if i had to guess, once this whole thing is over there will be some sort of shareholder-meeting-type deal where all the people who donated likes to the suspect pool will get to vote on what gets suspected, and their votes will be weighted by how much they spent. if this is how it works, that means the suspect is going to be either palafin or tera—i personally want gambit, but the palafin faction has over 300,000 likes and the tera faction has upwards of half a million (if they all actually show up and respond). so we can kinda already guess it's gonna be one of two things, unless i'm wrong about how the suspect gets decided
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [PALAFIN RETEST]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Should all the people who just went "towards OU suspect" basically pick one of the camps definitively then?
Way late to Rillaboom posting, but consider the following:
Rillaboom @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass/Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn/ Knock off
What if boosted Wood Hammers didn't cause Rillaboom to kill itself or make contact with the opponent?
....That's it. That's the whole crux of this set
I thought it up five minutes after I got off from work.
Rillaboom @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass/Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn/ Knock off
What if boosted Wood Hammers didn't cause Rillaboom to kill itself or make contact with the opponent?
....That's it. That's the whole crux of this set
I thought it up five minutes after I got off from work.
I had been under the impression the Tera suspect already won, so I just gambled all my points. Now we keep seeing the Palafin votes getting pushed. Is the problem just that the voters need to confirm? I feel way out of the loop.
A majority of the people who were pinged have not confirmed anything so until enough confirm to get 500k then it's not really going to go anywhere.
Most of the people who purportedly supported a Tera resuspect are either banned or didn't confirm their intent to actually devote their points to that suspect test. The odds are that a Tera suspect is just outright not happening, and I may be wrong about this, but I can even see the OU Council vetoing it even if the support was there due to previous surveys showing a lack of support for it. So, yes, you most likely wasted your reacts to gambling.
Its not like its an instant Terastalization ban for what its worth.
Speaking of for what things are worth, I believe the head moderator stopped at the end of Page 8 for the day, so if you want to fix how you allocate points, you more than likely have the time to do so. You'd know your points have been spent if you see that your reaction score has been reduced.
Finchinator also indicated that it had to be something that wouldn't be a waste of time, and based on the last OU tiering survey in which there was a Tera question, I believe a Tera resuspect would be a waste of time, so it'd fall under that umbrella. 25% wanting action from the qualified pool of survey takers is too thin of a slice of players whose decisions contribute to tiering, so a Tera suspect would most likely be a non-starter.
I don't think likely to fail is the same thing as a waste of time. A tera suspect would be a legitimate discussion, and low, but not zero, odds of passing.
The example given was an obvious troll suspect like Scream Tail or something.
The example given was an obvious troll suspect like Scream Tail or something.
I had nothing else I wanted to buy with my current points. Gambling is still the most optimal buy for me.
Thank you. I had thought of this, but I don't wish to change my decision. It feels bad spending on temporary things. Nothing permanent I might want was affordable for me. The amount I have wouldn't likely wouldn't impact the Tera suspect thing enough.
You could have saved for the 2025 edition, as this Likeshop will probably return next year as it seems like it'll be a popular event.
That's already the goal. The gambling will either help or get me sympathy likes. Plus, it livens things up. Based on the amount I have, there appears to be about a 75% chance to not be totally screwed. It's a calculated risk with decent enough odds for something that isn't real money.
Besides, my current amount isn't really that difficult to get. I never actively farmed for likes because that seemed lame. Who would have guessed they would have actual value in anything? Now that we know, we can be strategic about it in the future.
wait what??? that can't be right, ut's been putting all suspect likes in a single pool labeled "ou suspect" without differentiating them and i swear finch just said earlier today that it's all going into the same pool. am i going insane
An Essay on the Tragedy of Flutter Mane
Flutter Mane is known as one of the first bans in SV OU alongside Houndstone. Most people agreed that it was broken and despite the fact that it was later found out that proto/quark boosts to any stat other than speed was 30% instead of 50%, nobody decided to retest flutter into the tier. However, I believe this was a big misdemeanour and should be rectified immediately. In this essay today, I will be outlining why flutter mane is balanced and should be allowed to come back to OU.
