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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Moyashi said:
It's rather easy to exploit the forced use of Tera by the rest of Darkrai's team which is why i've never been a fan of this kind of argument, since it often puts the opponent in a lose of resources.

Before I touch on the next bit, I wanna address the offensive counterplay you listed before. Gambit/Dragonite is good, but it does struggle with Wisp variants as Darkrai being able to cripple both goes a long way to aiding its teammates to sweep later as they're threatened less by the burned prio users. Vacuum Wave Valiant... how many people are using that? Val already has crowded moveslots on every single set and I can't think of a reason you'd ever want it over the many better options. Rilla can only really revenge kill and Rilla actually does struggle a bit into certain Darkrai structures that tend to pack fat offensive resists to its grassy glide which makes it not as useful as you'd think. Banded Scizor is fine, if a bit hard to fit sometimes but it's a good answer I'll give you that. Specs Raging Bolt though... can't comment on how practical that actually is since I haven't seen it used in higher level play but I'm personally not a fan of it in concept because it's dependance on a priority move that fails if the opponen doesn't attack actually can be really exploitable, especially by protect users which are common on Balance.

For the record, I appreciate you bringing these examples. I think it's helpful and adds to discussion a lot. That said, I do have issues with some of them mainly because they're rather circumstantial answers. Obviously Kingambit may check Darkrai without Wisp/FB, or Dragonite/Gambit can help vs it without Wisp or FB+Ice Beam, but it's difficult to gleam what it's running from the outset of battle and potentially guessing wrong can give the Darkrai user a massive advantage. This goes for Zama and Tusk too which get ruined by wisp variants (and knock off cripples Zama). This is all disregarding the threat of Specs which has such immediate power that you'd want to respect its possibility quite highly. Switching in Zama expecting nasty plot only to eat a specs sludge bomb is nasty.
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You're right about Wisp Darkrai having a huge advantage over the Dnite+Gambit core. That's mb and yeah in that case Darkrai can really cripple them. Idk if Wisp+ NP is a set, because that combination was abot stopping NP Darkrai. However, it's also true that we don't know Darkrai's set from the get go. So I think you made a lot of solid arguments aganist some answers and I agree with them.

VW IVal is something i've seen a couple of times on the ladder (I mean 1800s) but it's quite rare tho. If I'm being honest idk the purpose of having it XD but since I've seen like 4-5 times I wanted to mention it. And finally RBolt with specs is a bit underated imo. Hits like a truck and I think it can be a really good wallbreaker (I've faced from time to time and it's pretty good imo) . However, really dependent on landing the 50/50 as you've said, that's a solid point.

Moyashi said:
Now then, I don't disagree about Wellspring or Kyurem necessarily (Roaring Moon actually has fairly adequate counterplay right now between priority, chip and contact punishing, sticky barb clef and other strategies), the difference is that these pokemon aren't as volatile in their set possibilities which makes prepping for them more straightforward. I'd love to axe Kyurem too, and don't care for Wellspring, but I think But Darkrai's versatility and how punishing guessing the wrong set can be is, I believe, too much.

Not sure what Raging Bolt is listed for though. Undeniably great, but it's also honestly the most overhyped pokemon in terms of presence and impact. It rarely ever sweeps because it's something fairly straightforward to prep for and it's much more prone to chip due to its low speed and often being drawn in to defensively check things, which results in it being fairly easy to limit longterm. Again, great mon but I don't think it's anywhere remotely close to the big three balance breakers, let alone problematic.
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As for RMoon, I think that once more sets get developed it can snowball a lot. But yeah for now it can solid answers

Rbolt is not problematic and in fact I don't think it should be on the survey for example. However, excepting Ting Lu, it has ways around all of its answers. That's what I tried to say. RBolt shouldn't be looked upon and it's lowkey healthy to the meta imo.
 
Long time no see my fellow shitposters I see the usual ppl are still going strong at it!!!

