if we get rid of Maushold, it will affect the archetype as a whole, as well as remove the uncompetitiveness and the sheer bullshit of the move Population Bomb.
I'd like the community's input on these mons, feel free to include more mons, but make sure to talk about the four I have mentioned above, because I think these four are the main issues of the HO archetype.
I've said before that while Maushold might not be the strongest pokemon in the tier, and probably not the strongest pokemon on HO, it's the most bannable one. It just contributes nothing but bad things to the tier, forcing even some very offensive teams to pack a rocky helmet mon they don't really want because they otherwise get 6-0ed by the mice. Even the tier's normal resists require significant physdef investment to not be 2hkoed by pop bomb or just ohkoed by a +1 pop bomb if they're at like 70% after having to switch into another mon in the early game. +1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 290-340 (77.9 - 91.3%) this is a bulky steel type with max hp and it still has to never touch the field until the endgame if it wants to live a mid roll from pop bomb. Priority isn't even a safe way to beat the mice due to popular tera types giving the mice a resistance to slither wing's first impression or entei's extremespeed. The adjustments it requires teams to make in order to not just get swept by one move make it so the rest of the HO team has an easier time breaking through. Having to run rocky helmet hippo or gweezing means you aren't running, say, krookodile as a more offensive rocker that can shut down a lot of HO mons or leftovers gweezing that can actually stay healthy to deal with multiple threats.
In second place on the bannability index I would place yanmega, simply because of the value over replacement it gives HO teams and the fact that most of its "walls" come out of the 1v1 dead or barely alive thinking "at least I burned their tera". In a single turn, yanmega can simultaneously throw off a powerful STAB attack, boost its SpA and boost its speed, and protect means that it is able to just boost its speed before taking a hit if need be. No other pokemon can really do what Yanmega does. If you ban blastoise, then maybe drednaw becomes a slightly worse blastoise. If you ban Yanmega, nothing can truly fill the hole it leaves, giving HO teams a weakness that can be exploited, making mons like blastoise and revavroom easier to deal with. You can feel more comfortable using hippowdon to answer revavroom when you know that you won't just be inviting in yanmega to revenge kill you and get a free quiver dance at the same time, to use an example.
In second place on the bannability index I would place yanmega, simply because of the value over replacement it gives HO teams and the fact that most of its "walls" come out of the 1v1 dead or barely alive thinking "at least I burned their tera". In a single turn, yanmega can simultaneously throw off a powerful STAB attack, boost its SpA and boost its speed, and protect means that it is able to just boost its speed before taking a hit if need be. No other pokemon can really do what Yanmega does. If you ban blastoise, then maybe drednaw becomes a slightly worse blastoise. If you ban Yanmega, nothing can truly fill the hole it leaves, giving HO teams a weakness that can be exploited, making mons like blastoise and revavroom easier to deal with. You can feel more comfortable using hippowdon to answer revavroom when you know that you won't just be inviting in yanmega to revenge kill you and get a free quiver dance at the same time, to use an example.
Maushold is incredibly bullshit with the fact that it's presence alone forces u to run an entire item in RH just to not insta lose on non-HO archetypes. In fact let's look at the number of noteworthy and/or reasonable Rocky Helmet mons in the tier.
Hippo, 
Slowbro, Chesnaught, Amoong, 
GWeez, Forry, 
Gastro, Reuni, Krook
Notice a trend? Most of these are mons that either fit on Balance, Fat/BO, or Stall normally and may not always be the most splashable. This doesn't even include the fact that some of these mons that run RH are foregoing a better item or want something else in some cases. Example: Slowbro wants boots or even covert cloak, Weezer sometimes wants lefties and Forry is kinda in shitmon territory. Even Gastrodon doesn't always want helmet and would rather run boots with sticky hold in some cases. The only fucking splashable mon on this list I mentioned that can feasibly run RH on non balance/fat comps is fucking Krookodile and even that doesn't even feel like it's being ran because it's a good but rather cuz there isn't many other better alternatives.
