Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

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malomyotismon said:
No?
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It definitely can - its best moves are Knock Off (which doesn't require Protean to hit at full power), and Flower Trick (which is actively helped by Overgrow!). Leaf Storm is also an option on Sash sets - and, if you're running one of those, Overgrow is suddenly a very attractive option to get max power out of the extra turn Sash is giving you.

Doubly so if you're trying to keep STAB on Flower Trick while using Spikes.
 
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Fablle said:
why is garc -s instead of s? I think tera fairy brings it to a s tier mon.
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The need of tera is why it is -s, Tusk and Gholdengo can do what they do without having to tera, they can tera but it is just an option. Basically it is a matter of consistency, Garg has to tera to expliot all its potential but sometimes you need to tera other thing so Garg loses a lot of value.

Also, why Gyarados does has a niche actually? I haven't seen one in SV and while building a team is very hard to justify using it compared with all the other options, I believe it should drop.
 
Mega Breloom said:
The need of tera is why it is -s, Tusk and Gholdengo can do what they do without having to tera, they can tera but it is just an option. Basically it is a matter of consistency, Garg has to tera to expliot all its potential but sometimes you need to tera other thing so Garg loses a lot of value.

Also, why Gyarados does has a niche actually? I haven't seen one in SV and while building a team is very hard to justify using it compared with all the other options, I believe it should drop.
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I haven't seen one in ages either, but my guess is that bulky versions can switch into Iron Tusks pretty well and DD. With that said, it's already sitting in C, so talking about drops for it is really getting too far into the weeds.
 
Rootb said:
It definitely can - its best moves are Knock Off (which doesn't require Protean to hit at full power), and Flower Trick (which is actively helped by Overgrow!). Leaf Storm is also an option on Sash sets - and, if you're running one of those, Overgrow is suddenly a very attractive option to get max power out of the extra turn Sash is giving you.

Doubly so if you're trying to keep STAB on Flower Trick while using Spikes.
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Plus Overgrow can actually make use of a Tera besides Grass (and especially with grass) whereas you'd only tera Protean Meow outta desperation from what I've seen.

I'm not saying it's a replacement for Protean, but if one cares so badly about having a (very useful) STAB U-Turn, Tera Bug if you have nothing better to Tera this match. Or Tera Fairy for Play Rough, sky's the limit since it's blessed to have half of it's most common attacks possess STAB and very useful effects. It can afford to Tera for a third, while keeping the 4th for purr ulitily

I'm just theorymoning right now while this bowl wears off.
 
Soiramio3000 said:
I am trying to use walking wake for first time, does anyone know any sets to reccomend me?
its movepool seems very poor.
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The VR thread is not the place for questions like these, use the SQSA (or even metagame discussion) thread in the future.

To answer your question, it depends on teammates etc. but Choice Specs is probably the go-to set:

Walking Wake @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water / Dragon / Fire / Steel / Fairy / Poison
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe OR 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump / Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower / Hurricane / Tera Blast
- Hydro Steam / Hurricane / Tera Blast
 
pelipper.gif
B- to B

Even though rain teams haven’t seen that much popularity in the meta, choice specs Pelipper without damp rock hits like a truck by itself, with STAB rain boosted surfs it can brute force through many defensive pokémon such as Orthworm, defensive Gholdengo, Corviknight, Ting-Lu, Great tusk, unaware Clodsire, Garganacl, Kingambit and Iron Treads. Additionally Pelipper has a 100% accurate STAB hurricane which can hit Amoonguss and defensive water types that likes to switchin to Surf.

Pelipper also has coverage in form of Ice beam that can throw off dragon types such as Dragonite, Dragapult or Roaring Moon trying to switch into a resisted surf. U-turn is a move for Pelipper that can be used to wear down water absorb Clodsire which has to stay over 74% health to not get 2hkod by hurricane, max spdef blissey or dragon types if it’s running hydro pump over ice beam.