Here's my take I think kingambit should be ssss tier. Iron head is the broken move btw. If u misplayed and the enemy fat mon gna heal just go for iron head flinch get 1 to 2 of em and ko it with kowtow. Or if u play gambit mirrors just sd and iron head flinch them and sucker next turn. Chance to rob ppl of games = extra points :blobthumbsup:

Also for whoevers saying darkrai broken, absolutely not. "Nasty plot on forced switches" most of these sposedly forced out mons can do a lot of dmg to darkrai if they stay in, and the general consensus in sv ou u stay in like monkey on everything for fear of enemy setting up. It should be corrected to "nasty plot and take 70% hp dmg". Maybe if darkrai got quiver Dance or geomancy then sure lol

Haters gna hate
 
Usage stats big changes since May

:Landorus-Therian: 7th (17.6%) -> 6th (19.6%) - 11% jump in usage
:Raging Bolt: 11th (15.5%) -> 7th (18.7%) - 20% jump in usage
:Dragonite: 16th (12.7%) -> 9th (16.6%) - 30% jump in usage
:Darkrai: 15th (13.7%) -> 12th (15.5%) - 13% jump in usage
:Roaring Moon: 6th (18.7%) -> 13th (15.1%) - 19% drop in usage
:Glimmora: 12th (15.3%) -> 15th (12.9%) - 16% drop in usage
:Primarina: 17th (12.6%) -> 19th (11.3%) - 11% drop in usage
:Iron Treads: 23rd (8.7%) -> 21st (10.7%) - 24% jump in usage
:Hatterene: 25th (8.2%) -> 23rd (9.4%) - 16% jump in usage
:Ting-Lu: 30th (6.8%) -> 24th (8.0%) - 17% jump in usage
:Corviknight: 22nd (8.8%) -> 25th (7.8%) - 11% drop in usage
:Enamorus: 24th (8.4%) -> 29th (7.3%) - 14% drop in usage
:Clodsire: 32nd (6.2%) -> 36th (5.1%) - 17% drop in usage
:Skarmory: 42nd (3.9%) -> 39th (4.9%) - 24% jump in usage
:Iron Crown: 35th (5.5%) -> 41st (4.4%) - 19% drop in usage
 
With all this discussion of whether Darkrai is broken or not, I wonder out of the pokemon that got banned this gen, what pokemon do you consider the most broken?

I for one think it'd be: Flutter Mane, it only lasted 2 days in the tier but we all know how busted it was, especially when you remember in how many tier it's been banned.
 
:Ampharos: 336th (0.00181%) -> 319th (0.00663%)

Slowly but surely. At this pace, Ampharos will be OU in under 1,000 months. Yes!! It is happening!

UnusualBoy
With all this discussion of whether Darkrai is broken or not, I wonder out of the pokemon that got banned this gen, what pokemon do you consider the most broken?

I for one think it'd be: Flutter Mane, it only lasted 2 days in the tier but we all know how busted it was, especially when you remember in how many tier it's been banned.
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:sv/Terapagos stellar:- Am I a joke to you?
 
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UnusualBoy said:
With all this discussion of whether Darkrai is broken or not, I wonder out of the pokemon that got banned this gen, what pokemon do you consider the most broken?

I for one think it'd be: Flutter Mane, it only lasted 2 days in the tier but we all know how busted it was, especially when you remember in how many tier it's been banned.
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This gen? Flutter mane for sure. Most broken mon that was ever allowed at the start of a generation? Remember when we allowed zygarde complete at the beginning of sun and moon lol?
 
So what contributed to Primarina's drop off? Did anything it matches poorly into start rising?
 
Finchinator said:
Flutter Mane was the most broken this generation.
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Yes, Booster Energy and sun support makes it a powerhouse, OHKOing a Bulky Kingambit with a Choice Specs Tera Fairy Moonblast at max SpA.

Did you think Blissey was a counter for it, when it has Tera Psychic Psyshock that can 2HKO it, If Blissey has Tera Dark, it gets 2HKOed by Choice Specs Tera Fairy Moonblast.

It can learn Draining Kiss to get its HP back, weaker than Moonblast, but it becomes 60 BP at Fairy Tera, take note that Draining Kiss makes contact.

With Tera Rock, it amps Flutter Mane's special defense even more in sand making it live a Make it Rain from Gholdengo under sandstorm. (However the Rare Steel Beam has 75% chance to OHKO a +1 SpD Flutter Mane, Modest make Gholdengo get the OHKO on a Calm Mind boosted Flutter Mane)

Tera Normal makes Flutter Mane bait ghost type attacks while giving a free turn to set up.

If you have teammates to cripple opponents with status (Such as Glimmora), Hex hits harder than Shadow Ball alone.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 380-448 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Flutter Mane Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 616-726 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Finchinator said:
Prima is really good at trading select kills and soft checking things, but games where it 2-for-1s Pokemon are less common now. The metagame pressures it a lot ultimately. I do think it’s still very good though and has a few practical sets.
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I currently made a team thats actually pretty decent (gotta likely kick out Heatran though) but it literally dies to Prima cause I have like three good steel hits but literally ZERO available poison moves
 
The more I use Covert Cloak, the more I feel it is a really underrated item. If you have a Garg weakness, you can just put cloak on something that otherwise deals with it and it won't threaten your team so much. You block Mortal Spin and Nuzzle and don't get stat drops from attacking moves.

