Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Avira]

The other day I was thinking how different the tier would be if the Tapus were in game, Primarina would be UU due to Fini, Lele would be everywhere to stop priority (especially Dnite and prevent Gambit from clicking SP like an idiot) and Tusk would be shaking on its boots. Koko would be an amazing ally to Threads and Crown. We were robbed tbh.

Primarina was actually ranked higher in viability than Tapu Fini in NatDex when Tera was legal (I think Tapu Fini was C- while Primarina was C+), and they're now tied with Tera banned. Primarina's much stronger offensive capabilities + Psychic Noise and Flip Turn are more important to the Gen 9 meta than Fini's higher bulk since Primarina's much higher Special Attack allows it to trade better against enemy Pokemon. Choice Scarf Tapu Fini is also 100% countered by Gholdengo, which is painful for Fini and reduces its number of good options, and most of its sets struggle hard against Gholdengo in general, meaning it wouldn't be a viable Defogger, which would be bad for its own longevity. Tapu Fini wouldn't be OU, but there might've been enough people using it that Primarina ended up not being OU either.

Tapu Lele would be borderline broken in Gen 9 due to Tera and likely would've been banned by now.

As for Tapu Koko, I could see it being obnoxious in enabling Electric Terrain teams even though Quark Drive teams stack a lot of weaknesses. They probably wouldn't be broken but pretty match-up fishy since things such as Dondozo will have their viability gutted.

Tapu Bulu would actually be good since Rillaboom is a non-factor now, and Bulu matches up well into Ting-Lu, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Garganacl, Landorus-Therian, and Samurott-Hisui. A durable Ting-Lu check is always nice.

 

[Moyashi]

The other day I was thinking how different the tier would be if the Tapus were in game, Primarina would be UU due to Fini, Lele would be everywhere to stop priority (especially Dnite and prevent Gambit from clicking SP like an idiot) and Tusk would be shaking on its boots. Koko would be an amazing ally to Threads and Crown. We were robbed tbh.

Fini was actually very mediocre during the natdex Tera era and it wouldn't be any different here. It's much too passive and Its lack of reliable recovery and the age old issue that it's always had of being a Knock Off magnet which leaves it without even Leftovers would be worse this gen than ever. It also lacks the strength to strike back sufficiently when switching in.

Amusingly I think aside from obvious Lele/Koko being as good as ever, Bulu would have a real use case again due to it having a good match up into quite a lot of the tier (and since Rilla sucks now the lack of grassy glide is not an issue).

Slightly off topic or maybe it could be considered on topic, but does anyone else feel like Gen 9 has felt... long? I dunno if it's just burnout but with no sign of any gen10 stuff in the semi-near future (aka not this year or next summer either), it seems like Gen9 will be lasting a bit longer than most recent "modern" gens. I dunno anyone else feel this way?

 

[Magcargo]

Slightly off topic or maybe it could be considered on topic, but does anyone else feel like Gen 9 has felt... long? I dunno if it's just burnout but with no sign of any gen10 stuff in the semi-near future (aka not this year or next summer either), it seems like Gen9 will be lasting a bit longer than most recent "modern" gens. I dunno anyone else feel this way?

Yeah, gen 9 has lasted pretty long - and it will be a long while before we get to gen 10. Last time I felt this way was the wait between ORAS and SM where there was nothing for a good two years, and we will likely have to wait another year for the next generation compared to ORAS / SM since Legends ZA is not a mainline game.

If nothing else, Tera at least has made the metagame feel a bit more fresh compared to ORAS when that was current since there is a lot more random shit you can mess around with, whether it be some low tier shitter (Flamigo, Gzap, Inteleon, or Hisuian-Lilligant for example) or grants a bit more customization to existing high tier options (I had some fun running Tera Fire Flamethrower over Draco / Darts on Wisp Hex Pult, which is usually a pretty static set). I have been going back to a few older gens and while Tera does add a great deal of variance, I also like it because it gives you more leeway to play around certain threats without entirely scrapping your team composition. Generally, I feel like this is the generation where many players have gotten a lot more creative across the board, and we see a lot more wacky sets pop up (DD Dragon Tail like we've seen on Baxcalibur / Dragonite would have been unheard of in a prior generation) and we have seen many low tiers that had some passing potential either find niches or thrive in OU like Pecharunt, Araquanid, Latios, Arcanine-Hisui, Okidogi, and more. I think hazards have a bit too strong of a chokehold on the metagame, but tbh that is every gen and even then, dealing with it this gen is easier thanks to Boots compared to non-boots generations like Gen 4 / 5 (IMO anyways).

 

[MC Squared]

Yeah, gen 9 has lasted pretty long - and it will be a long while before we get to gen 10. Last time I felt this way was the wait between ORAS and SM where there was nothing for a good two years, and we will likely have to wait another year for the next generation compared to ORAS / SM since Legends ZA is not a mainline game.

If nothing else, Tera at least has made the metagame feel a bit more fresh compared to ORAS when that was current since there is a lot more random shit you can mess around with, whether it be some low tier shitter (Flamigo, Gzap, Inteleon, or Hisuian-Lilligant for example) or grants a bit more customization to existing high tier options (I had some fun running Tera Fire Flamethrower over Draco / Darts on Wisp Hex Pult, which is usually a pretty static set). I have been going back to a few older gens and while Tera does add a great deal of variance, I also like it because it gives you more leeway to play around certain threats without entirely scrapping your team composition. Generally, I feel like this is the generation where many players have gotten a lot more creative across the board, and we see a lot more wacky sets pop up (DD Dragon Tail like we've seen on Baxcalibur / Dragonite would have been unheard of in a prior generation) and we have seen many low tiers that had some passing potential either find niches or thrive in OU like Pecharunt, Araquanid, Latios, Arcanine-Hisui, Okidogi, and more. I think hazards have a bit too strong of a chokehold on the metagame, but tbh that is every gen and even then, dealing with it this gen is easier thanks to Boots compared to non-boots generations like Gen 4 / 5 (IMO anyways).