Usually, a team can only really afford to fit 1 helmet user even if they run multiple mons that could run RH cuz u will have a more miserable time with hazards and getting worn down in the long run. I haven't even mentioned how regen mons like Amoong and Slowbro usually have to switch in frequently to begin with where they are very likely to lose their helmet from knock.
This doesn't even get into the whole tera dynamic with Maus where Maus just flip an MU like Teraing on a Slither attempting to revenge with FI with tera fire or tera ghost for fighters and just killing it since the most common method of handling it offensively is through priority. Most forms of priority are vulnerable to a random tera flip or encore in the case of sucker which makes it even more infuriating. Maushold's base speed also being on par with Thundurus-Incarnate is incredibly oppressive given the next fastest mons are not exactly offensive powerhouses.
Hippo, Slowbro, Chesnaught, Amoong, GWeez, Forry, Gastro, Reuni, KrookNotice a trend? Most of these are mons that either fit on Balance, Fat/BO, or Stall normally and may not always be the most splashable. This doesn't even include the fact that some of these mons that run RH are foregoing a better item or want something else in some cases. Example: Slowbro wants boots or even covert cloak, Weezer sometimes wants lefties and Forry is kinda in shitmon territory. Even Gastrodon doesn't always want helmet and would rather run boots with sticky hold in some cases. The only fucking splashable mon on this list I mentioned that can feasibly run RH on non balance/fat comps is fucking Krookodile and even that doesn't even feel like it's being ran because it's a good but rather cuz there isn't many other better alternatives.
Usually, a team can only really afford to fit 1 helmet user even if they run multiple mons that could run RH cuz u will have a more miserable time with hazards and getting worn down in the long run. I haven't even mentioned how regen mons like Amoong and Slowbro usually have to switch in frequently to begin with where they are very likely to lose their helmet from knock.
This doesn't even get into the whole tera dynamic with Maus where Maus just flip an MU like Teraing on a Slither attempting to revenge with FI with tera fire or tera ghost for fighters and just killing it since the most common method of handling it offensively is through priority. Most forms of priority are vulnerable to a random tera flip or encore in the case of sucker which makes it even more infuriating. Maushold's base speed also being on par with Thundurus-Incarnate is incredibly oppressive given the next fastest mons are not exactly offensive powerhouses.
While I think Yanmega and Revaroom when looked at alone isn't necessarily "problematic" per say. I think they need to be looked at together specifically. Blastoise also somewhat applies here. Cuz a lot of teams are usually somewhat able to handle these threats in isolation but it kinda falls apart when all three are seen together as your backbones are likely not walking out of these encounters without taking significant chip which in turn makes them unable to handle subsequent threats properly and stuff like DTail Cyc is not exactly a reliable yan phazer either. Oh yeah and even when u factor in 4x rocks weakness, Yanmega at a little over 50% health is still dangerous that calling it the Volcarona of RU would be very appropriate.
RU already has a variance issue with HO given Yan and Rev are both HO Staples that has been present for many months that can just make ur otherwise sound defensive counterplay not very stable given the tier's issue with having solid defensive cores that can be leaned on and not instantly fold. We already saw how stupid shit like Iron Jugulis was in RULT just randomly flinching ur checks and Yanmega and Rev have only picked up on that.
Ur wondering where toise falls into all of this, well the thing with Toise is that it can reasonably run a mixed set in eq to just stomp out otherwise ok defensive checks like Empoleon that would hope force toise to burn a tera to beat it or even Hoodra which in theory should help against toise but is not exactly sound either cuz ur not missing much with surf ib eq besides maybe slowbro and then slowbro takes a lot from boosted surfs and has to be wary of putting it in torrent range.
So take 2 mons that can randomly bullshit its way out of what should otherwise be sound counterplay, and a mixed sweeper and its no wonder why people frown upon HO's presence in the tier. No, I am not proposing Kokolokko tiering, I don't think the tier is THAT dire. I just kinda needed to get it out of my system.
