Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Heatranator]

Because lots of people liked Smogons original vision of only banning a Pokemon if it is broken. Banning Pokemon to sculpt a metagame blows.

That is not how Smogon tiering works when unbanning things, whether you like it or not. Doesn't matter if its broken or not.

III.) The onus of providing justification is on the side changing the status quo.

• The status quo can be changed in certain cases, such as new game releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-U in ORAS, which started directly in OU, unlike other 680-BST legendaries, which start in Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

So you do in fact, have to show why it is NECESSARY for regieleki to be unbanned. The best I've seen is that its a spinner that beats gholdengo.
...
Which loses to one of the best spikers in the tier in ting lu.

Our removal isn't so horrible that we desperately need a mid spinner (I'm calling eleki mid in terms of spinning, it would be a nightmare to deal with in any other avenue). Tusk is as great as ever and destroys gholdengo, treads has popped up a lot moe to counteract pecharunt, corviknight is fine enough as you can use other pokes like cinderace and darkrai to beat ghold, cinder can be good temporary removal and hatterene is fine as well.

So if its unbanning is making it to an option which we don't desperately need, with the drawback that it would at best cause a lot of volt-turn teams, which are notoriously horrible to fight, and at worst is a broken piece of shit, while it also doesn't even do the one positive thing its meant to do even well, we really have to ask why you we are trying to drop it?

Frankly, its tiring every single third page somebody suggests something else to drop that will be broken. If tera blast is banned, sure, regieleki could prob drop. But until then, keep it locked up in ubers.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Doesn’t OHKO? Oops volt switched out. And unless you pack priority you can’t punish it for doing so while you have to content with hazard pressure from the Eleki side.

Also the hazard weakness with non HDB sets applied last time it was around. Wasn’t acceptable then why should it be now?

Once again I’m seriously genuinely asking. Why does the topic of retesting Pokémon down from Ubers keep coming back up when we already have a laundry list of huge threats to account for as is?

To address these three points:

1) I'll admit that Regieleki is a great Volt Switch spambot. However, it's actually rather prediction-reliant - when you consider the sheer power levels of OU this generation as well as Regieleki's inherent lack of defensive utility as Eve explained in her post, over time Regieleki's teammates on balanced or offensive teams will eventually get beaten down, and when paired with hazards, be broken down far quicker than Regieleki can whittle down a well-constructed balance core. Your core may have to contend with hazard pressure, yes, but so does theirs, and Regieleki's lack of immediate power can come back to bite if you attempt to use it to throw out reckless Volt Switch attempts.

2) Frankly, non-HDB sets are gimmicks - they are easily scouted by the myriad of specially defensive pivots and Protect users in the metagame, and as said earlier, one wrong turn equals major pressure on the defensive core behind Eleki that over time makes it break open. Considering that the DLCs came out as well, introducing new checks to it and boosting some old friends, the two metas are rather different from one another and the argument that "it wasn't acceptable then" holds no water.

3) The reason the topic comes back up is because we can't agree what to do. There is a major camp that believes Kyurem is broken, while there are more minor camps staking their choice of suspect test behind Gliscor, Wellspring, Tera Blast, or even all 4. There are also small camps that believe dropping this-and-that Uber will help check the current metagame "flow", so to speak. If Regieleki can also help deal with these huge threats, then we should drop it if it's found not to be broken (which I believe is the case - Regieleki would be perfectly fine in this meta).

 

[Moyashi]

I'll admit that Regieleki is a great Volt Switch spambot. However, it's actually rather prediction-reliant - when you consider the sheer power levels of OU this generation as well as Regieleki's inherent lack of defensive utility as Eve explained in her post, over time Regieleki's teammates on balanced or offensive teams will eventually get beaten down, and when paired with hazards, be broken down far quicker than Regieleki can whittle down a well-constructed balance core. Your core may have to contend with hazard pressure, yes, but so does theirs, and Regieleki's lack of immediate power can come back to bite if you attempt to use it to throw out reckless Volt Switch attempts.

Not really sure what this even is implying. It’s not like its teammates exist just to soak hits for it. Or that they’re without longevity or the ability to exert pressure themself.

This is also acting like Eleki isn’t doing much damage when that simply isn’t true. And the damage it does is easy to exploit with its teammates too. Like sure it won’t drop a healthy Darkrai or Iron Moth with TBolt, but they’re also not really able to switch in (2HKOd with rocks up both are), and worst case it just Volt Switches on them into a check to them. With a good backbone on a balance team for example this wouldn’t be hard to pull off.

(Also while HDB is its best and easiest to use, there WAS some use of other non HDB sets before its ban and they DID work).

