Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Magcargo]

Mostly washed post-Volc test, so my opinions don't really matter but some thoughts ig.

Enjoyment is a 2. Building teams just isn't fun. Feels like it is just easier to cheese wins by running MU fishes and the like. Very difficult to cover everything without Unaware + Priority on every team. Again though, this is just moreso a skill issue. Competitiveness is a 6. If you have a passable team, it will be easier to win and unique combinations and strategies are still rewarded. Its just that creating those kind of teams is a hurrculian task lol.

Only mon I gave a 4 on was Woger. Mon is pretty bullshit IMO, speed is too high, coverage is too good, and all around it is just brainless as shit. Ah yeah, its awesome running "counters" like Kyurem and Raging Bolt only to die to +2 Play Rough 100% of the time, as its quite easy for it to make doubles into Ting-Lu & get free SDs. Being forced to run dogshit Acrobatics Red Card Mola to "beat" this ain't really a healthy meta development IMO compared to other options like Mirror Coat or Tickle.

Gave Darkrai a 3. Darkrai IMO is still playable even if its a pain in the ass, mainly because its initial power is middling. Only set I consider OP is NP Boots 3A, the rest of its sets are decent but don't feel as overwhelming as this set. I consider Darkrai's stronger utiltiy against HO to be a big selling point if anything - and even then it can struggle with booster sweepers + speed control. Personally when I play more balanced structures, I don't feel as overwhelmed against Darkrai as I do against Woger. RNG elements are annoying. That being said, it going would be nice to open up speed tiers lol.

Bolt is a 3. If you play safe like I do with "non-safe" builds its still a massive pain in the ass, but that's moreso a skill issue on my end. I'm not really good at making Bolt-proof teams.

Kyurem is a 2. Mixed sets are bullshit IMO but I don't mind most of its other sets. 90% of teams run GKing beause its an amazing, borderline busted mon that is able to get a ton of reward off of just clicking Chilly to slow pivot endlessly into whatever it wants. Gking / Mola are the mons doing the lifting for Kyurem IMO and their support can be giving to 5 other mons and likely lead to them being about as effective as Kyu (Ursaluna in particular comes to mind). Kyurem leaving won't result in a decrease to Gking usage.

Gambit + Zama are a 2.

As for notable write-ins, I requested Magearna and Gliscor.

 

[veti]

Sympathize with Pro Ban​

3/5 -- Darkrai feels oppressive into balance and I support it being suspected, but I could be convinced to vote either way.

1/5 -- I think Ogerpon is very manageable due to its hazard weakness and ease of revenge killing with only average bulk and speed + not being able to defensive tera as well as most other mons (shedding weakness and gaining spdef boost is still very nice but its not suddenly gaining an immunity and 5 resists). True counters to it are admittedly limited but I feel its easy enough to outplay for every teamstyle.

1/5 -- Boots is defensively very manageable, specs gets 6-0d by stealth rock, physical dd is physical dd, mixed dd is actually kinda broken vs stall but its stall and its still not an autowin at all, all sets are pretty slow. For both Kyurem and Ogerpon, I can def see why people want them banned but I just disagree.

Meme Territory​

1/5 -- It provides a lot of dissuasion and revenge killing which is always nice, Kingambit does have silly calcs but its held back by its checks and counters being really good (tusk, zama, valiant, encore pon, bolt, dozo as some examples).

1/5 -- I don't feel like writing more. (Wrote this out of order and I want to be done with this)

1/5 -- Idt I need to even give my opinion on AoA sets, IronPress provides nice utility and can be a potent wincon however I think its decisively not broken because of the number of answers every style has, zama can pick and choose its counters to an extent but some things it just doesn't beat unless the opponent throws or lets them get low (at which point you outplayed and deserve to sweep). It is at its best against offense however I feel its still entirely manageable using offense with reasonable amount of effort in the builder, even with shit like triple Dark.

Writeins (I forgot the waters)​

2/5 -- Not broken, but twave is broken if you get unlucky and set variety can be a pain while checking it in the builder is more restrictive than all the 1s imo.

2/5 -- Not broken, but SD is restrictive to check for certain styles, utility is perfectly fine in kyurem ogerpon meta imo.

?/5 -- I think there's a high chance that new additions to OU such as Ogerpon, Wisp Pult, Mola, Sinistcha, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, and Zamazenta could be enough to handle it in addition to its checks from pre ban. Maybe it finds another broken set but the point of suspect tests is to test.

?/5 -- See Palafin but with different list of checks and counters. It also got quickbanned with only a 3 on the survey. For context, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire (got a 4 and turned out not broken!), and Gholdengo all scored the same or higher on recent surveys, and that was in a pretty chaotic early meta which didn't leave time to "l2p" against it. Maybe its broken, we should test it though.