Gen 9 will be a 4 year gen which we haven't had since Gen 4

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

I have seen a lot of people complain about ting lu recently? Do y’all think it should be banned?

 

[Eeveeto]

I have seen a lot of people complain about ting lu recently? Do y’all think it should be banned?

No. Not broken at all, and not S rank either in my world. Good for the meta despite being a hazards setter.

 

[pixelpenguin]

Ting Lu really only has one set and it's nothing new at this point. It's very good at its job but it has very exploitable weaknesses. While it can be annoying in how much progress it forces, no good team will just let it set hazards and Ruination everything. Great mon but any complaints about it being broken seem like they come from people who are just letting it fuck around for free.

Speaking of Spikes setters...



This mon might be kinda good actually. I've been running the combination of Spikes, Knock, Leech Seed, and Body Press, and it's been great. Leech Seed is a really annoying move to switch into when Ghold fears getting knocked and the only Grass in Ogerpon doesn't really get to do anything upon switch in. Even on bad matchups, your switch gets some nice chip healing. Clefable is supremely annoying for this but at least you can Spike on it switching in. Which brings up its good matchup into Great Tusk and Cinderace. With Leech Seed and Bulletproof, it can afford to just sit there Spiking as they chip themselves with Rocky Helmet. Rapid Spin does remove Leech Seed but the chip adds up if they keep spinning into your Helmet. Paired with Mola this shit can feel immortal since it comes in on Ogerpon trying to block Flip Turn and it gets healed back to full from Wish (which is why I've opted to run a more aggressive Chesnaught over Synthesis). It's also lovely to have against SD Scor because they get this

0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 61-72 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO

while you get Leech to keep them from healing or free Spikes.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Admittedly I'm not a great player, but I really disagree with the "don't unban mons if they're not necessary for the tier" doctrine. If a pokemon is not broken we shouldn't bother arguing why it has a "positive impact on the metagame since we already have so many threats" and just unban it anyway.

I believe this approach hampers SV OU from fostering innovation and creativity and overall causes it to bleed market share to VGC and other metagames as pokemon battles become shorter over time. I keep being reminded of the volcarona suspect test whenever I see ban discussions popping up over Kyurem and friends since it seems to follow the same pattern of setup move + defensive tera + possibly tera blast

Anyway my boy corv is the goat, also use hisuian avalugg

 

[Cyber-DJ]

Ting Lu really only has one set and it's nothing new at this point. It's very good at its job but it has very exploitable weaknesses. While it can be annoying in how much progress it forces, no good team will just let it set hazards and Ruination everything. Great mon but any complaints about it being broken seem like they come from people who are just letting it fuck around for free.

Speaking of Spikes setters...



This mon might be kinda good actually. I've been running the combination of Spikes, Knock, Leech Seed, and Body Press, and it's been great. Leech Seed is a really annoying move to switch into when Ghold fears getting knocked and the only Grass in Ogerpon doesn't really get to do anything upon switch in. Even on bad matchups, your switch gets some nice chip healing. Clefable is supremely annoying for this but at least you can Spike on it switching in. Which brings up its good matchup into Great Tusk and Cinderace. With Leech Seed and Bulletproof, it can afford to just sit there Spiking as they chip themselves with Rocky Helmet. Rapid Spin does remove Leech Seed but the chip adds up if they keep spinning into your Helmet. Paired with Mola this shit can feel immortal since it comes in on Ogerpon trying to block Flip Turn and it gets healed back to full from Wish (which is why I've opted to run a more aggressive Chesnaught over Synthesis). It's also lovely to have against SD Scor because they get this

0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 61-72 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO

while you get Leech to keep them from healing or free Spikes.

Happen to have that Chesnaught team on standby perchance? This sounds like some pretty neat tech

 

[Protalithic]

https://pokepast.es/b88fa459f6a18fe9



I wanna get Beartic to #1 on the ladder. Current peak was at 44 (1910 elo), so I wanna see if anyone wants to try the team as it is or has any suggestions to put it over the edge (or if you think I just need to grind it a bit more). I’ll break down what everyone does.



Pelipper @ Damp Rock

Ability: Drizzle

Tera Type: Steel

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA

Relaxed Nature

IVs: 0 Spe

- Surf

- Hurricane

- U-turn

- Ice Beam



Obviously sets rain and pivots. Full phys def. In a pinch can be used to check both Dragonite and Zamazenta. Against Samu you just have to accept that a spike is going up. Lead Pel and u turn out to break a potential sash and then bring in whatever attacker to kill/hit the opposing team.



Hatterene @ Eject Button

Ability: Magic Bounce

Tera Type: Ghost

EVs: 252 Def / 128 SpA / 128 SpD

Bold Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Draining Kiss

- Psychic Noise

- Healing Wish

- Psyshock



Eject pack to get in one of the four attackers once rain is up while also blocking all potential hazards aside from ceaseless (and stone axe but who uses kleavor). The hazard prevention, specifically rocks, is very important because Pel, Zapdos and Beartic are all rocks weak and are not wearing boots. Luckily the combo of this and the general pressure provided by the four attackers is usually enough to keep rocks off all game. As stated above, against Samu, a spike is going up. There’s nothing to be done about it. You can usually work around it. Don’t waste the eject pack on ceaseless, just u turn out with Pel.



