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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

A lot of people that seem to talk about altering species clause in it's current form are misguided in my opinion, because ultimately I think any Tiering Policy change on this level should have pro's that heavily outweigh the cons, with a focus on OverUsed, similarly to how the Sleep Clause was handled.

A change to the current clause has to be objective and clearly understandable, Alternator is the only one that has proposed a concrete implementable adjustment to the current clause, which doesn't absolutely decimate lower tiers by allowing multiple of Silvally, Pikachu or Oricorios.

I don't think allowing regional forms on the same team as their regular counterparts is worth the headache of going through every single instance of multiple forms.

If a concrete situation is proposed, it would have to differentiate between the following list of duplicate forms btw:
For the purposes of this list, any Pokemon that is listed as a seperate physical Pokemon (typically with a different sprite), but share a Dex Number, this also uniquely focuses on gen 9 OU available Pokemon, ignoring old gens and Ubers, as well as mid-battle forms for the context of BH (which already has rules in place for this).
These are only for Pokemon with Concrete differences in Typing, Abilities, Stats or Movepool, these are the main objective criteria to go off, without including things like Pikachu Caps, Zarude forms, Gastrodon or others as well as even Gender Sprite Differences.


NON-REGIONAL

Tauros:

- Tauros-Paldea
- Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
- Tauros-Paldea-Blaze

Deoxys:

- Deoxys-Speed
- Deoxys-Defense

Rotom:
- Rotom
- Rotom-Heat
- Rotom-Wash
- Rotom-Frost
- Rotom-Fan
- Rotom-Mow

Arceus:
- All of them

Basculin:
- Basculin
- Basculin-Blue-Striped
- Basculin-White-Striped

Basculegion:
- Basculegion
- Basculegion-Female

Tornadus:
- Tornadus
- Tornadus-Therian

Thundurus:
- Thundurus
- Thundurus-Therian

Enamorus:
- Enamorus
- Enamorus-Therian

Keldeo:
- Keldeo
- Keldeo-Resolute

Vivillon:
- Vivillon
- Vivillon-Fancy
- Vivillon-Pokeball

Meowstic:
- Meowstic
- Meowstic-Female

Hoopa:
- Hoopa
- Hoopa-Unbound

Oricorio:
- Oricorio
- Oricorio-Pom-Pom
- Oricorio-Pa'u
- Oricorio-Sensu

Lycanroc:
- Lycanroc
- Lycanroc-Midnight
- Lycanroc-Dusk

Silvally:
- All of them

Toxtricity:
- Toxtricity
- Toxtricity-Low-Key

Indeedee:
- Indeedee
- Indeedee-Female

Oinkologne:
- Oinkologne
- Oinkologne-Female

Squawkabilly:
- Green and Blue
- Yellow and White

Ogerpon:
- Ogerpon
- Ogerpon-Wellspring
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame
- Ogerpon-Cornerstone

REGIONAL:

- Diglett
- Dugtrio
- Exeggutor
- Geodude
- Graveler
- Golem
- Grimer
- Muk
- Meowth-Alola
- Persian
- Raichu
- Sandshrew
- Sandslash
- Vulpix
- Ninetales

- Meowth-Galar
- Slowpoke
- Slowbro
- Slowking
- Weezing
- Articuno
- Zapdos
- Moltres

- Growlithe
- Arcanine
- Avalugg
- Braviary
- Decidueye
- Voltorb
- Electrode
- Sliggoo
- Goodra
- Lilligant
- Qwilfish
- Samurott
- Typhlosion
- Zorua
- Zoruark

- Wooper
- Tauros

For what it's worth, following Alternator's suggestion would allow for the following forms to be run together in OU:

