Kingambit used Sucker Punch
-
The moderators of this forum are Finchinator, Ruft, ausma, 658Greninja, kd458, FayaWizard, Srn, TPP, and viivian.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Let's just say the reason starts and ends with the third letter of the alphabet...
Who the hell would actually keep a choice-locked ghost mon in on a kingambit? Especially one that can't OHKO with its neutral moves? The only option Thundurus-T has to OHKO gambit is focus blast which is only gonna be locked on in fringe circumstances (with even fewer of those circumstances being while tera'd) and Thundurus lives a sucker punch while off tera anyways.
Kingambit used Swords Dance!
I'd actually argue that gambit existing is a big part of the reason why there are so much less choiced mons compared to gen 8 (and an almost entire disappearance of scarf mons, although booster also has something to do with that), apart from the one who have absurd power / don't click moves that gambit resist lol.
Even then a bulky gambit set can pretty much always live 1 neutral move. 248/8 defenses lets it live off of a thundurus-t specs tbolt (although I calced with timid lol)
God I wish this was the case. I really wish you were right about scarfed mons disappearing.
Relevant Pokemon that use Choiced items in Gen 9 OU:
(excluding UUBL ranked mons or below)
Choice Band - 6
-Dragapult
-Dragonite
-Meowscarada
-Rillaboom
-Roaring Moon
-Zamazenta
Choice Specs - 10
-Darkrai
-Dragapult
-Enamorus
-Gholdengo
-Iron Crown
-Iron Valiant
-Kyurem
-Primarina
-Raging Bolt
-Walking Wake
Choice Scarf - 8
-Darkrai
-Enamorus
-Gholdengo
-Iron Valiant
-Landorus-T
-Raging Bolt
-Roaring Moon
-Samurott-H
TOTAL - 24
Relevant Pokemon that use Choiced items in Gen 8 OU:
(excluding UUBL ranked mons or below)
Choice Band - 8
-Barraskewda
-Dragonite
-Melmetal
-Rillaboom
-Tyranitar
-Urshifu-RS
-Victini
-Weavile
Choice Specs - 5
-Blacephalon
-Dragapult
-Magnezone
-Pelipper
-Tapu Lele
Choice Scarf - 5
-Blacephalon
-Kartana
-Landorus-T
-Tapu Lele
-Urshifu-RS
TOTAL - 18
Conclusion: SV OU has more viable OU-ranked Choiced mons than SS OU
Not sure what yall are on
(excluding UUBL ranked mons or below)
Choice Band - 6
-Dragapult
-Dragonite
-Meowscarada
-Rillaboom
-Roaring Moon
-Zamazenta
Choice Specs - 10
-Darkrai
-Dragapult
-Enamorus
-Gholdengo
-Iron Crown
-Iron Valiant
-Kyurem
-Primarina
-Raging Bolt
-Walking Wake
Choice Scarf - 8
-Darkrai
-Enamorus
-Gholdengo
-Iron Valiant
-Landorus-T
-Raging Bolt
-Roaring Moon
-Samurott-H
TOTAL - 24
Relevant Pokemon that use Choiced items in Gen 8 OU:
(excluding UUBL ranked mons or below)
Choice Band - 8
-Barraskewda
-Dragonite
-Melmetal
-Rillaboom
-Tyranitar
-Urshifu-RS
-Victini
-Weavile
Choice Specs - 5
-Blacephalon
-Dragapult
-Magnezone
-Pelipper
-Tapu Lele
Choice Scarf - 5
-Blacephalon
-Kartana
-Landorus-T
-Tapu Lele
-Urshifu-RS
TOTAL - 18
Conclusion: SV OU has more viable OU-ranked Choiced mons than SS OU
Not sure what yall are on
I don't think it's fair to count them as 1 for 1 since Gen 9 has way more Pokemon overall than 8 does
This is a silly post. Choice items are not common in any post-HDB generation, but easily more common in SS than SV. You list a ton of fringe stuff and fail to realize any weight to each Pokemon -- stuff like Pult, Kart, Lele, Shifu, etc. are very common with choice items, for instance, in SS.
SV Pokemon - 38
SV Choice Users - 24
Ratio - 63.1%
SS Pokemon - 35
SS Choice Users - 18
Ratio - 51.4%
In short, ratio.
unfortunately, the post i was responding to mentioned "so much less choiced mons" which is straight up not true as there are more viable choiced mons in SV OU than SS, regardless of how common they are.