Firstly, due to the already mentioned wrong implementation photosynthesis and quark drive boosts, flutter mane actually hits a lot less hard then it did when it was banned. Although special attack booster energy sets were unpopular when it released, the more common set of specs flutter mane would be a lot less common due to locking itself into its stab moves being undesirable. For example, specs flutter mane is doing max 48% to offensive ghold, which can always OHKO it from full. Defensive ghold takes 40% max, thus being able to easily recover off the damage while still being able to OHKO flutter. For a mon which is touted to be “the easiest ban in OU history”, this is pathetic numbers. This would force it into using booster sets a lot more for additional power or be using a calm mind set. These are exploitable in their own right. Booster special attack variants hit a lot less hard, with offensive gambit taking moonblast from full even with a spike down and ko’ing it back from full. The calm mind set has to set up first in order to get to the point where it threatens things, allowing the opponent to reposition themselves into something that can threaten it out. Something like cb rillaboom is usually not wanting to switch into a boosted flutter, but is able to easily threaten it out. Without the speed boost, flutter is a lot less threatening as zama and pult naturally outspeed it and ohko with heavy slam and specs shadow ball respectively, while any booster or scarf mon easily outspeeds it. As can be seen, due to its lackluster damage, flutter mane is able to be outplayed decently easily and threatened out, where it is a lot less threatening to a team after that.
Now, I’d like to outline what mons can either switch in to flutter mane and ko it, or can revenge kill it if they cannot switch in.
By far the best common switch in to flutter mane, clodsire not only ignores the boosts from flutter, but can even take all of its common coverage moves. Psyshock only does 68% max to clodsire, allowing it to get off a toxic or e-quake, which 2hit kos flutter. If it is not running psyshock, then clodsire walls it forever. Flutter mane can't even try to boost past it due to unaware.
Although blissey is relegated to stall, blissey is an excellent switch in to flutter mane. It takes negligent damage from anything, including psyshock, which is never a 3hit ko, thus meaning blissey can soft boil off the damage. From here, blissey can t-wave the flutter and then use shadow ball, which is a 4hit ko. You can even tera dark if you are concerned about psyshock.
Dragapult cannot switch into flutter, but either after it has switched out if it has used booster speed or it can simply outspeed if its booster special attack. Specs dragapult shadow ball is an easy ohko into flutter mane unless it gets a calm mind boost up. However, the more common set of boots pivot can use thunder wave on flutter in order to render it completely useless. Flutter is also 2hit ko'd by pult hex without a status and OHKO'd with a status. Likewise, +1 special defense flutter is 2hit ko'd by boosted hex, showing that the mane doesn't do much in protecting it from these attacks.
Rillaboom is a great check to flutter mane, with it being able to take any hit from it and revenge kill it with a choice band grassy glide, which is a clean ko. If flutter teras, they still are taking 60% from gg and thus are 2hit ko'd.
Heatran is a great counter to flutter mane. Offensive heatran easily takes any one of flutter manes hits (at most it can do 46%) and ohko's it back with heavy slam. Specially defensive heatran takes 29% max and heavy slam is still doing 136% minimum, so followed by a earth power flutter will always die.
Glowking once again shows why its a top tier mon. Depsite having a weakness to shadow ball, glowking can always take one and fire off a t-wave to cripple flutter. It can also 3hit ko flutter with sludge bomb. AV Glowking can always take 2 shadow balls and ko it back with 2 psyshock's.
Garg is a great counter to flutter, as it takes max 37% from flutter moonblast and can salt cure it, putting it on a timer while still 3hit ko'ing flutter. It can recover off any damage it takes and increase the salt cure chip with protect.
Sp.defense corv is probably one of the best counters to flutter due to recovery and taking any hit. Mystical fire does max 40% to corv, while an iron head in return most likely ohko's flutter. If you want to use brave bird, that's still a clean 2hit ko.
Kingambit can take any hit from flutter and revenge kill it with sucker punch, which with no boosts form SO or SD, still is a clean OHKO by even bulky variants.
Ting lu cannot take on flutter long term, but it can phaze it out and deal big damage to it. Moonblast is a 3hit ko, and ting lu can use whirlwind to remove flutters proto boost. If you want to deal more directly with flutter, e-quake is doing 75% min for the standard set, and straight up OHKO'ing for more offensive variants.
Iron treads has fallen off, but it can be a great mon to check flutter. Specially defensive treads is never 2hit ko'd by flutter mane, as even mystical fire doesn't 2hit ko it. In return, treads can OHKO with iron head or deal massive chip with e-quake if you decide to drop iron head.
