Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Nocturne Nugget said:
despite all this, I still think enam is a tough mon to justify when iron valiant is so potent. it absolutely has a place but it does suffer from a just ok speed tier, a pretty mid set of abilities (I'm aware some mons are perfectly fine without their ability like darkrai and non booster paradox mons, enam just doesn't have the traits to still be great without a very useful ability) and not being immediately threatening, its potent in the right circumstances but is otherwise just a good™ mon. the main reason you'd want to use it over iron valiant is tools like scarf sets with healing wish and its better defensive profile.
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The defensive profile is honestly understated. It’s still not HUGE, But for such an offensively leaving Pokémon it has some depth to that part of its game. Ground immune, dragon immune, fighting resist, dark resist, grass resist (for those disliking Hydrapple it completely dunks on it). And hey if you want to make Garchomp players sad this is the Mon for that job.

All those small defensive traits do offer it more potential switch in chances, and I’d be interested to see this Mon explored more beyond the sets we know.
 
Moyashi said:
The defensive profile is honestly understated. It’s still not HUGE, But for such an offensively leaving Pokémon it has some depth to that part of its game. Ground immune, dragon immune, fighting resist, dark resist, grass resist (for those disliking Hydrapple it completely dunks on it). And hey if you want to make Garchomp players sad this is the Mon for that job.

All those small defensive traits do offer it more potential switch in chances, and I’d be interested to see this Mon explored more beyond the sets we know.
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Yeah agreed, the defensive attributes over a mon like valiant are small but things like enam having two immunities whereas valiant only has one is a big deal. especially when said second immunity is GROUND
 
658Greninja said:
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Enamorus is fine on BO. Specs Moonblast is spammable into non-Glowking structures and Scarf H-Wish is always clutch., but I agree it’s the worst OU mon besides Araq and Dozo who are exclusive to their designated archetypes. It faces competition with Val/Prima who provide a similar offensive profile but with more utility, packs an awkward speed tier (good for wallbreaking standards but weird as a scarfer), and ofc that dreaded SR weakness.

It does get fucked hard by Gking, but you can ofc build your team around threats that can abuse it (Ting-Lu/Tusk/Samu) and mons that can force chip onto it (Zama).

tl;dr: good mon, but hard to fit.

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Lando is still rly good. Moon ban makes it harder to get a Knock Off on its Helmet, making it a more consistent blanket check into Gambit/Zama/non-Spinner Dnite. Lando is also one of the most consistent mons at setting rocks and keeping them up. Corv gets shut down by Taunt and doesn’t like being forced to U-Turn on Helmet. Tusk takes a hefty chunk from Earth Power or dies to a potential Grass Knot. Weezing doesn’t wanna eat a Ground move. Running it also means Tusk is freed a slot like Knock or CC (perfectly fine to run dual ground cores)

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Torn is pretty solid. Not B+ material cause Bleakwind is a shitty move, but I really enjoy running AV with Icy Wind to eliminate the speed boosts from Val/Moth while also hitting Lando/Gliscor/Dnite hard. Blanket checks a good chunk of random special threats while being annoying with Knock + U-Turn. The 121 speed tier gives Torn a lot of flexibility with the EV spreads. Personally I run HP/SpD investment with enough speed for Kyurem.
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Insane disrespect to not even mention Thundurus. Completely fair though, it's definitely ass. Walled by Glowking forever, revenge killed by everything, needs Tera to do anything to Gliscor (also the world's most predictable Tera ever). It's the rare electric type that is actually decent into Ting Lu which seems like a great niche but it ends up feeling quite underwhelming into everything else.

Agree with the Enam hate as well, it's unbelievable that Fairy Ground coverage and 135 special attack isn't enough for this. If it were at least faster than 110 base speed, I could see this being scary. Somehow it has the unique combination of no damage and the worst speed tier of all time for its fragility.
 
It's so weird to say, but I think Dragonite either needs to go, or get nerfed.

The through exploration of Tera, and how that effects Bulky DD'rs like Gouging Fire and Raging Moon has done wonders for Dragonite. Gone are the days of standard Tera Normal ESpeed being the norm. Dragonite can now like literally do whatever it wants with Tera considering its gargantuan movepool + Tera Blast. What really puts the nail in the coffin for me about Dragonite is how it can not only run any Tera Type it wants to at least moderate success, but it can also run either recovery in Roost to stall out until it can one shot, or Encore. Encore is such a bastard move to give to a Pokemon the can boost Speed and Offense in one move. It is highly likely if not guaranteed that Dragonite gets free boosts off Encore, and carry the momentum to victory. Trying to play around it isn't a sure fire way either since it could be roost, or heck even three attack. There is just no way of knowing until it's too late. It's the unpredictability of Tera, being a stat stick, great abilities, and utility that all come together to make yet another overwhelming Fat DD'r that's really, really good at abusing Tera.

