Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Today i bring you to ponder this question, how would we hypothetically play OU if the water and steel types were banned and restricted to ZU and any lower tiers
 
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Welcome to mars said:
Today i bring you to ponder this question, how would we hypothetically play OU if the water and steel types were banned and restricted to ZU and any lower tiers
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Half my team will have tera water and the other half will be tera steel. Jokes aside, we actually see a similar thing to this idea with Fairy-types where there's not many of them (Valiant, Clef, Enam, Primarina) but you will see Tera Fairy on a lot of things like Gambit and Ghold to make up for not having one, or just being a plain good typing.
 
TPP said:
Half my team will have tera water and the other half will be tera steel. Jokes aside, we actually see a similar thing to this idea with Fairy-types where there's not many of them (Valiant, Clef, Enam, Primarina) but you will see Tera Fairy on a lot of things like Gambit and Ghold to make up for not having one, or just being a plain good typing.
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Oh i’m sorry, i specifically meant how would we hypothetically play OU if the water and steel types were banned and restricted to ZU and any lower tiers, not just the pokemon, the entire type, full stop with no comma
 
Welcome to mars said:
Today i bring you to ponder this question, how would we hypothetically play OU if the water and steel types were banned and restricted to ZU and any lower tiers
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Welcome to mars said:
Oh i’m sorry, i specifically meant how would we hypothetically play OU if the water and steel types were banned and restricted to ZU and any lower tiers, not just the pokemon, the entire type, full stop with no comma
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The only Ice resists left would be Fire and Ice types. Ice type attackers + rocks would break the entire tier. So would Cornerstone, I'd imagine. A scenario where Kyurem stays seems increasingly difficult to justify due to an increased lack of resistances.

Stall would also lose Dozo, which is crazy. I'm not a stall expert, so I won't make a claim that stall would be dead. Many stall players are quite resourceful. It would be a huge loss nonetheless. Same for Alomomola on a lot of bulky balance structures.

Toxic would be stronger without one of the main immunities to it. T-spikes would still be limited by Poison types such as Glowking and Pecharunt. But Dark and/or Ground type attackers might be more threatening on T-spike teams due to the lack of Gambit and the metal birds.

Roaring Moon would become even crazier without steel types to resist Acrobatics or Dragon STAB, but people would likely pretend not to notice.

Now let's talk about weather. Rain is dead without setters and many of the abusers being yeeted out of the tier. Sun gets a pretty interesting buff. Fire spam in the Sun would be much harder to stop as one of the main resistances in Water types are gone. Heatran is very niche, but that is also gone. This leaves just Dragon and Rock types as resists. Sun can actually sort of make up for the loss of Walking Wake with Grass types, which only really need to worry about Dragon types. We might see an uptick in Flash Fire mons just to fill the void.

Tyranitar would likely see a rise in importance. Not necesarily Sand teams since Excadrill is gone. But Tyranitar itself seems pretty decent in this scenario. The combination of Sun teams getting better and balance needing to deal with special attackers favors it. Also, Water and Steel were two types that were supereffective against Tyranitar. Not needing to worry about 2 of its 7 weaknesses is a pretty big deal. I could see Ttar and Sini being quite the defensive core.

Hamurott is a huge loss for hazard stack. Without it, teams can go back to fast Taunt and Magic Bounce to consistently deny hazards. The only question is if Kleavor gets a boost, which I'll get into in a bit. For Webs, Ribombee is fine. I know some people have stated they prefer Araquanid, which is now gone. Webs itself would still be alive and well. Galvantula is also maybe a potential lead option to consider.

Hazards removal be close the same, though. Ghold and Corv being gone more or less cancels out as far as removal. Bulky spinblockers like Sinsistcha and maybe Air balloon Pecharunt would take Ghold's place.

The main difference is Rocks would increase in importance. Steel types are one of only 3 resistances to SR. Their presence is often necessary in teams that aren't boots reliant. Also, the sudden lack of Ice resists which aren't Rock weak would make them rise enormously in importance. Most rocks setters are fine. But Kleavor being OU level would give a similar problem that Hamurott does now. It doesn't help that Kleavor just lost 2 of its 3 weaknesses besides maybe coverage moves. This could actually make it a huge issue.

I suppose we should also talk about increased centralization of Great Tusk. While spinning would still probably be the main way of removal, Iron Treads being gone stings a bit. Possible alternative like Excadrill and Quaquaval are also gone. You likely need to go to mons that are currently RU or below just to find a reliable spinning alternatives. Same for Defog, though, so the reliance on spinning for most teams likely stays the same. The one possible exception might be Geezing, which can now run other abilities besides NG to reliably Defog now. The combination of Levitate and no Steels could actually make it quite good. Psychic could be its only weakness.

One of the biggest changes is the lack of Gambit. While there are other SP mons, nothing really takes its place as an end game win condition. Certain mons that Gambit makes hard to use would become more viable. I'd imagine Horoark is one such mon.