RU already has a variance issue with HO given Yan and Rev are both HO Staples that has been present for many months that can just make ur otherwise sound defensive counterplay not very stable given the tier's issue with having solid defensive cores that can be leaned on and not instantly fold. We already saw how stupid shit like Iron Jugulis was in RULT just randomly flinching ur checks and Yanmega and Rev have only picked up on that.
Ur wondering where toise falls into all of this, well the thing with Toise is that it can reasonably run a mixed set in eq to just stomp out otherwise ok defensive checks like Empoleon that would hope force toise to burn a tera to beat it or even Hoodra which in theory should help against toise but is not exactly sound either cuz ur not missing much with surf ib eq besides maybe slowbro and then slowbro takes a lot from boosted surfs and has to be wary of putting it in torrent range.
So take 2 mons that can randomly bullshit its way out of what should otherwise be sound counterplay, and a mixed sweeper and its no wonder why people frown upon HO's presence in the tier. No, I am not proposing Kokolokko tiering, I don't think the tier is THAT dire. I just kinda needed to get it out of my system.
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I've covered my thoughts on toise in more than one post here and extensively on discord, every serious HO team is anchored by it since it can tailor itself to beat literally any check it has in a way that's basically impossible to scout since it's only ever changing one move and a tera and can just choose not to reveal them until it focus blasts your umbreon for an OHKO or something ridiculous. Countering it is genuinely impossible since you just have to send in your one check on zero information and just pray it's not hiding something that breaks your check and then sweeps your whole team after. It's also probably the sweeper most difficult for HO to replace thanks to its massive coverage without even being all that reliant on tera, other boosters with tera potential are either very inconsistent (Hilligant), have comparably much more limited coverage and therefore would be relying on tera blast (Cloyster, Hilligant again), or simply don't have the ability to set up in front of basically anything that toise does (Lucario, Infernape). A toise ban would very much change HO's structure away from "what am I luring with blastoise and how can my team take advantage of that" like it is now. both of these would be fine if flinching were not a mechanic but fuck a 30% chance to just immediately lose. Of the two of them I think Yanmega is more banworthy since it's basically immune to priority, although the fact that it can only boost SpA once means red card mimikkyu or any other phasing can (barely) contain it. If HO is still a problem after a theoretical blastoise ban, I'd probably go Yanmega > Revavroom after. I mean, I get it, but bringing it up feels a little behind the times. HO is very starved for slots and outside of psychic terrain where it's basically always there maushold's fallen to like, the 10th most important HO mon at this point. You're much more likely to see an HO with no removal and just gambling on the ho lead vs ho lead matchup working in their favour with the presence of taunt azelf/froslass and rock blast terrakion. While it does do something unique for the playstyle (cinccino nonwithstanding), it's also not actually that relevant to it anymore, which leads me to... here's something truly irreplaceable. while I'm not sure if I'd vote ban on it even, the existence of SD Red Card Mimikyu basically gives the playstyle a get out of jail free card for bad matchups or something that takes advantage of laying hazards to set up, while also coming with the bonus utility of spinblocking. Toise and Mimikyu feel like the only things actually on every HO team and Mimikyu notably gives it an insane defensive backbone when you're only aiming to play about 10-15 turns. HO would probably have significantly more bad matchups without it, even if on its own as a sweeper it's noticeably weak. I don't know. just want to throw that out there.tldr ban blastoise, it's a lot less replaceable than people make it out to be since nothing else in the tier can lure and beat all its checks like toise can. Then go for Yanmega or maybe Mimikyu after if it continues to be a problem
ps banning tera this late into the gen is silly
So I'm writing this in a 5 hour car drive with 10% battery on my phone and I'll give my thoughts on the HO mons. Note, besides the one that I specifically say I would not vote ban on, I would vote ban on any of these options.
