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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [PALAFIN RETEST]

Heatranator said:
Imma just say, when we ban Deoxys Speed, can we also ban Deoxys Defense? It will do similar things, with less speed but more defenses?

Also, when I see a deoxys, I always lead my scarf darkrai and I have got flinches in 50% of my games on that first turn lol.
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Deoxys D wouldn’t even be a top 3 hazard setter or screener in the tier even if we banned Deo S. Its got a niche as a hazard lead, but is it that offensive in that regard with its Mew tier bulk and 90 speed tier? We already have strong HO leads like Sash Glimmora or Hamurott that obtain similar results to a suicide lead Deo D and make more headway. It’s just not that hard to set up hazards compared to 2014. It’s also underwhelming as a bulky hazard setter on balance. Its bad defensive typing holds it back so much. Ting Lu and Gliscor make headway due to their fantastic defensive profiles. Deo D struggles to do that since the tier has more viable dark types then ever and we just don’t have a surplus of good offensive psychic or fighting moves to come in on. It’s hard to come in on strong neutral hits due to its bad HP stat eating into its hazard set up opportunities.
 
Initial thoughts: SD Tera Ground EQ Iron Boulder is such a trooper.
Terapagos is good, maybe too good.
Serperior is kinda awkward to use
Can the Calm Mind Alcremies stop appearing.
Darkrai ain’t that good
 
MX42 said:
Ting Lu and Gliscor make headway due to their fantastic defensive profiles. Deo D struggles to do that since the tier has more viable dark types then ever and we just don’t have a surplus of good offensive psychic or fighting moves to come in on. It’s hard to come in on strong neutral hits due to its bad HP stat eating into its hazard set up opportunities.
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DeoD beats Lu and Gliscor though? And wtf. we have a ton of excellent fighting type attackers, and especially close combats in the tier. But primarily it's a strong lead that beats most other hazard leads. And does so well.
 
cyrtie said:
I think people are being incredibly over the top about everything from what I can tell we have had way more broken stuff in OU this gen let us give it a day or two before we start calling for bans, from what i can tell the most broken thing is deoxys speed but idk about that even
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Agree that people are overhyping how broken things are, but terapagos is definitely broken along with deoxys speed. Stuff like raging bolt could be banworthy, but time will tell.

MX42 said:
Deoxys D wouldn’t even be a top 3 hazard setter or screener in the tier even if we banned Deo S. Its got a niche as a hazard lead, but is it that offensive in that regard with its Mew tier bulk and 90 speed tier? We already have strong HO leads like Sash Glimmora or Hamurott that obtain similar results to a suicide lead Deo D and make more headway. It’s just not that hard to set up hazards compared to 2014. It’s also underwhelming as a bulky hazard setter on balance. Its bad defensive typing holds it back so much. Ting Lu and Gliscor make headway due to their fantastic defensive profiles. Deo D struggles to do that since the tier has more viable dark types then ever and we just don’t have a surplus of good offensive psychic or fighting moves to come in on. It’s hard to come in on strong neutral hits due to its bad HP stat eating into its hazard set up opportunities.
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It won't play exactly like DoS, that's my bad because my wording wasn't the best. I moreso meant that it would get up hazards basically for free. The thing is that DoD can do it across the game, instead of only at the start. Also, the best rapid spinner, Tusk, is threatened by DoD's psycho boost.

0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 372-440 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Great Tusk: 236-278 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Second one is the least damage it will do, which most won't.

0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 372-440 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
This is more realistic, and with some chip from spikes, which Tusk is most likely trying to spin away, it gets chipped. Reminder that only tusk that have boots or have max hp/spD ev's don't get ohko'd. This thing would still be disgusting, it's not going to exactly copy DoS, but it will still be dominant.
 
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I feel most of these Stored Power Terapagos sets are trying to setup way too much. On a mon as bulky as this, you can literally run a mono-attacking calm mind restalk set because that signature move is OP as fuck when Tera'd. 120 BP with no resist is all you need. Rest is mandatory on CM sets, otherwise you get Toxic stalled by Gliscor / Pex, which isn't fun. Sleep talk means the opponent can't setup for free at all unless they want to risk getting KO'd by a sleep talk Tera Starstorm.