Barraskewda @ Mystic Water

Ability: Swift Swim

Tera Type: Water

EVs: 252 Atk / 28 Def / 228 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Liquidation

- Poison Jab

- Close Combat

- Flip Turn



Primary late game sweeper and also outspeeds and KO’s every booster mon. Sometimes even with just a flip turn. Liquidate while you can get KO’s and if not just flip turn out. When your dealing with Wogerpon, as you often will be, I’ve found that using mystic water has them often thinking you are choiced, so you can just poison jab them in the face because they’d rather set up or click cudgel than click power whip anyway. Once it’s down to like 15 health, Skewda is free to terrorize everything. There are other obstacles besides Wogerpon, and those are dealt with by the other three attackers.



Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask

Ability: Water Absorb

Tera Type: Water

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Ivy Cudgel

- Power Whip

- Play Rough

- Encore



The nightmare of all Alomalola, who would otherwise terrorize this team. Can switch in forever on Alo and put a massive dent in with power whip. Cudgel hits like a truck in rain, in addition to the high crit chance. Play rough hits dragons like Pult, Bolt and Kyurem. Encore for late game Gambit, Bolt or anyone else who is trying to set up. Power whip is also useful for all the defensive mons that Tera water against this team. A very common interaction will be glowking Tera water in front of Wogerpon. Predict where you like.



Zapdos @ Assault Vest

Ability: Static

Tera Type: Electric

EVs: 252 SpA / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

Timid Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Volt Switch

- Hurricane

- Thunder

- Weather Ball



Another Alomalola check and the special attacker of the team. Inevitably against this team, some opposing defensive mon is going to Tera water, usually glowking, garg, ting Lu or Lando. 100% accurate thunders from Zap handle this nicely, and can even Tera electric for some extra juice on this against the Tera water gargs and glowkings. Can also be useful to check zamazenta. AV gives it some extra special bulk so it’s a great switch in to gholdengo or other special attackers. Have to be careful around ting Lu and Raging bolt. Weather ball does a solid chunk to ting Lu, but hazards absolutely cannot go up for this squad, so make sure hat is alive.



Beartic @ Loaded Dice

Ability: Swift Swim

Tera Type: Ground

EVs: 252 Atk / 28 Def / 228 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Icicle Spear

- Close Combat

- Earthquake

- Substitute



My pride and joy. The Bear handles some of the biggest obstacles to rain teams, dragons. A very common matchup against this team will be lead Kyurem against our lead pelipper. Normally, a specs freeze dry would be devastating. Have no fear, the Bear is here. The Bear will take only 30 something percent while immediately outspeeding and threatening Kyurem with Close Combat or at least 4 hits from icicle spear. This is also very useful against sub protect variants as you can break the sub and do some damage. Another common matchup is raging bolt against lead pellipper. This is handled pretty easily with a simple switch in to hat, eject pack out to the Bear who outspeeds and OHKO’s raging bolt from full with icicle spear. Can also scout Tera with sub. Can also Tera ground yourself so your immune to Thunderclap or want to set up a sub on an incoming thunderbolt. If you force Tera on the raging bolt, AV Zapdos now easily deals with it. The EVs are such that it outspeeds all non scarfers or booster mons aside from Zama, Pult, and occasionally Deoxys. Zama you’re never staying in on anyway. Same with Deoxys. Outspeeding Pult could be useful sometimes, but it isn’t worth the decrease in damage output generally. As it is, the Adamant bear can OHKO tusk with spear on five hits and can KO balloon gold with EQ after it switches in on an icicle spear. Also you can just bluff that your faster, the Pult willl often switch out and never know. Substitute is also useful for outplaying late game Gambit or in combo with Wogerpon encore.



This is the highest I’ve ever been on the OU ladder and I did it with a team I created and with a mon I hold dear so I am very proud. Let me know your guys thoughts.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

https://pokepast.es/b88fa459f6a18fe9



I wanna get Beartic to #1 on the ladder. Current peak was at 44 (1910 elo), so I wanna see if anyone wants to try the team as it is or has any suggestions to put it over the edge (or if you think I just need to grind it a bit more). I’ll break down what everyone does.



Pelipper @ Damp Rock

Ability: Drizzle

Tera Type: Steel

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA

Relaxed Nature

IVs: 0 Spe

- Surf

- Hurricane

- U-turn

- Ice Beam



Obviously sets rain and pivots. Full phys def. In a pinch can be used to check both Dragonite and Zamazenta. Against Samu you just have to accept that a spike is going up. Lead Pel and u turn out to break a potential sash and then bring in whatever attacker to kill/hit the opposing team.



Hatterene @ Eject Button

Ability: Magic Bounce

Tera Type: Ghost

EVs: 252 Def / 128 SpA / 128 SpD

Bold Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Draining Kiss

- Psychic Noise

- Healing Wish

- Psyshock



Eject pack to get in one of the four attackers once rain is up while also blocking all potential hazards aside from ceaseless (and stone axe but who uses kleavor). The hazard prevention, specifically rocks, is very important because Pel, Zapdos and Beartic are all rocks weak and are not wearing boots. Luckily the combo of this and the general pressure provided by the four attackers is usually enough to keep rocks off all game. As stated above, against Samu, a spike is going up. There’s nothing to be done about it. You can usually work around it. Don’t waste the eject pack on ceaseless, just u turn out with Pel.