Despite not being able to switch into flutter and being outsped if its a booster speed variant, zamazenta can wallop flutter for big damage with heavy slam which is a clean OHKO.And these are just the mons that can reliably take on flutter mane, there are others such as
and 
which can beat it if they choose to use tera. Overall, flutter mane has a lot more checks and counters than first perceived. If we dip into the lower tiers for mons such as 
and 
, there are even more than anyone would have thought of.Now, I’d like to show how flutter mane is very similar to other OU mons that we also have in the tier.
Depsite flutter mane being faster than darkrai, darkrai is a lot more threatening. This is due to it having access to nasty plot, which makes it a much more devestating sweeper in the tier. It also has much higher bulk on the physical side than flutter. Yes, it has worse special bulk, but its not by much. The difference in special bulk is perhaps taking 10% more from special hits, while on the physical side flutter is taking 40% more damage. Dakrai and flutter mane are both similar mons that have differences that while meaningful, do come at the cost of causing them to lack in a significant area.
Iron Valiant is seen as one of the best booster mons in the game, and flutter mane is on par with it but does not outclass it. For one, flutter mane cannot choose between going physical or special, which limits its set variety a lot, making it much more predictable. This is one of valiants biggest selling points that is simply not able to be done. Secondly, flutter mane has a lot less defensive utility it can bring to the table. Depsite its poor defenses, valiant can oftentimes switch into many attacks due to the resistances its type provides, being 4x resistant to dark and having other useful resistances. Flutter mane meanwhile, has a lot less defensive utility. It is immune to normal, which is very uncommon outside of facade gliscor and ursaluna, both of which destroy it with their other stab moves, and 4x resistant to bug, which outside of u-turn, a move in which the opponent can bring in a reveng killer to take out flutter, is not useful. This just leaves the fighting and dragon immunities, which are great, but those typings while threatened by flutter, still threaten it back for big damage. This makes its set up opportunities a lot more strict. Finally, flutter mane doesn't have encore, which is a big thing as valiant typically uses it to punish various mons and to get more set up opportunities.
Iron moth has risen up after its present variant was axed from the tier, but it fills a similar role as flutter in acting as a fast proto user with snowballing potential. Iron moth doesn't even have to click a non damaging move in order to boost, by attacking with its stab move it can passively increase its special attack. Of course, this can be unreliable, but moth has enough initial power to get past its checks. Compare that to flutter, and moth is a sidegrade which doesn't have to waste a moveslot to boost but can be unreliable.
Although enamorus has fallen off, it still is something that you do have to accout for. Enam has the same special attack stat as flutter mane, but has the added bonus of being able to go physical or special if wanted, or mixed. With contrary and superpower, enamorus can boost itself up while still attacking. This also makes it better against blissey as it hits blissey hard with continued superpowers that cannot be shrugged off.Finally, flutter mane cannot fit all of the coverage it needs into its moveset. This is especially the case for the calm mind set, as normal flutter already has to choose between moonblast, shadow ball, mystical fire, psyshock and power gem, so picking up calm mind in order to sweep means it is losing out on important coverage. For a mon as frail as flutter mane, this is a big thing to lose. This makes it much easier to play around as by identifying which coverage move it has, flutter mane can be walled by a lot of mons.
Overall, flutter mane is nowhere close to broken in OU and should be immediately retested. This was a massive failure by the council and I hope they rectify this mistake immediately. Honestly, eviolite misdreavous is bulkier than flutter mane and I should be using it instead of flutter mane.
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My favorite archetype in this tier is Grassy Terrain. I think most people tend not to think very much about it hugely because it's far more abstract and usually more subtle compared to most other compositions; for instance, weather is a fairly obvious archetype that leans hard into one kind of gameplan (offense). Grassy Terrain imo is one of the most interesting archetypes because it has the rare distinction of being an archetype that uses a set strategy, but can be executed across many different playstyles: offense, balance, and even fat. It’s truly ludicrous how much weakening Earthquake, juicing Grass-type moves, and passive recovery can take some Pokemon.
Recently, I was speaking with some OU players about the archetype and jokingly mentioned making a tier list ranking each option that I felt was viable on the archetype (either as an abuser or an enabler). Today, I decided to actually do that, since I’ve built using Grassy Terrain a little too much.
I believe the archetype as a whole has so much room to be explored. I would encourage you all try it out for yourself since there are truly so many interesting and crazy interactions that Grassy Terrain can enable, making it (in my opinion) the most rewarding archetype when it comes to creativity and ingenuity. If you want to talk about and explore the endless possibilities in a more dedicated space, join the newly sprouted Grassycord!