I think Specs is another set worth looking into since while the CM set is good, it can struggle into stuff like Haze Pex. Specs just nukes most of these defensive mons with no problem.

This Pokemon is likely broken, but one nice thing is that it fits on all playstyles. If seen all of Stall, Balance, and HO run this Pokemon to decent success as a bulky wincon or utility mon with spin. The Tera-type being locked is a notable weakness as well, though a mon this bulky will have no issue being able to tank Zama-C's CC and the like. However, the fact that it can't flip the type match-up on a dime is a noticable drawback when compared to other banned mons like Bloodmoon and Bax.
 
I'm more worried about Deo-D as a Spikes-setting wall that can keep itself alive thanks to Recover (which Mew lacks), plus it still has access to a myriad of utility options. Knock Off, T-Wave, Taunt, and Counter and Mirror Coat for funny shenanigans (run Chople Berry to murder Kingambit?). Hell, a Stored Power set might be viable. Additionally, Base 90 is a pretty good Speed stat for a wall and lets Deo-D mess with more than you'd think.

Suicide lead Deo-D is overrated and anmoist assuredly outclassed by Deo-S. Utility wall is way more annoying and better suits its strengths.
 
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Man I hate Terapagos, who the hell at GF thought making another fucking Zyg100 was a good idea? Unresisted stab with 120 damage and stored power, just get rid of this, and get rid of Tera while at it.
 
cyrtie said:
I think people are being incredibly over the top about everything from what I can tell we have had way more broken stuff in OU this gen let us give it a day or two before we start calling for bans, from what i can tell the most broken thing is deoxys speed but idk about that even
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Nah Terapagos is absurdly fucking dumb. Only games I lost on ladder so far where either due to hax or my opponent running Terapagos. Let it set up in its base for to take literally any hit, as everything becomes resisted, then Tera once Tera Shell is broken, and sweep almost 100% unopposed. Onlything standing in your way is Blissey, which can scare you with Thunder Wave bullshit hax but otherwise gets demolished by multiple boosts.
And there is no revenge killing this thing without hax or paralysis or both.

Magcargo said:
I feel most of these Stored Power Terapagos sets are trying to setup way too much. On a mon as bulky as this, you can literally run a mono-attacking calm mind restalk set because that signature move is OP as fuck when Tera'd. 120 BP with no resist is all you need. Rest is mandatory on CM sets, otherwise you get Toxic stalled by Gliscor / Pex, which isn't fun. Sleep talk means the opponent can't setup for free at all unless they want to risk getting KO'd by a sleep talk Tera Starstorm.

I think Specs is another set worth looking into since while the CM set is good, it can struggle into stuff like Haze Pex. Specs just nukes most of these defensive mons with no problem.

This Pokemon is likely broken, but one nice thing is that it fits on all playstyles. If seen all of Stall, Balance, and HO run this Pokemon to decent success as a bulky wincon or utility mon with spin. The Tera-type being locked is a notable weakness as well, though a mon this bulky will have no issue being able to tank Zama-C's CC and the like. However, the fact that it can't flip the type match-up on a dime is a noticable drawback when compared to other banned mons like Bloodmoon and Bax.
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I actually run Double Dance with Rest+Chesto and it works amazingly well. You hit Pokemon that may Haze you really hard while also being so bulky you need little investment to survive multiple strong hits. You literally don't need coverage because you OHKO almost the entire meta outside of Blissey or fully health Pex that can somewhat PP stall you., though +1 Tera Starstorm does 75% at minimum to regular Pex, making it an easy KO.
+1 252+ SpA Terapagos-Stellar Tera Starstorm vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 228-268 (75 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you have hazards or chips Toxapex before, you don't even have to worry about Haze.
 