Barraskewda @ Mystic Water

Ability: Swift Swim

Tera Type: Water

EVs: 252 Atk / 28 Def / 228 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Liquidation

- Poison Jab

- Close Combat

- Flip Turn



Primary late game sweeper and also outspeeds and KO’s every booster mon. Sometimes even with just a flip turn. Liquidate while you can get KO’s and if not just flip turn out. When your dealing with Wogerpon, as you often will be, I’ve found that using mystic water has them often thinking you are choiced, so you can just poison jab them in the face because they’d rather set up or click cudgel than click power whip anyway. Once it’s down to like 15 health, Skewda is free to terrorize everything. There are other obstacles besides Wogerpon, and those are dealt with by the other three attackers.



Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask

Ability: Water Absorb

Tera Type: Water

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Ivy Cudgel

- Power Whip

- Play Rough

- Encore



The nightmare of all Alomalola, who would otherwise terrorize this team. Can switch in forever on Alo and put a massive dent in with power whip. Cudgel hits like a truck in rain, in addition to the high crit chance. Play rough hits dragons like Pult, Bolt and Kyurem. Encore for late game Gambit, Bolt or anyone else who is trying to set up. Power whip is also useful for all the defensive mons that Tera water against this team. A very common interaction will be glowking Tera water in front of Wogerpon. Predict where you like.



Zapdos @ Assault Vest

Ability: Static

Tera Type: Electric

EVs: 252 SpA / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

Timid Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Volt Switch

- Hurricane

- Thunder

- Weather Ball



Another Alomalola check and the special attacker of the team. Inevitably against this team, some opposing defensive mon is going to Tera water, usually glowking, garg, ting Lu or Lando. 100% accurate thunders from Zap handle this nicely, and can even Tera electric for some extra juice on this against the Tera water gargs and glowkings. Can also be useful to check zamazenta. AV gives it some extra special bulk so it’s a great switch in to gholdengo or other special attackers. Have to be careful around ting Lu and Raging bolt. Weather ball does a solid chunk to ting Lu, but hazards absolutely cannot go up for this squad, so make sure hat is alive.



Beartic @ Loaded Dice

Ability: Swift Swim

Tera Type: Ground

EVs: 252 Atk / 28 Def / 228 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Icicle Spear

- Close Combat

- Earthquake

- Substitute



My pride and joy. The Bear handles some of the biggest obstacles to rain teams, dragons. A very common matchup against this team will be lead Kyurem against our lead pelipper. Normally, a specs freeze dry would be devastating. Have no fear, the Bear is here. The Bear will take only 30 something percent while immediately outspeeding and threatening Kyurem with Close Combat or at least 4 hits from icicle spear. This is also very useful against sub protect variants as you can break the sub and do some damage. Another common matchup is raging bolt against lead pellipper. This is handled pretty easily with a simple switch in to hat, eject pack out to the Bear who outspeeds and OHKO’s raging bolt from full with icicle spear. Can also scout Tera with sub. Can also Tera ground yourself so your immune to Thunderclap or want to set up a sub on an incoming thunderbolt. If you force Tera on the raging bolt, AV Zapdos now easily deals with it. The EVs are such that it outspeeds all non scarfers or booster mons aside from Zama, Pult, and occasionally Deoxys. Zama you’re never staying in on anyway. Same with Deoxys. Outspeeding Pult could be useful sometimes, but it isn’t worth the decrease in damage output generally. As it is, the Adamant bear can OHKO tusk with spear on five hits and can KO balloon gold with EQ after it switches in on an icicle spear. Also you can just bluff that your faster, the Pult willl often switch out and never know. Substitute is also useful for outplaying late game Gambit or in combo with Wogerpon encore.



This is the highest I’ve ever been on the OU ladder and I did it with a team I created and with a mon I hold dear so I am very proud. Let me know your guys thoughts.

idk not outspeeding Pult is really annoying since that thing can use defensive tera to take a move and burn you. If you were to use heat Beartic I'd try swords dance with tera water and a jolly nature. You also outspeed zama, scarf hamurott, +1 tusk, +spe dragonite and blaziken after setup, some scarf dengo etc

 

[BobbyHill]

I know it’s not getting banned, so this is screaming into the void. But since I just lost another game to a Kyurem freeze: it is a damn stain on this already troubled gen that that Mon is still in the tier.

 

[toshimelonhead]

https://pokepast.es/b88fa459f6a18fe9

I'd recommend turning this into an RMT and posting it there. Heads up for when you do: they require a little more description than you have in some places and some of the sets that got copied in your current post have whitespace in between them that makes it clunky and hard to read. Including sprites as well also makes it easier to follow using the syntax :sv/pokemon: . The foundation is definitely there for a good thread, though.

(Example output for sv/beartic below)

 

[Moyashi]

Ting Lu really only has one set and it's nothing new at this point.

This is just untrue. Sets range from

Standard Spdef Spikes (sometimes rocks)
Rocky Helmet sets
Resttalk sets
Red card sets

And the mon sees usage on a wide range of teams.

Admittedly I'm not a great player, but I really disagree with the "don't unban mons if they're not necessary for the tier" doctrine. If a pokemon is not broken we shouldn't bother arguing why it has a "positive impact on the metagame since we already have so many threats" and just unban it anyway.

I believe this approach hampers SV OU from fostering innovation and creativity and overall causes it to bleed market share to VGC and other metagames as pokemon battles become shorter over time. I keep being reminded of the volcarona suspect test whenever I see ban discussions popping up over Kyurem and friends since it seems to follow the same pattern of setup move + defensive tera + possibly tera blast

Anyway my boy corv is the goat, also use hisuian avalugg

There's more to a pokemon being banworthy than just being traditionally broken. There's also whether or not the Pokemon's impact is overall healthy and positive to the tier, which especially relevant this tier when we have so many things to account for already. Pokemon like the retested Palafin a while ago are a great example of this. It could be argued it wasn't super broken outright, but the way it warped the tier around it was very unhealthy and especially unneeded when we already had (and continue to have) so many things to prep for already.

