Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Poor Breloom, Amoonguss and Brute Bonnet suffered the consequences of Pokémon using a 60% accurate move lol

I am still so sad about Toedscruel. In DLC1 I was convinced he was a great spinner, it's just that a spinner in OU that hard loses to Gliscor wasn't playable in that meta. After DLC2 I was determined to put in the hours to learn a good Toedscruel team and make my case, he was obviously not going to be banned at least. And then they banned him.

The whole point was that Gholdengo struggles to switch into his spore to spinblock. Then Leech Seed is a solid progress/recovery move and also means he dominates garganacl, especially if they were hoping to wait out the sleep. Without spore he's just garbage.
 
So I've been messing around with various Roaring Moon sets to explore the very underrated set diversity. You know, stuff like tera Fairy or Tera Dragon Outrage with Iron Head. Anything but the cliche Tera Flying Acrobatics sets that everyone uses too much of.

So my latest experiment is AV Roaring Moon:

Roaring Moon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 200 HP / 100 SpD / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Dragon Tail
- Scale Shot

I wanted to try it with Wish Support like some of the AV Scizor teams. So I put together some junk with Alomomola to test it on low ladder. I have to say it isn't bad. It can do pretty good into a lot of special attackers like Darkrai, Iron Moth, Zapados, Iron Crown, Gholdengo, Sun Venusaur, and Glowking. Conditionally, you can do decent into Moltres, Raging Bolt, and Walking Wake depending on circumstances.

The biggest issue I found is that it is kinda hard to build around it as a defensive mon. A lot of hazard setters (which you really want because Knock Off and stuff) share similar vulnerability to types like Ice, Bug, Fighting, or maybe Fairy. This gets worse if you want Tusk to be your clear. I've not properly wrapped my head around how I'd like to build around it. But I do think it is viable.
I'm well aware of what Talon brings to the table defensively and in terms of defogging. What I was specifically asking was about it in rain, since its speed is absolutely not worth the loss of 51 base stat points of Special Attack, on top of losing Weather Ball, Scorching Sands, and general inferior bulk.
Priority Hurricane with Double STAB isn't necesarrily bad, especially if you have a power boosting item like Choice Specs. You are going off high base power so the bonus multiplier stacking is really abusable in the right situations. The biggest problem is that it can be unreliable. But if you think about it, Talonflame doesn't need to worry about any hazards besides rocks. It's similar to running non-Boots D-nite in that way.
 
So I've been messing around with various Roaring Moon sets to explore the very underrated set diversity. You know, stuff like tera Fairy or Tera Dragon Outrage with Iron Head. Anything but the cliche Tera Flying Acrobatics sets that everyone uses too much of.

So my latest experiment is AV Roaring Moon:

Roaring Moon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 200 HP / 100 SpD / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Dragon Tail
- Scale Shot

I wanted to try it with Wish Support like some of the AV Scizor teams. So I put together some junk with Alomomola to test it on low ladder. I have to say it isn't bad. It can do pretty good into a lot of special attackers like Darkrai, Iron Moth, Zapados, Iron Crown, Gholdengo, Sun Venusaur, and Glowking. Conditionally, you can do decent into Moltres, Raging Bolt, and Walking Wake depending on circumstances.

The biggest issue I found is that it is kinda hard to build around it as a defensive mon. A lot of hazard setters (which you really want because Knock Off and stuff) share similar vulnerability to types like Ice, Bug, Fighting, or maybe Fairy. This gets worse if you want Tusk to be your clear. I've not properly wrapped my head around how I'd like to build around it. But I do think it is viable.
I’ve considered AV Roaring Moon, but decided to pass on it because I was too scared to lose elo. Something I took a look at was Assault Vest Sylveon, which seems pretty interesting in the calcs. Max HP 0 spdef Calm isn’t even 2HKOed by Darkrai’s Tera Poison Sludge Bomb. A moveset like Draining Kiss, Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Shadow Ball could work. It is unfortunately slow and hazard prone though, so probably bad. Primarina is likely just better.
 
I really don't think bulk-invested AV Roaring moon is viable, especially that set with 2 Dragon-type moves as it's using none of Roaring Moon's strengths as a progress-maker while making it really passive.
I mean, Moon is pretty bulky on the special side. The point is that you don't need to use it as just a DD mon for it to be viable. Knock Off and U-turn are pretty solid for progress making, too. A defensive pivot is a less conventional way to use the mon. I need more testing to say for sure if it is viable, but it pilots pretty well in limited testing.