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cyrtie said:
I think people are being incredibly over the top about everything from what I can tell we have had way more broken stuff in OU this gen let us give it a day or two before we start calling for bans, from what i can tell the most broken thing is deoxys speed but idk about that even
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People are under no obligation to wait to ask for bans. And in its short stint, deo s has shown that it hasn't really changed much. Precedent has already been set for it being meta warping and it has been banned before. Just because you're not sure about how you feel in regards to it, others aren't wrong for wanting it dealt with asap.
 
Magcargo said:
"The Tera-type being locked is a notable weakness as well...."
"However, the fact that it can't flip the type match-up on a dime is a noticable drawback when compared to other banned mons like Bloodmoon and Bax."
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Those two sentences bothered me a lot, Terapagos don't really care about different Teras because it's entirely toolkit is designed to set up on Terastal form and go Ham on stellar because you have a 120 move with no resists and let me tell ya, when you using pokemons like Zama, Tusk and others top meta as set up bait, something is really bloody wrong.

Anyway, gonna talk about other mons. Darkrai is really underwhelming after all the hype, don't take me wrong it's a good mon like A rank material but it has a big 4MSS, it wants to set up and use all it's coverage but ever good team will have a natural countermeasure to it since we have been forced to learn how to deal with strong fast special attackers, also people stop using hypnosis sets those things are ass and Garga bait.

Boulder is great, Booster are top sweepers and Band is nasty if you don't have a Tusk in your team.

Hydrapple is dragon Tangrowth, man a AVest set hit so much special hits, I literally survived some ridiculous stuff, try it its great.

Deoxys-S should get the boot, if your team doesn't have a grimsnarl that thing's gonna guarantee at least one kind of hazard and I'm even seeing screens team at well, it's too much of a good support mon. Deo-D is ass, rather use a gliscor or ting.

Crown is annoying, screens/veil teams and Tera make it so it can pull some nasty SP sets, outside screens it's Mid.

G.Fire is strong, I'm rather use HDB on it though, too many hazards, but on sun teams it's taking names.

Raging is Mid, maybe it's because there are too many good ground types, but very rarely I see it pull some good work.

The other stuff than got Unbanned, Moon is okay... I didn't felt it was broke, then again Terapagos is taking the heat, we see after it or Tera leaves. Volca is fine, Gliscor is kinda ass, it doesn't have a good match up against most of the new stuff, even Boulder can take it since it ignores protect. Anyway, those are my thoughts for now, so I say ban Tera so we can keep Terapagos and a healthier meta.
 
Komodo_Drogo said:
People are under no obligation to wait to ask for bans. And in its short stint, deo s has shown that it hasn't really changed much. Precedent has already been set for it being meta warping and it has been banned before. Just because you're not sure about how you feel in regards to it, others aren't wrong for wanting it dealt with asap.
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Doe-S needs some more time too cook. Terapagos or Terapagos-Stellar absolutely cooked way too much. It's turtle soup and definitely has highest priority for banning now.
 
I'm putting all my stocks in Iron Boulder being a tier staple. One booster energy and you can outspeed Quark Drive Valiant, and a pretty good movepool complete with a, gasp, 100% ACCURATE PHYSICAL ROCK MOVE BABY! And yeah I know its typing is horrible, but this is gen 9, you just click tera fairy or something and that fixes all your problems. So in conclusion, OU's newest star will be the love child of Iron Valiant and Solrock.
 
Cuddly said:
Doe-S needs some more time too cook. Terapagos or Terapagos-Stellar absolutely cooked way too much. It's turtle soup and definitely has highest priority for banning now.
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DoS is one hundred percent broken. Like, it can set the tempo of the match perfectly and can only be outsped by scarfers and booster energy mons which are naturally fast. Only valiant can guarentee hazards don't go up, but not only does Dos threaten it with psycho boost, but it also can switch out to a counter easily, and then valiant can't outspeed next time it gets in. It is broken, no questions asked.
 