Banning Tera Blast is a potential solution to the problem. Dragonite does lose a lot of set viability without Tera Blast. Tera Fairy, Tera Ghost, and Tera Flying all lose their punch without Tera Blast. Restricting Tera on Dragonite to either a handful of offensive options plus defensive options could be what it takes to reign the dragon in. It might be a band-aid fix given Dragonite's stats and movepool, but it's a option that could be explored that might have positive effects beyond Dragonite.

Whether it's through Tera Blast, or just a straight up ban. I'd urge the council to look deeply into action against the OG Dragon, and for everyone else to rank Dragonite a 5 on the next survey.
 
Yeah, Dragonite is a completely healthy presence in the meta that has a lot of defensive utility and doesn't threaten to end games really quickly like Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon did. It's useful for keeping offense in check and isn't too much of a threat offensively given its low Base Speed and how it often doesn't use STAB options unless you burn your Tera on it. The playability of SV OU would decrease without it in the tier as opposed to all the mons that have been banned so far.
 
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June Heat said:
It's so weird to say, but I think Dragonite either needs to go, or get nerfed.

The through exploration of Tera, and how that effects Bulky DD'rs like Gouging Fire and Raging Moon has done wonders for Dragonite. Gone are the days of standard Tera Normal ESpeed being the norm. Dragonite can now like literally do whatever it wants with Tera considering its gargantuan movepool + Tera Blast. What really puts the nail in the coffin for me about Dragonite is how it can not only run any Tera Type it wants to at least moderate success, but it can also run either recovery in Roost to stall out until it can one shot, or Encore. Encore is such a bastard move to give to a Pokemon the can boost Speed and Offense in one move. It is highly likely if not guaranteed that Dragonite gets free boosts off Encore, and carry the momentum to victory. Trying to play around it isn't a sure fire way either since it could be roost, or heck even three attack. There is just no way of knowing until it's too late. It's the unpredictability of Tera, being a stat stick, great abilities, and utility that all come together to make yet another overwhelming Fat DD'r that's really, really good at abusing Tera.

Banning Tera Blast is a potential solution to the problem. Dragonite does lose a lot of set viability without Tera Blast. Tera Fairy, Tera Ghost, and Tera Flying all lose their punch without Tera Blast. Restricting Tera on Dragonite to either a handful of offensive options plus defensive options could be what it takes to reign the dragon in. It might be a band-aid fix given Dragonite's stats and movepool, but it's a option that could be explored that might have positive effects beyond Dragonite.

Whether it's through Tera Blast, or just a straight up ban. I'd urge the council to look deeply into action against the OG Dragon, and for everyone else to rank Dragonite a 5 on the next survey.
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MY DREAM IS COMING TRUUUUUUUUUUUUE!!!

Fair warning this post will likely not be constructive as I am gushing about my favorite pokemon finally being amazing.

I can't believe it took 9 gens to get to this point. From its wrapping days of gen 1 to the dynamic puncher of gen 2 to the beta Salamence (aka my second least favorite pokemon) of gen 3 to outrage spam of gen 4 and especially gen 5 to the rather middling performance thanks to fairies in gen 6 and 7 to its hdb and dual wingbeat fueled resurgence in gen 8 to being FINALLY ONE OF IF NOT THE BEST OFFENSIVE POKEMON IN GEN 9! Early in the gen it was using tera normal to blitz through every non steel ghost and Gargancl type in ou. Then in dlc2 more experimentation was done which led to experimentation with tera flying fairy and ground as well as moves like encore to give it free setup turns. Now with Roaring Moon gone Dragonite is without a doubt the best dragon type in the tier at the moment and now people are also saying it needs to go. In my opinion this would be the highest honor Dragonite can recieve as this would be its TRUE crowning achievement. For that reason I hope Dragonite gets suspect tested even if all I have said above isn't a valid reason to do so (which it isn't).
 
June Heat said:
It's so weird to say, but I think Dragonite either needs to go, or get nerfed.