Frankly, non-HDB sets are gimmicks - they are easily scouted by the myriad of specially defensive pivots and Protect users in the metagame, and as said earlier, one wrong turn equals major pressure on the defensive core behind Eleki that over time makes it break open. Considering that the DLCs came out as well, introducing new checks to it and boosting some old friends, the two metas are rather different from one another and the argument that "it wasn't acceptable then" holds no water.

What do these spdef pivots do to stop it? If you faced for example a Magnet or Specs Eleki (both saw use before the ban) and sent in your Glowking to scout it, only for it to just Volt Switch on your switch in and bring out the appropriate response, what do you even do? This is the issue. If you can’t block its VSwitch, it’s very difficult to position against for slower teams. There’s an uncomfortable prediction game involved in trying to outsmart it and it’s not very fun (for the record, in Natdex we had Eleki legal for much longer than it was allowed here and it was no less miserable to face, and not for its power though that didn’t help).

What new checks did DLC add? Genuinely asking. The best one could argue is Raging Bolt, but that’s not much different from anything else and risks being a Volt Switch target too and also has never been weaker than it is currently with Ting Lu being a top 2-3 Mon (still good, but arguably considerably worse than it was at the start of the dlc). Regarding Protect, we have I think 4? Garg, Gliscor, Kyurem and Mola, and the only one with a positive match up is Kyurem but that’s not really a lot.

The reason the topic comes back up is because we can't agree what to do. There is a major camp that believes Kyurem is broken, while there are more minor camps staking their choice of suspect test behind Gliscor, Wellspring, Tera Blast, or even all 4. There are also small camps that believe dropping this-and-that Uber will help check the current metagame "flow", so to speak. If Regieleki can also help deal with these huge threats, then we should drop it if it's found not to be broken (which I believe is the case - Regieleki would be perfectly fine in this meta).

Dropping Ubers just adds to the list of Pokémon to check on top of an already lengthy sheet of them and most of those threats are dangerous already. We don’t stand to gain anything by doing it in most cases. Furthermore, not agreeing on what to look into is not really a good reason to keep rehashing the same topic that always ends up just as unproductive as arguing about who to test (almost worse since at least arguing about what’s in the tier is relevant).

You’re plenty entitled to your view on it not being that bad. I massively disagree but that’s just differing opinions at the end of the day.

What I just don’t love at the end of the day, is the way this thread almost never seems to talk about the actual meta game anymore. SPL has been ongoing for some time, ladder trends have come and gone but these very seldom seem to get focus. I mean Weavile has been crushing it in SPL and is on track to rejoin OU, Tinkaton is coming not far behind it, Meow and Rilla are dropping, there’s a lot people could focus on that’s really relevant. For me it’s just extremely frustrating how little actual “metagame discussion” seems to happen these days.

 

[Avira]

To address these three points:

1) I'll admit that Regieleki is a great Volt Switch spambot. However, it's actually rather prediction-reliant - when you consider the sheer power levels of OU this generation as well as Regieleki's inherent lack of defensive utility as Eve explained in her post, over time Regieleki's teammates on balanced or offensive teams will eventually get beaten down, and when paired with hazards, be broken down far quicker than Regieleki can whittle down a well-constructed balance core. Your core may have to contend with hazard pressure, yes, but so does theirs, and Regieleki's lack of immediate power can come back to bite if you attempt to use it to throw out reckless Volt Switch attempts.

2) Frankly, non-HDB sets are gimmicks - they are easily scouted by the myriad of specially defensive pivots and Protect users in the metagame, and as said earlier, one wrong turn equals major pressure on the defensive core behind Eleki that over time makes it break open. Considering that the DLCs came out as well, introducing new checks to it and boosting some old friends, the two metas are rather different from one another and the argument that "it wasn't acceptable then" holds no water.

3) The reason the topic comes back up is because we can't agree what to do. There is a major camp that believes Kyurem is broken, while there are more minor camps staking their choice of suspect test behind Gliscor, Wellspring, Tera Blast, or even all 4. There are also small camps that believe dropping this-and-that Uber will help check the current metagame "flow", so to speak. If Regieleki can also help deal with these huge threats, then we should drop it if it's found not to be broken (which I believe is the case - Regieleki would be perfectly fine in this meta).

While I agree with you that Regieleki may not have gotten a fair shake since the last time it was here we got a supercharged version of it with unnerfed Transistor, Regieleki doesn't do all that much to help check Kyurem, Gliscor, and Ogerpon-Wellspring. It's only way of threatening Gliscor is to blow its Tera and use Tera Blast with Gliscor OHKOing Regieleki pre-Tera. Kyurem checks Regieleki instead of the other way around, and Regieleki has no hope of actually switching into Ogerpon-Wellspring, making it only serviceable as a revenge killer of her.