We should also talk about Gliscor. As a hazard resistant and Toxic immune glue mon, it would rise even more in importance. Corv is one of the biggest counters, and so Gliscor would face less resistance without the metal birds around. But Gambit also matters since one of the best resistances to Facade/Knock Off would no longer be in the tier. Steel types in general are a Facade resist, so only worrying about Rock and Ghost types to stop Facade is pretty huge for Gliscor. Tyranitar's increased prevalence maybe helps, but it also isn't Toxic immune.

Finally, Psychic Terrain might just become viable again without one of the main Psychic resistances in the metagame. It's far easier to prepare offensively for opposing Dark and Psychic types with Steel types out of the way. Without Crown, only 3 Psychic type are currently even OU. Hatt, Glowking, and D-speed are likely not enough to stop psyspam. D-speed might even help it. Dark types are an issue, but Gambit and Hamurott are now gone. While there are a number of Dark types that could hypothetically rise up from lower tiers, the biggest problem is Roaring Moon. Moon gets so many opportunities for free turns against psyspam. And since Psychic Terrain stops priority, most things on these teams cannot catch up to a boosted RM.
 
richCanadiangirlRNG said:
While it’s true that Stall can sometimes utilize offensive pressure to eliminate certain threats, it doesn’t mean it’s a core characteristic of the archetype.
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You're correct, and this is why I acknowledged that it isn't too uncommon to see specific mons run on Stall that fulfill a defensive niche by offensively pressuring specific massive threats to the archetype. It's not commonplace, but there are good Stalls that can utilize a single offensive mon well.

My point isn't that Stall should lean more offensively. That's not what Stall is. My point is more that there are specific use cases for offensive threats on Stall because they can better facilitate Stall's ability to sit there and win the war of attrition, and that being an offensive mon can still provide valuable defensive utility for any team.
 
UltraSword said:
Of course the game isn't just about damage calcs. However you can't deny that wood hammer is extremely strong against pokemon that aren't zapdos moltres or corviknight (or any other bulky grass resist of which there aren't that many). It obviously isn't loving hazards but it doesn't take worse than neutral damage from stealth rock and other than that it has plenty of pokemon it can switch in on. It can switch in on defensive gliscor walking wake (though admittedly I am not sure how much damage dragon pulse does) and let's not forget the other 7 VIABLE GROUND TYPES IN THE TIER (except clodsire). So while I won't argue that rillaboom is pretty mid in this tier it is not a fraud.

Also the reason I mentioned Zamazenta is because it is easily the best bulky offensive pokemon in the tier so rillaboom doing that to it is kind of insane.
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Here to plug the baller Miracle Seed set. Admittedly I haven’t played Rilla in a while. But listen— SD, Glide, Knock, Hammer @ Miracle Seed is legit. +2 Hammer is fucking nuts and you can clean up squishy teams with Tera +2 Glides.
 
Happy 2-Year Anniversary to SV OU!​

I am late to make that announcement, but I’ve been busy with school and other projects, so I haven’t been that active on the forums lately. The meta has changed so much and today I wanna discuss the trends within the last few weeks of this 2 year old metagame.

My favorite set to run

:sv/roaring_moon:
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Roost

I have messed around with bulky Roost and it’s probably the best Moon set rn. Moon tends to click DD, then Tera, and kills something before dying to priority, but this set eases its matchup into Dnite/Gambit and Roost heals off chip from stuff like Lando spamming U-Turn in front of you while you DD up. The EV spread also gives you a chance to live Lokix’s CB Tera Bug boosted First Impression after Tera.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Tera Ground Roaring Moon: 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Speaking of Lokix.

New Faces Of OU

:sv/lokix:
One of the best anti-HO mons in the tierrm and even vs Balance it pesters them with strong unresisted U-Turns or Knock Offs. It’s great at punishing defensive Teras from sweepers. Only mons it struggles to rkill are dual resists like Valiant and Iron Moth, as well as Dnite cuz E-Speed + Multiscale. Lokix’s competitive history has gone full circle from being OU at the start of the gen, to being a strong pick in OU. Lokix teams are hard to build but so satisfying once you nail them down.

:sv/pecharunt:
This mon has been entering staple status for about a month or so now. Role compresses a Wogre/Zama check, spinblocker, Tspike absorber, and pivot in one. Everyone knows how cracked those Samu + Pecha teams are. It’s kinda surprising this mon took so long to take off cuz 88/160 physical bulk and Parting Shot sounds insane, and it is.

:sv/scizor:
Been seeing Scizor more frequently for the same reasons we’ve been seeing more Lokix. An anti-HO mon that loves to click Knock + U-Turn with hazards up. Kyurem also dropping Specs these days for DD, Sub-Tect, or Mixed AoA helps Scizor’s profile as a short-term Kyu check.