 

[Bold School]

So about Kyurem. You can run Covert Cloak for Freeze, but it's hard to find mons that are good in OU and don't need AV for the Choice Specs set. The best things I found besides Glowking are Tera Steel Primm and Av Iron Crown. Comfey can also live a hit and threatens to heal back with Draining Kiss. Scizor is a great check for a more offensive option, particularly if Gambit or Crown aren't already on the team. Some offensive Fire types like Iron Moth or even Harcanine are good to live an Ice move and threaten out Kyurem, so long as they don't EP or Sub on the switch.

I find that more often than not, most well built teams that aren't more passive like stall can threaten Kyurem out a couple times and RK it. The physical set also typically need a DD, and the issue with it DDing on purely physical sets is that you can revenge it with priority or passive teams can run Dozo.

As for bans, I would probably support a ban on any of Kyurem, Darkrai, or Waterpon for various reasons. However, I don't feel that strongly about it and none of them are 5s for me. I have come around on Kyurem and no sleep Darkrai a bit and voted 4s. Kyurem was always borderline. It didn't jump a level for me just because it didn't start abusing enough new tech. I'm still wary of its potential to, though. I think mixed DD, Life Orb, and Body Press special attacking sets all have the potential to even further limit counterplay. But I haven't seen enough of this abuse so far in practice to vote 5 and fully change my former neutral opinion on Kyurem. Only partially. My fear is that, if we suspect it a second time and still don't ban it, the Meta around it will evolve and we'll be stuck with that.

My biggest problem with Darkrai is the speed tier. For something so difficult to switch into, it's really fast. So are a few other things, which is why I cannot justify higher than a 4, but Darkrai's typing really complicates things. Dark is just a really strong type. The 90/90 physical and special bulk is also obnoxious with Tera Poison. In general, physical attackers have more good counterplay options available right now than special attackers. This is partly why a powerful attacking Weavile at the same speed tier is strong yet not nearly as problematic. Darkrai also hits a lot of mons teams rely on to otherwise deal with special attackers like Glowking, Iron Crown, and Primm. Weavile with Poison jab wouldn't matter to most of its physical checks like Zama, Corv, or Dozo the same way special walls like Primm hate the Poison coverage.

Wellspring is still a 3 for me. I know what it does as a wallbreaker, but 110 speed just isn't fast in gen 9. It's predictable, hazard weak, and fairly easy to RK. You can build to deal with this mon, but you do have to compromise your team structures if you don't already use Grass and Dragon types. To me, the biggest advantage in getting rid of it is to lose the common water immunity. But I also know why slower teams have trouble dealing with it. Offensive teams shouldn't, however, and the possibility of Play Rough isn't too difficult to play around.

Kingambit is also a 3 for me just because of how it abuses Tera, but I think it's probably good for the tier as a glue mon. It would otherwise be a 2.

Bolt and Zama aren't broken. I voted 2 for them.

I don't think anything is a 5 to me except Roaring Moon, which wasn't listed and continues to be majorly overlooked as a threat. I know a lot of the qualified players don't see it this way and we sadly wouldn't get the votes for a ban. So I get why it wasn't included in the survey, but folks should really be looking more into this thing.

 

[Avira]

5 - I said this was broken before it was dropped, and it's extremely dumb now that the tier has slowed down to an extent

3 - I can live with it, but it's not the top priority at the moment although it forces defensive Teras on many mons due to its high initial power.

4 - This is a nasty mon with such limited switch-ins. It has so many different sets, many without overlapping counterplay, and I believe the tier would be healthier without it.

2 - Strong and does Kingambit things, but there are enough checks to it at the moment with Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Encore (Ogerpon-Wellspring, Iron Valiant, Dragonite, Samurott-Hisui, and Primarina, for example), Will-o-Wisp from Moltres and so on, and Thunder Clap from Raging Bolt.

1 - This is completely balanced and not broken. Raging Bolt's STAB options both having common immunities alongside its low speed and vulnerability to Encore make it plenty fair although still powerful.

2 - A very good mon that makes teambuilding easier while not being too hard to account for. It's a top threat given its high speed and ability to boost its bulk and damage output at the same time, but it's not broken.

I pray we do not test Palafin or Urshifu-Rapid Strike. We do not need those mons ruining the meta. Tiering action should focus on what is already in the tier instead of dropping Ubers mons that would extremely punishing to balance cores.

 

[Roshino]

Enjoyment 6
I've been playing more recently since I've been trying some new stuff (dropped to the 1400-1500 range but that's because I suck lmao) but I still get that burning feeling of "nah... really don't wanna" for the "just one more game" before bed, which bodes poorly to how fun a game is lol
Competitiveness 7
Better than before, not ideal - but on its way I guess

I didn't really memorize the exact 4s and 5s, but the reasoning stands:

4. It is just a pile of stats + early gen inane coverage that should NOT have dropped from Ubers. We fuckin took its signature ability away from it and it is still doing what is has always done. Too strong, too fast. Have we gone clinically insane? When did 135 spatk/125 speed become considered acceptable in OU? Not a 5 maybe just because vulnerability to U-Turn and no healing makes it a bit more sketchy to switch in though I'm pretty sure that is just my bias because I like running voltturn cores.