- Tauros, Tauros-Paldea, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze, Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
- Rotom, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Frost, Rotom-Fan, Rotom-Mow
- Basculin or Basculin-Blue-Stripe, Basculin-White-Stripe
- Tornadus, Tornadus-Therian
- Thundurus, Thundurus-Therian
- Enamorus, Enamorus-Therian
- Hoopa, Hoopa-Unbound
- Lycanroc, Lycanroc-Midnight, Lycanroc-Dusk
- Ogerpon, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Ogerpon-Cornerstone
- Diglett, Diglett-Alola
- Dugtrio, Dugtrio-Alola
- Exeggutor, Exeggutor-Alola
- Geodude, Geodude-Alola
- Graveler, Graveler-Alola
- Golem, Golem-Alola
- Grimer, Grimer-Alola
- Muk, Muk-Alola
- Meowth, Meowth-Alola, Meowth-Galar
- Persian, Persian-Alola
- Raichu, Raichu-Alola
- Sandshrew, Sandshrew-Alola
- Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola
- Vuplix, Vulpix-Alola
- Ninetales, Ninetales-Alola
- Slowpoke, Slowpoke-Galar
- Slowbro, Slowbro-Galar
- Slowking, Slowking-Galar
- Weezing, Weezing-Galar
- Articuno, Articuno-Galar
- Zapdos, Zapdos-Galar
- Moltres, Moltres-Galar
- Growlithe, Growlithe-Hisui
- Arcanine, Arcanine-Hisui
- Avalugg, Avalugg-Hisui
- Braviary, Braviary-Hisui
- Decidueye, Decidueye-Hisui
- Voltorb, Voltorb-Hisui
- Electrode, Electrode-Hisui
- Sliggoo, Sliggoo-Hisui
- Goodra, Goodra-Hisui
- Lilligant, Lilligant-Hisui
- Qwilfish, Qwilfish-Hisui
- Samurott, Samurott-Hisui
- Typhlosion, Typhlosion-Hisui
- Zorua, Zorua-Hisui
- Zoroark, Zoroark-Hisui
- Wooper, Wooper-Hisui

I honestly think this is the implementation method with the least negative repercutions from any solution proposed as it comes to combinations, but ultimately, what would we even gain from this?
The only OU Cores that would ever see any level of viability would be Zapdos+Zapdos-G, Moltres+Moltres-G, Ogerpon+Ogerpon-Cornerstone+Ogerpon-Wellspring. All the others would be incredibly gimmicky or straight up unviable in the current OU landscape.

Having more freedom is cool and all, but it becomes very complicated to the newer player as well to understand which forms they're allowed together, and which forms they're not.
 
Last edited:
Ehmcee said:
I honestly think this is the implementation method with the least negative repercutions from any solution proposed as it comes to combinations, but ultimately, what would we even gain from this?
The only OU Cores that would ever see any level of viability would be Zapdos+Zapdos-G, Moltres+Moltres-G, Ogerpon+Ogerpon-Cornerstone+Ogerpon-Wellspring. All the others would be incredibly gimmicky or straight up unviable in the current OU landscape.

Having more freedom is cool and all, but it becomes very complicated to the newer player as well to understand which forms they're allowed together, and which forms they're not.
Click to expand...
I pretty much agree with what you've stated here, I just wanted to make mention of this. I've always found this mindset as somewhat limiting. I understood tier action more as a "stop the cancerous elements from fucking us over" as opposed to "it is an asset to the tier". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole

"we don't make tiering decisions based on whether or not things get worse. If we ban something and another threat rises, we ban that, if need be (paraphrased)"

an indication that we don't always worry about what something brings to the tier, more that it doesn't bring instability? Who knows? Maybe we find some funky stuff besides a double dose of Zapdos if we let the creative juices flowing and follow that particular hypothetical suggestion.
 
Ehmcee said:
The only OU Cores that would ever see any level of viability would be Zapdos+Zapdos-G, Moltres+Moltres-G, Ogerpon+Ogerpon-Cornerstone+Ogerpon-Wellspring. All the others would be incredibly gimmicky or straight up unviable in the current OU landscape.
Click to expand...
and even those are probably not great to run. the zapdos/gapdos core relies on two mons that aren't particularly fantastic in the current climate, the moltres/goltres core relies on two incredibly knock-vulnerable boots users, the triplepon core means half your team shares a u-turn weakness, and weakness-stacking in general is kind of iffy if the mons aren't all incredibly good both individually and as a group. i'd like to take a moment to mention the double slowking core that you didn't bring up, because it would definitely see usage—glowking is top 5 in this meta right now (i've seen people make compelling arguments for top 1 even) and regen pivots synergize well with each other by definition—but stacking two dark- and ghost-weak mons in this meta? that'll never fly. so yeah, not only would we be spending a massive amount of time and resources on discussion and implementation of the change instead of productive things, defying the will of both the people and the folks in charge, making a ridiculous and arbitrary decision for the sake of "the funsies", and mucking around with an official rule that works fine, but we wouldn't even actually gain anything from it