The above post basically said my thoughts on Blastoise, it can't really be replicated on HO. Cloyster is slow as hell and requires sash, meaning if even a spike is up it essentially has no item. Even after a boost, scarf gar can outspeed it, which is not something that unreasonable. It also feels a lot less problematic to deal with due to it's coverage without tera being poor. Blastoise on the other hand, is bonkers. I do think that a set that drops ice beam and runs both t-blast electric and focus blast could be destructive, as that covers the main things that wall surf besides amoonguss. But this is more of a theory and something that I have to put in practice, so there is that. Every other mon cannot replicate what toise does (sorry minior, you are trash). It's bulk is insane, its power is insane and it puts so much stress on the builder.
Yanmega is a stupid mon, I'll say that first up. Yanmega is close behind Blastoise in terms of what I want banned. Despite the fact that it commonly has to take 50% switching in AND burn tera, it still is able to sweep teams semi-easily. The fact of the matter is, priority or tera'ing yourself is not a viable answer due to it's defensive typing and protect, which means a quick tera steel is not the guaranteed answer it should be. Then the flinch chance also rears its head and this mon is busted. It also doesn't even need to tera if it knows it can't sweep. It can just air slash flinch mons to let teammates clean up with tera. Not a mon that deserves to be in a healthy iteration of this tier (despite the fact I love it's design).
Tbh, I haven't really struggled with this mon. Yes, it can sweep unprepared teams, but it has to hang desperately onto it's air balloon and any super effective move is going to destroy it. A powerful mon, and one I would still ban, but def not my first choice.
The forerunner for this test, I think that some of the claims are a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, you do have to have rocky helmet on lots of mons due to maus, but some of them would still run the item like hippo, ches and geezing due to how amazing that passive chip is. Yes, tera ghost is a common answer, but tera ghost is still a good answer to many threats in this meta and not a waste. Now, saying this, is maushold still bannable? Absolutely. This mon is cheese, it should not be able to get through some of the mons it can and frankly is just disgusting. The hazard clearing effect is also massive for making sash threats and rock weak threats way more threatening.
This is the one mon I would not vote ban on. While the above statements are true, I don't think that red card is always going to be as impactful as it seems. Yes, stopping a sweep can be big, but there are methods around it. Knock off is the big one, as funnily enough the red card doesn't activate. This means mmq can be more of a sitting duck then it likes, and that's not the best thing in the world. You can also sometimes just... go for the sweep later. The red card is just delaying the inevitable, that mon is going to find a way back in. Whether that one phaze out is enough depends on the game, but mmq even after it's done is job I wouldn't call broken. It hits not that hard without LO and can feel like it struggles against bulkier mons, which can phaze it out and re-set momentum. I don't think mmq should be banned, it's a great mon for HO but not broken. Also I want to keep my anti cheese mon please, stopping random ladder sets from sweeping is the only thing keeping me sane
Finally, I'll talk about tera. Firstly, I'll say that this is not an attack on the person who posted the thread, frankly I applaud them as this was a discussion we had to have. Now, I don't think tera should be banned. I think something that is heavily overlooked by the pro tera ban side is that defensive tera is a MASSIVE tool for defensive play. I'll go over a few examples. Want to deal with maushold or fighting types? Well, you can tera ghost in order to deal with them. Want to deal with okidogi? Tera poison is the way to go. Want to stop slowbro or stored power sweepers temporarily from overwhelming you? Tera dark it is. Want to stop a Barra who is liquidating on your entire team? Tera water, grass or dragon are effective. Point being, tera can absolutely help just as much against abusers as it helps the abusers. I think if tera is banned, the number of things we would need to ban would be the same, just the mons specifically would be different. And at that point, I don't see a reason to change something so drastic. I will say though, I am on board with a tera blast ban. It neuters offensive tera specifically, while not having too much impact on defense. But that's my thoughts on tera.