I mean I could also nitpick your lists, but neither here nor there (like scarf bolt? band meow?? specs prima and darkrai??? in SV or the lack of band drill, band landot, specs zap, specs koko, and both specs/scarf fini in SS)
Choice Items are more common in usage in SS and I'd say there are roughly the same numbr of viable choice users
unfortunately my super finnicky OU list only includes mons listed in smogon sets from SS OU because i dont play it to the point of knowing everything so i am def biased.
however i def missed a few in both gens and im willing to bet that there are def more choiced mons in SV by number alone, which is what im tryna prove. by amount of actual usage SS has more but i like being a silly so i decided to nitpick because i like making lists! hope this helps
That's not Finch's point at all though.
There's more choice USERS in SV but USING choice items in SV is less viable than in SS. Of the 24 choice users in SV, they are using choice items much less than the 18 choice users in SS.
my two prev posts
"unfortunately, the post i was responding to mentioned 'so much less choiced mons' which is straight up not true as there are more viable choiced mons in SV OU than SS, regardless of how common they are."
"unfortunately my super finnicky OU list only includes mons listed in smogon sets from SS OU because i dont play it to the point of knowing everything so i am def biased.
however i def missed a few in both gens and im willing to bet that there are def more choiced mons in SV by number alone, which is what im tryna prove. by amount of actual usage SS has more but i like being a silly so i decided to nitpick because i like making lists! hope this helps"
Pretty much every choice mon listed in SV has tons of other viable sets and a lot of these are made up ass sets. Band zama and Band pult were never super good as there's other mons that do their job 10x better and you're losing a fair bit of what makes them good (don't even get me started on band meow). Comparatively pretty much every mon listed for SS is dependent on choice items to be as good as they are. Specs/Scarf lele, Kart, Blacephalon are the only sets really used on those mons. Choiced pult is also a lot better and more consistent in SS than SV.
If we thin them down to sets that are actually used and are worth preparing for to a significant extent SS has more choiced mons than SV by a decent margin.
how many times must I repost the same post
"
unfortunately, the post i was responding to mentioned 'so much less choiced mons' which is straight up not true as there are more viable choiced mons in SV OU than SS, regardless of how common they are."
"unfortunately my super finnicky OU list only includes mons listed in smogon sets from SS OU because i dont play it to the point of knowing everything so i am def biased.
however i def missed a few in both gens and im willing to bet that there are def more choiced mons in SV by number alone, which is what im tryna prove. by amount of actual usage SS has more but i like being a silly so i decided to nitpick because i like making lists! hope this helps"
I think people are exaggerating how healthy Great Tusk is for the metagame. After only a single Rapid Spin it has the potential to become unstoppable due to its natural bulk that allows it to survive even SE special attacks in tandem with its monstrous attack stat that often means setup isn't even required (unless you count Rapid Spin as setup). It has the coverage options to easily beat ALL spinblockers (yes even FRAUDcha) and is a pain in the ass to stop from spinning as after spinblocking you basically have only a single turn before the enemy clicks a much stronger attack. In order to reliably beat it you need a robust physical wall, usually a Rooster, or something that outspeeds even after a boost and can hit it SE, or SE priority (which is really only Aqua Jet because nobody uses Weavile anymore), OR you just hit it hard, accept that a mon will die, and THEN nuke it with priority, and of course, you can also just have the right Tera. None of that is particularly hard to do or to fit on a team, but if you don't have at least one of those things at the ready when the elephant is about to spin or has already spun, it's basically guaranteed that Tusk is going to flatten what remains of your team. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that people need to stop hailing it as some paragon of a healthy metagame. All that being said, I'd still take dealing with the Proboscidean Entity over Fenris Wolf (thanks Raikou Fan) any day of the week.
1) use their fucking names
2) sinistcha beats tusk
3) tusk is one of 5 hazard removal options in the meta and the only fully reliable one
4) has the special bulk of a small child
Please stop; Tusk is completely healthy for the metagame
252 SpA Iron Crown Psychic Noise vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 390-462 (105.1 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 398-470 (107.2 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (assume this is mixed)
252 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 380-450 (102.4 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Liquid Voice Primarina Psychic Noise vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 326-386 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 476-564 (128.3 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 316-374 (85.1 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
If its max hp, it maybe can survive the hit, but I wouldn't say this is necessarily amazing hittaking. In a realistic game, tusk isn't going to always be max hp, so even non stab super effective hits will be KO'ing it.