Meanwhile, it hugely threatens a lot of the tier's viable mons aside from very specific checks such as Assault Vest Iron Crown, Iron Treads, Kyurem, Slowking-Galar, Ting-Lu, Assault Vest Zamazenta, Bellibolt, Blissey, Clodsire, Goodra-Hisui, Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound and Tyranitar, many of which are rarely seen in OU. And this is assuming Regieleki only uses its Heavy-Duty Boots sets considering other sets are usable, which would increase the teambuilding constraints it would put on the meta when the #1 complaint of this tier is that it has too many threats.

 

[FCKNfuego]

That is not how Smogon tiering works when unbanning things, whether you like it or not. Doesn't matter if its broken or not.

III.) The onus of providing justification is on the side changing the status quo.

• The status quo can be changed in certain cases, such as new game releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-U in ORAS, which started directly in OU, unlike other 680-BST legendaries, which start in Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

So you do in fact, have to show why it is NECESSARY for regieleki to be unbanned. The best I've seen is that its a spinner that beats gholdengo.

The main reason something is banned or not is if it's deemed broken....

As for being "NECESSARY" it's a pretty vague term that people aren't going to agree on anyway.

The basis of Regieleki being tested at an incorrect power level due to our lack of knowledge on its changes seems as good a reason as any.

 

[Heatranator]

The main reason something is banned or not is if it's deemed broken....

As for being "NECESSARY" it's a pretty vague term that people aren't going to agree on anyway.

The basis of Regieleki being tested at an incorrect power level due to our lack of knowledge on its changes seems as good a reason as any.

Man, read tiering policy. I literally took it straight out of there, so if you don't like it, go argue with that. Also, something can unhealthy, uncompetitive or broken. Those are reasonings for something being banned.

 

[TurquoiseLink]

It WAS broken and realistically is, at worst, very warping and unhealthy. Also “lots of people”? Please bring sources instead of vague statements. No one is “banning Pokémon to sculpt a metagame”.

The majority reasoning to keep Palafin banned was literally "it isn't broken but we want to reduce the number of offensive threats in the tier."

It's just different tiering philosophies is all, and we try to mesh them together as best we can.

I definitely agree though on the frustration that this thread almost never talks about the meta. I think part of the problem is that most of us just aren't that good players, so it's hard to analyse and innovate when you're playing a different game to the pros.

 

[ausma]

For future reference:

The moderation team has stated multiple times that we are not tolerating unban discussion posts at the moment, at least not without prior approval. It has historically drenched the thread in hypotheticals and often derails discussion in general, either due to how novel the concept is, or because most posts in question are misinformed or misguided regarding how a given unban would impact the metagame climate. The latter especially galvanizes a bunch of repeat posts that oversaturate the thread and drown out other attempts at metagame discussion about the metagame we actually have in front of us. It just has not really ever been good for the thread and is something better suited for live chat environments.

If you want to make an unban post that badly please contact us first, otherwise it is strictly prohibited.

 

[Finchinator]

Regieleki returning to OU would be a historically bad decision. The posts in favor of it ignore a myriad of evidence surrounding the Pokemon and tiering logistics. We have been down this road numerous times in this thread with Pokemon ranging from Lugia to Annihilape -- everyone comes out of the woodworks to defend Pokemon they think are cool, but the facts of the matter often evade initial dialogue, so let's get to it.

I've always seen it as a bit of a stain on the otherwise clean tiering of this generation- Regieleki, the Pokemon that was banned before it was even properly implemented on Showdown.

I am not sure if you were not around at the start of the generation or just forgot, but this is simply not true. We had quickbans and a fraction of the Tera test before full mechanical reveals earlier this generation that impacted things -- it got to the point where I had to post breaking news caliber updates a few times every week for the first month as relevant information flooded in.

Either tiering is even less "clean" than you state in your post where you conveniently ignore this or councils simply reserve the right to maintain judgement calls in the case of functionality changes. The latter is the case as history has shown. The latter is how we and other tiers operate.

It needs Tera. This is a really big deal

So does Espathra and, to a lesser extent, Volcarona, but they both got banned comfortably. Sure, it needs Tera to be as effective as it can be, but the looming threat of Tera has a huge strain on the game. You need to preserve your Ground type or potentially not exhaust your own Tera.

Even with Tera it is kinda just a Volt Switch bot (and intensely priority vulnerable).