The above post basically said my thoughts on Blastoise, it can't really be replicated on HO. Cloyster is slow as hell and requires sash, meaning if even a spike is up it essentially has no item. Even after a boost, scarf gar can outspeed it, which is not something that unreasonable. It also feels a lot less problematic to deal with due to it's coverage without tera being poor. Blastoise on the other hand, is bonkers. I do think that a set that drops ice beam and runs both t-blast electric and focus blast could be destructive, as that covers the main things that wall surf besides amoonguss. But this is more of a theory and something that I have to put in practice, so there is that. Every other mon cannot replicate what toise does (sorry minior, you are trash). It's bulk is insane, its power is insane and it puts so much stress on the builder. Yanmega is a stupid mon, I'll say that first up. Yanmega is close behind Blastoise in terms of what I want banned. Despite the fact that it commonly has to take 50% switching in AND burn tera, it still is able to sweep teams semi-easily. The fact of the matter is, priority or tera'ing yourself is not a viable answer due to it's defensive typing and protect, which means a quick tera steel is not the guaranteed answer it should be. Then the flinch chance also rears its head and this mon is busted. It also doesn't even need to tera if it knows it can't sweep. It can just air slash flinch mons to let teammates clean up with tera. Not a mon that deserves to be in a healthy iteration of this tier (despite the fact I love it's design). Tbh, I haven't really struggled with this mon. Yes, it can sweep unprepared teams, but it has to hang desperately onto it's air balloon and any super effective move is going to destroy it. A powerful mon, and one I would still ban, but def not my first choice. The forerunner for this test, I think that some of the claims are a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, you do have to have rocky helmet on lots of mons due to maus, but some of them would still run the item like hippo, ches and geezing due to how amazing that passive chip is. Yes, tera ghost is a common answer, but tera ghost is still a good answer to many threats in this meta and not a waste. Now, saying this, is maushold still bannable? Absolutely. This mon is cheese, it should not be able to get through some of the mons it can and frankly is just disgusting. The hazard clearing effect is also massive for making sash threats and rock weak threats way more threatening. This is the one mon I would not vote ban on. While the above statements are true, I don't think that red card is always going to be as impactful as it seems. Yes, stopping a sweep can be big, but there are methods around it. Knock off is the big one, as funnily enough the red card doesn't activate. This means mmq can be more of a sitting duck then it likes, and that's not the best thing in the world. You can also sometimes just... go for the sweep later. The red card is just delaying the inevitable, that mon is going to find a way back in. Whether that one phaze out is enough depends on the game, but mmq even after it's done is job I wouldn't call broken. It hits not that hard without LO and can feel like it struggles against bulkier mons, which can phaze it out and re-set momentum. I don't think mmq should be banned, it's a great mon for HO but not broken. Finally, I'll talk about tera. Firstly, I'll say that this is not an attack on the person who posted the thread, frankly I applaud them as this was a discussion we had to have. Now, I don't think tera should be banned. I think something that is heavily overlooked by the pro tera ban side is that defensive tera is a MASSIVE tool for defensive play. I'll go over a few examples. Want to deal with maushold or fighting types? Well, you can tera ghost in order to deal with them. Want to deal with okidogi? Tera poison is the way to go. Want to stop slowbro or stored power sweepers temporarily from overwhelming you? Tera dark it is. Want to stop a Barra who is liquidating on your entire team? Tera water, grass or dragon are effective. Point being, tera can absolutely help just as much against abusers as it helps the abusers. I think if tera is banned, the number of things we would need to ban would be the same, just the mons specifically would be different. And at that point, I don't see a reason to change something so drastic. I will say though, I am on board with a tera blast ban. It neuters offensive tera specifically, while not having too much impact on defense. But that's my thoughts on tera.
This is exactly why I have been saying that Maushold is a bullshit, dishonest mon that should have been banned a long time ago. Having to run Helmet as counterplay on non-HO teams so you don’t auto-lose to Maus is an example of how it warps its checks around it. Cobalion and Moltres both helped to deter Maus while they were around on account of their abilities and, in Coba’s case, typing and bulk, but now that they’re gone the rats have become problematic again. Maus forces very specific passive counterplay on the part of the defending team. Fast Encore is diabolical and screws with any attempts at Sucker Punch/Fimp. Our relevant scarfers are all base 110 speed or lower, so revenge killing is hardly a reliable option when it’s at +1 speed. Tidy Up removing hazards to enable Yanmega and other HO mons is, to me, a relevant but ultimately secondary reason to ban Maus, as many HO teams use hazards of their own to be successful.