1234hjkl said:
Man I hate Terapagos, who the hell at GF thought making another fucking Zyg100 was a good idea? Unresisted stab with 120 damage and stored power, just get rid of this, and get rid of Tera while at it.
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I am more bothered by the fact that its worse than I thought. I thought it would be an uber pokemon and not one that could be even considered to be OU i was expecting it's mid form to be like 670 or something and the ultimate one to be like 720. This means that after this gen it will likely be an OU pokemon since tera wont be a thing which is weird considering how hyped up it was in game. It is not like Kyurem Black who still has the BST that they intend for strong pokemon, terapagos is just an odd pokemon but I hope they figure out a way to make it's stellar form stay in future gens since unlike necrozma it doesnt have really strong base forms
 
I don't know if this is an hot take, but I'll never understand people that find absolute dumpster fire metagames "fun". I enjoy quite a lot the process of teambuilding, and coming up with an original and functional strategy, or simply with a well-crafted team, is pretty rewarding. I know that this is the natural progress of an early metagame, but there's no comparison with this kinda meta and actually cooking or watching my friends cook some fire ass teams. Right now all I'm seeing is DeoS, Deos, Deos, Veil, Sun, Deos, Sun, Sun, Deos, Web, Sun, Deos.
 
Heatranator said:
DoS is one hundred percent broken. Like, it can set the tempo of the match perfectly and can only be outsped by scarfers and booster energy mons which are naturally fast. Only valiant can guarentee hazards don't go up, but not only does Dos threaten it with psycho boost, but it also can switch out to a counter easily, and then valiant can't outspeed next time it gets in. It is broken, no questions asked.
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I’m not saying it’s not potentially broken, just that Terapagos needs to go first and Deo-S might cool off after a few days. Some staple mons like Iron Valiant and Hamurott work well at beating it. Hatterene which got buffed can be pretty good against it. We’ll have to see but I don’t see it lasting long.
 
Alright caught up to the thread.

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Okay so I've collected my thoughts after about 30 games and theorycrafting since the DLC2 metagame dropped, so here they are.

:wartortle: Pretend this is terapagos. Bullshit mon, needs to leave as soon as possible. If tera, which at the very least is a contreversial mechanic, is a no factor as this will always be using tera, that shows something is wrong with this mon. 700 base stats is insane, but unlike other mons with high base stats, it has almost perfect distribution of said stats. It does have rapid spin, so there will be something to lose from it leaving.

:Deoxys-Speed: Bullshit mon 2: electric boogaloo. The ease to which it can set hazards is insane. This should most likely never have been allowed in the tier, it will always be insane with that speed stat. Heck, it even got nasty plot which would make it insane. Something that fast being able to throw off insane attacks is not the meta set shows how amazing it is at its other role.

:Deoxys-Defense: This one is weird. On the one hand, it is bad, most likely due to DoS's dominance. On the other, once DoS gets banned this could be broken. It can live hits so amazingly, and it threatens the no.1 spinner, great tusk. This should be watched with a careful eye though, just in case.

:Raikou: Ah, Raging bolt. Another one for the chopping block. This is basically a repeat of Gambit, great overall, but a priority move pushes it over the edge. It has insane bulk, insane spA and can outspeed mons as well? Yeah, this will be gone soon I hope.

:Entei: Gouging Fire is both amazing and bad. It can absolutely destroy some mons, but can be stopped by others. If you set it up right, it can be the most disgusting thing ever. But it can also fall flat quite fast. Keep an eye on, it could be cracked if someone makes the right set.

:Darkrai: Honestly, kinda underwhelming right now. This obviously is due to the other broken stuff, but it can be a bit difficult to use. This will increase in power once other things get banned, but it could be good for the tier. Just watch out, this things could lurk in the shadows for a while to then overtake the metagame.

:Duraludon:/:Dipplin: Both Archaludon and Hydrapple have been decent. Archaludon is an amazing physcial wall that destroys gambit easily, but crumples to tusk and special attacks. Meanwhile, Hydrapple can tank hits and dish them back quite well, but does struggle against some things that can hit it super effectively. Both great mons for the tier and are the highlight of this update.