This being said like it is a bad thing is so weird to me. The only downside is it relies on pivots as teammates, but the same can be said for a myriad of offensive Pokemon in SV. Being able to pivot to break things down that are generally bulky like SDef Garg, AV Crown, Kyu, etc. is a good thing -- it finds openings for teammates and they play off of each other, potentially generating openings for later in the game. Later in this post you claim this role of pivot is less strong in this metagame, which I also find a bit baffling as pivots are a staple of multiple archetypes and Regieleki is not exactly a HO centerpiece, which is the main style that is more stationary.

In the paragraph, you do mention some counterplay -- SDef Slowking-Galar and Ting Lu. The main issue is that there is a lack of depth when discussinc possible counterplay. We have already seen what happens to the metagame when specific crutches are given too much need and emphasis in team construction. There just is not enough durable counterplay out there and Ting Lu being the primary answer when we are already stretching it absurdly thin in the tier as is does not bode well.

This does not even get into the whole issue with retests that I have posted about dozens of time -- when is this happening? We have already been through how it cannot really overlap with official tournaments like SPL, WCoP, or SCL due to the ladder having big discrepancies from the tournament metagame and this is why we shut down a lot of other retest talk. There is no observable difference for this one either and we still have things in-metagame to prioritize either way.

 

[ausma]

I have received valid concern that there is no visible place to know whether unban posts were allowed or not, so I appended a disclaimer to the top of the OP for future reference. I apologize for any confusion or stress.

 

[Finchinator]

There has been a rule -- or so I thought it was a rule -- in this thread about avoiding discussions on retests. It is in place for the following reasons:

• Retests can only occur during specific periods of the tiering calendar as it requires the ladder's metagame differing from the actual metagame
• There is a higher bar to prompt a retest as it oftentimes involves undoing a prior decision and theory rather than the current metagame
• Discussion of retests have now snowballed into pages of misled theorymon and off-topic tangents as opposed to quality posts many times

The moderation team made this clear at a few points prior in this thread, but it was never specifically edited into the OP or the forum rules thread, which is pinned. I apologize for the rule not being in the OP or elsewhere on behalf of our moderation team. We cannot expect people on page 758 to have read or recalled things from page 720 or 640 or whatever other prior page -- things move too quickly to expect that. I appreciate this grievance being brought to our attention.

This is not a hard no to retests, but I have been and will continue to be honest: it is hard to see one during major tournaments like SPL due to ladder differing from official format during a retest and it is especially hard given that we are considering suspect(s) on Pokemon in the tier, which tend to get priority. If you have questions on this, PM me and I will happily discuss with you come Tuesday, when I will have a lot more free time.

---

Speaking of free time, my post earlier glossed over some big points on Regieleki due to IRL stuff. I want to put this discussion to bed for now.

Regieleki does not snowball like a Magearna, Espathra, Volcarona, etc. at all. Regieleki does not have the crazy natural bulk or durability of a Lugia or Giratina either. It is unique and challenging to identify in a traditional "oh, this is broken" mold, but that does not make it any less problematic. Pivots are able to work together nicely this generation, which we have seen ample evidence of through the generation of openings things like SlowTurn Corv or Gliscor provide alongside Chilly Reception from Slowking-Galar. There are other examples, too, but we already have a tier littered with relatively fragile, but fast and strong Pokemon, which lead me to believe Regieleki would not be some major outlier. It not being a set-up sweeper makes the Tera reliance feel weird for sure, but honestly the ultimate revenge killer with BoltBeam that pivots around like it does feels very disruptive for offense.

Sure, Pokemon like Ting Lu or particular Slowking-Galar should be able to check it and fit on multiple archetypes, but aside from these Pokemon, your methods of checking it are either archetype specific (Blissey/Clodsire on fat, Iron Treads on offense, Excadrill on Sand, etc.) or circumstantial (priority or trading Tera). I do not think Regieleki would make the tier unplayable, but I absolutely do think it would put yet another substantial strain on team construction. We already have enough priority patchwork forced and enough reasons for Ting Lu wars to run rampant, but making these things virtually mandatory or fully-fledged staples does not feel like it is conducive towards a balanced, versatile metagame.

This then begs the question: would it cross the line to broken with this strain and the limited pool of counterplay or not? I cannot say it as a matter of fact that it would, but I can say it is likely it would and it would in my personal opinion. That is about as strongly as I could come out against other Ubers, too -- it is all theory and thought as opposed to firm fact or something based on actual play. You could counter by saying "ok, why not retest it then?", but this can apply to anything in talks to be retested, so we tend to subscribe to the line-of-logic that something being retested either needs a lot of support or to have probable cause that dropping it would be ok to some degree. It is by no means a perfect science and it is one that has evolved alongside tiering, but it is not a coincidence that most generations only have 1-2 retests and 10+ regular suspects.