I hear you on the double Dragon moves, sort of, but each of them has decent utility. Scale Shot lets you boost speed. Dragon Tail is pretty good if you switch into a boosted special attacking setup sweeper and can phase them out. Perhaps Roar would be better, but you can't use that on AV. Maybe you could replace one of those Dragon moves with something else like Iron Head? I could see that working, maybe. I'd probably lose Scale shot since phasing is still important.
 
I really don't think bulk-invested AV Roaring moon is viable, especially that set with 2 Dragon-type moves as it's using none of Roaring Moon's strengths as a progress-maker while making it really passive.
I’ve considered AV Roaring Moon, but decided to pass on it because I was too scared to lose elo. Something I took a look at was Assault Vest Sylveon, which seems pretty interesting in the calcs. Max HP 0 spdef Calm isn’t even 2HKOed by Darkrai’s Tera Poison Sludge Bomb. A moveset like Draining Kiss, Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Shadow Ball could work. It is unfortunately slow and hazard prone though, so probably bad. Primarina is likely just better.
What about an HDB Utility set with Knock Uturn Roost and Dragon Tail to be more self-sufficient and to be kind of a bulky defensive progress maker and pivot?
 
What about an HDB Utility set with Knock Uturn Roost and Dragon Tail to be more self-sufficient and to be kind of a bulky defensive progress maker and pivot?
Problem I see is that you’re just dead weight against some of the most common Pokémon in the tier. Tusk, Gambit, Zama, IVal all just switch in for semi-free, and there’s not much you can do in return. I suppose the argument is that you use it on Hazard Stack teams to wear them down, but are there not just better Knock users? Plus Dragon/Dark is a horrific defensive typing that doesn’t really check much of any of the meta’s top Special threats. Could ditch Dragon Tail for Claw or Earthquake, and go fully offensive Pivot. At that point I feel like you’re just better off running Booster Acro.
 
Problem I see is that you’re just dead weight against some of the most common Pokémon in the tier. Tusk, Gambit, Zama, IVal all just switch in for semi-free, and there’s not much you can do in return. I suppose the argument is that you use it on Hazard Stack teams to wear them down, but are there not just better Knock users? Plus Dragon/Dark is a horrific defensive typing that doesn’t really check much of any of the meta’s top Special threats. Could ditch Dragon Tail for Claw or Earthquake, and go fully offensive Pivot. At that point I feel like you’re just better off running Booster Acro.
I feel like people are generally missing the point. This is a special defense concept. Listing off mostly physical mons as free switch ins is kinda strange. I would also argue the free switch in point, since U-turn and Dragon Tail (against non-Fairy mons) reset the momentum for you. Knock Off also takes away an item. So 2-3 of your moves aren't free switchins for most mons. Just because you aren't doing the raw damage of the typical offensive sets doesn't mean you aren't doing anything progress related.

Like does anybody remember Torn-T? It's a semi-similar concept. These sets would generally run either AV or HDB with Knock Off, U-turn, a main STAB like Hurricane, and whatever fourth move. The Roaring Moon concept we are talking about would be kinda like that, except without Regenerator and Knock Off is already a main STAB. Moon would have to overcome the lack of passive healing through Wish Support, HDB with Roost at the expense of some stats, or just running a faster paced team.

As for the typing, it's not that bad. Dark/Dragon has a lot of weaknesses, but also plenty of useful resistances like Dark, Fire, Water, Electric, Psychic, and Ghost. These are all common special attacking STABs. I would argue Moon is actually useful into a lot of common special attackers.

Finally, I'm a bit tired of the fixation on Booster Acrobatics sets. The reason why I started experimenting with RM was how overly fixated players have been on that set. It's a good set. But it's far from all RM can do.
 
I feel like people are generally missing the point. This is a special defense concept. Listing off mostly physical mons as free switch ins is kinda strange.
Right, so let's try this with special attackers... oh, :iron valiant:, :enamorus:, :primarina:, and even somewhat :hatterene: can come in for free? it takes big damage from a common :glimmora: and :iron moth: coverage move, can't really eat hits from specs :dragapult: and :walking wake: that well, and cannot switch into and is susceptible to being counter-tera'd by :raging bolt:? Even by non-OU mons that see usage, :hydrapple: isn't a safe switch and :serperior: always runs a super effective move? :keldeo: doesn't even target it's spdef stat with the super effective move?
it's almost as if roaring moon is bad at this. it can't switch in to far too many special attackers, and even if it is in it invites several special attackers in for free, not the mention the opportunity cost of running strong removal to get it to function in the first place.
 
why the fuck are we talking about the merits of roaring moon as a fat utility mon or av pivot? it's like trying to use a rocket launcher as a club. i am begging you, just be normal and use one of the best breaker/sweepers in the tier as a breaker/sweeper. not everything has to have some sort of wacky zany alternative set
 