What does your second paragraph even mean?? What does "bleed market share to VGC" mean? And anyways, the approach currently used is doing fine and we still see innovation and creativity being fostered. Gweezing is on track to reach OU through usage next month (should trends continue) and we constantly see little tweaks to Pokemon and how they're getting used.

 

[Magcargo]

I have seen a lot of people complain about ting lu recently? Do y’all think it should be banned?

Its broken (literally has better bulk than primal Groudon on both sides while being able to hold leftovers) but at the same time, if it was banned, we'd need to ban like, 5-6 other mons. Players clown on Iron Moth / Raging Bolt rn, but that's literally only because Ting-Lu is able to keep them in check - these mons are Ubers in a format without it. I'd also frankly much rather deal with Ting-Lu than the abundance of cheese that would get better with it gone like Latias, Polteageist, etc. I think its better we keep it in the format.

 

[Avira]

Its broken (literally has better bulk than primal Groudon on both sides while being able to hold leftovers) but at the same time, if it was banned, we'd need to ban like, 5-6 other mons. Players clown on Iron Moth / Raging Bolt rn, but that's literally only because Ting-Lu is able to keep them in check - these mons are Ubers in a format without it. I'd also frankly much rather deal with Ting-Lu than the abundance of cheese that would get better with it gone like Latias, Polteageist, etc. I think its better we keep it in the format.

If Ting-Lu didn't have better bulk than Primal Groudon, something would be very wrong since Primal Groudon was designed as mainly an offensive Pokemon. As something designed as a top defensive/support mon with 570 BST, it makes sense for Ting-Lu to be bulkier on both sides. Iron Moth is stopped by a fair amount of defensive cores or handled by soft checks and revenge killers even without Ting-Lu. Now as for Raging Bolt, I admit it'd probably be borderline broken if Ting-Lu weren't in the tier as it'd be an incredibly centralizing threat, but I agree that the meta would be worse without Ting-Lu in the tier though given how many mons it soft-checks, including the cheese sweepers you dislike.

I think it’s time we seriously discuss implementing some form of Item Clause in Gen 9 OU — or at the very least, restricting Heavy-Duty Boots to one user per team.

Let’s be honest: HDB is still one of the single most influential items in the entire tier, arguably more than anything besides Knock Off. The way it’s used now, especially in Gen 9’s power-heavy meta, has gone from a defensive tool to something that completely shapes how teams are built — often in repetitive and uncreative ways.

Right now, we’re seeing 2–3 Boots users on the majority of serious teams, and it’s not hard to understand why:

• Hazards are everywhere — with powerful setters like Glimmora, Ting-Lu, Tusk, and Samurott-H.
• Many top-tier threats like Iron Valiant, Dragapult, Kingambit, Cinderace all want HDB — even over offensive items — just to stay functional in the face of relentless hazard pressure.
• Defensive cores (e.g., Corviknight, Toxapex, Clodsire, Garganacl) almost require HDB just to stay consistent over a game.

But here’s the problem: the item is so effective at neutralizing hazard pressure that it negates a massive part of the metagame — hazards are supposed to be one of the defining mechanics of Gen 9 OU. Layering Spikes, punishing switches, controlling tempo — that all takes a back seat when half your opponent’s team is floating above the problem with HDB.

It kills strategic depth:

• Hazards become optional rather than a real threat.
• Knock Off becomes mandatory, just to have some kind of item punishment.
• Role compression gets even worse, with fewer viable item choices because HDB is a safety net for almost everything.

We’re not asking for a ban — HDB has a place in the tier, and it’s good for certain styles. But a soft Item Clause (1 per team) would:

• Encourage more thoughtful item diversity (e.g., Covert Cloak, Rocky Helmet, AV, Booster Energy).
• Give hazard stacking teams more identity and reward.
• Restore balance between offensive and defensive item usage.
• Force harder choices in teambuilding.

Even the VGC format, which is much faster-paced, understands the value of item diversity and strategic tension. With how much stall, Zapdos, Great Tusk, and other HDB-dependent mons shape the tier, limiting this item might actually open the door for more varied and creative play, not less.

This isn’t about nerfing playstyles — it’s about reining in the dominance of an item that erases one of the most fundamental checks in the game.

Let’s discuss on this!

Hazards are not optional rather than a real threat as plenty of teams still use mons that don't run boots given you yourself are saying that many teams are only running 2-3 HDB users.

Knock Off is not mandatory as there is an opportunity cost to using HDB in that if your team has good hazard control, using HDB can actually compromise your bulk since Leftovers could mean the difference between tanking a hit when you use a recovery move or not tanking it.

On the contrary, HDB can make role compression easier since Pokemon that are extremely weak to hazards can use it to mitigate their hazards weakness, which allows for more freedom in building.

VGC is an unbalanced train wreck with nonsensical arbitrary rules. There is no serious merit to using Item Clause now or in previous generations of OU. Stall is the worst playstyle in the meta and doesn't need a nerf. Booster Energy is already a common item on many teams, and you won't have more people using it just 'cause HDB is no longer available (In fact, there'd be fewer users 'cause of Item Clause).

It sounds like you just don't have much patience if you think HDB needs restricting as it's the main reason the meta is even playable with how limited hazard removal is in SV OU with the gutting of Defog distribution and Gholdengo's presence in OU. You just want your pet playstyle, hyper offense, to be the dominant playing style in urging for a HDB restriction.