and sims, put that laugh react back where it came from before i stop being civil
 
Last edited:
Morkal said:
I don't know how I missed that; thanks for pointing it out! I added it in as a slash-in. Alluring Voice can be quite useful for this setup sweeper-heavy meta.
Click to expand...
Jolt may be too fast to take advantage of the secondary effect but it's still the same base power as Tera and hits past subs.

DaddyBuzzwole said:
and even those are probably not great to run. the zapdos/gapdos core relies on two mons that aren't particularly fantastic in the current climate, the moltres/goltres core relies on two incredibly knock-vulnerable boots users, the triplepon core means half your team shares a u-turn weakness, and weakness-stacking in general is kind of iffy if the mons aren't all incredibly good both individually and as a group. i'd like to take a moment to mention the double slowking core that you didn't bring up, because it would definitely see usage—glowking is top 5 in this meta right now (i've seen people make compelling arguments for top 1 even) and regen pivots synergize well with each other by definition—but stacking two dark- and ghost-weak mons in this meta? that'll never fly. so yeah, not only would we be spending a massive amount of time and resources on discussion and implementation of the change instead of productive things, defying the will of both the people and the folks in charge, making a ridiculous and arbitrary decision for the sake of "the funsies", and mucking around with an official rule that works fine, but we wouldn't even actually gain anything from it

and sims, put that laugh react back where it came from before i stop being civil
Click to expand...

...

This seems to be a very sensitive subject for you. These are quite strong reactions to a topic that will, at the end of the day, see no real implications but bringing up discussions. I mean, is anything even going on right now? Any suspects? Feel free to bring up.a better one if you want. Jolteon is fun. Imagine if they had a regional Jolteon form. Then we could use TWO Jolteon in one team!

Feel free to uh, not be civil if you need too, I guess.
 
Last edited:
Morkal said:
Disclaimer: Jolteon is specifically meant for offensive teams in need of its specific talents; it does not fit well on more defensive builds, as the item choice it requires on those teams limits its power to levels that limit its usefulness. I very highly recommend checking out the wonderful SV OU Speed Tiers thread that Mada posted along with specific movesets for Jolteon's meta matchups. Also, this analysis will be smaller than my usual posts due to my slammed schedule + Jolteon's more narrow focus. So aspects such as defensive utility and teammates will be a brief overview.
View attachment 648082
Jolteon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast/Alluring Voice (Thanks to Bog Monster for reminding me that Alluring Voice is a great move that exists that I blank-brained on for some reason, it's worth a slash-in here)​
Click to expand...

First of all, thank you. I love Jolteon. I ran into a few on an unregistered alt testing a team that was unfortunately fairly Electric weak. It's great to see it actually get some sort of OU niche. It's also great that it finally gets a useful coverage move in Alluring Voice. It feels like it has been ages with GF taking away so many of its moves over the last several gens.

The only thing I would add is I really don't love non-STAB Shadow Ball on a mon that is, at least by gen 9 standards, as weak hitting as Jolteon. It doesn't really do enough for me in most cases.

I feel like Weather Ball and something like a Glowking on the team could be pretty decent. You slow pivot into Jolteon and get free Bolt/Beam coverage without needing to Tera Ice. You could probably hit a lot more of the tier that way. You'd just need to add some ground immunities or whatever.
 