For me, I think there are multiple possible suspects to consider in the current metagame like Kyurem or Gliscor with people even recently chiming in on Roaring Moon. Meanwhile, I do not think there is much support for a retest to take priority when there is only a very brief window to fit it in after SPL. I will be happy to see if it sees an uptick in survey write-in mentions in the future and then can see us proceeding to more formal/official discussions of it, but I do not think we are at this point right now.

One final point is that yes, mechanics changed since it was banned. Same thing happened with some early QBs this generation and even mid-Tera test (before the vote itself). Much like we do not start every obvious Uber OU, we are not going to go back and turnover every single possible stone as it is a huge resource and time sink to do so. We act on a merrit and probable cause based spectrum with council (and playerbase) judgement superseeding necessity to try everything. This will continue moving forward if I had to guess.

Hopeful we can move forward from this topic to discussion of Pokemon in the metagame that could be suspect worthy (or not).

 

[Magcargo]

Getting back into playing the game after a small hiatus.

Bulk Up Spdef Cloak Corv is pretty awesome rn. Has a good match-up into a ton of shit, esp a lot of these pech teams we are seeing rn. Does solidly vs a number of Kyurem variants, several dnite, prim, Garg, Psy Noise users, Val, Etc. Its got the same appeal as spdef curse Dozo where if you get the bulk up off at the correct time, the opponent is completely screwed since Gambit won't be able to break it. Partner's like Gliscor, TIng-lu and Slowking-G help cover a lot of its bad match-ups too which is epic.

Corv in general feels like its soaring to new heights. Having such a solid MU spread against many of the big dogs like Gliscor, Kyurem, Valiant, Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gambit, some Zama, some Moon, and more is just too powerful rn. Sure its not perfect in EVERY one of these match-ups due to move set optimizations + Tera, as well as Helmet + Brave Bird chip being annoying, but it generally covers so much at once which is pretty nice in this meta. I think its also proving to be a lot more versatile than we initially thought, with all these different sets like the Spite set, Sdef bulk, the standard ID sets, and a few others popping up here and there.

 

[tommytt22]

Getting back into playing the game after a small hiatus.

Bulk Up Spdef Cloak Corv is pretty awesome rn. Has a good match-up into a ton of shit, esp a lot of these pech teams we are seeing rn. Does solidly vs a number of Kyurem variants, several dnite, prim, Garg, Psy Noise users, Val, Etc. Its got the same appeal as spdef curse Dozo where if you get the bulk up off at the correct time, the opponent is completely screwed since Gambit won't be able to break it. Partner's like Gliscor, TIng-lu and Slowking-G help cover a lot of its bad match-ups too which is epic.

Corv in general feels like its soaring to new heights. Having such a solid MU spread against many of the big dogs like Gliscor, Kyurem, Valiant, Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gambit, some Zama, some Moon, and more is just too powerful rn. Sure its not perfect in EVERY one of these match-ups due to move set optimizations + Tera, as well as Helmet + Brave Bird chip being annoying, but it generally covers so much at once which is pretty nice in this meta. I think its also proving to be a lot more versatile than we initially thought, with all these different sets like the Spite set, Sdef bulk, the standard ID sets, and a few others popping up here and there.

Do you prefer pressure or mirror armour? Obviously with cloak you won't get the random drops that mirror armour is handy for, but for a setup Pokemon you're unlikely to be pp stalling anything either

 

[Finchinator]

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

 

[Quackborg]

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

I feel like fast scor has become so established for sd, with spd being what you want when you feel like hazard setting, and physdef for pretty much just stall. I dont think any of them are super broken rn tho even with the variations

 

[658Greninja]

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

So glad to get some quality meta talk.

Anyways, to answer this question.

SD Gliscor is and always has been a problem for Balances. Its just that SV OU players have a habit of complaining about a mon, overprepping it and concluding that its not broken, then forgetting it exists, thus not prepping for it as much, and then that mon comes back, refreshing the cycle of ban/don’t ban.

It is surprising to hear complaints in 2025 though. Corv usage is at an all time high, Weavile is picking up in popularity, Zama + Waterpon are good at pressuring SD Gliscor structures, and CC Tusk is a thing popping up to deal with Ting-Lu.

But also, there’s a popular team built by hellom or at least I think was built on him, that slaps SD Gliscor on a Veil team. Gliscor’s natural bulk fits nicely into this archetype and it changes the way Gliscor is ran, rather than all SD Gliscor structures being the exact same, (i.e. Waterpon food)

Personally a huge fan of Knock/EQ over Facade. SD Gliscor often have to deal with Gambit getting a free SD up, so you have to overcompensate your team for Gambit. But EQ prevents you from being fodder while also being better vs stuff like Pecha, Scizor, Barb Clef, Booster Moth, Tank Chomp, etc.