Recently, I was speaking with some OU players about the archetype and jokingly mentioned making a tier list ranking each option that I felt was viable on the archetype (either as an abuser or an enabler). Today, I decided to actually do that, since I’ve built using Grassy Terrain a little too much.
I believe the archetype as a whole has so much room to be explored. I would encourage you all try it out for yourself since there are truly so many interesting and crazy interactions that Grassy Terrain can enable, making it (in my opinion) the most rewarding archetype when it comes to creativity and ingenuity. If you want to talk about and explore the endless possibilities in a more dedicated space, join the newly sprouted Grassycord!
Doing my part, Dolphinbros o7
i don't think this is an annual thing, nor should it be. it should be something that happens every few years. if it's held regularly, it cheapens the event and makes the prizes less special, and we'll see a massive uptick in react farming every november or thereabouts as people prepare for it. i think "once per gen" is a good frequency for these
Since it's going to be a "for fun" Suspect, what about playing a suspect by removing the element during the test period?
Many of us would have preferred Gholdengo to be a suspect instead of Gliscor in DLC1. And playing SV OU without Gholdengo for two weeks would put an end to a lot of controversy by removing one of the cyclical issues that make you feel deja vu reading this thread.
If Suspects have mostly failed to reach 60% and change the status quo, an alternative way forward would be to address and eliminate potential controversy once and for all.
If Terastal Ban/DnB and Palafin is satisfactory regardless of Unban/Keep Ubers, why stop it? Imagine never having to read about Lugia or Solgaleo again for the rest of the generation. If we've reached a point where gathering 500k likes to make a suspect has become acceptable, I think more than just 1 chosen one should have a Suspect.
I know this will hardly get the support it needs and will disrupt the tournament schedule, but venting is free. Have a good day.
Many of us would have preferred Gholdengo to be a suspect instead of Gliscor in DLC1. And playing SV OU without Gholdengo for two weeks would put an end to a lot of controversy by removing one of the cyclical issues that make you feel deja vu reading this thread.
If Suspects have mostly failed to reach 60% and change the status quo, an alternative way forward would be to address and eliminate potential controversy once and for all.
If Terastal Ban/DnB and Palafin is satisfactory regardless of Unban/Keep Ubers, why stop it? Imagine never having to read about Lugia or Solgaleo again for the rest of the generation. If we've reached a point where gathering 500k likes to make a suspect has become acceptable, I think more than just 1 chosen one should have a Suspect.
I know this will hardly get the support it needs and will disrupt the tournament schedule, but venting is free. Have a good day.
If we decide to unban Palafin, I believe there is one more Pokémon that can be unbanned without causing any harm at all. This Pokémon has a miserable attack stat of 150 which is 10 points lower then palafin-hero. Even rampardos, a Pokémon in the ZU tier has a higher attack stat then this pathetic Pokémon.
The speed stat of this Pokémon is 90. That is obviously terrible in a fast format like SV OU. Countless Pokémon, with or without booster energy are able to outspeed this weakling.
I'm of course talking about Zekrom.
Zekrom also has one of the worst types: Electric. Gliscor, great tusk, iron treads and landorus are all really common metagame stables. They're all completely immune to this STAB type of Zekrom. Now of course, Zekrom has a second STAB type. Dragon used to be one of the strongest types in the game. But Pokémon X and Y introduced the fairy type. This type is completely immune to the dragon type and can hit back with super effective hits.
Overall, Zekrom is one of the worst Pokémon I've ever seen. I believe it'd be totally fine in the overused tier.
The speed stat of this Pokémon is 90. That is obviously terrible in a fast format like SV OU. Countless Pokémon, with or without booster energy are able to outspeed this weakling.
I'm of course talking about Zekrom.
Zekrom also has one of the worst types: Electric. Gliscor, great tusk, iron treads and landorus are all really common metagame stables. They're all completely immune to this STAB type of Zekrom. Now of course, Zekrom has a second STAB type. Dragon used to be one of the strongest types in the game. But Pokémon X and Y introduced the fairy type. This type is completely immune to the dragon type and can hit back with super effective hits.
Overall, Zekrom is one of the worst Pokémon I've ever seen. I believe it'd be totally fine in the overused tier.
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+2 252 Atk Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 345-406 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wait... he's garbage...
The speed stat is not relevant because it learns dragon dance, and it has an amazing typing.
Also, it's way bulkier than Palafin, which literally gets obliterated by grassy glide or any other grass pokemon.
Even though I like zekrom a lot, I think he would be an even better Raging Bolt... and we all know what a menace that mon is.