The only pokémon in the meta right now that can resist both of Pelippers STAB options is rotom wash, but depending on its speed EVs it can only safely switch in one to two times without getting KOd.
If Pelipper runs 184 speed EVs with a Modest nature, it can outrun slow rotom and 4 speed EV Great Tusk. If the additional EVs get out in spdef, Pelipper can tank a choice specs Greninjas Ice beam 3/4 times and guaranteed to live choice scarf Gholdengos shadow ball after taking stealth rocks.

Even defensive walls such as SpDef Toxapex or water absorb Clodsire that can rank surfs without problem still struggles to switch in to hurricane since they both take about 40% health and can get confused as they try to recover spam.

It can also be quite challenging to remove the rain from Pelipper as the only pokémon that can set sand is Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Sanaconda, and the only pokémon being able to set sun up is Torkoal, which all four take drastic damage from surf even without the rain boost to it.

Pelipper is an amazing special wallbreaker even though it only has 100 base SpA that is heavily underlooked in the current meta, and unfortunately the only thing that is holding it back is it’s straight up bad speed tier being outspee but a lot of other offensive pokémon such as Iron Valiant or Dragapult keeping it at a B rank threat, though a ton of defensive teams still have to watch out for Pelipper.

Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 72 SpD Pelipper: 229-270 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 72 SpD Pelipper: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 171-202 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Orthworm in Rain: 471-555 (136.9 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo in Rain: 313-370 (82.8 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight in Rain: 331-391 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Rain: 368-434 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk in Rain: 966-1136 (222.5 - 261.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Garganacl in Rain: 620-732 (153.4 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Rain: 422-498 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit in Rain: 336-396 (91 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads in Rain: 780-918 (203.1 - 239%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash in Rain: 138-162 (45.3 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 258-304 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 328-388 (103.4 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 186-222 (46 - 54.9%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 344-408 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandaconda in Rain: 786-926 (225.8 - 266%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 260-308 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Oh boy, this thread looking kinda dead, let's revive it with some noms

:Walking Wake: UR --------> A

As some of you might know, this thing hits hard, and its fast for tier standards, in sun is basically broken due to its natural combination of stabs and typing in sun, it has some offensive checks like meow, gren, draga, iron moth, etc. but its counters are more on the defensive side, weather changes and no boosting move for its special side really fuck this thing, it still a bit underexplored due to only being out for like 2 days, but it's good

:Kingambit: A+ --------> S

I have no actual argument for this one, I just like shouting THE ONE PIECE IS REAL each time I get a +2 + a kill

:Slowking: B+ ---------> A-

If it wasn't for already being good in balance, its hail and ability to ruin Wake makes it an all around great mon that generates momentum for balance teams, reliable recovery + FS means chip and most teams have a problem killing it if you're not specifically prioritizing it, snow also means no rain, which is also gonna rise as a way to abuse and counter walking wake

:Sylveon: C ------------> C+

Hey God, its me again, this girl now counters Walking Wake and the new Hisuin Zoroark, and due to the massive damage wake does, you might need some wish support, it doesn't care about most special attackers except for some specific stuff, it also partners kinda well with zoroark because both like to partner with Kingambit, and he appreciates the lure for fighting types and wish support
 
Well then, considering the recent trend of pex slowly getting worse again and being too passive I got a nom for a mon that absolutely loves some of the meta changes that have happened with pex on the decline and orthworm/grimmsnarl on the rise I have a nom for a mon that loves these meta changes.

1675881488436.png

B --> B+/A-

Quaq absolutely loves getting free switchins from shed tail as it can set up freely for a turn or two on faster threats and catch up to them and snowball more easily thanks to all orthworm and grimmsnarl being ran nowadays giving it more bulk and staying power, sure it still needs to deal with water absorb clod and pex as haze can completely shut it down along with their typings being problematic for it, but with the correct counters for pex/clod supporting it this thing can just completely sweep teams or put them in unfavorable positions. Quaq is a huge winner from Pex getting worse, as well being a huge winner from Orthworm/Grimmsnarl cores being so good, as as these free switchins and screens really help this mon thrive lately.