The through exploration of Tera, and how that effects Bulky DD'rs like Gouging Fire and Raging Moon has done wonders for Dragonite. Gone are the days of standard Tera Normal ESpeed being the norm. Dragonite can now like literally do whatever it wants with Tera considering its gargantuan movepool + Tera Blast. What really puts the nail in the coffin for me about Dragonite is how it can not only run any Tera Type it wants to at least moderate success, but it can also run either recovery in Roost to stall out until it can one shot, or Encore. Encore is such a bastard move to give to a Pokemon the can boost Speed and Offense in one move. It is highly likely if not guaranteed that Dragonite gets free boosts off Encore, and carry the momentum to victory. Trying to play around it isn't a sure fire way either since it could be roost, or heck even three attack. There is just no way of knowing until it's too late. It's the unpredictability of Tera, being a stat stick, great abilities, and utility that all come together to make yet another overwhelming Fat DD'r that's really, really good at abusing Tera.

Banning Tera Blast is a potential solution to the problem. Dragonite does lose a lot of set viability without Tera Blast. Tera Fairy, Tera Ghost, and Tera Flying all lose their punch without Tera Blast. Restricting Tera on Dragonite to either a handful of offensive options plus defensive options could be what it takes to reign the dragon in. It might be a band-aid fix given Dragonite's stats and movepool, but it's a option that could be explored that might have positive effects beyond Dragonite.

Whether it's through Tera Blast, or just a straight up ban. I'd urge the council to look deeply into action against the OG Dragon, and for everyone else to rank Dragonite a 5 on the next survey.
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Dragonite isnt overwhelming

It is incredibly splashable and versatile but no matter how it runs its set it will run into coverage issues. It can never fit enough moves to beat enough common checks. The fact it so infrequently has natural stab on its attacks also leaves it lacking in instant power and makes it quite a tera hog at times. Not that it's not great, it is and it's arguably a top 6 pokemon right now but it's not an issue, let alone something worthy of a 5 on a survey.
 
The thing that separates Dragonite from the other Tera DD cheesers is that its counterplay is actually reliable. Roaring moon and gouging fire were broken because the pokemon that “answered” them just had to hope they weren’t a certain set. Dondozo’s fat ass sits on every set except CB (even then the only thing threatening it is outrage which can be exploited), Metal Birds beat everything except fire punch encore (which just means its walled by something else instead). Considering most of its sets don’t even run stab, most fat guys can soft check it. Theres also just the fact that almost every scarfer / BE speed mon outruns it (Unlike Moon, which outran every scarfer capable of ohkoing it after a boost) The Tera Blast sets are pretty cheese but get rid of that move and I don’t see how it could be considered remotely a problem.

Also I agree with what Avira said, It’s ability to soft check a bunch of things with stuff like multiscale, encore, and dtail is generally speaking a positive for the meta
 
It would take a lot more from Dragonite to convince me it deserves the banhammer. It does have the "flavor of the month" feel after the OST finals performance where it bailed out against Zamazenta with Tera Ghost, but even losing to it on the ladder in the ~1600-1700 level I never thought "oh, this thing should go as it's wrecking the tier". I see it similar to having Gliscor's problem in having several good sets that are tough to prepare for all at once, but the Choice Band, DD Boots, and mixed sets all have answers that aren't too cumbersome to fit on a team. Dragonite also has an odd case of 4MSS where it wants to run Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Hurricane, Dragon Tail, Roost, Encore, and Tera Blast Ghost all in one set and it set and that's way over the four move limit given. They are all solid moves for sure but stretch Dragonite in way too many directions to use effectively at once. The set that I use to check it in an emergency is Tera Ghost Rocky Helmet Roar Great Tusk with enough speed for Kingambit and the remaining EVs in defense.
 
i feel that a dragonite suspect test would be unnecessary, for reasons i already listed in a previous debate:
viivian said:
gouging fire was banned because of the sheer amount of damage it could dish out in addition to its bulk granting it easy setup on anything that isn't choice specs kyurem. dragonite has the bulk to set up freely but it's not good as a wallbreaker period, it has far too many defensive checks and buffers that gouge simply never had. even if you run offense and are finding yourself struggling against it, most teams will have a fat steel type + at least one tera ghost pokemon in the back to deal with it easily. it's not like you have to go out of your way to fit one of these two onto a team either, these are widely applicable options and have far more utility beyond just checking dnite. i'm not sure if you are using and/or building teams that are weak to dragonite or if you just aren't preserving your checks to it, but it is by all means possible for all playstyles to deal with dnite. it's a great pokemon for sure but it has several noticeable flaws that keep it in line
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dragonite is a fantastic pokemon and undeniably one of the scariest setup sweepers in the game, don't get me wrong, but its heavy reliance on tera (and by proxy its lack of immediate offensive pressure) can seriously hold it back
 