And? What does this have to do with anything? Most of our spinblockers lose to our rapid spin users. Treads can defeat all besides maybe sinistcha (but even then it doesn't like taking ice spinner), excadrill also blows them up besides maybe sinistcha and quaquaval annihilates them with aqua step or knock off (besides sinistcha again, but like, cool).
And all of these are fine? Like, most of our physical walls do decent against tusk, the metal birds are great, sinistcha can still beat it with strength sap, gliscor can take one hit from it and toxic it in return, zamazenta can id up with it or roar it out, zapdos and moltres screw it over with status/big damage, alolomola just doesn't care about it at all lol, landorus can take one hit and intim it and dondozo is there if you really need it. Most teams will either have a choice scarfer or booster energy mon, and guess what? Most of them hit it super effectively. Valiant moonblasts it into oblivion, iron moth fiery dance does ton to it or energy ball just OHKO's it, scarf darkrai hits it with ice beam, deoxys speed psycho boosts it, scarf enam moonblasts it, scarf meow hits it with flower trick (which does 50% to it, but it can always survive an ice spinner from full).
Also rillaboom exists, which while it is on the downtrend, is still great at hitting tusk for big damage. Also people still use weavile, its a good mon in the tier and handwaving away isn't doing anything.
This happens for most mons (when teambuilding, your team should already have 2 answers AT least for tusk, you get those answers by just making a good team, speed control is really important for teams and unless you are making HO, your team will have a defensive wall), when you remove there answers, a mon goes crazy. Remove primarina's answers, and it will probably win. Remove okidoki's answers, and it will go crazy.
It is a paragon of a healthy metagame, and saying otherwise is silly. It provides a defensive backbone to teams while not being dead weight offensively (but not being overbaring offensively too). It also is very important because it is probably THE BEST hazard remover in the game, bar none. It CAN sweep, but that's fine, it has to get multiple boosts to OHKO things (which is important cause headlong rush reduces its defense stats, e-quake is only good on defensive variants), and still has mons that naturally wall it.
I can’t speak to the validity of any particular inclusion on these lists because I don’t play gen 9 or 8 OU. But I can read, and I can count, so I’ve noticed that you’ve double counted several Pokémon by listing them under multiple choice items. For gen 9, Dragapult is listed under Band and Specs, Roaring Moon is listed under Band and Scarf, and Darkrai, Enamorus, Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, and Raging Bolt are all listed under both Scarf and Specs. Removing all 7 of the doubly counted species, gen 9’s total drops to 17. The gen 8 list only has two such pokemon, Blacephalon and Urshifu, so its total number of unique species that use choice items according to your list is 16. Now, I imagine that how one handles Band Dragapult is quite different from how one handles Specs Dragapult, so I think it would be worth noting that gen 9 has more Pokémon capable of using multiple different Choice items effectively.
However, you definitely don’t get to double count species when comparing the total number of users to the total number of species in the tier. The actual ratios, going by your list, are:
17/38 ≈ 44.7%
and
16/35 ≈ 45.7%
Now, I think that even these ratios are uselessly misrepresentative, as they fail to account for how often any of these Pokemon actually use Choice items instead of some other item, but even taken at face value they don’t seem to support whatever point it was that you were trying to make.
Crying has a much bigger brain than me and can make Choice Scarf work on any Pokemon tbf
Next you're gonna say we should put Landorus-Therian on the radar because it has nearly the same attack stat as Groudon amd is too consistent at setting Stealth Rocks?
I can't lie now this is starting to piss me off. Great Tusk may be an amazing Pokémon but not only do pokemon like sinistcha and ogerpon w exist to beat the crap out of it but great Tusk isn't even that strong even with proto boost. It is basically the gold standard of a utility pokemon that can provide offensive support. It is nowhere near unhealthy banworthy and it even helps the metagame. It is number 1 in usage for a reason. I could maybe believe that alomomola is a little unhealthy but this is completely insane.