That said, I think Blastoise is the most problematic mon in the tier in terms of its lynchpin role on HO specifically. Miyami’s thoughts on Stoise above are similar to mine.
tl;dr why not just ban both?
Firstly I’d like to say I have a lot of respect for the tier leaders and council trying to tier this batshit crazy gen. It does feel like we are playing a bit of whack-a-mole with threats where one pops up to immediately take the place of the next on HO, but I think as long as we are thinking things through and trying to limit the most egregious broken mons it’s worth trying. I think the bans we have put in place have helped limit the most broken elements of the playstyle, namely immediate speed control with Jugulis and Iron Leaves that make it so hard for teams to take back momentum vs. HO.
Speaking of immediate speed control, and the ability to completely swing momentum on HO’s favor, Yanmega is in my opinion the biggest weapon HO has on this front. Yanmega of course does not offer the same immediate speed control as booster energy pokemon, but having to protect for its +1 boost is not too far off. Any Pokémon left in bug buzz kill range and slower than yanmega is of course complete setup fodder and gives yanmega its boost without contesting any of its health, but even a faster pokemon is not safe if it’s outsped at +1. The best position to deny yanmega is to have a scarfer that is faster at +1 like scarf gapdos, but it needs to already be on the field to do so. If a pokemon slower than +1 yanmega is on the field, your entire team WILL be outsped unless you have some way to abuse protect like with trick room and can catch Yanmega clicking protect or survive it’s hit. So, really your best and most consistent way of beating it is with something that can take its boosted STABs or coverage that can kill back from full, or combine with priority to take it out (we don’t have strong enough priority to even really hit yanmega for half its health factoring in Tera, let alone KOing it outright, that boy is BULKY.) Protect is also problematic not just for giving yanmega enough speed to flinch the entire tier, but also gives it a tool to scout opposing defensive Tera. Even though Yanmega itself is certainly a Tera hog, the opponent still needs to bring out that pokemon to force that Tera like a goodra or A-Muk. If Yanmega wants to, it can protect on a turn it expects defensive Tera, and can’t really be punished for it unless the opponent sets up at the same time. If the opponent doesn’t Tera, they now need to win a SECOND Tera 50/50 with yanmega, which always has the option of just clicking air slash and even if they get the Tera type wrong, there’s a 28% chance that the yanmega user gets bailed out anyway. We just do not have enough pokemon with the right typing and bulk to beat this absolutely stupid coverage, combined with one of the easiest neutral moves to ever click in the history of the game in boosted STAB air slash if there’s no super effective option. Tera steel levitate is not uncommon thankfully, but it kind of negates yanmega’s whole Tera hog downside if it just gets to trade Tera for tera in these games. Obviously as Evi said Tera is more important for the HO side so it’s not a terrible option.