4. It can break teams like few, it is very oppressive and all that. The only reason I'm not voting a straight up 5 is because it requires some sketchy Trailblaze sets to acquire enough speed not to be revenge killed/forced out, and it can't just break the entire tier apart with unboosted neutral damage. It has to SD/get a SE hit, etc. - it still follows the general rules of other sweepers.

5. I don't think I have to extend myself here - it seems there has been a local consensus for now.

5. Get me out. The thing is trying to brainwash us all by dropping Ubers and making we get used to having to run multiple dedicated checks to try and win 50-50s. One of the recent top teams on ladder owes a chunk of its success to running fucking PROBOPASS to bait and trap the fucker early game.

3. Kingambit lite. It's not quite kingambit levels of bullshit because BE energy sets become much weaker if forced out once (which means it can't do a similar job to Gambit which checks half the tier throughout the game to then come back in full force late game). It also doesn't quite have the guess-the-tera minigame that compounds Gambit's issues.

3. I have been bringing it up in every survey before this and I feel vindicated. It has created a TERRIBLE precedent for what is considered overpowered in the metagame, and only now people are realizing having a well-distributed 660 BST monster in the tier is simply not the way. Don't even come at me with the movepool argument - it has its best STAB options, it has enough tools to change its sets and to perform very well IronPress, AOA, Banded, I think I saw a high-rated RMT with Muscle Band? Fuck. The reason I'm not voting it a 5 is perhaps temporary: when people realise its offensive sets are actually nuts we end up in another guess-the-set-or-get-crippled situation. Too fast, too strong, too bulky, and eventually too unpredictable.

-

Honorable mention: Gliscor. Kyurem is kinda keeping it down I guess? But we know where this is going lol

 

[Vert]

1
literally fad of the week. the only broken element of this 'mon is how all the moves have hax factor (poison, freeze, flinch, focus dictating some games) but that's not enough to kick it. the reason darkrai usage has gone up recently is because it's the only stable ice beam option on offense. kyurem is a fucking dogshit pokemon, not splashable at all. deoxys is a wet noodle that doesn't ohko gliscor with ice beam. speaking of, if we talking non-ice beam utility, nasty plot deoxys is much more restricting to fat due to its speed tier. tour players however are always late on trends and will whine about it in a couple weeks. this is one of many waves that come-and go. first it was breaking swipe goug then wellspring then zama now this.

1
metagame has adapted well. keeps alomomola aids under control. why should you be able to wish + flip 30 times in a game... i don't understand how that's considered more skill-expressive than out-manuevering a wall-breaker. many players hate the tier because of tera but this shit can only tera into 1 type btw. lmfao.

1
it's trash, always has been. i rarely use it. gking had 90% usage before this 'mon even came out because it's uninteractive nonsense. that ain't changing.

3
yes we are living in a timeline where we're going to ban darkrai wellspring before fucking kingambit. insane pokemon, gets a 3 solely due to this fact.

3
people are underestimating how easily this thing can win. imagine crying about wellspring and darkrai when the best 'mon hard switches into both, clicks iron defense, and reverse sweeps your bitch ass. quite funny how normalized we became to zamazenta winning game after game. but of course because it's more of a threat to offense and not fat slowking-g toxic gliscor boots dragapult salt cure we give it benefit of the doubt. there are more replays of this bastard sweeping than any other threat listed here.

2
i think we should keep raging bolt for as long as possible due to recent zapdos usage. i've also had enough of seeing kingambit win end-games. this thing existing with tera-fairy guarantees you won't get reverse swept. opens up new offenses and is a breathe of fresh air honestly. still disgusting though so giving it a 2.

finally i want to say balance being mid doesn't mean the tier is bad. nor should balance not being the best playstyle mean we should ban stuff until balance is good and offense becomes mid. i like the tier right now and against any suspect tests or bans. if the metagame is sheist then i'm not voting ban on shit.

 

[Bedal Roscoe]

Thank you Vert.

People will never be satisfied until all strong offensive mons will be banned. Endless loop.

Kyurem may be oppressive (and uncheckable with the right set) but it doesn't deserve a ban imo.

Waterpon is a wonderful wallbreaker and totally manageable with the right checks or easy rk (can't count all the games my pon has been blocked by a defensive mon with unaware or good typing...).
Besides, how are we supposed to make big holes in the opposing team if we remove all our nice tools?

But Garganacl and Gliscor are perfectly fine, huh?

 

[Roshino]

Thank you Vert.

People will never be satisfied until all strong offensive mons will be banned. Endless loop.