Bold School said:
I feel like Weather Ball and something like a Glowking on the team could be pretty decent. You slow pivot into Jolteon and get free Bolt/Beam coverage without needing to Tera Ice. You could probably hit a lot more of the tier that way. You'd just need to add some ground immunities or whatever.
Click to expand...
ooh, i like that. i like that a lot. especially with the potential for future sight pressure from glowking—that combined with fairy/electric/ice coverage and fast-pivoting capability seems like it could potentially be devastating with the proper support (ground immunities and hazard control are a must-have. maybe corv? cryogonal for additional hail snow abuse, even? or are we cooking too much now)
 
Bold School said:
I feel like Weather Ball and something like a Glowking on the team could be pretty decent. You slow pivot into Jolteon and get free Bolt/Beam coverage without needing to Tera Ice. You could probably hit a lot more of the tier that way. You'd just need to add some ground immunities or whatever.
Click to expand...
Well, I did use jolteon on a rain team about a month ago, and yeah, it hits the tier for a lot of damage. I actually came around to the some of the same conclusions Morkal did, except I used a calm mind set with focus sahs (and thunder of course) in order to deal maximum damage.
I cannot tell you the amount of times people switched in their ground types only to get obliterated by weather ball, it was always funny.
 
Morkal said:
Jolteon
View attachment 648078

"Jolteon creates electricity using an organ in its lungs, which causes crackling noises as it exhales. It can also generate low-level electricity in its cells, which is amplified by the negative ions it gathers and generates in its fur, allowing it to discharge 10,000-volt lightning bolts." - Bulbapedia

"Hi everyone, sorry for the long absence. I can't be on as much as I used to be, but I figure that a new long-form analysis is quite overdue even if it's not as long as usual." - Morkal​

BASE STATSBST: 525
HP:
65
240 - 334​
Attack:
65
121 - 251​
Defense:
60
112 - 240​
Sp. Atk:
110
202 - 350​
Sp. Def:
95
175 - 317​
Speed:
130
238 - 394​

:jolteon:
Introduction​

Jolteon is... well he's Jolteon, he's part of that select group of Generation One Pokemon that even people who haven't touched a Pokemon game since 1995 know about even to this day. While Jolteon is beloved in the public eye, his performance in competitive singles took a nosedive starting with XY's OU metagame and things have not looked particularly good for him otherwise. However, Jolteon has been woefully underlooked in this generation despite having gained some incredible new traits along with deceptively favorable metagame conditions. Jolteon is an incredible choice for offensive teams in need of its particular talents.

:jolteon:
Jolteon Summarization
This section contains a "TLDR" of Jolteon's key advantages in the SV DLC2 OU metagame for those who don't want to read through the long-form essay analysis.​
  • Jolteon is one of the few Pokemon that (when terastallized) can completely wall Raging Bolt thanks to dual-STAB immunity from Tera Fairy and its ability Volt Absorb.
  • Jolteon's incredible base 130 speed outpaces every single OU Pokemon except for Deoxys-Speed, Dragapult, and Zamazenta. This is critical as it's one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed blazing-fast Pokemon such as Darkrai and Weavile and threaten them.
  • Jolteon's offensive role compression thanks to its speed, coverage, and solid base 110 Special Attack stat is incredible - allowing it to threaten key metagame threats such as Alomomola, Corviknight, Dondozo, Enamorus, Samurott-Hisui, and Skarmory.
  • Jolteon's newfound access to Tera Fairy allows it to stay in on and threaten or outright KO multiple problematic threats such as Darkrai, Dragapult, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and Kyurem.
  • Jolteon can fit on a variety of offensive teams thanks to having STAB Volt Switch to be a fast pivot, and it pairs quite well with metagame staples such as Swords Dance Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, Great Tusk, and Zamazenta.
  • Jolteon's flexibility with Tera adds some newfound unpredictability to its game, as it can use Tera Ice to take on threats like Gliscor while it can use Tera Fighting to take on Kingambit and other specific threats.
Disclaimer: Jolteon is specifically meant for offensive teams in need of its specific talents; it does not fit well on more defensive builds, as the item choice it requires on those teams limits its power to levels that limit its usefulness. I very highly recommend checking out the wonderful SV OU Speed Tiers thread that Mada posted along with specific movesets for Jolteon's meta matchups. Also, this analysis will be smaller than my usual posts due to my slammed schedule + Jolteon's more narrow focus. So aspects such as defensive utility and teammates will be a brief overview.
View attachment 648082
Jolteon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt/Thunder (For Rain Teams)
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball/Weather Ball (For Rain Teams)
- Tera Blast/Alluring Voice (Thanks to Bog Monster for reminding me that Alluring Voice is a great move that exists that I blank-brained on for some reason, it's worth a slash-in here)