I’m also interested in what people think of Dragonite rn. I’m one of those Dnite S- rank believers cause its one of the most difficult mons to read, even moreso than Kyurem. Not that its broken, but its very splashable and versatile.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

The SD/Knock set is the one I personally take issue with thus far. Spikes/Toxic sets feel easy to play around, but the main issue I have with Gliscor (much like some other threats) is that you really can't accurately predict what it might do on some teams. I've been getting higher up on the ladder (1600 range cuz i'm tryina play more to improve vs meme) and it feels like there's a highly weird guessing game of "is this Gliscor going to set up or click protect and spike?"

The wrong guess can be disasterous, as using protect on the wrong turn means you either give it a free spike, swords dance, or similar. Even just seeing knock sometimes isn't enough to let you know what's doing due to the sheer utility they often use it for on either set. IMO, as someone that doesn't use a massive ton of speed demons on every team it feels terrible to see that stupid swords circle it when you try to scout its intentions.

Now of course there are ways to pay around this; Zama with restochesto, bulky poison types, etc. But the fact it run away with games when you're presuming its utility or spikes feels bad in a way that's not very engaging. Especially as Gliscor will usually have the raw advantage in most scenarios.

 

[Huge Zorse]

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

I think this mon warrants a suspect. I took a break from playing OU around the Gouging suspect, and came back a month ago to find that, surprisingly, Gliscor is by far the mon that feels the most cheap in this meta. Admittedly i'm not a tourney player, i sit in the 17s-low 18s, but from my perspective, the SD/knock/tect set is pretty overwhelming at times. It's possible to pressure and blow past, but it's really capable of snowballing, and just absolutely hard walling 5 mons on a team. And it's weird in that it is really good in pretty much any non-HO build? I don't think it's nearly as broken as some of the stuff from earlier this gen, but it does feel like a problem to me.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Its just that SV OU players have a habit of complaining about a mon, overprepping it and concluding that its not broken, then forgetting it exists, thus not prepping for it as much, and then that mon comes back, refreshing the cycle of ban/don’t ban.

Sorry for double posting but you brought up some points I feel like sum up my issues with the weird back and forth we have.

I find the contentious nature of people either naturally playing a style, or overpreparing for Really Fucking Frustrating or difficult to handle mons and then going "yeah but its fine tho" to be the worst parts of how a lot of suspects have gone. Even the Gouging Fire suspect--A mon that was so hilariously overtuned that I found it impossible to consider to be anything but the easiest ban in the world. Same with Bloodmoon, actually.

I feel like too many people get trapped in their bubble of team play/style that may naturally give a huge advantage vs these contentious mons here; It's fine insofar if they do not view it as problematic due to it (opinions etc) but I feel like it really undersells the scope of thinking required in trying to sus out if a mon is a issue enough to not only your style of play, but others as well.

Especially as some of these demons are not 'outwardly' broken when you're tacking 2 to 3 checks on a team ala K*ng G*mbit and so on. We saw this during Palafin as well, "Just stack dragons and ogerpon!" which was leading to a highly volatile set of conditions where Raging Bolt was smothering the ladder for a bit lol.

I’m also interested in what people think of Dragonite rn. I’m one of those Dnite S- rank believers cause its one of the most difficult mons to read, even moreso than Kyurem. Not that its broken, but its very splashable and versatile.

Dnite continues to be one of those things that if you don't prepare for you either lose to or really wish you had scouted before hand.

 

[befi]

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

While I don't feel like Gliscor is broken offensively per se, I think that what it does to the tier may be considered unhealthy and warrants a suspect. It's not that the SD sets are un-wallable, its that they contain a devastating combination of damage output, bulk, its typing, and continuous healing. It's been said many times before, but this combination of traits, in tandem with its typing and the ability to tera, means that Gliscor can almost entirely invalidate certain playstyles and team structures, particularly bulkier builds. Indeed, all Gliscor sets can be beaten by well constructed hyper-offense and offense teams, but the fact that Gliscor has the ability to invalidate entire playstyles makes it arguably broken or worthy of another suspect at the very least. If you build a balance team, you pretty much NEED to have some sort of fast encore, a strong offensive ice or water type (which are rarely run on balance other than Weavile or Samurott), or an IDef Corv or else you can just lose to an SD Gliscor at preview. Yes, metas change and it's not that all playstyles have to be equally viable, but to have certain playstyles be completely unviable seems unhealthy for a metagame (it's worth noting that Gliscor is not the only reason why balance is struggling so much, but it is arguably its biggest roadblock).