Right, so let's try this with special attackers... oh, :iron valiant:, :enamorus:, :primarina:, and even somewhat :hatterene: can come in for free? it takes big damage from a common :glimmora: and :iron moth: coverage move, can't really eat hits from specs :dragapult: and :walking wake: that well, and cannot switch into and is susceptible to being counter-tera'd by :raging bolt:? Even by non-OU mons that see usage, :hydrapple: isn't a safe switch and :serperior: always runs a super effective move? :keldeo: doesn't even target it's spdef stat with the super effective move?
it's almost as if roaring moon is bad at this. it can't switch in to far too many special attackers, and even if it is in it invites several special attackers in for free, not the mention the opportunity cost of running strong removal to get it to function in the first place.
Going straight to the 4 Fairy mons to a 4x weak mon is borderline trolling. Like you don't say Lando-T cannot switch into anybody and list the Ice moves, do you? You cover that with your team.

Most people run Roaring Moon as a glass cannon. I'm not talking about your 252 speed + 252 Attack EV spreads. My initial post was bulk invested AV with speed EVs made to outspeed Serp. Ok? Run the calcs. Then tell me again that Moon cannot switch into any special mon. It's not true. Moth is one of your better switch ins. If you switch into Serp's Grass move, it isn't going to get a Dragon Move off before you U-turn or something. Wake is generally choice locked on Sun. And if you want to talk counter Tera, you could either counter the Tera with your own Tera Steel or just let the opponent burn their Tera early.

The opportunity cost of running strong removal is potentially valid. As I have said, I had a harder time fitting this in a good team concept than getting it to work in a vacuum. I do tend not to build my teams towards Boots spam, though.

And before somebody says it, yes, I'm aware this set has flaws. I have mentioned some of them. But most of the analyses people posted surrounding it have seemingly demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what it is, why it is, and what it is supposed to do.
why the fuck are we talking about the merits of roaring moon as a fat utility mon or av pivot? it's like trying to use a rocket launcher as a club. i am begging you, just be normal and use one of the best breaker/sweepers in the tier as a breaker/sweeper
Set diversity? I mean, I could just be "normal" and use Tera Flying Acrobatics like everybody else. But that would be artificially limiting the mon into a single set/niche. This is one of my biggest pet peeves.
 
I think the only application that I can think of for Fat Roaring Moon is as a way to clear a path of Pokemon like Sinistcha for Pokemon like Zamazenta. Something like:

Roaring Moon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpD / 88 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Taunt
- U-Turn/Roar/Earthquake/Jaw Lock

Super niche in application, but with some Hazards up sets up your Zama to get past some of its worst match ups. That’s all I really have for Fat Utility RM.
 
Going straight to the 4 Fairy mons to a 4x weak mon is borderline trolling. Like you don't say Lando-T cannot switch into anybody and list the Ice moves, do you? You cover that with your team.
I don't know how to make this clearer. If there are four commonly used fairy type special attacking pokemon in OU, DO NOT USE A 4X WEAK TO FAIRY POKEMON AS A GENERIC SPECIAL WALL. There's a reason why both pivot and AV :slowking-galar: see use, because they ANSWER the pokemon listed above to a very strong degree through super effective STAB/coverage pressure or through ticking status or permanently making the mon move at half speed through a coinflip while also exerting pressure into whatever switches in.
There's a reason people haven't historically used pokemon like Bastiodon or Aggron or even Stakataka in OU despite their very strong physically defensive stat spreads. It's because that cannot save you from being quadruply weak to the MOST common and spammable attacking types of the side of the attacking spectrum YOU ARE TRYING TO WALL.
Tera isn't an argument for this either. If you HAVE to dedicate a tera for a wall to function and it's anything short of the gamefreak favouritism-induced acid trip salt block immunity spam permanent chip monster of a mon it's likely better to just find something that works without it. I would sooner use AVPrim or AVKing over this set because those can take hits from the get go without worrying too much.
Landorus being 4x weak to Ice generally doesn't factor in because of the comparative rarity of it alongside its typing being otherwise defensively stellar. Comparing a specially based pokemon with four (5 if you count Clefable) ou special attackers that eat it for breakfast, to lando, where there are literally zero ice types in OU by usage, is wild. The physically offensive ice types, such as Weavile and Meowscarada, have also both notably been on downward trends lately, evidenced clearly by Weavile's drop and the constant push to lower their rankings in the VR.
Most people run Roaring Moon as a glass cannon. I'm not talking about your 252 speed + 252 Attack EV spreads. My initial post was bulk invested AV with speed EVs made to outspeed Serp. Ok? Run the calcs. Then tell me again that Moon cannot switch into any special mon. It's not true. Moth is one of your better switch ins. If you switch into Serp's Grass move, it isn't going to get a Dragon Move off before you U-turn or something. Wake is generally choice locked on Sun. And if you want to talk counter Tera, you could either counter the Tera with your own Tera Steel or just let the opponent burn their Tera early.
I'll give you Serp, though you would absolutely be in a tough situation if Serp chose to, I dunno, click the free hax button on switchin and force you to beat the lottery to not lose to it while it sets up.
Wake being choice locked isn't much of an argument if it can still take kills every time before RM can come in safely, and Mystic Water is still a real set that can screw you over if you guess wrong. Ideally you would want to use one of the special walls in the tier that isn't as afraid of Wake instadropping them.
I mentioned exactly one pokemon that would counter tera in this situation, Bolt. Nothing else here needs to do that. Keldeo can still roll you, Hydrapple can still click its STAB move, Glimmora and Moth can and still often do run DGleam on their sets. And of course, the four fairies are still four fairies.