I haven't yet done enough testing with it to know if OU has enough options for this, but about that Darkrai hax... If you can get a mon that can deal with Rai and afford to run this item, you at least mitigate that part of the equation. Maybe a couple lower tier mons like Comfey or Fezandipiti?

As for my opinion on Darkrai, it's still borderline. HO doesn't really care. But teams that aren't really fast do. To me, the biggest issue is how difficult it has been to scout and the damage it does while you try to figure out the set. I do wonder Covert Cloak can mitigate this a bit. You take care of the hax. Wisp and NP turns are still considerations, but at least it becomes maybe a bit more predictable.
 
Finchinator said:
Prima is really good at trading select kills and soft checking things, but games where it 2-for-1s Pokemon are less common now. The metagame pressures it a lot ultimately. I do think it’s still very good though and has a few practical sets.
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Tera poison into AV Primarina is quite the good balance breaker that shits on a lot of frailer special attackers if you play your tera on it, especially Darkrai which has no realistic answer against tera poison AV Primarina unless it runs a psychic move which it probably won't do

I think balance/bulky offense has ways to beat Darkrai semi consistently when we take defensive tera into account as av Primarina and av iron crown can both muscle through Darkrai somewhat easily if they defensively tera because if either of them tera Darkrai is taking a lot of damage from both and won't be able to do much back to them but both with good tera usage can allow them to bullshit past Darkrai. Darkrai struggles into things that can defensively tera on it and turn the tables on it, or mons that can out offense it and speedtie and or outspeed like Weavile or Zamazenta.

You know I'm not the biggest fan of tera creating artificial powercreep and unnecessary mind games but you know? The intricate balance it brings is kinda neat.
 
Bold School said:
The more I use Covert Cloak, the more I feel it is a really underrated item. If you have a Garg weakness, you can just put cloak on something that otherwise deals with it and it won't threaten your team so much. You block Mortal Spin and Nuzzle and don't get stat drops from attacking moves.

I haven't yet done enough testing with it to know if OU has enough options for this, but about that Darkrai hax... If you can get a mon that can deal with Rai and afford to run this item, you at least mitigate that part of the equation. Maybe a couple lower tier mons like Comfey or Fezandipiti?

As for my opinion on Darkrai, it's still borderline. HO doesn't really care. But teams that aren't really fast do. To me, the biggest issue is how difficult it has been to scout and the damage it does while you try to figure out the set. I do wonder Covert Cloak can mitigate this a bit. You take care of the hax. Wisp and NP turns are still considerations, but at least it becomes maybe a bit more predictable.
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Cloak does "answer" Garg, but it's a mediocre item otherwise which is a fact that hasn't changed honestly. It also is not an item you can just throw on a mon because it has such a major opportunity cost, and there are many many better items to be running right now. Something like Ghold can run it without much drawback (though still losing to classic Curse+EQ garg) but most mons have a hard time with it because knock off is so prevalent and finding a mon that can run Cloak, not be a common knock target AND not be bothered by losing out on other items is really hard.
 
BolTingBlazie said:
Tera poison into AV Primarina is quite the good balance breaker that shits on a lot of frailer special attackers if you play your tera on it, especially Darkrai which has no realistic answer against tera poison AV Primarina unless it runs a psychic move which it probably won't do
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Darkrai has access to Psyshock allowing to bypass Primarina's Assault Vest, however it has 56.3% chance to OHKO if Darkrai isn't running Modest nature which it OHKOes Tera Poison Primarina.

Tera Psychic allows Darkrai to always OHKO Tera Poison Primarina with Psyshock.

If Darkrai decides to run a physical set to counter Primarina, a Life Orb boosted Ground type Tera Blast OHKOes it when Primarina is Teralized to Poison / Steel. Also Primarina loses its Dark type resist when it teralizes, it gets OHKOed by a +2 Life Orb Knock Off.

252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Darkrai Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Primarina: 338-400 (105.2 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Darkrai Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Primarina: 411-485 (128 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's base 90 Attack is decent to not get walled by Special walls such as Blissey and Clodsire and remove their items with Knock Off, it can also catch off guard faster opponents with Sucker Punch. Even Darkrai learns Swords Dance as well.
 
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