Also wanna plug an orthworm nom for like B+/A- since orth shed tail cores continue to be disgusting.
 
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lolgod3 said:
My opinion on the new mons and where they should be at
:walking wake: A+ / S-
:iron leaves: B / B-
:zoroark-hisui: A-
also put treads in C because of how overrated it is
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i think it's too early for a verdict on any of them barring walking wake who's obviously A+ at minimum. the other two need more time before we have a proper understanding of how they fit into the OU meta
 
lolgod3 said:
My opinion on the new mons and where they should be at
:walking wake: A+ / S-
:iron leaves: B / B-
:zoroark-hisui: A-
also put treads in C because of how overrated it is
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I do agree on treads falling, but C is way too much. Demoting it to B tier is reasonable enough imo
 
I Think that we should address the elephant, or may I say the Velociraptor, in the room:

:Walking Wake: UR-->A+


Now it is obviously early to assess how good this Pokémon will end up to be in gen 9 OU as it was released just a couple days ago, nonetheless I think that in this case it is particularly easy as, even if you can run a lot and I mean A LOT of different sets, Those pretty much always boil down to the same thing: Massive Water/Draconic damage + fire coverage coupled with respectable speed.

That’s essentially what you are going to do with WW and with tens of games on high ladder I think I can already give an estimation of how good this mon is going to be in gen 9 OU although without very high precision. It could end up lower or even banned given some time, nobody can 100% predict the future and it really depends on how the meta will evolve. With that being said let’s address:



The Ban Hypothesis

To me the ban argument, as of today, is simply out of question: Water/Dragon with 125 special attack and signature water move that benefits from sun instead of being nerfed is super scary, I can understand that, but with practical experience I’ve come to an understanding that it’s not the end of the world.

For instance we already have 3 mons that I would define without too many issues as walls: Absorb Clodsire,Slowking and Pex. I can already hear the argument “but prothosynthesis + specs + tera dragon Meteor Just nukes them omg ban plz”. Again, I get the reasoning, but those scenarios can be applied to literally everything. I think that scarf Protosynthesis Great Tusk with tera literally has no counters, even the Bulkiest mons cannot switch to it nor the fastest mons revenge kill it. Does it make Great Tusk OUBL? Of course, it doesn’t. Theory is one thing, practice is another. If you really want to go with maximum power Draco (i.e specs + proto sun + tera) you will inevitably make yourself very vulnerable to other things. Already having to run sun is a very important commitment as you limit heavily your team building options while also boosting your opponent Great Tusk and other past mons. There are huge trade-offs running sun and/or tera dragon on Wake and these should not be ignored.

With the most common sets WW will be walled by Clodsire, Slowking, Pex and tera water Garganacl (imo the best tera garga can run because deals well with Gholdengo, the gen 9 BOSS. This tera is also very good to not get 6 oed by rain teams).

These mons were already seeing high usage (Slowking on the lower end but still super usable in OU) therefore one cannot make the argument: you are running absorb clod and tera water garg just for WW, it’s broken. These mons were already legit before WW, now they are just even better than before as they deal very well with what I think will go down as a very solid A+ tier OU Velociraptor.



Again, not saying that ban is out of question forever, as of today I think that this argument is just very hard to justify. We kept chi yu for months and bro got significantly higher power, now this is not an argument but what I’m trying to say is that WW is powerful, but not THAT powerful.

On a final note, I want to say that when home drops I really think that the chances of Wake going to ubers drops significantly as we will have a good set of great special walls, among all Galarian Slowking. Home should be coming in the next couple months, so banning Wake now to me wouldn’t make too much sense. 125 special and 109 speed can be managed even if coupled with great typing and protosynthesis/weather boosts. I think the meta will survive for the following weeks without too many issues.

ps: I also didn't mention the vast amount of pokemons that can revenge kill WW as I focused mostly on the walling part, but 109 speed while good is far from great. There are mons that will outspeed it and do massive damage even under sun such as roaring moon (that benefits from sun), scarf mewoscarada and booster valiant. When it's not under sun there are a lot of pokemons that can outspeed and OKHO like dragapult, band meowscarada, Any iron valiant, Greninja if WW is chipped, Iron Moth etc. In short to me there is just too much couterplay to justify a ban at the moment.
 
