Woger has to take rocks 4 times in that scenario and this is assuming there are no offensive checks to Woger on the team.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Sure, but woger teams usually either 1. Are more offensive where rocks damage doesn't matter as much or 2. Pack hazard removal in order to enable waterpon a lot more. Also the whole point of vileplume is to hard counter woger, which means the vileplume team would be unlikely to have too many offensive checks to woger, maybe a pult at best. This still means you are on the back foot always against ghold+waterpon, which again, isn't a good look for a mon's whose whole purpose is coutering waterpon.
Amoonguss, which basically outclasses Vileplume completely due to regenerator + foul play to chip ghold does not fall victim to these same issues, although it can struggle a bit more into SD pon
Hah, you would think! Moonblast does an excellent job of simply popping a balloon, the chance of lowering Sp.Atk with a very spammable move is quality icing on the cake, it's nice chip damage and honestly? Who cares? Trust that when I play with Plume, I have multiple Ghold checks, they really aren't hard to fit on a team. Plume isn't meant for taking on Special attackers anyway. I mean, I play with the thing, and it really isn't hard to fit Ghold checks, as it has been pointed out many a time.
I really don't have much issue against Ghold/Ogre. Not like they haven't gotten the best of me, but between getting chipped away with Moonblast, losing offense in the process and simply switching when necessary (yes, they can predict my counter swaps which is why I gotta make it count).
Amoonguss doesn't have Leech Seed (I think) and especially Strength Sap, that alone allows different shenanigans.
I'm not saying Regenerator isn't better, because it objectively is. But it losing Spore really did a number on it, and it allows Vileplume's combination of better offensive stats, and decent enough movepool to at least accomplish things in a way that makes me not miss the Gus. Regenerator is the superior ability, but Vileplume uses Effect Spore to terrific effect. I win against Dragonite, Zam, Dogi, I can take Gambit for the most part and I actually wanna say that, both sides fresh, Vileplume has the odds against the common variety of Cinderace!
I keep posting here because I see potential ways the tier could be fixed and see it as a meta that could be good
IIRC Vert had some pretty intense posts just calling everyone bad lol.
You sound pretty silly tbh. Voicing dissent in a public forum is like the original way to create change or have issues addressed. Finch and other council members answer questions here all the time, so it’s quite obvious people’s voices are heard.
Reqs are definitely a way (prob the best way) to have your voice heard but they wouldn’t have a non-qualified forum if it was the only way. Reqs are also harder than ever (not saying they’re too hard or shouldn’t be harder) and I’m not consistent enough to get them.
Last edited:
Closing the survey, thank you everyone who filled it out! I got a lot more responses than I expected.
I'd be curious to know the breakdowns of playstyle by ELO bracket– the raw info doesn't really say all that much about the teamstyle usage by each ELO and more specific info that would allow for actual extrapolations
if that's in the works then mb and thank you!
i'm honestly surprised at how few respondents are in the 1000-1300 range. even though the vast majority of people that low probably don't even know this thread exists, i would've thought the sheer size of the demographic would be enough to outweigh that. guess not though
People can also fabricate their skill level due to the lack of proof necessary. This happened a fair amount on surveys before we went to forum based I believe
My main takeaway is everyone claims this generation has too much HO, but yet tournaments and high ladder have it seeing less usage and those graphs confirm the same notion — it’s plenty viable of course, but by no means dominant or standout.
HO is clearly more viable this gen than what it was in gen 8 (Which is not an attack to SS OU by any means. I like gen 8) and therefore, I think that a lot of players are not "used to" to also prepare for a lot of HO in ladder. A lot relatively speaking.
For example, Webs and clearly HO teams are much better in gens 6-7 than what they are in gen 8. So for me, that I started playing OU when USUM came out, it's natural from my point to view.