Kyurem may be oppressive (and uncheckable with the right set) but it doesn't deserve a ban imo.

Waterpon is a wonderful wallbreaker and totally manageable with the right checks or easy rk (can't count all the games my pon has been blocked by a defensive mon with unaware or good typing...).
Besides, how are we supposed to make big holes in the opposing team if we remove all our nice tools?

But Garganacl and Gliscor are perfectly fine, huh?

(not-so) Quick disclaimer because I think it adds to the nuance of this discussion:

I'm Gliscor hater #1. I play balance mostly because it's more comfortable for me and I'm the first to say that I don't think I have ever seen a single Pokémon cause so much havoc by itself. How many matches where the best play is to just counter enemy Gliscor with your own Gliscor and just stare at eachother. Like you said, Kyurem is oppressive and uncheckable and it seems to be pushing it down far enough for now.

Garganacl-wise, I have advocated to how I believe it is straight up overpowered but (and I quote myself) it is so mind-numbing to play that people rarely ever play it. It also requires you to kinda teambuild around it bc it hogs tera but it is actually busted, it just isn't easy to splash into a team with no thought. All that to say that it is busted, it's just that people don't give it much attention because it doesn't have the explosive and shiny -100% bubble when it moves. I kinda gave up on bringing it up for that reason.

Now, like you said, Kyurem is oppressive and uncheckable with the right set. And like Vert above said, G-King is everywhere to check it. Now, the only consistent and powerful check being the meta isn't actually all that healthy because now even MORE people will be running it (or get crippled in the matchup). It is compounding the meta centralization issue by turning it into kind of a straight up necessity in fatter balance structures, which just cuts into meta diversity.

Balance doesn't have to be the best playstyle for the tier to be healthy, but we shouldn't devolve into Smash Melee running the same dudes to avoid getting punked by matchup volatility.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

But Garganacl and Gliscor are perfectly fine, huh?

I'm going to publicly state for the record once again that Gilscor should go. It was correct for it to go the first time and it's correct for it go now. I say this with only utmost hatred and disdain in my heart.

For Garg, I've never lost to it that wasn't my own mistake or misplay. Whether it being due to me being a Tink enjoyer or a Sinsi chad, I've not particularly found it problematic in comparison to Gilscor. Especially when Gilscor will be full on status immune unless you do meme sets.

 

[Bunger Royale]

Enjoyment: 8. I think we're currently in a pretty good place for Gen 9 right now.

Competitiveness is a 7. There are a few borderline ban worthy threats in the tier but nothing feels extremely unfair.

3: Darkrai is very scary, but I'm not entirely convinced that it needs to go immediately. People have been discovering new movesets lately, and it's definitely a problem, but it might end up being a bit overhyped.

3: This isn't a Mon that I have struggled against too much, but I understand why people want it gone. I kinda go back and forth on it, but I think a suspect test is fair.

2: Zamazenta is extremely powerful, borderline too powerful for OU. But I feel like it has enough answers, and brings enough positives to the tier that I'm still in the anti ban camp right now.

3: Voted 3 on Kyurem but maybe I should have given it a 4. It can absolutely demolish teams that don't use very specific counterplay, and unlike Zamazenta or Waterpon, I don't think it brings any real positives to the tier.

1: Non issue right now. I'm surprised it's here to begin with, but this might be an unpopular opinion.

1: Probably should have given it a 2, but eh. I feel like the Meta has adapted to Gambit. While it's worth keeping an eye on, especially if things like Zama get banned, I don't think it's a big problem right now.

Edit: Changed my mind on a few of these.

goes from a 3 to 4
goes from a 1 to 2
goes from a 3 to 2

 

[WildWave]

: 5

: 3

: 4

: 3

: 2

: 2

Not gonna elaborate much:)

 

[Tio Chico]

Enjoy: I'm not a fan of the current meta, but it's the first time outside of the launch of the game/dlc and suspects that I've actually played more than normal, 3 is the best I can give for now.
Competitiveness: While ladder is still inconsistent with some annoying gimmicks and a lot of guesswork, watching tournament play is a bit more enjoyable, where more dedicated players approach it better. Then a 5.

I elaborated on Policy Review so I won’t repeat myself;
5:
4:

Other mentions: Gholdengo is unhealth. Booster Energy. Formalize Terastal permanence due lack of support and time with this mechanics.

 

[Finchinator]

?/5 -- See Palafin but with different list of checks and counters. It also got quickbanned with only a 3 on the survey. For context, Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire (got a 4 and turned out not broken!), and Gholdengo all scored the same or higher on recent surveys, and that was in a pretty chaotic early meta which didn't leave time to "l2p" against it. Maybe its broken, we should test it though

You’re missing the entire timeline and context of this thing’s ban. You also claimed it had a “different list of checks and counters” yet didn’t name a single one.