 

[FayaWizard]

I think it’s time we seriously discuss implementing some form of Item Clause in Gen 9 OU — or at the very least, restricting Heavy-Duty Boots to one user per team.

Let's not. Item Clause has been shut down time and again when brought up, and for very good reason: because its nothing but a net negative to the tier.

Hazard stacking is pretty strong right now: the decimation of Defog distribution, the prominence of Ghost-types like Gholdengo and Pecharunt, and the powerful hazard setters like Ting-Lu, Gliscor, Hisuian Samurott, etc, all combine to make hazard stacking prevalent across almost all playstyles, from Stall to Hyper Offense. While hazard removal options like Galarian Weezing are rising, and Great Tusk is still as prominent as ever, they each have their own flaws which limits their ability to remove hazards.

If Heavy-Duty Boots were to be removed from the tier, almost every single defensive or bulky playstyle suffers. Ironically, while you claim that Heavy-Duty Boots kills "strategic depth" and forces "repetitive and uncreative" team building, a Heavy-Duty Boots restriction would do far more damage to these playstyles, as they would all be forced into heavy hazard removal compositions, that likely will still struggle in the tier. Meanwhile, Offense teams will run rampant, able to force loads of chip damage on teams now unable to rely on Heavy-Duty Boots to manage hazards, quickly wearing down defensive walls.

We would likely see a total overhaul of the tier, with several bans to try and limit the sudden dominance of hazards, and it would irrecoverably damage the relative state of balance the council and playerbase has worked so hard all generation to achieve.

Also, you point to VGC as an example of how item clause works, as if it's not a fundamentally different format in so many ways, that comparing it to OU is completely ridiculous. And claiming stall shapes this tier to a large degree is just laughable. A playstyle so prominent that they're all sitting at B rank on the VR.

Edit: Just in case it wasn't made clear before, we do not allow AI generated posts on this forum. You are free to voice your thoughts about the metagame, but they must be your own words, and not those of ChatGPT.

 

[Prowlermon]

I was thinking about the mimikyu, and I think Abt this type set

Mimikyu @ Red Card
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe // EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance / Drain Punch
- Will-O-Wisp

Mmkyu have a little good speed, his typing is good offensively, the OU have so many boostermon and Zama, mmkyu could use the preserved disguise together with red card to burn the opponent's booster energy or +1 defense of zamazenta, and some physical attacker will not end up attacking mmkyu even outside the disguise or without a red card, as you could get burned by the wisp which you wouldn't want to take (It's even better for mmkyu to burn them because his physdef isn't as good as other mons in the tier)

SD may be to hit harder with your dual stab, since most of the tier wouldn't want to take at least some attack from mmkyu (unless you can call yourself dozo or maybe tres if you burn tera, but I can tell you that it won't do much damage to the bird with sclaw and it wouldn't be worth it, because you would lose your good typing for this whole tier, unless you don't want to die for scizor or crown in no way)

This mimikyu is not meant to be totally offensive, it is also for support, but if you want to cause more damage and support, use the set with Max atk, and preferably with Sd, now a more bulky mmkyu, I suggest you use DPunch more, as it handles gambit and others much better, like threads and garg, etc

(I'll probably end up forgetting a thing or two, but maybe in the future I'll update or change it and it'll be much more elaborate than this.)

 

[658Greninja]

Its broken (literally has better bulk than primal Groudon on both sides while being able to hold leftovers) but at the same time, if it was banned, we'd need to ban like, 5-6 other mons. Players clown on Iron Moth / Raging Bolt rn, but that's literally only because Ting-Lu is able to keep them in check - these mons are Ubers in a format without it. I'd also frankly much rather deal with Ting-Lu than the abundance of cheese that would get better with it gone like Latias, Polteageist, etc. I think its better we keep it in the format.

Even without Ting-Lu I don’t think Moth is in any way broken. Anything with decent enough special bulk like Gking, Garg, SpD Gliscor, AV Mola, or Molt (can tank a Sludge Wave and Roar it out) is fine enough vs Moth. Dnite’s another good check. Moth is also super rocks weak if it’s not running Boots which is 90% of them.

Even neutral targets like Lando, Zama, or Pecha don’t take much from an unboosted Fiery Dance and can do something back. (Lando EQs, Zama Roars it out, Pecha Parting Shots). I’ve seen this do less than 80% to Tinkaton. It’s solid when it gets a Fiery Dance boost, but hazard weak garbage without it.

Moth is not a mon I think about when building, because 90% of the time my team is prepackaged with answers. It feels like Kyurem but without the power to mitigate the huge hazard weakness.

 

[BikDutkus]

Even without Ting-Lu I don’t think Moth is in any way broken. Anything with decent enough special bulk like Gking, Garg, SpD Gliscor, AV Mola, or Molt (can tank a Sludge Wave and Roar it out) is fine enough vs Moth. Dnite’s another good check. Moth is also super rocks weak if it’s not running Boots which is 90% of them.

Even neutral targets like Lando, Zama, or Pecha don’t take much from an unboosted Fiery Dance and can do something back. (Lando EQs, Zama Roars it out, Pecha Parting Shots). I’ve seen this do less than 80% to Tinkaton. It’s solid when it gets a Fiery Dance boost, but hazard weak garbage without it.

Moth is not a mon I think about when building, because 90% of the time my team is prepackaged with answers. It feels like Kyurem but without the power to mitigate the huge hazard weakness.

I can't agree with the moth hate. Booster Speed is stinky doodoo because non weather HO teams are bad on ladder (too much boots spam fat junk), but specs and Special-Attack-boosting are very, very strong wall breakers, especially on Sticky Webs teams. If you hit a fiery dance boost on the switch-in you just win on the spot, 2hko-ing ting, gking, dnite. I've clicked mono fire vs a gking, lu, garg team and won. If they have to tera, then your paired wins. It's pretty fun. (Dont think it's broken though)

There aren't switch-ins to this.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD : 348-410 (109.7 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin : 460-544 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Modest goes 319 speed.