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VigilanteV8 said:
I Think that we should address the elephant, or may I say the Velociraptor, in the room:

:Walking Wake: UR-->A+


Now it is obviously early to assess how good this Pokémon will end up to be in gen 9 OU as it was released just a couple days ago, nonetheless I think that in this case it is particularly easy as, even if you can run a lot and I mean A LOT of different sets, Those pretty much always boil down to the same thing: Massive Water/Draconic damage + fire coverage coupled with respectable speed.

That’s essentially what you are going to do with WW and with tens of games on high ladder I think I can already give an estimation of how good this mon is going to be in gen 9 OU although without very high precision. It could end up lower or even banned given some time, nobody can 100% predict the future and it really depends on how the meta will evolve. With that being said let’s address:



The Ban Hypothesis

To me the ban argument, as of today, is simply out of question: Water/Dragon with 125 special attack and signature water move that benefits from sun instead of being nerfed is super scary, I can understand that, but with practical experience I’ve come to an understanding that it’s not the end of the world.

For instance we already have 3 mons that I would define without too many issues as walls: Absorb Clodsire,Slowking and Pex. I can already hear the argument “but prothosynthesis + specs + tera dragon Meteor Just nukes them omg ban plz”. Again, I get the reasoning, but those scenarios can be applied to literally everything. I think that scarf Protosynthesis Great Tusk with tera literally has no counters, even the Bulkiest mons cannot switch to it nor the fastest mons revenge kill it. Does it make Great Tusk OUBL? Of course, it doesn’t. Theory is one thing, practice is another. If you really want to go with maximum power Draco (i.e specs + proto sun + tera) you will inevitably make yourself very vulnerable to other things. Already having to run sun is a very important commitment as you limit heavily your team building options while also boosting your opponent Great Tusk and other past mons. There are huge trade-offs running sun and/or tera dragon on Wake and these should not be ignored.

With the most common sets WW will be walled by Clodsire, Slowking, Pex and tera water Garganacl (imo the best tera garga can run because deals well with Gholdengo, the gen 9 BOSS. This tera is also very good to not get 6 oed by rain teams).

These mons were already seeing high usage (Slowking on the lower end but still super usable in OU) therefore one cannot make the argument: you are running absorb clod and tera water garg just for WW, it’s broken. These mons were already legit before WW, now they are just even better than before as they deal very well with what I think will go down as a very solid A+ tier OU Velociraptor.



Again, not saying that ban is out of question forever, as of today I think that this argument is just very hard to justify. We kept chi yu for months and bro got significantly higher power, now this is not an argument but what I’m trying to say is that WW is powerful, but not THAT powerful.

On a final note, I want to say that when home drops I really think that the chances of Wake going to ubers drops significantly as we will have a good set of great special walls, among all Galarian Slowking. Home should be coming in the next couple months, so banning Wake now to me wouldn’t make too much sense. 125 special and 109 speed can be managed even if coupled with great typing and protosynthesis/weather boosts. I think the meta will survive for the following weeks without too many issues.