Shifu, once people started using it properly some days in, was laughably broken. It powered through resists and didn’t have much of any true counterplay. Going down this rabbit hole would be an all-time mistake.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Since we're discussing possible bans, I'd like to take this opportunity to discuss possible unbans. I had Palafin and Chi-Yu in mind in particular, and I feel the traits that made them overwhelming at the time of their banning would no longer apply in the current meta, or at least, not to the extent of warranting a ban. If this is a good time to talk about this, I'll probably make another post going into detail.

 

[1LDK]

Enjoyment: 7, I have been having a lot of fun during world cup, building, experimenting with the team, etc. I hate the lack of hazard removal options in the tier, but at this point, I have given up on a dengo suspect, so I'm enjoying the tier as much as I can

Competitive: 8, for the hazard removal and for kyurem and darkrai which I'm going to talk about it later, but for now, just you know that it feels semi decent, a bit hard to build but not impossible in the slighest

and both get a 3/5 for the same reason actually, they are kind of a pain to answer, what I mean is that you just nail either flinch or freeze haxes, and you just forfeit by saying "it is what it is". Sure, you can make perfectly reasonable arguments on why they are not broken and how these factors don't make up for it, but I don't think that a suspect down the line regarding these 2 would be considered as a "waste of time", nor would I miss them if the ban hammer comes down for them

they all get a 1, they are 100% not broken and the most you can say is roar zama being cheese, but whatever

this one also gets a 1, but for a different reason, I think oger is not broken in the sense that its possible to pivot around, scout, and It's weak to hazards, but also provides a good defensive utility in water absorb, which makes the mola meta just a nightmare instead of a reality, now, would alomomola become broken with ogerpon-w banned? Not at all, would make the meta incredibly slow, and dare I say, fucking boring? Yes, is this a good argument as to why keep ogerpon in the tier? Maybe, for me, it works and that's all I need

Is there anything else you want us to consider? No

 

[Carl The Turtle]

You’re missing the entire timeline and context of this thing’s ban. You also claimed it had a “different list of checks and counters” yet didn’t name a single one.

Shifu, once people started using it properly some days in, was laughably broken. It powered through resists and didn’t have much of any true counterplay. Going down this rabbit hole would be an all-time mistake.

What about the Palafin argument? Would it ever be worth considering in the current state of the tier?

 

[Finchinator]

What about the Palafin argument? Would it ever be worth considering in the current state of the tier?

I don’t personally think so, but I’m happy to entertain discussion on it when the right time comes.

 

[RS25802580]

5
5
5
3
3
3

People have already given compelling reasoning for all of these so I'm not gonna repeat them.

1
it's trash, always has been. i rarely use it. gking had 90% usage before this 'mon even came out because it's uninteractive nonsense. that ain't changing.

What kind of argument is this lmao

 

[N_Mareanie]

1 Respect the people who voted No Ban on this for the one time
1
1
1
2
2

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Competitive: 3
Enjoyment: 1

3/5 because while I'm not sold on it being broken yet, since while technically it doesn't have switch ins after setting up, I feel as if frailty really does get the best of it at times as well as having to land focus blast and finding NP opportunities is easier said than done in practice. Not opposed to action but I am unsure if it is broken at the moment because aggressive play can really hinder it from being able to sweep and find opportunities to set up. I don't find it as broken as people are saying personally but I get it. I think Waterpon and Kyurem take precedent though as they have been problematic for far longer. I'm skeptical if it is actually broken or not because of the issues it has. Was dropping Darkrai a mistake? Maybe. But I'm still unsure if it's quite a problem yet or if it is like the Gouging Fire situation where people found answers to the sets. Idk I feel like suspecting Darkrai is a waste of time when waterpon and Kyurem have been issues for much longer and the fact that I think Waterpon and Kyurem feel like they are more likely to actually get bans as they don't run into the same small issues Darkrai does

5/5 super restrictive Mon that also has no switchins but unlike Darkrai despite being an ice type it has really good natural bulk and just fires off stupidly powerful attacks and trades too well, get it out of here.

5/5 this should have been gone already, it has the bulk to set up and just be a stupid balance breaker, I don't need to say much more about wellspring since we all know why it is broken.

2/5 Only reason I gave it a 2 is because this thing is genuinely more annoying than Gambit because burn doesn't hinder it at all really and I find it a tiny bit problematic but like it doesn't need action anytime soon. Gave bolt a 2 because it feels more cheap than gambit

and 1/5 Neither are anywhere near broken, even if they are cheap

Bonus one:
3/5 I really do not like this thing, it's an obnoxious matchup fish that has been proving to be a nuisance, but shouldn't be priority when waterpon and Kyurem are here like Darkrai. I think if Kyurem goes roaring moon will probably become dumber though

I said tera as a whole is probably why the matchup fishing is so bad, but that I know I am outspoken and that nothing will happen unless the playerbase switches up on a whim in my comments, so there is that too.