In general I don't think this idea is worth pursuing in the slightest, but if you want to, hey, more power to you. I've said my piece.
 
Right, so let's try this with special attackers... oh, :iron valiant:, :enamorus:, :primarina:, and even somewhat :hatterene: can come in for free? it takes big damage from a common :glimmora: and :iron moth: coverage move, can't really eat hits from specs :dragapult: and :walking wake: that well, and cannot switch into and is susceptible to being counter-tera'd by :raging bolt:? Even by non-OU mons that see usage, :hydrapple: isn't a safe switch and :serperior: always runs a super effective move? :keldeo: doesn't even target it's spdef stat with the super effective move?
it's almost as if roaring moon is bad at this. it can't switch in to far too many special attackers, and even if it is in it invites several special attackers in for free, not the mention the opportunity cost of running strong removal to get it to function in the first place.
Agree, the typing is one of the main issues here. It pretty much doesn't beat any relevant special attacker except non-gleam moth, gholdengo, and gking. Even gholdengo and gking can twave it which pretty much kills off any utility it has since the speed is the main draw over something like Ting Lu.
I think the only application that I can think of for Fat Roaring Moon is as a way to clear a path of Pokemon like Sinistcha for Pokemon like Zamazenta. Something like:

Roaring Moon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpD / 88 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Taunt
- U-Turn/Roar/Earthquake/Jaw Lock

Super niche in application, but with some Hazards up sets up your Zama to get past some of its worst match ups. That’s all I really have for Fat Utility RM.
It wouldn't clear a path for Zama since the Zama check that loses to Moon will just switch out. And standard Moon does the same thing.

I think people often misunderstand the effect of running a mon that beats your opponent's check to another mon. This is generally effective only when the mon in question has no switch ins on the opponent's team or u have hazards up. For example, Dondozo isn't very good but that isn't because it loses to every special attacker. It can just switch out. Running pokemon with different checks is mainly important for making sure your entire team won't get 6-0d by one defensive pokemon.

What you should be doing on offense is stacking mons that have similar checks to overwhelm them. E.g. something like Knock Off Ogerpon.
Going straight to the 4 Fairy mons to a 4x weak mon is borderline trolling. Like you don't say Lando-T cannot switch into anybody and list the Ice moves, do you? You cover that with your team.

Most people run Roaring Moon as a glass cannon. I'm not talking about your 252 speed + 252 Attack EV spreads. My initial post was bulk invested AV with speed EVs made to outspeed Serp. Ok? Run the calcs. Then tell me again that Moon cannot switch into any special mon. It's not true. Moth is one of your better switch ins. If you switch into Serp's Grass move, it isn't going to get a Dragon Move off before you U-turn or something. Wake is generally choice locked on Sun. And if you want to talk counter Tera, you could either counter the Tera with your own Tera Steel or just let the opponent burn their Tera early.

The opportunity cost of running strong removal is potentially valid. As I have said, I had a harder time fitting this in a good team concept than getting it to work in a vacuum. I do tend not to build my teams towards Boots spam, though.

And before somebody says it, yes, I'm aware this set has flaws. I have mentioned some of them. But most of the analyses people posted surrounding it have seemingly demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what it is, why it is, and what it is supposed to do.

Set diversity? I mean, I could just be "normal" and use Tera Flying Acrobatics like everybody else. But that would be artificially limiting the mon into a single set/niche. This is one of my biggest pet peeves.
I remember discussing Tapu Koko's set diversity with you a while back. I can admire wanting to push a mon's potential, but you have a tendency to overestimate the extent to which mons can effectively run different sets in general.