For example, Webs and clearly HO teams are much better in gens 6-7 than what they are in gen 8. So for me, that I started playing OU when USUM came out, it's natural from my point to view.
i mean to be fair i'd imagine the sampled population is inherently a touch biased towards 1300+ ELO players. If you're knowledgable enough to be consistently talking and checking this thread specifically you would have to have a certain amount of knowledge or care about the metagame. I would say the vast majority of the 1000-1300 is people who either have a passive investment in the game (i.e. playing a few randbats or OU matches when they have a few minutes) or are Little Timmy trying to make Charizard work in OU.
tbh to me gen 9 has been dominated by bulky offense after DLC 2. High ladder is dominated by BO, Ting-Lu Pech has come out of the woodwork in full force during SPL. There are a lot of really powerful threats and great hazard setters that make HO thrive, but a lot of the time those exact same teams fill an even more potent role on Bulky Offense– for example, Ghold, Bolt, Rai, Dnite, Kyurem, Lando, Gambit, and Zama are all good on HO, but are all also staples on BO (Lando slightly less so because BO often prefers Glisc, Tusk, or Lu) because in addition to the very notable offensive utility that makes them good on HO, have the bulk and tools to thrive on BO. Of course, the line between what we consider "Bulky Offense" and "Hyper Offense" is a little vague, but to me Ting-Lu and Co. have seen a lot more consistent success and even dominance over the course of the gen post DLC
Yeah that is what I plan on doing, it’ll just take some time to go through the google sheet. As far as I know there’s no way to automatically sort the data like that, although I could be wrong.
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Impish Nature
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 160 HP / 120 Atk / 228 Def
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
Been running this set on Showdown. I think players tend to forget how defensively bulky Kingambit is. This set takes advantage of that bulk to more effectively check certain threats such as Wogerpon and overall just gives it a better chance at setting up
This is one of the more interesting calcs for me
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 160 HP / 228+ Def Kingambit: 318-376 (83.4 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Although, Impish Nature might not become too popular, I can see players investing way more into Kingambit's bulk in the near future
Tusk needs spinner. Not just for Gliscor. You go from beating Dragonite to being walled by it. Bad idea for sun.
While this is true, Sun Tusk doesn't mind switching out since it doesn't lose its one time Booster Energy like other sets do
One question I've always wanted to ask: Why is Eject Button Hatterene so popular on Sun?
I understand it's to pivot in a sun threat, but just running a 2nd sun setter seems so much better.
Like Torkoal -> Hatterene, eject out. Leaves a Torkoal and a chunked (and mostly useless) Hatterene.
Ninetales -> Healing Wish still leaves you with a Torkoal in your back pocket but gives you a healing wish floating around.
Or, the way I prefer, Torkoal lead -> Eject Pack Overheat for slow pivot, still have a Ninetales in the back.
This is more a Hatterene rant than advocating for double sun setter. I could easily see 1 setter + Corviknight/Slither Wing pivots being better. A chunked Hatterene is just such a useless mon, I feel as though the spot could be used so much better.
I understand it's to pivot in a sun threat, but just running a 2nd sun setter seems so much better.
Like Torkoal -> Hatterene, eject out. Leaves a Torkoal and a chunked (and mostly useless) Hatterene.
Ninetales -> Healing Wish still leaves you with a Torkoal in your back pocket but gives you a healing wish floating around.
Or, the way I prefer, Torkoal lead -> Eject Pack Overheat for slow pivot, still have a Ninetales in the back.
This is more a Hatterene rant than advocating for double sun setter. I could easily see 1 setter + Corviknight/Slither Wing pivots being better. A chunked Hatterene is just such a useless mon, I feel as though the spot could be used so much better.
Hatterene has a very unique and potent set of utility for Sun that it greatly appreciates. Magic Bounce is an excellent way to deny Stealth Rocks and to a lesser extent Spikes, especially crucial on Ninetales teams, and Nuzzle offers a great way to potentially cripple a sweeper that trys to get greedy. Furthermore, Hatterne's Fairy-typing allows it to act as a temporary check to Dragon types, which Sun otherwise struggles against, and Healing Wish is always a boon to any team with frail sweepers and breakers like Sun.