 

[658Greninja]

Enjoyment: 4

Competitive: 4

Like I said earlier, not a fan of the tier. Its a combination of matchup fishing and a few underlying threats.

4

Dropping this in the tier was a mistake in hindsight. If you look at the mons that check Darkrai, our pool is absolutely shallow. Zamazenta can get Knock’d, burnt, or Sludge Bomb poisoned. Tinkaton and Ting-Lu have no reliable recovery. Gambit can get Focus Blasted or Burnt. The supposed 4th moveslot syndrome is more of a 4th moveslot privilege, because Dpulse/Sludge/Ice Beam hits everything minus Gambit who Darkrai can slot in something just for that. Since its checks are so limited, you can pair it with shit that punishes Zama/Gambit like RH Lando or Molt and just win the game slowly. Its also the biggest enabler of Spikes because its a Knocker that invites in Clod/Bliss/Ting-Lu and beats every Knock absorber.

5

Get this out ASAP. Ivy Cudgel is one of the most brainless moves ever and it gets easy entries off Tusk, Primarina clicking Water move, and Mola. Zama is a fake check forced to give up Dauntless Boosts in order to check it. Pult is only switching in once or twice and risking your Pult to a Play Rough or Knock is not ideal. Dnite hates Knock. The rest like Serperior and Rilla are invalidated by U-Turn, Sinistcha gets Knock’d, so the most consistent check is Amoonguss. Cool, but now you’ve invited in Wogre’s partner in crime, Gholdengo who will just start clicking buttons on your passive as hell team cuz you’re running Amoonguss. It’s comically easy to cover Wogre with teammates due to how limited its pool of checks are, the same reason I think Darkrai needs to go. I don’t care if Mola becomes braindead without Wogre around, we could suspect it if the fish becomes too oppressive.

2

It can be a li’l silly, but I think it’s fine. Zama struggles into Balances that already have multiple checks to it by default. Even offense, the playstyle it dominates, can run lures or responses to it that overwhelm Zama before it can start clicking ID. Zapdos and Moltres are seeing play more frequently which hurts Zama. Ghold is also very common on Offense and has several ways of making Zama miserable. It’s Suicune 2.0.

3

Freeze is stupid but Kyurem is alright. Compared to Wogre and Rai, Kyurem has less switch-in opportunities, a less oppressive speed tier, and is vulnerable to SR without Boots, meaning its obscene wallbreaking potential can be limited. DD sets can be kinda stupid with Tera Blast, but that’s more of a Tera Blast issue than a Kyurem one. Balance runs Gking 90% of the time either way because it’s just a really good mon and Gambit is one of the best mons in the tier.

1

Non-issue rn. It can be worn down and pressured offensively. Grounds are pretty much in every team and it’s not difficult to play around its STABs, especially if Encore is run.

2

The meta is littered with Landos, Zamas, Tusks, Encores, and Burn spreaders all over the place. It’s an example of a mon that’s centralizing but not unhealthy. The offensive/defensive utility it holds is unprecedented and I’d find that the tier without Gambit would be worse. Tera Fairy Blast is stupid, but I’ll get to that.


Right now. Previously, this was never an issue but recently in ladder and tours, but now I see that Tera Blast is a problem that is a part of why the tier is so matchup fishy. There’s been an increase of Tera Blast abusers, being able to break through a check outright. It isn’t even just the predictable abusers like Iron Moth or CB Pult, its the setup sweepers looking to break through a specific check like Gambit with Tera Fairy Blast which pushes it and other mons like it over the edge. Even the lesser mons like Dnite and G-Fire become harder to check due to their usage of Tera Blast to obliterate typical checks. Without Tera Blast, DD Kyurem can no longer break past Steels (without EP) and Gambit can’t just click a button to instantly delete Tusk from the game. It would also give us an excuse to retest Volcarona who provided defensive utility but was only pushed over the edge due to Tera Blast.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

You’re missing the entire timeline and context of this thing’s ban. You also claimed it had a “different list of checks and counters” yet didn’t name a single one.

Shifu, once people started using it properly some days in, was laughably broken. It powered through resists and didn’t have much of any true counterplay. Going down this rabbit hole would be an all-time mistake.

Will say I think watershifu was really dumb and I'm way more opposed to retesting it than palafin, which is a mon I'm still not too keen on coming back

Watershifu was really stupid, and I don't want to have to deal with that

 

[BobbyHill]

Given the above tiering survey, here is how I will respond!

4/5 -- Was between 3 and 4 on this, but went with 4. Still wish it got banned earlier this year and wish it did not exist as it would open up so many structures, but for now we still have GKing all over the metagame and there are many avenues to pressure or Tera out of Kyurem trouble, so it is certainly playable. I feel Kyurem deserves a suspect regardless, but I do not view it as a top priority and it tends to be a little cyclical with usage and counterplay, so this is subject to change of course.