It is also clear that the SD sets are the most dangerous and unhealthy sets that Gliscor runs. Defensive sets are very annoying, but they can typically be slowly handled even by balance teams, so long as they are well-constructed. For example, defensive Gliscor cannot touch any Corviknight, allowing you to easily pivot on it, and it also loses to SD Gliscor in return. It is precisely the fact that Gliscor is so bulky and has automatic chip healing while simultaneously being able to output such offensive pressure which makes Gliscor such a menace.

There are also some implied but not-as-often vocalized aspects to Gliscor that make it so potent, especially against balance, that I would like to mention. I think these points are best for people questioning what makes Gliscor so strong:
1) Hazard indifference: It is immune to spikes and shrugs off rocks damage. This just allows it to enter the field so easily without worrying about hazards whatsoever.
2) Limitless tera options: Not only is its base typing already one of the best in the game, meaning that it doesn't even need to tera to be so dangerous, but it does appreciate tera, whether it be to flip a matchup, become just an overall solid defensive type, or to boost its damage. I have seen Normal, Water, Fairy, Dragon, Ghost, Dark, Steel, and even Grass teras on the ladder, and I honestly cannot say that any of them are necessarily bad options. This myriad of possible typings only makes it harder to predict and deal with.
3) Knock Off absorber: It is arguably the best Knock Off absorber in the game, perhaps second to only Clefable. This is just an amazing trait that allows Gliscor to switch into an oncoming Knock Off and not mind losing its item at all (assuming it's already been poisoned, of course). Once again, Gliscor is incredibly easy to get onto the field and do what it does.
4) Status immunity: you can't even use status to cripple it, and hex bounces off of this thing (unless it is NP+Ghold or Specs Hex Dragapult, but both of those lose to tera normal)
5) Knock Off user: Gliscor is also one of the best Knock Off users in the game. Not only does it pair so well with Facade because it can hit ghosts, but Knock Off on Gliscor is so perfect because it doesn't mind trading Knock Offs with the opponent and because of the way that hazard stack works, the team structure that SD Gliscor probably works best on. Hazard stack teams are most effective when they don't mind hazards going up on their own side of the field either, and this is typically remedied by have boots-spam. Not only does Gliscor easily Knock Off the opposing mons' items, allowing its teammates hazard stack to become more effective, but it also doesn't mind getting knocked off at all either, as discussed above. This means that against an opposing hazard stack or balance team, Gliscor can always come in on an incoming Knock Off trying to remove a teammates' boots before using its own Knock Off to an asymmetric effect, given the fact that you are pairing your Gliscor with hazards (It's funny, it often feels like the only real way to beat a Gliscor is with your own Gliscor).

Although this post seems like I am adamantly against Gliscor's presence in the tier, I am still on the fence regarding a ban or not, and think that another suspect is due. I have alternative reasons why I don't think that Gliscor is banworthy, including but not limited to the fact that Gliscor is ultimately not an un-wallable machine that can win any given match like some other banned mons are

 

[Bold School]

While I don't feel like Gliscor is broken offensively per se, I think that what it does to the tier may be considered unhealthy and warrants a suspect.

We already did that, though. What exactly changed between the last suspect and now?

At least with Kyurem situation, you have had very close votes, a lot of controversy, and an experience of the meta without it. While I think the Zap/King/Lu arguments were extremely overstated, the last metagame that did have a Gliscor ban wasn't well recieved. Obviously, that was awhile ago and the current metagame is different. But there is more reason to eventually suspect Kyurem for a third time than Gliscor.

 

[Eeveeto]

^To the above guy, Gliscor in the last Suspect got over 50% votes for a Ban (to be fair, it was a lot more than I anticipated), which is comparable to Kyurem's Ban percentage. Also, in my opinion (and I think many will agree with me on this one thing), Kyurem's eventual unban influenced Gliscor's outcome. I do agree that Kyurem, just as Gliscor is unhealthy, but both Bans would influence the other's Ban, although for very different reasons (Gliscor without Kyurem is obviously better, while some players think Kyurem is needed to keep in check Gliscor, Waterpon and Raging Bolt, among others).

I still stand by (Gholdengo, but its not realistic) > Waterpon > Gliscor > Bolt > Kyurem > Rest in terms of things that should be gone from the meta.

 

[Magcargo]

Do you prefer pressure or mirror armour? Obviously with cloak you won't get the random drops that mirror armour is handy for, but for a setup Pokemon you're unlikely to be pp stalling anything either

I think mirror Armor has its appeal but it may be better to just not run cloak then over something more useful (like Leftovers).