On the other hand, running double setter is horrendous: you are essentially playing 4v6, because both Ninetales and Torkoal do not offer nearly enough utility besides setting Sun to make it worth dedicating two slots to them. Sure, Ninetales can Healing Wish, and sure, Torkoal can Spin and set Stealth Rocks, but both of them are extremely easy to exploit, easily shut down, and ironically Hatterene can do the niche of Healing Wish, hazard denial, and technically hazard setting all in one.
Similarly, Corviknight is extremely prone to being shut down by Gholdengo, while Slither Wing just can't remove hazards.
Now, Hatterene isn't essential on Sun teams, but you can't deny its place on the style as a versatile pivot, hazard remover, Healing Wish user, status spreader, and Dragon-type check.
What do you guys think happened to life orb? It seems non existent in SV OU
Given how steep power creep has been this generation, and the relative prevalence of entry hazards and other forms of residual damage, chip damage on offensive pieces can be ill-afforded, perhaps moreso than any generation before, especially chip damage voluntarily accepted and entertained by running Life Orb.
Outwith Sheer Force cases, it gets a little harder to justify running over a choice item, or Booster Energy for those that can use it, or even Boots to avoid chip damage from hazards
the massive increase in spikes distribution, the cutting of defog's distribution, and the introduction of gholdengo have made hazards more commonplace and more difficult to remove than they've been in a very long time. as a result, it's a lot more difficult this gen to justify shaving off an extra 10% of your hp for every attack when you're going to be coming in on hazards far more often than not—especially when there's another item that lets you just ignore those hazards. many all-out-attacker or offensive-pivot sets that ran life orb in the past prefer to run heavy-duty boots now, though some run expert belt to still provide life orb's boosts sometimes while not gimping the mon's longevity. boots has almost completely replaced every other "slap this on your mon if you can't think of anything" option, which was the category that life orb often fell into. this also has a lot to do with the generally faster pace of the meta, offensive power creep and tera rendering life orb less necessary, and defensive power creep making the item's boosts less rewarding
I am curious, people are now saying Galarian Slowking has fallen off. Did Pecharunt really outclass it?
Outclassed isn't the right word, its more just competition as a poison pivot. Pecharunt can't replicate Gkings spdef profile and Gking still has Fsight, Twave, and Regen, its just that you aren't running both on the same team and Pecharunt has very high usage on the teamstyles Gking fits on.
In addition to what DaddyBuzzwole said, there's a second factor, one which hazard uptime factors into: Life Orb is only worthwhile if it lowers the number of attacks you need to kill the enemy.
When your base damage is 40% to an enemy, Life Orb turns a 3HKO into a 2HKO. When your base damage is 60%, it turns a 2HKO at +1 into an OHKO at +1. You're taking less damage from Life Orb recoil than you would from taking an extra attack, so the item is beneficial. It's also good on a cleaner or revenge killer, where you don't know how much damage you'll need, and so more is better; needlessly taking Life Orb recoil when it wasn't required is far less punishing than leaving the enemy alive.
However, if hazards are everywhere, then any opponent not wearing HDB is going to take hazard damage and get OHKO'd at +1 anyway, or the 2HKO from a 40% hit. In that situation, all you're doing is costing yourself an extra 10% health on each attack, on top of being vulnerable to the opponent's entry hazards. The Life Orb isn't just useless, it's actually a liability.
As offensive power creep increases, there are fewer situations where the enemy would survive in the first place, which also makes Life Orb a useless item - dead from a 105% roll is the same as from a 135% roll, and between increasingly min-maxed stat spreads, wider access to boosting moves, and items like Booster Energy, those scenarios are increasingly common.
Life Orb still has its niche, but mons that appreciate it are less common. It's to the point where the item is starting to benefit from surprise value, scoring unexpected KOs.
TLDR - heavy duty boots is a far better item, and life orb is not good for longevity in a hazard heavy meta, if not using HDB