Agree that this thing not getting banned shows the flaws of democracy, respectfully disagree that Glowking is true counter play with all the other dangerous special attackers in the tier, freeze chance, the fact that Tera ice 2HKOs, and the random physical sets that basically auto lose for you on switch in.

I think the rest of your analysis is spot on. Maybe I’d rank how enjoyable the meta is a bit lower, but that’s so dependent on your playstyle and skill level.

 

[CTC]

1= fair and honest, 2 = not really an issue yet, 3 = concern for overcentralization, 4 = overcentralizing/unhealthy, 5 = blatant cancer in need of removal

3.5/5 -- Darkrai is now free into balance because volc leaving the tier opened up huge holes for mixed special attackers or special attackers with knock off/greedy coverage to wreak havok on unawares/special walls in general. Darkrai paired with other special/mixed special attackers which mostly have knock or another way of weakening special walls has caused the meta to obsolete special tanks like clod and dirge. Blissey faces the risk of getting tricked or eating psyshocks, and we often see 3-4 special setup guys on one team to overload the special side, with a mixed/physical valiant to accompany the crew. Darkrai by itself is not the broken threat that we must look into, but when paired with bolt, ghold, valiant, and a myriad other special attackers now that volc is free, it can overload many teams on the special side. Volc being gone also caused the decline of stall/very fat teams due to special mons being better breakers than physical mons outside of rare instances like roaring moon/gambit, and volc which itself acted like a special version of zamazenta as a deterrent for special setup being gone further weakened the metagame's defenses against special setup mons. This mon's rise is symptomatic of a unhealthy metagame that favors 3-4 setup mons every game due to how lackluster unawares and countermeasures to fat are, with most of them straight up losing to hazards + a mixed special attacker or simply knock off. This is not an issue with the mon itself, so I would not advocate banning more mons to fix the mistake of banning volc (removing darkrai takes away 1 of like maybe 3 good ice beamers in the tier and makes gliscor even more free). In addition to being so free this mon gets 0.5 tacked on for every move being rng based (dp/ib/sb/fb)

1/5 -- 4 att sets have declined since idef is so free into a lot of offense, not only offensively but having defensive utility. This mon holds back so many problematic setup sweepers and is akin to dondozo without being a momentum sap, and is healthy/essential for the metagame. However, I did like volc being in the meta forcing more edge zamas or tera fire usage, because this mon seems a bit too free as it stands. The darkrai/zama/ghold love triangle (often paired together too) is something volc would have broken up easily.

2/5 -- in volc meta this thing was at least forced to run wave or suffer the fate of being setup fodder. However, this mon as it currently stands, alongside rai and bolt, take huge advantage of the meta phasing out special walls that are hazard weak. Guess the wrong set and rai/ghold can trick a special wall for the other to sweep, and often 3-4 special setup teams are unpunished like 3-4 physical setup teams which have been mostly obsoleted by the presence of zama. Many games end in defensive ghold tera flip sweep, and the plague of 3-4 setup per team that is our current metagame not only discourages diversity but boxes styles in by eliminating stall and a lot of ho styles.

2/5 -- Very essential to the ecosystem to keep midrange fat teams in check and providing more outs for gliscor. This mon also holds back rain and sun sweepers from being brainlessly spammable with its unique body. Weakness to hazards and all statuses, a limited tera, and being mostly predictable does not hold this mon back from doing its job every game, but does ground it from taking off into broken territory.

2/5 -- Boots is manageable, specs weak to rocks, but volc leaving the tier has made mixed dd is one of the reasons stall is unviable because there is no defensive fire to curb this thing. Overall it is not a big threat by itself, but the lack of volc is allowing a lot of special attackers in the tier to get greedier in their set choices to break dedicated special walls, and this is a trend that has happened to mons like rai, val, kyu, and many more since volc's departure. Again, symptomatic of the metagame with a void left by volc

3/5 -- As much as it holds the meta together and curbs mindless ho spam, it is also a cheap mon at the end of the day and never wont be due to the nature of this mon's mechanics. Not much to be explained here but thankfully we have zama val lando tusk and co in the tier

2/5 -- another mon benefitting from volc's absence, as it vs volc is a matter of who sets up first. This mon like rai/ghold is not problematic by itself and holds back may skilless ho strats, while having a god tier body to trade. The mon just got better due to the meta straying away from stall and/or unaware mons that all eventually lose to hazards and knock, but it is essential for the meta

1/5 -- While all other special attackers got better, this guy who had the unique benefit of darts vs volc is left out of the spotlight. Not only is this mon not oppressive now, it fails to trade into many offensive mons making the boots mixed set a lot worse than before.