Set Breakdown
View attachment 648091
​
This analysis will be comparatively shorter when compared to my other long-form analysis posts as this set is pretty straightforward. 232-speed EVs with a Timid nature puts Jolteon at 389, allowing it to outspeed neutral 252 EV +1 Dragonite, Hoopa-U, Mamoswine, and Blaziken who are locked at 388; this also keeps its speed advantage over threats like neutral 252 EV Dragapult and Timid/Jolly 252 EV Darkrai/Weavile. Special Attack requires the full 252 EV investment along with Expert Belt to hit specific damage benchmarks, while the extra EVs are put into Jolteon's workable base 95 Special Defense and can allow it to avoid the OHKO and 2HKO on some pretty gnarly moves in a pinch.

So what can Jolteon take on? Let's take a look at some of Jolteon's damage benchmarks with its two STAB moves - Thunderbolt and Tera Blast Fairy/Alluring Voice along with its coverage move Shadow Ball (we'll exclusively be focusing on Expert Belt-boosted attacks here).

Damage Thresholds
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - OHKO/OHKO chances
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 583-686 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 360-425 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 305-360 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 446-526 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dragapult: 396-468 (124.9 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 355-420 (111.9 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 377-446 (130.4 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 389-461 (110.5 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 463-547 (106.6 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 425-499 (146.5 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 283-334 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kommo-o: 533-634 (183.1 - 217.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 374-442 (127.6 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 362-427 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 552-653 (157.2 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 446-526 (138.9 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 396-468 (123.3 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 425-499 (127.2 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 326-389 (97.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 326-389 (95.3 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 319-377 (113.5 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - 2HKO/2HKO chances
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 140-166 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
(If Dragonite is chipped, it's gone. 252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 281-331 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 324-382 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 202-238 (64.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 204-240 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 182-216 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 175-206 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 305-360 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Primarina: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 182-218 (56.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 310-367 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 247-295 (63.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - 3HKOs
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 118-139 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 175-209 (34 - 40.6%) -- 39.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Additional Information + Conclusion
View attachment 648130
​
Jolteon has a phenomenal offensive presence on its team as you can see from the thresholds and unique threat combinations that it hits super effectively. Jolteon's minor Special Defense EVs allow it to perform feats such as avoiding an OHKO from Earth Power Kyurem pre-Tera and avoiding the 2HKO from Earth Power Kyurem post-tera. Jolteon partners exceptionally well with Zamazenta and the duo creates a phenomenal speed core along with covering each other's biggest issues. Dragapult, Great Tusk, and Kyurem also make incredible partners for Jolteon to help make up for some of its negative traits such as its quite poor physical bulk.

Jolteon has some unpredictability with Tera as well, as you can run Tera Ice to stuff Gliscor or Tera Fighting to whomp Kingambit. Jolteon is a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche toolkit and wonderful overall stats that have been made much better in the advent of SV's Terastallized metagame. Additionally, Jolteon can use Weather Ball, allowing it to decimate key threats on weather teams; rain teams in particular appreciate Jolteon's talents and they also allow Jolteon to run Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, significantly buffing its damage output along with potentially crippling any non-immune switch-ins.

(I'm sorry the analysis is shorter than usual. I wanted to get this post about Jolteon up within my limited free time and I felt that with a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche like this, it would be informative enough as is!)
Click to expand...
This looks very interesting and promising! Do you perhaps have some replay with this set in action?
 
Morkal said:
Jolteon
View attachment 648078

"Jolteon creates electricity using an organ in its lungs, which causes crackling noises as it exhales. It can also generate low-level electricity in its cells, which is amplified by the negative ions it gathers and generates in its fur, allowing it to discharge 10,000-volt lightning bolts." - Bulbapedia

"Hi everyone, sorry for the long absence. I can't be on as much as I used to be, but I figure that a new long-form analysis is quite overdue even if it's not as long as usual." - Morkal​

BASE STATSBST: 525
HP:
65
240 - 334​
Attack:
65
121 - 251​
Defense:
60
112 - 240​
Sp. Atk:
110
202 - 350​
Sp. Def:
95
175 - 317​
Speed:
130
238 - 394​

:jolteon:
Introduction​

Jolteon is... well he's Jolteon, he's part of that select group of Generation One Pokemon that even people who haven't touched a Pokemon game since 1995 know about even to this day. While Jolteon is beloved in the public eye, his performance in competitive singles took a nosedive starting with XY's OU metagame and things have not looked particularly good for him otherwise. However, Jolteon has been woefully underlooked in this generation despite having gained some incredible new traits along with deceptively favorable metagame conditions. Jolteon is an incredible choice for offensive teams in need of its particular talents.