I’ve avoided touching on Stealth Rock up until now which is obviously yanmega’s most exploitable flaw, but I do generally agree that Maushold is an incredible partner to guarantee essentially that rocks leave the field for the bug’s entry. What I’d rather discuss is another problem with the “just get rocks up get good” argument. Yes, Kleavor HO is easy enough to keep rocks up against, but Terrakion and Froslass have enough speed to deny rocks from just about anything they want. HO using taunt leads to deny rocks isn’t anything new, so surely you’ll be able to get rocks against them with proper play. I certainly have a hard time doing it against a team built to stop them, but maybe mad cause bad. The other problem besides taunt and the mice though, is that yanmega itself can come in on the turn rocks are going up, and does a pretty damn good job of bullying the common stealth rock setters! With Rhyperior gone, hippowdon and Krookodile are the most common rocking grounds. Hippowdon needs stone edge to really make yanmega gaf, and needs to be pretty healthy to take that big buzz or air slash when yanmega comes in. For this reason, I really think hippowdon needs quite a bit of sp. def investment to take it on and is my preferred set at this point. Stealth rock into whirlwind can work, but you’re taking a big hit while potentially whirlwinding into a pokemon you can’t stay healthy on which is great for Yanmega’s teammates. Stone edge is great but can miss and doesn’t do much to Tera ground yanmega if they’re ready to pull the trigger. Krook needs to always play mind games with either clicking knock off on the yanmega switch, or getting rocks up to cripple it later. If you rock on the switch to yanmega, you’re set up fodder when you stay in on protect or set up fodder if you switch to something on the bug buzz. You gotta outplay in that case, potentially multiple times! Well, what about some other stealth rock options? Jirachi has a hard time doing significant damage to yanmega and needs to go hunting for body slam paralysis once yanmega is in while dying to buzz+tbground, maybe you can encore on the bug buzz and get out of there but you just let your rachi take damage while wasting throat spray in return. Not a bad trade but one that still allows yanmega to come in later while you didn’t do damage to it. Registeel is another common pick but is a steel that gets completely walled without twave so that’s great. Gligar has toxic which is actually great at limiting yanmega so +1 for our silly bat friend. Gastrodon can ice beam for big damage and stuffs blastoise, but there in lies the problem, you kind of need it healthy for toise. The issue with calling out yanmega switching in on rocks is that HO is always ready to play the “sack my mon and let in my next sweeper” game, so I feel that I’m kind of forced to rock up for yanmega while simultaneously letting it switch in on that rocks turn if it chooses to.
in summary, I feel like yanmega puts too much pressure on the hazard setters while already stacking the deck in its favor with taunt and tidy up support.
For that reason, I agree with some posters before me pointing out Maushold as a key issue on HO, it does provide the incredible hazard removal along with the nuke button that makes rock-weak pokemon like Yanmega and Armarouge so hard to stop. It also easily clears Tspikes which are typically a great way to limit grounded HO sweepers and lets defensive pokemon kill them faster. I also don’t agree that the mice aren’t common enough to justify suspecting them, and that HO has better options. Yanmega+Maus is still one of the strongest HO picks right now and we’ve seen them quite frequently in RUGL and Swiss. The mice are extemely cheesy and combined with these rock weak HO sweepers are arguably broken. Sufficient reasoning for a suspect IMO.
Speaking of immediate speed control, and the ability to completely swing momentum on HO’s favor, Yanmega is in my opinion the biggest weapon HO has on this front. Yanmega of course does not offer the same immediate speed control as booster energy pokemon, but having to protect for its +1 boost is not too far off. Any Pokémon left in bug buzz kill range and slower than yanmega is of course complete setup fodder and gives yanmega its boost without contesting any of its health, but even a faster pokemon is not safe if it’s outsped at +1. The best position to deny yanmega is to have a scarfer that is faster at +1 like scarf gapdos, but it needs to already be on the field to do so. If a pokemon slower than +1 yanmega is on the field, your entire team WILL be outsped unless you have some way to abuse protect like with trick room and can catch Yanmega clicking protect or survive it’s hit. So, really your best and most consistent way of beating it is with something that can take its boosted STABs or coverage that can kill back from full, or combine with priority to take it out (we don’t have strong enough priority to even really hit yanmega for half its health factoring in Tera, let alone KOing it outright, that boy is BULKY.) Protect is also