Anything not mentioned is either underwhelming or not really standout for me to write about, these are just standouts to me. E.g. Iron boulder is a good mon, but not spectacular. Outspeeds a lot, but can be underwhelming in power department.
 
Heatranator said:
:Duraludon:/:Dipplin: Both Archaludon and Hydrapple have been decent. Archaludon is an amazing physcial wall that destroys gambit easily, but crumples to tusk and special attacks. Meanwhile, Hydrapple can tank hits and dish them back quite well, but does struggle against some things that can hit it super effectively. Both great mons for the tier and are the highlight of this update.
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My Hydrapple experience is basically a constant game of DOES IT HAVE ICE BEAM?????
Where if the answer is yes your hydrapple dies.

Other that, can attest to it, incredibly reliable mon.

My current set is this, though its probably not optimal:

Hydrapple @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain
- Yawn
- Earth Power

Earth Power is pretty much mandatory to threaten steel types unfortunately, so the last move slot has tight competition. Most people would run Nasty plot to setup sweep, but I've found yawn is incredibly good at forcing out mons Hydrapplin doesn't want to face head on, giving it opportunities to fish for fickle procs.

Regenerator is a huge boon that really sets hydrapplin apart from its applin predecessors, easily offsetting life orb recoil.

I think the best way I could describe this mon as a combo of Slowking-G and Slowbro-G, but with a worse typing. It can come in repeatedly throughout the game, and has a sizable chance of just destroying counterplay in a pinch.

Ultimately, even if it doesn't end up OU, I'm really happy with Hydrapple turned out, and that my favorite complete evolution set finally has found viability in OU
 
ausma said:
:wartortle: When making an argument to try it out in the council chat, I hadn't had a clue that Tera Starstorm and Terapagos's blatant ignoration of the one-time Stellar STAB boost would be factors. The latter is seldom a factor ever though because Tera Starstorm in its Stellar form has quite literally absolutely no counterplay. Calm Mind + Rock Polish/Spin + Starstorm and then your choice of Rest, coverage, or utility blatantly runs the tier, especially when before it Terastallizes it has the ability to use Tera Shell as a tool to boost up more consistently. The base form is otherwise an interesting and far from broken addition to the tier so I personally am a bit bummed out about this one.
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Can we please get some kind of policy review discussion about specifically banning Terapagos-Stellar? It would be pretty comparable to the Ubers Mega Rayquaza ban, and while I know that Ubers and OU have different policies for banning things, the precedent does exist in some form. Terapagos-Stellar isn’t just Terapagos that gets to Tera, it literally gains 100 BST and its signature move literally changes type to become true neutral to everything; it’s an entirely different Pokémon. I don’t think Embody Aspect Ogerpon-Hearthflame is comparable, and even if it was, it was mainly Mold Breaker that broke it instead of Embody Aspect. Just banning a form doesn’t really feel like a complex ban to me, nor does it feel dramatically different from, say, “Zygarde 10% can’t run Power Construct”, where we banned literally the signature ability of one Pokémon, something we normally avoid doing, because it transformed it into another 700 BST Uber. I’m just kind of rambling at this point, but I just wanted to make a case in favor of a Stellar ban because I really want to keep base Terapagos, and I don’t think it makes sense to ban the whole Pokémon for the sins of one form.
 
I tried out the ol' DPP noobtrap of Electivire + Gyra

It... does something. Got me to 1350 which is... something, I suppose. Scarfed Electivire outspeeds quite a lot of mons whilst having acceptable uninvested bulk, Gyra after a single DD also has enough power and speed to do work whilst retaining alright bulk, especially when you opt for intimidate instead of moxie

I tried out Cinccino too and I gotta say it's honestly a worse Moushold. Too frail and doesn't hit hard enough. Maybe she needs more time to cook though

Terapagos is probably the best mon right now. Stellar Terapagos reminds me quite a bit of 100% Zygarde. Wouldn't call for any bans yet, I would give it atleast a couple days to a wekk
 
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