There was talk of enam here. I think its pretty damn good. It does have a few limitations, since its speed is a bit awkward, rocks weakness is annoying, its Gking MU is poor, and it lacks recovery like a few of the other popular birds, but I'd still say it has a lot of value in the metagame. Being a strong check to both Zama and Tusk is still a very good trait. IMO Tusk is fairly difficult for most teams to have a reliable, long-term switch-in to, so consistently making it scared to click its best attack is awesome. Unliked Dragonite, it also naturally faster too so it can scare it out. Scarf also does awesome vs a lot of the fast Pokemon like Darkrai, Dragapult, etc which can be tricky to answer. Healing Wish is also just an amazing tool to bring a battered mon like Tusk back to life, making it easier to beat Gambit / Bolt in endgames, or revive your own Kingambit for its final showdown.

I'm not sure what the consensus is on Tera Blast Stellar, but IMO it is also once of Enamorus's strongest tools. It is an extremely effective punisher to poor Tera usage from the likes of Darkrai, Zama, Garg, Tusk etc. and can allow Enam to quickly Snowball in end-games. I'd also say its effective vs a a few of the more passive Moonblast resist like Corv / Moltres since you can use it to snowball against them too. A lot of Pokemon like to Tera in front of Enam, and I like Tera Blast Stellar's ability to punish that while not needing to play around any immunity games that you would need to with other moves like Earth Power.

Most of the time I've used Scarf Enam, I've liked it a lot more than Val. Admittingly, Val has some cool sets like the SubCM ones, but most of the time it can feel underwhelming for me due to a combination of factors, specifically that its a booster mon forced out by Gking and its defensive utility being pretty horrible compared to Enam. Also vulnerable to webs is always horrible.
 
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JackRG said:
The thing that separates Dragonite from the other Tera DD cheesers is that its counterplay is actually reliable. Roaring moon and gouging fire were broken because the pokemon that “answered” them just had to hope they weren’t a certain set. Dondozo’s fat ass sits on every set except CB (even then the only thing threatening it is outrage which can be exploited), Metal Birds beat everything except fire punch encore (which just means its walled by something else instead). Considering most of its sets don’t even run stab, most fat guys can soft check it. Theres also just the fact that almost every scarfer / BE speed mon outruns it (Unlike Moon, which outran every scarfer capable of ohkoing it after a boost) The Tera Blast sets are pretty cheese but get rid of that move and I don’t see how it could be considered remotely a problem.

Also I agree with what Avira said, It’s ability to soft check a bunch of things with stuff like multiscale, encore, and dtail is generally speaking a positive for the meta
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To be clear, I do agree that the only problematic part about Dragonite is the range of two-attack sets it gets access to with Tera Blast (Ghost/Fairy/Flying/Fire), but I will say that I think this list undersells its threat level a bit. Volc's massive issue, to me, was how easily it could get multiple boosts through bulk investment/Flame Body/its natural typing/Tera/Morning Sun, and once it got to +2 the scarfer/BE backup plans kinda fall apart. Goug was similar, and I think Dragonite's in this category, even more naturally than Moon (which only really used certain bulky sets to do that, and more often just using the BE boost to be scarier after a single boost).

Dnite just really thrives off of "get a boost on something that can't touch it -> tera on the initial answer -> get another boost -> sweep at +2/+2" sequence that it gets so many of because Multiscale gives it such a crazy level of bulk if you save it for the endgame, and Encore/Roost just exacerbate that. Like, Corv is definitely a good answer, but Dnite definitely has ways around it; for one, you kinda need ID because even seemingly unthreatening Dnite sets can just muscle through eventually (especially if they have Roost), but even if you have ID, you have to dance around Encore, Tera Fire is a massive issue, Tera Ghost requires you to be Brave Bird + ID, and all the while you need to dance around the fact that the Dnite player has so many more ways to generate momentum off a panicking Corv than vice-versa. Encore Val is certainly a reasonable offensive check, but if it's Espeed then clicking Encore is very much not a good outcome for you, clicking Moonblast instead runs the risk of them just eating it to get to +2 and outspeeding you, and alternatively it can just switch, keep the Multiscale, and next time it outspeeds at +1.