Roaring Moon lacks any progress making capability outside of a weak knock off and u turn, which is cool, but too slow at making progress. Also a massive coverage issue since it basically can't touch anything that beats it - ur gonna be letting a lot of things in for free. Spdef Moon doesn't even beat standard Raging Bolt 1v1 btw.

Boots spdef is gonna be forced to Roost quite often as well, so you're gonna be giving up free turns. This lack of passive recovery is probably the biggest issue (AV Moon is very good in AAA for what it's worth).

And the AV set is just straight up not good. You cannot even touch some of the most relevant and threatening mons in the tier, and u get obliterated by hazards and have 0 longevity. Just use Ting Lu.

The typing is pretty bad defensively, the reason why Carl The Turtle is listing those pokemon is because they are some of the most relevant special attackers in the tier. Ting Lu gets away with it because of the ground typing which lets it beat twave/electrics and block volt switch. Ting Lu is also significantly better at making progress with Spikes/Ruination/Whirlwind, and has much higher defensive stats. Ting Lu also isn't meant to be a long term check anyway (and this is fine since it can reliably get up 3 layers in most games), unlike your Moon set.

Anyway, people have been experimenting with Roaring Moon. Scarf moon popped up a few months back, and you see some non-flying teras on booster dd acro in recent tournaments. It's this kind of experimentation that is most effective, not trying to make a Pokemon do something it was never meant to do and that other mons can do much better.

Iirc, you were citing Roaring Moon's potential set diversity as a reason for why you think it's broken. I urge you to reconsider the merit and more importantly the flaws of the sets you are experimenting with and you will probably come to a different conclusion. Would not mind if you included some replays as well.
 
Last edited:
I don't know how to make this clearer. If there are four commonly used fairy type special attacking pokemon in OU, DO NOT USE A 4X WEAK TO FAIRY POKEMON AS A GENERIC SPECIAL WALL.
By this logic, you shouldn't use AV Crown either since it loses to commo special attackers like Darkrai, Iron Moth, Wake, Pult, and Valiant if it has the right coverage like Knock Off or Shadow Ball. Why have Volt switch when it is entirely countered by Ground types? Well, the answer is that it has enough utility into enough things to be worth it. Furthermore, I would also like to correct you that this is more of a bulky pivot than a pure wall, which functions somewhat differently.

I understand what you are saying about the 4X weakness and Fairy coverage moves are common. Checking Darkrai is pretty good. You don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives. But outright ignoring the benefits won't make a convincing argument to me.
I remember discussing Tapu Koko's set diversity with you a while back. I can admire wanting to push a mon's potential, but you have a tendency to overestimate the extent to which mons can effectively run different sets in general.

Roaring Moon lacks any progress making capability outside of a weak knock off and u turn, which is cool, but too slow at making progress. Also a massive coverage issue since it basically can't touch anything that beats it - ur gonna be letting a lot of things in for free. Spdef Moon doesn't even beat standard Raging Bolt 1v1 btw.

Boots spdef is gonna be forced to Roost quite often as well, so you're gonna be giving up free turns. This lack of passive recovery is probably the biggest issue (AV Moon is very good in AAA for what it's worth).

And the AV set is just straight up not good. You cannot even touch some of the most relevant and threatening mons in the tier, and u get obliterated by hazards and have 0 longevity. Just use Ting Lu.

The typing is pretty bad defensively, the reason why Carl The Turtle is listing those pokemon is because they are some of the most relevant special attackers in the tier. Ting Lu gets away with it because of the ground typing which lets it beat twave/electrics and block volt switch. Ting Lu is also significantly better at making progress with Spikes/Ruination/Whirlwind, and has much higher defensive stats. Ting Lu also isn't meant to be a long term check anyway (and this is fine since it can reliably get up 3 layers in most games), unlike your Moon set.

Anyway, people have been experimenting with Roaring Moon. Scarf moon popped up a few months back, and you see some non-flying teras on booster dd acro in recent tournaments. It's this kind of experimentation that is most effective, not trying to make a Pokemon do something it was never meant to do and that other mons can do much better.

Iirc, you were citing Roaring Moon's potential set diversity as a reason for why you think it's broken. I urge you to reconsider the merit and more importantly the flaws of the sets you are experimenting with and you will probably come to a different conclusion. Would not mind if you included some replays as well.
This is a lot to address. The Tapu Koko debate was a hypothetical that cannot be tested. And Nat Dex has a lot of factors like Z moves, Megas, and Ferrothorn that don't translate to an OU metagame. I know a little bit more than the average Joe on game design. So I understand mechanics and how Quark Drive might interact in an OU metagame. While this doesn't mean I'm always right, I generally understand the mechanics beyond what might be considered conventional metagame wisdom.