:jolteon:
Jolteon Summarization
This section contains a "TLDR" of Jolteon's key advantages in the SV DLC2 OU metagame for those who don't want to read through the long-form essay analysis.​
  • Jolteon is one of the few Pokemon that (when terastallized) can completely wall Raging Bolt thanks to dual-STAB immunity from Tera Fairy and its ability Volt Absorb.
  • Jolteon's incredible base 130 speed outpaces every single OU Pokemon except for Deoxys-Speed, Dragapult, and Zamazenta. This is critical as it's one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed blazing-fast Pokemon such as Darkrai and Weavile and threaten them.
  • Jolteon's offensive role compression thanks to its speed, coverage, and solid base 110 Special Attack stat is incredible - allowing it to threaten key metagame threats such as Alomomola, Corviknight, Dondozo, Enamorus, Samurott-Hisui, and Skarmory.
  • Jolteon's newfound access to Tera Fairy allows it to stay in on and threaten or outright KO multiple problematic threats such as Darkrai, Dragapult, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and Kyurem.
  • Jolteon can fit on a variety of offensive teams thanks to having STAB Volt Switch to be a fast pivot, and it pairs quite well with metagame staples such as Swords Dance Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, Great Tusk, and Zamazenta.
  • Jolteon's flexibility with Tera adds some newfound unpredictability to its game, as it can use Tera Ice to take on threats like Gliscor while it can use Tera Fighting to take on Kingambit and other specific threats.
Disclaimer: Jolteon is specifically meant for offensive teams in need of its specific talents; it does not fit well on more defensive builds, as the item choice it requires on those teams limits its power to levels that limit its usefulness. I very highly recommend checking out the wonderful SV OU Speed Tiers thread that Mada posted along with specific movesets for Jolteon's meta matchups. Also, this analysis will be smaller than my usual posts due to my slammed schedule + Jolteon's more narrow focus. So aspects such as defensive utility and teammates will be a brief overview.
View attachment 648082
Jolteon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt/Thunder (For Rain Teams)
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball/Weather Ball (For Rain Teams)
- Tera Blast/Alluring Voice (Thanks to Bog Monster for reminding me that Alluring Voice is a great move that exists that I blank-brained on for some reason, it's worth a slash-in here)

Set Breakdown
View attachment 648091
​
This analysis will be comparatively shorter when compared to my other long-form analysis posts as this set is pretty straightforward. 232-speed EVs with a Timid nature puts Jolteon at 389, allowing it to outspeed neutral 252 EV +1 Dragonite, Hoopa-U, Mamoswine, and Blaziken who are locked at 388; this also keeps its speed advantage over threats like neutral 252 EV Dragapult and Timid/Jolly 252 EV Darkrai/Weavile. Special Attack requires the full 252 EV investment along with Expert Belt to hit specific damage benchmarks, while the extra EVs are put into Jolteon's workable base 95 Special Defense and can allow it to avoid the OHKO and 2HKO on some pretty gnarly moves in a pinch.

So what can Jolteon take on? Let's take a look at some of Jolteon's damage benchmarks with its two STAB moves - Thunderbolt and Tera Blast Fairy/Alluring Voice along with its coverage move Shadow Ball (we'll exclusively be focusing on Expert Belt-boosted attacks here).