ps: I also didn't mention the vast amount of pokemons that can revenge kill WW as I focused mostly on the walling part, but 109 speed while good is far from great. There are mons that will outspeed it and do massive damage even under sun such as roaring moon (that benefits from sun), scarf mewoscarada and booster valiant. When it's not under sun there are a lot of pokemons that can outspeed and OKHO like dragapult, band meowscarada, Any iron valiant, Greninja if WW is chipped, Iron Moth etc. In short to me there is just too much couterplay to justify a ban at the moment.
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In Response To This;
ps: I also didn't mention the vast amount of pokemons that can revenge kill WW as I focused mostly on the walling part, but 109 speed while good is far from great. There are mons that will outspeed it and do massive damage even under sun such as roaring moon (that benefits from sun), scarf mewoscarada and booster valiant. When it's not under sun there are a lot of pokemons that can outspeed and OKHO like dragapult, band meowscarada, Any iron valiant, Greninja if WW is chipped, Iron Moth etc. In short to me there is just too much couterplay to justify a ban at the moment.
Protosynthesis Speed On Timid Walking Wake Gives It 522 Speed, And That Means The Only Thing Outspeeding Unboosted/Unscarfed Is QD Speed Iron Valiant. As Well, You Can Save WW For The Late Game To Take Out Rest Of Their Team Once Valiant, Ninja, Moth, Etc, Are Taken Care Of. Also, Specs 252 EV, 29 IV, Hydro Steam Melts Valiant, Moth, And Such Into A Fine Paste, So They Can't Switch In Without You Either U-Turning Your Similarly fast Scarfer Out, Risking Valiants/Moths (Also Electric Terrain Teams Aren't That Good Right Now) Death, Or Getting Ninja Chunked Heavily.

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant in Sun: 430-507 (148.7 - 175.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 350-414 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 125-147 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

And Also:

What Timid Specs Greninja Can Do At Best, Assuming It Doesn't Pull A Suprise Tera Fire Or Dragon
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 292-345 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
In Which Case:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fire Walking Wake: 195-231 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Fracterra said:
In Response To This;
ps: I also didn't mention the vast amount of pokemons that can revenge kill WW as I focused mostly on the walling part, but 109 speed while good is far from great. There are mons that will outspeed it and do massive damage even under sun such as roaring moon (that benefits from sun), scarf mewoscarada and booster valiant. When it's not under sun there are a lot of pokemons that can outspeed and OKHO like dragapult, band meowscarada, Any iron valiant, Greninja if WW is chipped, Iron Moth etc. In short to me there is just too much couterplay to justify a ban at the moment.
Protosynthesis Speed On Timid Walking Wake Gives It 522 Speed, And That Means The Only Thing Outspeeding Unboosted/Unscarfed Is QD Speed Iron Valiant. As Well, You Can Save WW For The Late Game To Take Out Rest Of Their Team Once Valiant, Ninja, Moth, Etc, Are Taken Care Of. Also, Specs 252 EV, 29 IV, Hydro Steam Melts Valiant, Moth, And Such Into A Fine Paste, So They Can't Switch In Without You Either U-Turning Your Similarly fast Scarfer Out, Risking Valiants/Moths (Also Electric Terrain Teams Aren't That Good Right Now) Death, Or Getting Ninja Chunked Heavily.

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant in Sun: 430-507 (148.7 - 175.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 350-414 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 125-147 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

And Also:

What Timid Specs Greninja Can Do At Best, Assuming It Doesn't Pull A Suprise Tera Fire Or Dragon
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 292-345 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
In Which Case:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fire Walking Wake: 195-231 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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I know these mons are not going to switch to WW, i'm just saying that they can revenge kill it pretty effectively as the speed stat of 109 is good but not great. WW is still very scary, that's why I'm pretty confident that it will be A+ tier, but between the 3/4 walls and the vast amount of mons that outspeed and can KO it (even after rocks and some other forms of chipping) I think it is ok as of today in the meta.
 