Also +1 to the Heavy-Duty Boots discussion. I think that item in tandem with the skill-less slow pivot gameplay is kind of a pox on the tier right now. Please stop trying to remove breakers or ban ting lu and put gking in prison.


Team for clickin' https://pokepast.es/00a15cd61ba2e780
ignore noob opp switching in lando: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2378110458
just clicking fiery dance off the rip vs and
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2379115102
tera water and . lives close combat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2379185090
...someone stole this account after i posted this

I want to call out as a total boss as a support for HO teams. You smoke the usual and scrubs. Then as long as they aren't B**ts darkrai or zama, you win!

lastly, once again, Ability Shield Gholdengo blanks all the Gweezing nubs.

 

[PastaMechKaku]

I think there's merit for Boots Moth as many offensive teams want it as Toxic Spikes absorption guy that still hits relatively hard and fast, so why not shelve the gambling aspect of Booster Speed and lean into Moth's defensive profile as a pivot?


Iron Moth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass/ Water / Ghost
EVs: 96 Def / 160 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- U-turn
- Toxic / Substitute

Similar to the Ogerpons, it has a good enough speed tier to hit what it needs to and with U-turn, can back out of bad match-ups like Glowking or Blissey instead of crossing your fingers for Fiery Dance procs. I've been running Toxic for my set because it trolls the hell out of common switch-ins such as Ting-Lu or Dragonite, but Substitute can be used if you want to play around stuff like Sucker Punch or Thunderclap. The EVs are in order to narrowly escape an OHKO from Gambit's Sucker Punch with 5 fallen allies while still having the power to pick up kills on most Ghold's and Gambits. The tera type is up in the air, but anything that flips its Ground/Water weakness or lets it scam stuff like Dnite is worth considering. All in all, it felt pretty nice to use.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I was thinking about the mimikyu, and I think Abt this type set

Mimikyu @ Red Card
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe // EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance / Drain Punch
- Will-O-Wisp

Explanation if you don't want to go back to the original post

Mmkyu have a little good speed, his typing is good offensively, the OU have so many boostermon and Zama, mmkyu could use the preserved disguise together with red card to burn the opponent's booster energy or +1 defense of zamazenta, and some physical attacker will not end up attacking mmkyu even outside the disguise or without a red card, as you could get burned by the wisp which you wouldn't want to take (It's even better for mmkyu to burn them because his physdef isn't as good as other mons in the tier)

SD may be to hit harder with your dual stab, since most of the tier wouldn't want to take at least some attack from mmkyu (unless you can call yourself dozo or maybe tres if you burn tera, but I can tell you that it won't do much damage to the bird with sclaw and it wouldn't be worth it, because you would lose your good typing for this whole tier, unless you don't want to die for scizor or crown in no way)

This mimikyu is not meant to be totally offensive, it is also for support, but if you want to cause more damage and support, use the set with Max atk, and preferably with Sd, now a more bulky mmkyu, I suggest you use DPunch more, as it handles gambit and others much better, like threads and garg, etc

(I'll probably end up forgetting a thing or two, but maybe in the future I'll update or change it and it'll be much more elaborate than this.)

If you want to be really evil, here's its cousin set that I love below. You are on the right track in that Mimikyu's greatest strengths in OU are not on the offensive side. Its entire value is in taking a hit with Disguise, phazing out its opponent with Red Card, and then wrecking the phased in target with Will-o-Wisp or Curse. Shadow Claw plus the EV spread is enough to at least provide chip on Gholdengo, otherwise I would run a bulkier spread in lower tiers where this also works well. Nickname mandatory, of course (and for FayaWizard ChatGPT did not create either the set or the nickname, but did provide the banter that allowed for the creation of both.)


DefectivePikachu (Mimikyu) @ Red Card
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Curse
- Destiny Bond
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Claw

 

[Heatranator]

Speed booster Iron Moth has its place on teams. However, with the prevelance of Ting Lu, it simply hits too limply and struggles with too much. It has its place, but it is not a splashable set anymore, really it should be used if you really need speed control, toxic spikes answer and a valiant answer.

Where moth really shines, is in other sets.

Choice specs is a useful tool on Sun and even potentially some balance teams (I'm sure people could make it work) as a sheer wallbreaker, as its simply put, really fucking hard to wall.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 306-360 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 280-330 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar in Sun: 458-540 (116.2 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Iron Moth Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Sun: 418-494 (81.3 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ofc, its a rocks weak breaker, which does neccesitate support, but it puts in the work.

Booster special attack is a useful alternative to booster speed. It trades speed for a lot more power.
+1 252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 252-298 (49 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It can very easily trade vs ting lu, which teammates love especially if they are something like bolt, while still doing well vs gking if it gets the fiery dance boost, easily trading 70% against non AV variants, and forcing them into uncomfortable situations.

Pivot moth is a useful pokemon on offense, able to pivot out of bad mu's while still acting as a sweeper if needed. It can utilise morning sun to keep itself healthy if wanted, but toxic can directly cripple pokemon such as ting lu, which is incredibly useful for teammates. Its ability to softcheck valiant is something that will be useful as well, giving them more breathing room to deal with other threats.