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

SD can be busted if built well but the issue is that building it correctly is hard af. Very difficult to cover all the big threats to an SD Scor team like other SD Scor, Kyurem, Darkrai, etc. all at once while also providing it with the support it needs to be good like spikes, Rocks, etc. I also do not like how scor itself isn't too good at checking anything really, so it feels like you need more slots to check the stuff that you would like running it for (i.e. Raging Bolt, Iron Moth, Great Tusk, etc.). It's tera is pretty versatile at least - all of Fairy, Dragon, Ghost, Normal, and Water have solid applications in the metagame.

The fast SD Scor sets might be better, but they feel horrible to use since it just feels like it doesn't have the bulk to set up on anything. I have a very poor handle on using this set & the teams that run it haven't felt the best.

I am noticing that a lot of tourney teams that run scor are deviating from this standard build, sometimes forgoing Spikes or Rocks on the build + running some interesting options like Iron Treads, Deo-S, etc. This approach is quite interesting, but also quite different from how I normally use or build SD Scor (where I usually run it with mons like Ting-Lu, Skarm, Corv, Weavile, Clefable, etc.). Perhaps this approach is better to building a SD Scor team and bringing out its talents rn.

 

[Avira]

Getting back into playing the game after a small hiatus.

Bulk Up Spdef Cloak Corv is pretty awesome rn. Has a good match-up into a ton of shit, esp a lot of these pech teams we are seeing rn. Does solidly vs a number of Kyurem variants, several dnite, prim, Garg, Psy Noise users, Val, Etc. Its got the same appeal as spdef curse Dozo where if you get the bulk up off at the correct time, the opponent is completely screwed since Gambit won't be able to break it. Partner's like Gliscor, TIng-lu and Slowking-G help cover a lot of its bad match-ups too which is epic.

Corv in general feels like its soaring to new heights. Having such a solid MU spread against many of the big dogs like Gliscor, Kyurem, Valiant, Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gambit, some Zama, some Moon, and more is just too powerful rn. Sure its not perfect in EVERY one of these match-ups due to move set optimizations + Tera, as well as Helmet + Brave Bird chip being annoying, but it generally covers so much at once which is pretty nice in this meta. I think its also proving to be a lot more versatile than we initially thought, with all these different sets like the Spite set, Sdef bulk, the standard ID sets, and a few others popping up here and there.

I like that you put a spotlight on Covert Cloak. I know some people think it has no use outside of checking Garganacl, but that's just not true. As you demonstrated with this post, SpDef Covert Cloak Bulk Up Corv definitely has a niche in beating a few special attackers that aren't using Choice Specs to boost their power, such as Kyurem (can't freeze you), Primarina (can't stop you from healing with Psychic Noise, and Nuzzle Hatterene while still being a decent answer to some physical attackers if you play proactively enough.

 

[befi]

I think mirror Armor has its appeal but it may be better to just not run cloak then over something more useful (like Leftovers).

SD can be busted if built well but the issue is that building it correctly is hard af. Very difficult to cover all the big threats to an SD Scor team like other SD Scor, Kyurem, Darkrai, etc. all at once while also providing it with the support it needs to be good like spikes, Rocks, etc. I also do not like how scor itself isn't too good at checking anything really, so it feels like you need more slots to check the stuff that you would like running it for (i.e. Raging Bolt, Iron Moth, Great Tusk, etc.). It's tera is pretty versatile at least - all of Fairy, Dragon, Ghost, Normal, and Water have solid applications in the metagame.

The fast SD Scor sets might be better, but they feel horrible to use since it just feels like it doesn't have the bulk to set up on anything. I have a very poor handle on using this set & the teams that run it haven't felt the best.

I am noticing that a lot of tourney teams that run scor are deviating from this standard build, sometimes forgoing Spikes or Rocks on the build + running some interesting options like Iron Treads, Deo-S, etc. This approach is quite interesting, but also quite different from how I normally use or build SD Scor (where I usually run it with mons like Ting-Lu, Skarm, Corv, Weavile, Clefable, etc.). Perhaps this approach is better to building a SD Scor team and bringing out its talents rn.

I don't think that this take adequately appreciates Gliscor's bulk. Yeah, it doesn't check or wall super strong offensive threats, but it tears apart balance and bulky builds like nobody's business. Balance teams without Weavile, Samurott, or IDef Corviknight lose to SD Gliscor paired with hazards on preview, and I think it is not good or healthy for a metagame to have a completely unviable playstyle. Again, Gliscor isn't the only thing preventing balance from being good this generation, but a Gliscor ban would make balance better without hurting any other playstyles significantly (stall gets hurt the most, but stall can be viable with Gliscor) and therefore the tier better as a whole