Struggling to deal with Walking Wake, are we? Can I interest you in our lord and savior:

:clodsire: A- -> A

Clodsire was already improved with the Espathra and Chien-Pao bans, losing one of the only special attackers it couldn't beat and an offensive terror that bowled it over entirely. Its ability to stuff setup sweepers with Unaware makes it immensely valuable for stall teams. However, with a very powerful, immediately threatening Water type special attacker entering the fray in Walking Wake should spell trouble for it, right? Not exactly, as Water Absorb Clodsire turns a Hydro Steam that would normally wreck it into a source of healing. Not only that, even in the worst case scenario, it can survive even 2 Specs Draco Meteors from Wake 37.5% of the time in a pinch:

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 434-514 (93.5 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is assuming, too, that Sun is up and Wake is running Choice Specs. If Sun isn't up or Wake is running another item, the attacks will just bounce off, as Clod recovers off the damage. Not only that, Flamethrower is only a 3 hit KO:

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 201-237 (43.3 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This isn't just a niche counter to this specific Pokemon, either; this set completely stuffs Rotom-W, which is an excellent Pokemon in its own right, and it can block stray Water-type moves from other Pokemon, which is valuable as many great Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Garganacl, Volcarona, and Skeleridge are Water weak, giving them much needed defensive utility. Unaware is still a great option, but the fact that Clod is among the most reliable answers to this scary new threat along with providing defensive utility beyond that makes it a much better option in this meta.

Oh also:

:walking wake: New -> A+

The fact that something as bulky as Clodsire can fear this thing in sun is really emblematic of its power. Is it broken? I'm not sure yet, but it definitely is very strong at the least.
 
Forretress to C

  • Forretress has potential as a niche option on balance that cores well with some popular Bulky Waters in the tier, provide some form of hazard removal, and Spikes support.
  • Having Volt Switch, much like U-Turn on Corv, does alleviate a lot of the unfavorable Rapid Spin match-ups like Gholdengo, Dragapult, etc.
  • The overall trend of fast boosting sweepers (Booster Energy IV, Dragon Dancers, etc.) allow Forry to check a number of OU threats, and that trend doesn't seem like it'll change too much in the near future
  • Adding onto the previous point, the relative scarcity of usable defensive Steels gives Forry some measurable level of viability, especially with its utility
Set for reference:

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy / Overcoat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Volt Switch
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball / Body Press

While I'm not absolutely nominating Forretress, I think some extra discussion definitely is warranted.
 
This feels rude, but, personally, I don't think Forretress is worthy of a C rank.

:gs/forretress:

What Forretress brings to the table is its defensive typing, physical bulk, hazards, Rapid Spin, and Volt Switch. To me, Forrtress is just too passive for OU and frankly not good enough at its job. Forretress does nothing to deter opponents from setting up on it other than maybe Red Card sets. In terms of setting hazards, it is faced with some serious competition from the likes of Glimmora and Garchomp who are both able to reliably set up spikes while also being much more immediately threatening with their 130 attacking stats and are able to give physical attackers pause with their respective abilities. Once Forretress has set up its hazards and pivoted out it can really struggle to provide value if it can't spin, there are many games where its best use is that of a meat metal shield. Generally speaking, I think Forretress just kills your momentum and doesn't provide anything of note that can't already be fulfilled by another Pokemon.

I think the most directly comparable Pokemon in OU to Forretress right now is Iron Treads. Both are physically bulky Steel types with hazards and yadda yadda yadda. What differentiates the two are Forretress’ access to Spikes and T-Spikes and an ability in Sturdy which guarantees one layer of hazards or one spin and also doesn't require the extra item or team support that Quark Drive does. Iron Treads advantages come from its access to Knock Off and better stats across the board that allow it to actually threaten your opponent. Despite Forretress's sky high defense stat of 140, the actual difference in physical bulk between the two is negligible outside of type matchups.

:iron treads: 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 100-118 (26 - 30.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
:forretress: 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 90-106 (25.4 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

In most games, I believe Iron Treads will provide more value than Forretress, which isn't a great position for Forretress to be in as Iron Treads is itself almost completely overshadowed by Great Tusk. Overall, Forretress's niches are just already being filled in OU by the Iron Treads, Glimmoras, Garchomps, and especially the Great Tusks of the world. I personally cannot find a way to justify placing Forretress on a team right now, but I very well could be missing something or undervaluing something that the Bagworm Pokemon is bringing to the table.
 
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WilhelmTheOkay said:
This feels rude, but, personally, I don't think Forretress is worthy of a C rank.