problematic not just for giving yanmega enough speed to flinch the entire tier, but also gives it a tool to scout opposing defensive Tera. Even though Yanmega itself is certainly a Tera hog, the opponent still needs to bring out that pokemon to force that Tera like a goodra or A-Muk. If Yanmega wants to, it can protect on a turn it expects defensive Tera, and can’t really be punished for it unless the opponent sets up at the same time. If the opponent doesn’t Tera, they now need to win a SECOND Tera 50/50 with yanmega, which always has the option of just clicking air slash and even if they get the Tera type wrong, there’s a 28% chance that the yanmega user gets bailed out anyway. We just do not have enough pokemon with the right typing and bulk to beat this absolutely stupid coverage, combined with one of the easiest neutral moves to ever click in the history of the game in boosted STAB air slash if there’s no super effective option. Tera steel levitate is not uncommon thankfully, but it kind of negates yanmega’s whole Tera hog downside if it just gets to trade Tera for tera in these games. Obviously as Evi said Tera is more important for the HO side so it’s not a terrible option.I’ve avoided touching on Stealth Rock up until now which is obviously yanmega’s most exploitable flaw, but I do generally agree that Maushold is an incredible partner to guarantee essentially that rocks leave the field for the bug’s entry. What I’d rather discuss is another problem with the “just get rocks up get good” argument. Yes, Kleavor HO is easy enough to keep rocks up against, but Terrakion and Froslass have enough speed to deny rocks from just about anything they want. HO using taunt leads to deny rocks isn’t anything new, so surely you’ll be able to get rocks against them with proper play. I certainly have a hard time doing it against a team built to stop them, but maybe mad cause bad. The other problem besides taunt and the mice though, is that yanmega itself can come in on the turn rocks are going up, and does a pretty damn good job of bullying the common stealth rock setters! With Rhyperior gone, hippowdon and Krookodile are the most common rocking grounds. Hippowdon needs stone edge to really make yanmega gaf, and needs to be pretty healthy to take that big buzz or air slash when yanmega comes in. For this reason, I really think hippowdon needs quite a bit of sp. def investment to take it on and is my preferred set at this point. Stealth rock into whirlwind can work, but you’re taking a big hit while potentially whirlwinding into a pokemon you can’t stay healthy on which is great for Yanmega’s teammates. Stone edge is great but can miss and doesn’t do much to Tera ground yanmega if they’re ready to pull the trigger. Krook needs to always play mind games with either clicking knock off on the yanmega switch, or getting rocks up to cripple it later. If you rock on the switch to yanmega, you’re set up fodder when you stay in on protect or set up fodder if you switch to something on the bug buzz. You gotta outplay in that case, potentially multiple times! Well, what about some other stealth rock options? Jirachi has a hard time doing significant damage to yanmega and needs to go hunting for body slam paralysis once yanmega is in while dying to buzz+tbground, maybe you can encore on the bug buzz and get out of there but you just let your rachi take damage while wasting throat spray in return. Not a bad trade but one that still allows yanmega to come in later while you didn’t do damage to it. Registeel is another common pick but is a steel that gets completely walled without twave so that’s great. Gligar has toxic which is actually great at limiting yanmega so +1 for our silly bat friend. Gastrodon can ice beam for big damage and stuffs blastoise, but there in lies the problem, you kind of need it healthy for toise. The issue with calling out yanmega switching in on rocks is that HO is always ready to play the “sack my mon and let in my next sweeper” game, so I feel that I’m kind of forced to rock up for yanmega while simultaneously letting it switch in on that rocks turn if it chooses to.
in summary, I feel like yanmega puts too much pressure on the hazard setters while already stacking the deck in its favor with taunt and tidy up support.
For that reason, I agree with some posters before me pointing out Maushold as a key issue on HO, it does provide the incredible hazard removal along with the nuke button that makes rock-weak pokemon like Yanmega and Armarouge so hard to stop. It also easily clears Tspikes which are typically a great way to limit grounded HO sweepers and lets defensive pokemon kill them faster. I also don’t agree that the mice aren’t common enough to justify suspecting them, and that HO has better options. Yanmega+Maus is still one of the strongest HO picks right now and we’ve seen them quite frequently in RUGL and Swiss. The mice are extemely cheesy and combined with these rock weak HO sweepers are arguably broken. Sufficient reasoning for a suspect IMO.
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