As for AV Roaring Moon, this is a bit of a misrepresentation of my actual stance. I made it clear in my initial comment and several after that it needs more testing. And so far, I only tested AV on low ladder. I was hoping for maybe more brainstorming rather than certain regressive things. But undeniably, there are certain benefits to AV Moon. Whether the benefits outweigh the negatives is a different matter. What I mainly take issue with is certain arguments.

The lack of progress and free switch in points were already addressed, though. It's not a good argument in this case, especially the free switch. You take a hit as the bulky pivot you are, and then you U-turn into your counterplay, Dragon Tail the setup mon or the predicted free switch so they take more hazard chip, or destroy an item. It isn't free. And if you have any other defensive backbone on your team, you can probably steal back momentum with the right mons anyways.

Boots was a suggestion by another poster because of Roost, but I haven't tested it. It's pure theorymon at this point. It might not be good. I'm just open minded about it. There was a couple breaking swipe sets awhile back that someone posted that seemed to work ok.

The AV Moon set was tested so far with Wish support on low ladder. There was an AV Scizor concept while Kyurem was a thing. Now that Kyurem is banned, Moon has a better shot to be relevant defensively. Ting Lu is good and probably better. But it's slow and not a pivot. It also isn't taking Water or Grass moves as well without Tera. It isn't the same kind of set.

Seeing Moon set diversity experimentation is good, but it's far from what the potential of the mon is. I had several posters just now talk about how you should just use booster Acro or to only use it as a breaker/sweeper. This suggests some people think the opposite about experimentation with Roaring Moon. As for what Moon was "meant" to do, it has HP and Sp. Attack both higher than base 100 with many good resistances. I feel like it's too soon to outright dismiss it like this.

Finally, the reason I think Moon is broken isn't what you stated. First of all, DD + BE + Tera is inherently problematic from a game design perspective. The set diversity part is about changing counterplay, which primarily centers around DD sets changing coverage and counterplay somewhat similarly to Gouging Fire. If the AV Moon set is viable, it would certainly never be broken. It would just be another thing the mon could do. Kinda like the Sap Sipper trapping Azu sets from several gens back.

I do have a few questionable low ladder replays, but I don't entirely know the value of them at this point. I will show a few since you asked.

Here, I let Sun Venusaur gets to plus 3. AV Moon lives the hit and almost phases it out, but the Dragon Tail misses:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2218927971

Goofy game against goofy mono Ice team, but Moon was able to counter Glowking and a Quiver Dance mon pretty freely:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2218935656

Probably the best of these not great replays. AV Moon helped bully Iron Crown and Great Tusk. You can at least see the pivoting flow despite the other misplays. This is how the set is supposed to function:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2218938752

Personally, I'd say these are mostly low quality replays for various reasons. The team I threw together was hardly a team. I was't planning to show any replays until I got some better quality stuff at later stages of testing. But it is what it is. I hope people don't take the wrong things away from this. Bad replays on low ladder were never meant to be proof of viability. That's obviously not the point of me showing these.
 
Last edited:
By this logic, you shouldn't use AV Crown either since it loses to commo special attackers like Darkrai, Iron Moth, Wake, Pult, and Valiant if it has the right coverage like Knock Off or Shadow Ball. Why have Volt switch when it is entirely countered by Ground types? Well, the answer is that it has enough utility into enough things to be worth it. Furthermore, I would also like to correct you that this is more of a bulky pivot than a pure wall, which functions somewhat differently.

I understand what you are saying about the 4X weakness and Fairy coverage moves are common. Checking Darkrai is pretty good. You don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives. But outright ignoring the benefits won't make a convincing argument to me.
This is a really poor argument. For one, Iron Crown is able to still pressure even things that threaten it so they don’t just come into it freely. Darkrai has to be careful to avoid Tachyon/Volt/Focus Blast, Iron Moth is afraid of Psychic Stab (and in a 1 on 1 if necessary AV crown can stay in to trade with Moth to keep it from snowballing), while Pult and Wake locked into Draco are actually entry points for Crown. And the ground bit is wrong. Why Volt Switch? Because Ting-Lu it’s not a very easy Volt to block as the other grounds don’t enjoy switching into it (even Gliscor due to Psychic Noise).

Crown also generates pressure when it’s on the field (well unless a Ting Lu is present) and is able to make progress. It’s not just switching in, it’s using those switch ins to keep momentum going.