Falling Off

:sv/deoxys_speed:
Its usage has been plummenting recently. Awkward into Samu leads, outclassed as a mixed attacker and a hazard setter, hard to fit on teams, and pure Psychic is just an ass offensive typing. Doesn’t help that Lokix is trending rn. Still good, but there’s a reason it’s nearing UU status.

:sv/sinistcha:
After some months of Sinistcha hype, the tea is starting to spill out, but in a bad way. Faces competition with Pecharunt who doesn’t “sap” away momentum, and Gholdengo who can also block Defog. It’s an inconsistent Wogre check due to Knock + the possibility of it being paired with Gholdengo, leading to Strength Sap or Sball 50/50s. While its good, the meta is less kind to it atm.

:sv/enamorus:
Still good but due to having an awkward speed tier, being frail, and being SR weak, it’s hard to fit on teams. There’s a couple good Enam builds but it’s struggling to find a footing in this offensive meta. Might drop to UU next shift.

My Top 5
:kingambit: :gholdengo: :great_tusk: :zamazenta: :samurott_hisui:

2 years later and Gambit is still one of if not the best mon in the tier. Some teams can get completely fixed by simply having Gambit on the team. Great at clutching, stopping cheese, checking random shit, and doing Gambit things.

-Gholdengo has many more reasons for being this good outside of blocking spin. A consistent offensive/defensive glue and bulky Steel that can steal games with its fabled physdef Tera Fairy set. You can pretty much customize your Gholdengo to deal with any matchup. Offense? T-Wave. Balance? NP Recover. Stall? Psyshock or Scarf. If not for Gambit and its antics, Ghold would easily be the no. 1 mon for me.

-Like Gholdengo, Tusk’s a great offensive/defensive glue. 2-years later and Tusk is still the undisputed premier spinner of the tier. Ground STAB + Spinner + Knock hits everything minus Corv/Skarm. Without it, almost all the teams its run on would be inconsistent or unviable.

-Zama is a tad overrated but still incredible. Has a million different sets outside of the standard Ironpress Roar. Chesto Resto, Sub-ID, Boots, CB, AoA LO, etc. It gets forced into running Ice Fang these days due to SD Gliscor and Lando, but it helps that most Fairies in OU are either physically frail or Clefable. Even in bad MUs it always clutches out due to its defensive utility. Ol’ reliable Zama.

-Spicy take, but imo, Samu is top 5 material lol. Brainless mon with tons of set variety. Since most Gholds are bulky these days, Samus stopped giving a shit about their speed and started running more bulk, making it easier for it to vomit spikes. Easily the best Spiker in the tier and thats while comparing it to the Ground-type Paldean Ferrothorn variant. Checks the two best mons in the tier, being able to potentially vibe check Gambit with Encore.

Return to form for Veil and Webs

The cheesy HOs are back on ladder and tournaments.

:sv/ninetales_alola:
For Veil, people remembered how crazy some sweepers get behind screens, especially busted ass Kyurem. It’s not only a good Kyurem partner, but Alolatales also semi-checks it. Other stuff like Raging Bolt, Gambit, Moon, Ursaluna, Gliscor, Prima, and Wogre are absolutely cracked under Veil.

:sv/araquanid:
Webs rising in usage is more interesting, because Araquanid is hitting OU usage and is rivaling Ribombee as the premier Webs setter. A lot of that usage is from Araquanid being on two popular RMTs, both being from Duckular lol, but I’d argue its because Araquanid is a better setter than Ribombe. Araquanid makes Webs more consistent by checking its bad matchups like Glimmora and Iron Moth while providing the archetype with a defensive backbone into mons like Darkrai and Tusk. If you wanna know more about my thoughts on Araquanid, I posted a video on my channel I’ll link right here.

 
Apologies if this isn't the right place for it, but how is the points gained/lost after a battle determined? Is it completely random or is there some logic to it? Seems like it's quite all over the place, just a bit ago I was at 1485 and figured I'd only need one win to reach 1500, but then I only gotta 11 points then the next battle I lost and went down a massive 25! (Most I've ever seen tbh)
 
Gigabowser20 said:
Apologies if this isn't the right place for it, but how is the points gained/lost after a battle determined? Is it completely random or is there some logic to it? Seems like it's quite all over the place, just a bit ago I was at 1485 and figured I'd only need one win to reach 1500, but then I only gotta 11 points then the next battle I lost and went down a massive 25! (Most I've ever seen tbh)
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Your question probably belongs here.

If you're talking about Elo, then the amount of points you gain is based on how your opponent's rating compares to yours. A 1500 player beating a 1200 player will gain less points than if they beat a 1500+ player. Basically, it's likely you were heavily favored to win that battle and so you gained less points for it. The exact points won or lost would depend on how the system is implemented. I don't remember what Smogon's is but someone else may be able to answer that for you in the linked thread.
 
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