An option in general I think is underated on iron moth is toxic spikes. Unless the opponent has gking, you are going to make guarenteed progress against the opposition. You can not only cripple ting lu the next time it comes in, but also force uncomfortable situations with teammates. If there gambit answer is zamazenta or helm tusk, they now have the risk of getting poisoned and overwhelmed eventually. Its a tool that I think people should be using more on there sets over substitute, which while definetely great, is entirely droppable.

 

[Not Miyan]

Let's not. Item Clause has been shut down time and again when brought up, and for very good reason: because its nothing but a net negative to the tier.

Hazard stacking is pretty strong right now: the decimation of Defog distribution, the prominence of Ghost-types like Gholdengo and Pecharunt, and the powerful hazard setters like Ting-Lu, Gliscor, Hisuian Samurott, etc, all combine to make hazard stacking prevalent across almost all playstyles, from Stall to Hyper Offense. While hazard removal options like Galarian Weezing are rising, and Great Tusk is still as prominent as ever, they each have their own flaws which limits their ability to remove hazards.

If Heavy-Duty Boots were to be removed from the tier, almost every single defensive or bulky playstyle suffers. Ironically, while you claim that Heavy-Duty Boots kills "strategic depth" and forces "repetitive and uncreative" team building, a Heavy-Duty Boots restriction would do far more damage to these playstyles, as they would all be forced into heavy hazard removal compositions, that likely will still struggle in the tier. Meanwhile, Offense teams will run rampant, able to force loads of chip damage on teams now unable to rely on Heavy-Duty Boots to manage hazards, quickly wearing down defensive walls.

We would likely see a total overhaul of the tier, with several bans to try and limit the sudden dominance of hazards, and it would irrecoverably damage the relative state of balance the council and playerbase has worked so hard all generation to achieve.

Also, you point to VGC as an example of how item clause works, as if it's not a fundamentally different format in so many ways, that comparing it to OU is completely ridiculous. And claiming stall shapes this tier to a large degree is just laughable. A playstyle so prominent that they're all sitting at B rank on the VR.

Edit: Just in case it wasn't made clear before, we do not allow AI generated posts on this forum. You are free to voice your thoughts about the metagame, but they must be your own words, and not those of ChatGPT.

FayaWizard, I just said what I felt. You don’t have to ridicule me on that. I hadn’t been disrespectful or breached any regulations of this thread (see attachment).

If you’re gonna make me shameful for using the chatbot just convey my intention in clear voice than I think you’re very judgemental person in real life. English is not my first language and I wanted to state my intentions clear whether anyone agrees with me or not. You can agree to disagree with me but dont have to be very judgmental for me using the ChatGPT. That being said; I know this post is getting deleted too.

On that point, you can’t dictate the meta just because YOU think it would go out of the hand. Gen 4 and Gen 5 were very hazard stack metas and still all kind of playstyle existed. And just for your information; loook at any of the tour games it’s always 5-10 same mons in rotation. You can’t convince me or anyone that this meta is fun. SV needs a change and this might be it.

Again, I welcome you to disagree with me but just don’t be a ….. anyways in case you were wondering. This is self written.

And I have no intention to make you upset. But don’t judge anyone for using the AI just because they want to send a clear message because the Pokemon game discussion doesn’t really have to be in only English.

 

[FayaWizard]

FayaWizard, I just said what I felt. You don’t have to ridicule me on that. I hadn’t been disrespectful or breached any regulations of this thread (see attachment).

If you’re gonna make me shameful for using the chatbot just convey my intention in clear voice than I think you’re very judgemental person in real life. English is not my first language and I wanted to state my intentions clear whether anyone agrees with me or not. You can agree to disagree with me but dont have to be very judgmental for me using the ChatGPT. That being said; I know this post is getting deleted too.

And I have no intention to make you upset. But don’t judge anyone for using the AI just because they want to send a clear message because the Pokemon game discussion doesn’t really have to be in only English.

We would rather see posts with a shakier grasp of English than an AI-generated post. It seems that your grasp of English is fine enough to convey any points you would want to make, considering you allegedly made this post without ChatGPT.

On that point, you can’t dictate the meta just because YOU think it would go out of the hand. Gen 4 and Gen 5 were very hazard stack metas and still all kind of playstyle existed. And just for your information; loook at any of the tour games it’s always 5-10 same mons in rotation. You can’t convince me or anyone that this meta is fun. SV needs a change and this might be it.

Gen 4 and Gen 5 are vastly different metagames, and can't really be compared to modern-gen OU. Furthermore, they had worse setters, while we have the likes of Ting-Lu, Hisuian Samurott, Gliscor, etc. As for your claim of "every tour game is just the 5-10 same mons in rotation", SPL saw over 92 Pokemon brought to a game over the course of the tournament, with such picks as Hisuian Avalugg, Ludicolo, and Brambleghast. Even in the smaller sample pool of WCOP, there's been over 64 unique picks. There is certainly common picks in the metagame: that's how every tier works. But claiming that its just a small group of Pokemon being rotated in and out just isn't right.

As for "you can't convince me or anyone that this meta is fun", well, I don't have to. Survey results are pretty high right now, with a nice 7.14/10 in enjoyment for the qualified playerbase, and a 6.93/10 in competitiveness. Obviously isn't perfect, but as these are some of the highest results we've seen all DLC 2, I think its clear that things are at least going in the right direction, and people are enjoying the metagame more.

You're right that SV needs a change! I myself want to see a few more bans (Kyurem), but calling for a Heavy-Duty Boots restriction is not only unfeasible, as its an unnecessary complex ban when the simpler option of banning HDB in general exists, but also unhealthy, as the metagame would be worse off for it. Metagame innovations still exist and thrive in this meta, such as the rise of Galarian Weezing, and a fundamental shake up is not what we need, especially at an item who's pros far outweigh the cons.