Your theoretical AV Moon doesn’t check anything well, and certainly not better than other Pokémon do which just leads to, why bother? No one is ignoring “benefits”, you’re assuming them when there aren’t any.

I know a little bit more than the average Joe on game design. So I understand mechanics and how Quark Drive might interact in an OU metagame. While this doesn't mean I'm always right, I generally understand the mechanics beyond what might be considered conventional metagame wisdom.
Don’t be that guy. Don’t be pretentious please. Trying to hand wave people’s legitimate criticism of your argument with “well I have game design knowledge so I know more than you” is not strengthening your argument at all. It doesn’t legitimize anything you say.

Seeing Moon set diversity experimentation is good, but it's far from what the potential of the mon is. I had several posters just now talk about how you should just use booster Acro or to only use it as a breaker/sweeper. This suggests some people think the opposite about experimentation with Roaring Moon. As for what Moon was "meant" to do, it has HP and Sp. Attack both higher than base 100 with many good resistances. I feel like it's too soon to outright dismiss it like this.
Moon is intended to be a sweeper. Having high HP and Spdef doesn’t suddenly mean you should run janky defensive sets. It’s there to ease its set up vs things it can come in on (fire types, some electric types, etc). It’s a poor Dragon Tail user as it completely blanks into Fairies (which you’re giving completely free set up to when they come in), not to mention fighting types. If you’re actually looking for a dragon phaser, you’d seriously just be better off with Chomp since that sets up hazards and has chip punishing. Better yet, use the actually excellent and important Ting-Lu which is a better phaser than both and a better dark type than Roaring Moon (defensively).

Finally, the reason I think Moon is broken isn't what you stated. First of all, DD + BE + Tera is inherently problematic from a game design perspective. The set diversity part is about changing counterplay, which primarily centers around DD sets changing coverage and counterplay somewhat similarly to Gouging Fire.
It’s not. We’ve gone months without extensive complaints about this Mon. You can’t just go “but game design” because gameplay is right there to prove it’s not an issue. If it were truly bad game design, we’d be having issues with more than just Moon. It’d extend to other boosting BE mons but it doesn’t even get beyond Moon which isn’t an issue.
 
You know if zamazenta is indeed up for the next Vote, I pray for the love of god that they chose holding out for a hero, Jennifer sanders cover, to seal the hero doggos fate :P
 
Problem I see is that you’re just dead weight against some of the most common Pokémon in the tier. Tusk, Gambit, Zama, IVal all just switch in for semi-free, and there’s not much you can do in return. I suppose the argument is that you use it on Hazard Stack teams to wear them down, but are there not just better Knock users? Plus Dragon/Dark is a horrific defensive typing that doesn’t really check much of any of the meta’s top Special threats. Could ditch Dragon Tail for Claw or Earthquake, and go fully offensive Pivot. At that point I feel like you’re just better off running Booster Acro.
I’m just forcing the seemingly viable options onto a set to try and find one other than DD that works lol. The only other one I can see working is possibly a scarf set since EQ Knock U-turn and Iron Head has pretty good coverage.
 
Set diversity? I mean, I could just be "normal" and use Tera Flying Acrobatics like everybody else. But that would be artificially limiting the mon into a single set/niche. This is one of my biggest pet peeves.
You know what I completely agree with you on the set diversity thing and the worst part about roaring moon (imo) is that it really doesn't have set diversity besides...choice band (which is very flawed)? This is why I usually put dragonite above roaring moon as a better dragon type because while dragonite is technically less powerful it has really good priority multiscale and most importantly (for this conversation) set diversity. Why use what is essentially a one trick pony in roaring moon besides to Tera Flying sweep and that is the big thing that holds roaring moon back.
 
I know a little bit more than the average Joe on game design. So I understand mechanics and how Quark Drive might interact in an OU metagame. While this doesn't mean I'm always right, I generally understand the mechanics beyond what might be considered conventional metagame wisdom.
actual degree-holding and published game designer here to tell you that you are very much out of your depth. if you actually did detailed analysis of roaring moon as a mon, its kit, its defensive profile, and the metagame as a whole, you'd realize that moon's utility tools aren't immediate enough progress-makers to reliably put it into a defensive utility role. having 105/101 special bulk, knock, and u-turn doesn't automatically mean "slap a vest on it and the set will be good", especially when the mon in question is insane as a mid-to-late-game dd sweeper and also really good as a banded breaker. i don't usually like to bring opportunity cost in when weighing the merits of sets because multiple things can be good at the same time, but roaring moon's so good at making progress offensively that the opportunity cost of doing virtually anything else with it is devastating. on a mon like this, the bulk is a bonus, not the main feature you should build around
Set diversity? I mean, I could just be "normal" and use Tera Flying Acrobatics like everybody else. But that would be artificially limiting the mon into a single set/niche. This is one of my biggest pet peeves.
moon is by no means limited to tera flying acrobatics on ddance sets. tera ground's been rising in popularity recently and some sets even forgo acrobatics altogether for roost or taunt. tera dragon outrage is also an option—you see it more on band, but it's definitely workable on booster ddance as a late-game kill-everything click with the proper teammates to take care of the fairies beforehand. it's not pigeonholed into only one set at all, and this isn't even bringing up the band set and the rare loaded dice scale shot set
 