2/5 -- The mon is now free considering volc is gone, but ghold's rise in popularity keeps it in check. The speed is still essential in curbing many threats from rai to zama, and having an extra out vs gambit is also indispensible.

3/5 -- Due to the meta not having unawares or stalls, and ho lacking muscle to chew through its hp, alongside with a decline in offensive tusk, sd is now becoming more and more free over a utility set. sd is restrictive to check for many midrange styles, and while its utility is fine, we cannot afford to get rid of more ice move and water move users to make the sd set (normal facade eq invented by yours truly circa last scl) overblown.

3.5/5 -- On one hand the taunt bu set used to be cheap and swept many teams on release, on the other we now have many tools from alo, woger, zama, to bolt, kyurem, pult. Band will surely still be a menace but 100 speed makes this mon seem like a more immediate power having and less cheap urshifu rs imo. In addition to its momentum move being wallable by water absorb, I think this mon can be tested and become a great ou staple without being broken.

4.5/5 -- We can suspect this mon again but IMO it is the steroids that make this mon unbalanaced. Not only does scarf in rain have little counterplay in addition to having anti wogerpon measures, its access to sd further makes it cheap behind screens/under webs to blast through any fat not named dondozo, even critting through zama. I think this mon will eventually be too much for ou but theres no harm in testing it out if we see that palafin can be a good healthy fit for the meta.

3/5 -- People cried about this mon having immediate sweeping power but are now opening their eyes to just how much 'immediate power' other special sweepers have such as darkrai/ghold/bolt and val. Those mons are not only faster but hit harder off the bat, and without volc to hold them back these +2 setup mons ravage balance and fat teams like volc never could dream of doing without multiple boosts or exhausting tera. Further, measures used to check volc such as clod, dirge, bliss, and a few more are ineffective vs rai, ghold, and val, who not only have access to super effective moves or mixed capabilities, in addition to the simplest solution to special walls: trick/knock. Volc was the special equivalent to zama and held the metagame together against special threat spam, and despite flame body being a cheap mechanic, it is still an overall honest mon that stopped 3-4 special setup spam + special knocker from ravaging any team with hopes of trying to wall anything. Its absence has lead to a steady decline in fat/full stall due to other special attackers held back by it being good into unwares, while volc itself had to rock the honest boots and has no access to cheap breaking moves for full special walls. This mon needs to come back to the meta asap so we once again have a balance of offense, balance, and stall, instead of this cesspool we call ou that is just 3-4 wincons mashed together next to a rocker and a knocker every single fucking game because it is unpunishable. Before, a poorly built team of wincon spams with a special bias is the recipe for volc countersweep, but now those types of skilless teams are unchecked. We absolutely need this mon back into the meta because no matter what kind of sweeping threat it poses, it has very clear cut and defined outs such as clod, bliss, dirge, rather than the current crop of special attackers who easily have the ability to overwhelm the supposed dedicated 'special walls'. Zama being used in a dondozo role is also reflective of how the metagame favors offensive checks to threats in order to preserve momentum. Special walls being terrible shows that we need an offensive check to the unmitigated threat that is special sweepers with breaking capabilities, because atm those mons are freer than America.

5/5 -- most likely still broken because of the limited amount of counterplay around this mon

5/5 -- Hybrid between weavile and gambit, this mon is likely still too powerful for ou

5/5 -- stored power on legs. If we do complex ban or ban stored entirely, this mon would make a fantastic addition to ou in checking key threats. As it stands, this mon is more toxic than the mons it checks

5/5 -- until the signature move is banned this thing is always going to be too cheap for ou

5/5 -- If we ban rage fist this goes to a 1/5 which, idk why we havent just banned fist and freed ape yet but complex banning is too complex for feeble minds in big 2024 ig

5/5 -- if we complex ban unburden maybe, otherwise 800 att 700 speed in one turn on terrain is inherently a broken concept

4.9/5 -- can prob suspect test this, but its coverage is insane and only checked by shit like bliss and empoleon. Freeze dry + water off blistering speed is nasty, but i can see a suspect (99% ending in ban still)

5/5 -- with a tera blast ban, this mon can become fair and honest in ou. Until then, it is always going to be too cheap due to volc + boltbeam on legs

In conclusion: volc's departure is essentially what caused the metagame to devolve into this multi setup spam bullshit due to walls no longer being sturdy enough for threats. This skewed dynamic in favor of offense is unhealthy for the metagame, and most fat teams are simply hazard based bo with wincons of their own rather than true fat with unawares and other specialized walls. we must free volc and restore the metagame to its diverse self with offense, balance, and fat all coexisting alongside one another (stall was underpowered by now its basically dead)

TLDR: Keep everyone because more bans will skew the meta further. Free Volc and suspect test palafin
Also, this wouldnt have happened if you all listened to the SV herald in the first place and left volc alone

 

[EpicGuy321]

wait survey? I must participate

edit: and ctc’s back, cool