I'm not really convinced Dnite's broken, it's definitely possible to layer "mostly probably secure" answers onto your team so that you can contain it, and the utility it offers from being a not-passive check to a whole bunch of mons like Ogerpon or Moth is really nice so I'd really rather not see it banned, but it's definitely entering the category for me of "definitely or maybe problematic things that would be unproblematic or at least much less problematic without Tera Blast", a list that includes at the very least Volc/Espathra/Goug/Moon/Gambit/Eleki/Kyurem.

This is getting more into the realm of policy questions, but we really are in uncharted waters, so what do the policymakers think on the Tera Blast question? The list of move ban cases keeps growing (Shed Tail/Last Respects/Baton Pass/Sleep), and clearly the standard for a bannable move isn't "every user has to be broken" or even "most users of this move are broken" (because I don't think anyone thinks that a bunch of ZU trashmons would be running over OU even with unrestricted Hypnosis), but rather something more like "as long as this move is permitted we're just playing a never-ending game of Whack-a-Mole to deal with the next-most broken abuser". And I mean, that's not a standard that gives us an objective line where we go from "ban the abusers" to "ban the move". So what do y'all think? And what do you think would have been the earliest point where we could ask the Tera Blast question? Would policy have accepted a potential Tera Blast suspect going back to, like, the Volc suspect?
 
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Thank you for the replies. Obviously I was hyperbolic in my statements, but even so I do believe there is truth to some of it.

I also did say a Tera Blast ban could be an avenue to take power away from Dragonite and keep it more manageable. There is a Tera Blast movement, and how many times do we gotta watch a setup sweeper use Tera Blast to muscle past would be checks? I feel like the recent developments with RM and Dnite really highlight just how volatile Tera Blast can make a Pokemon.

So if Dragonite has to be the final straw for Tera Blast to be looked at then great! If not, I do think we should be weary of Pete the Magic Dragon moving forward.
 
June Heat said:
Thank you for the replies. Obviously I was hyperbolic in my statements, but even so I do believe there is truth to some of it.

I also did say a Tera Blast ban could be an avenue to take power away from Dragonite and keep it more manageable. There is a Tera Blast movement, and how many times do we gotta watch a setup sweeper use Tera Blast to muscle past would be checks? I feel like the recent developments with RM and Dnite really highlight just how volatile Tera Blast can make a Pokemon.

So if Dragonite has to be the final straw for Tera Blast to be looked at then great! If not, I do think we should be weary of Pete the Magic Dragon moving forward.
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Although I'm in favor of a Tera Blast ban, the Tera sweeper problem goes deeper than that.

First of all, Tera often gives you the ability to get to +2 pretty easily. You set up on something that can't touch you, forcing the switch, and then you Tera to brute force another. In past gens, you would be critisized for letting a known sweeper stunt on you for multiple setup moves. In this gen, getting to +2 or even +3 is much easier because of Tera.

A lot of the sweepers that have been talked about (banned or not) have good enough STAB and/or coverage moves where most sets don't need TB. For instance, Roaring Moon would only really needed Tera Blast Fairy for the Dark/Fairy coverage. Almost every other set had better coverage moves. And even then, Tera Fairy would have still been usable without TB Fairy since it is a strong defensive typing.

Anyways, it is the speed boosting setup moves that are the most dangerous since they make it harder to RK without priority. This is mainly about Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance, which can easily become broken with Tera. The main OU mons left with DD are D-nite, Kyurem, and maybe Pult. Wake is a special attacker. The Quiver Dancers are mostly lower rated now that Volc is gone. Maybe something happens with Ribombee, but probably not. So it's just 3 mons in Ou that we potentially need to look at. And I think most people would say Pult doesn't need to be looked at.

Dragonite gets a ton of coverage. Maybe Tera Fire TB is strong, but why wouldn't you just run Fire Punch to be a bit less Tera reliant? Same for Tera Ice and Ice Spinner and so on. Dragonite lacks good STAB moves more than it lacks coverage. That isn't a TB thing. TB Flying could maybe be a thing with EQ. But Flying/Ground coverage isn't that much better than Normal/Ground coverage aside from the fact you get double Flying STAB if you Tera.

If anything, Kyurem is more TB reliant on its own DD sets because of its lack of coverage. I would also argue that its immidiate threat as a special wallbreaker is where a lot of the threat of DD Kyurem comes from. This makes scouting it more risky since you could lose a mon or two just trying to figure out what set it is.
 
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