Last edited:
Set diversity? I mean, I could just be "normal" and use Tera Flying Acrobatics like everybody else. But that would be artificially limiting the mon into a single set/niche. This is one of my biggest pet peeves.
I appreciate the effort because I love legal Mega Salamen- erhm cough Roaring Moon. Unfortunately, Special Defensive sets just aren’t it. Roaring Moon is an offensive mon that can very softly check a few dudes/gals that happen to mostly be physical, in a pinch. It neither a wall nor a pivot.

The “set diversity” I’ve used has been all of two sets, both kind of neat:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off / Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

Used it on rain to softly check Ogerpon-W and Rillaboom.

Roaring Moon @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Scale Shot
- Knock Off
- Fire Fang
- Dragon Dance

Cool set I used on sun but still not as good as the standard DD because Tusk, Zama, Kingambit is the meta just accept it smh.
 
So I've been messing around with various Roaring Moon sets to explore the very underrated set diversity. You know, stuff like tera Fairy or Tera Dragon Outrage with Iron Head. Anything but the cliche Tera Flying Acrobatics sets that everyone uses too much of.

So my latest experiment is AV Roaring Moon:

Roaring Moon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 200 HP / 100 SpD / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Dragon Tail
- Scale Shot

I wanted to try it with Wish Support like some of the AV Scizor teams. So I put together some junk with Alomomola to test it on low ladder. I have to say it isn't bad. It can do pretty good into a lot of special attackers like Darkrai, Iron Moth, Zapados, Iron Crown, Gholdengo, Sun Venusaur, and Glowking. Conditionally, you can do decent into Moltres, Raging Bolt, and Walking Wake depending on circumstances.

The biggest issue I found is that it is kinda hard to build around it as a defensive mon. A lot of hazard setters (which you really want because Knock Off and stuff) share similar vulnerability to types like Ice, Bug, Fighting, or maybe Fairy. This gets worse if you want Tusk to be your clear. I've not properly wrapped my head around how I'd like to build around it. But I do think it is viable.

Priority Hurricane with Double STAB isn't necesarrily bad, especially if you have a power boosting item like Choice Specs. You are going off high base power so the bonus multiplier stacking is really abusable in the right situations. The biggest problem is that it can be unreliable. But if you think about it, Talonflame doesn't need to worry about any hazards besides rocks. It's similar to running non-Boots D-nite in that way.

this seems like a cool concept. unfortunately in the forums there are many who like arguing back n forth and putting down others, particularly those who are lower elo. seems like a sorry pastime but who am i to judge. because of that culture i rarely bother commenting here, thought i’d pitch in tho~

there are plenty of unconventional sets/mons that see success at high ladder. look thru rmt and you’ll see scarf harcanine balance, bellibolt rain, sudowoodo ho, cudsap berry serp ho peaking top 10+. obviously these mons don’t work on any random team you have to build around them.
fact is if a newcomer brought them up in the forums they would be piled on by the comments you’re getting. everything has potential, the difference between a bad set and an innovation is what you do with it. prove these people wrong and bring it to high ladder. posting in the forums won’t get you anywhere since everyone loves arguing here, but nobody argues with ladder success. cheers <3
 
The main issue I think with an AV Roaring Moon is that it doesn't do a good deal that makes it better than most SpD Utility mons we have in the tier, regardless of if it's competent in the role in its own right. I can't quite see what its niche is over things like SpD Gliscor, Tinkaton, or rarer things like Mandibuzz that allows the rest of your team to experiment with it slotted in over another option for the spot.

Moon has a good set of traits for variety within a role, but it doesn't really go deep enough with anything besides its offensive tools to outright change its role completely rather than supplement the attacker role: Roost, for example, can patch up damage against a passive opponent, but it doesn't have a particularly great way to disrupt things beyond hitting back like how some mons will set Hazards or throw status around. This compared to how Gholdengo has things like Trick, Nasty Plot, a much stronger defensive typing, and GaG that it can elect to focus on to win/lose to a different collection of Pokemon that little in OU can replicate with the same efficiency.
 
Back
Top