:gs/forretress:

What Forretress brings to the table is its defensive typing, physical bulk, hazards, Rapid Spin, and Volt Switch. To me, Forrtress is just too passive for OU and frankly not good enough at its job. Forretress does nothing to deter opponents from setting up on it other than maybe Red Card sets. In terms of setting hazards, it is faced with some serious competition from the likes of Glimmora and Garchomp who are both able to reliably set up spikes while also being much more immediately threatening with their 130 attacking stats and are able to give physical attackers pause with their respective abilities. Once Forretress has set up its hazards and pivoted out it can really struggle to provide value if it can't spin, there are many games where its best use is that of a meat metal shield. Generally speaking, I think Forretress just kills your momentum and doesn't provide anything of note that can't already be fulfilled by another Pokemon.

I think the most directly comparable Pokemon in OU to Forretress right now is Iron Treads. Both are physically bulky Steel types with hazards and yadda yadda yadda. What differentiates the two are Forretress’ access to Spikes and T-Spikes and an ability in Sturdy which guarantees one layer of hazards or one spin and also doesn't require the extra item or team support that Quark Drive does. Iron Treads advantages come from its access to Knock Off and better stats across the board that allow it to actually threaten your opponent. Despite Forretress's sky high defense stat of 140, the actual difference in physical bulk between the two is negligible outside of type matchups.

:iron treads: 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 100-118 (26 - 30.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
:forretress: 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 90-106 (25.4 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

In most games, I believe Iron Treads will provide more value than Forretress, which isn't a great position for Forretress to be in as Iron Treads is itself almost completely overshadowed by Great Tusk. Overall, Forretress's niches are just already being filled in OU by the Iron Treads, Glimmoras, Garchomps, and especially the Great Tusks of the world. I personally cannot find a way to justify placing Forretress on a team right now, but I very well could be missing something or undervaluing something that the Bagworm Pokemon is bringing to the table.
Click to expand...
I mean, when your only competition is Iron Treads who is probably C+ tier garbage anyways, I don't think it's much competition at all. Forretress' actual competitor is Glimmora, who can at least pose an offensive threat and has more utility in Mortal Spin. IMO Forretress should just be D tier, since it kills momentum.
IMO it loses to quite a lot of the best spinners in the meta, and the best hazard setters
:great tusk: it just clicks knock off then spams Rapid Spin. Forretress cant do much back and you end up facing a +6 speed Tusk
:garganacl: salt cure
:glimmora: 252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 147-174 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery yeah you're not walling it
:garchomp: chomp spams rocks and you'll die to rough spin anyways, not to mention the occasional fire blast on chomp
:meowscarada: I mean, sure you get to set up rocks on it, but it's not like it's staying in
:greninja: hydro pump
:torkoal: 4x fire weakness against a special attacking fire type

I don't think I need to carry on, Forretress isn't very good as a hazard setter nor a spinner, and I don't think it is viable in OU
 
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:Breloom:-> A- / A
On paper, this mon should be easy for most teams to handle due to its STABs being resisted by most of the meta. In practice, it can be one of the most annoying Pokemon to face due to its access to busted moves like Spore and Loaded Dice Bullet Seed, which just shreds through resist. Just look at how much offensive Gholdengo takes from the move:

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 140-168 (44.4 - 53.3%) -- approx. 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Other resist like Skeledirge are also taking a fair amount of damage from the move. Grass in general is pretty good against many Pokemon like Ting-Lu and Dodonzo, so it'll get a fair few opportunities to fire it off. Spore is also OP AF and a headache for many Pokemon like the aforementioned Dirge or Dragonite to switch into & can make them more exploitable for other teammates like Iron Valiant. The move is a bit of a coin flip though, especially vs slower Pokemon since they could possibly just immediately wake up. Mach Punch is also valuable priority in this meta against some dangerous set-up sweepers like Roaring Moon and Kingambit. All in all, a pretty great mon and one I think should rise.

:Meowscarada: -> A- / A
I liked CB Protean sets on this mon before, but lately I've been preferring more other variants like Tera Dark Black Glasses w/ Overgrow due to its flexibility. Lays down Spikes pretty well and has a strong Sucker Punch to goob speedy threats like Floatzel, Dragapult, etc. Knock Off goobs most other mons, esp w/ Tera Dark and can make its Spikes more potent due to removing the opponent's Heavy Duty Boots. Overgrow isn't even a bad ability in a pinch, gives its Flower Trick a lot more oomph against mons like Great Tusk and Dondozo which are quite bulky. Has other sets too like the lead special set with Leaf Storm which can be trickY to spin against and the aforementioned CB set which is still quite good. Overall, a solid mon, esp in this meta now that Chien-Pao is gone.

:Armarouge::Indeedee::Polteageist: -> C+ / B-
Haven't used these mons personally but those Psyspam teams are scary af to fight against, esp since they get past standard forms of counterplay vs fast mons (aka Priority moves). Still, being match-up fish cheese, they are prone to failing quite often and can be shut down by stuff like Ice Spinner, so I could see a lower placement for these guys, but their place in the metagame is legitimate imo.

:Baxcalibur: -> A / A+
No cap, one of the scariest Pokemon to fight once it gets going. CB is strong AF while also packing good priority, but I think DD is the scarier set, esp if the opp has Tera in their back pocket since standard general counterplay vs phsyical sweepers (wisp) literally just does not work on this mon and instead, boost its power. Its Bulky af too so Priority kinda just bounces off it, though it can be a bit easier to revenge kill once its used Glaive Rush. Its high initial power also means that the unaware gang will have a bit of a harder time w/ it too, esp if its Tera Dragon. Overall, dangerous af.

:Azumarill: -> B+
Haven't used Belly Drum, but AV ain't too bad. While not a permanent answer, it does well enough vs many threats such as Hydreigon, Walking Wake, some Volcarona, and some Pult variants and can respond w/ powerful offensive in return, esp to its go-to counters like Clodsire and Amoonguss, which take quite a bit from Ice Spinner / Punch. Don't think it does too bad vs those Psyspam teams that have been spammed lately either. Still, it gets worn down pretty fast from chip, esp if facing Rocky Helmet Corviknight, so its current placement might not be too bad either, but with Wake coming out, I think its talents are in higher demand than they were previously.
 
Magcargo said:
:Breloom:-> A- / A
On paper, this mon should be easy for most teams to handle due to its STABs being resisted by most of the meta. In practice, it can be one of the most annoying Pokemon to face due to its access to busted moves like Spore and Loaded Dice Bullet Seed, which just shreds through resist. Just look at how much offensive Gholdengo takes from the move:

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 140-168 (44.4 - 53.3%) -- approx. 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Other resist like Skeledirge are also taking a fair amount of damage from the move. Grass in general is pretty good against many Pokemon like Ting-Lu and Dodonzo, so it'll get a fair few opportunities to fire it off. Spore is also OP AF and a headache for many Pokemon like the aforementioned Dirge or Dragonite to switch into & can make them more exploitable for other teammates like Iron Valiant. The move is a bit of a coin flip though, especially vs slower Pokemon since they could possibly just immediately wake up. Mach Punch is also valuable priority in this meta against some dangerous set-up sweepers like Roaring Moon and Kingambit. All in all, a pretty great mon and one I think should rise.
Click to expand...

I second this 100%. Just the fact that Breloom has spore limits the amount of Pokemon that can reliably deal with it by a ton, Sash variants especially so. Normally, you'd be content to bring in something like Volcarona or Skeledirge to ward this stupid shit off, but then you risk either being destroyed by Rock Tomb/Bulldoze or just being put out of commission by Spore. Even status-immunes Pokes like Gholdengo and Garg can't really take it on either, on account of being beaten 1v1 with the appropriate coverage or just by being blown apart by its STABs. At least A-
 
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