Damage Thresholds
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - OHKO/OHKO chances
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 583-686 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 360-425 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 305-360 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 446-526 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dragapult: 396-468 (124.9 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 355-420 (111.9 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 377-446 (130.4 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 389-461 (110.5 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 463-547 (106.6 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 425-499 (146.5 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 283-334 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kommo-o: 533-634 (183.1 - 217.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 374-442 (127.6 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 362-427 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 552-653 (157.2 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 446-526 (138.9 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 396-468 (123.3 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 425-499 (127.2 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 326-389 (97.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 326-389 (95.3 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 319-377 (113.5 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - 2HKO/2HKO chances
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 140-166 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
(If Dragonite is chipped, it's gone. 252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 281-331 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 324-382 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 202-238 (64.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 204-240 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 182-216 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 175-206 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 305-360 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Primarina: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 182-218 (56.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 310-367 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 247-295 (63.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - 3HKOs
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 118-139 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 175-209 (34 - 40.6%) -- 39.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Additional Information + Conclusion
View attachment 648130
​
Jolteon has a phenomenal offensive presence on its team as you can see from the thresholds and unique threat combinations that it hits super effectively. Jolteon's minor Special Defense EVs allow it to perform feats such as avoiding an OHKO from Earth Power Kyurem pre-Tera and avoiding the 2HKO from Earth Power Kyurem post-tera. Jolteon partners exceptionally well with Zamazenta and the duo creates a phenomenal speed core along with covering each other's biggest issues. Dragapult, Great Tusk, and Kyurem also make incredible partners for Jolteon to help make up for some of its negative traits such as its quite poor physical bulk.

Jolteon has some unpredictability with Tera as well, as you can run Tera Ice to stuff Gliscor or Tera Fighting to whomp Kingambit. Jolteon is a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche toolkit and wonderful overall stats that have been made much better in the advent of SV's Terastallized metagame. Additionally, Jolteon can use Weather Ball, allowing it to decimate key threats on weather teams; rain teams in particular appreciate Jolteon's talents and they also allow Jolteon to run Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, significantly buffing its damage output along with potentially crippling any non-immune switch-ins.

(I'm sorry the analysis is shorter than usual. I wanted to get this post about Jolteon up within my limited free time and I felt that with a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche like this, it would be informative enough as is!)
Click to expand...

Just updated the Jolteon analysis with some cleaner formatting, and additional slash-ins of Alluring Voice for a Tera Blast Fairy replacement that bypasses substitute, along with Thunder and Weather Ball for rain teams! I've also added some additional contextual information in the analysis segments. Thank you all so much for the awesome discussion so far and I'm glad that Jolteon's traits are getting recognized!

tinyranitar said:
This looks very interesting and promising! Do you perhaps have some replay with this set in action?
Click to expand...

Not yet, but I'll make a note to grab some replays next time I'm able to play; I'm sure that some replays will additionally be posted here because of the hype building around Jolteon's Weather Ball variant.

As a side note; I might be trying an entirely new analysis format for my next writeup - depends on whether I can make it work or not, as it could potentially be a major upgrade that allows for more informative and visually pleasing posts!
 
Last edited:
Has anyone else tried Thunder Wave Kingambit? Something I've been messing around with.

Kingambit has this rough tension between wanting to be full HP at the end to help out it's sweep, but also wanting to use its nuts defensive typing early and take chip damage. The problem with the early switch in is it kind of sucks at making progress. It just bashes a physical wall for 10% then switches out. Thunder Wave in theory let's it make progress in early turns, and for later turns, anything slower than Kingambit is dead.

I like the theory, but in practice the 2 most common switch ins are Great Tusk and Gliscor, neither of which Thunder Wave touch.

I feel as though gen 9 is defined by this sequence:

Suicide leads set up hazards -> Great Tusk comes out to spin them -> Gholdengo/Dragapult switch in to spin block -> Tusk switches for Gambit to absorb the ghost/steel/dragon hit -> opponent's pivot comes in on Gambit, taking chip damage -> Gambit switches out on the opposing pivot mon, forfeiting momentum.

Looking for ways to find advantages in this sequence and I'm curious if anyone else has tried Thunder Wave on Kingambit for it.
 
TurquoiseLink said:
Has anyone else tried Thunder Wave Kingambit? Something I've been messing around with.

Kingambit has this rough tension between wanting to be full HP at the end to help out it's sweep, but also wanting to use its nuts defensive typing early and take chip damage. The problem with the early switch in is it kind of sucks at making progress. It just bashes a physical wall for 10% then switches out. Thunder Wave in theory let's it make progress in early turns, and for later turns, anything slower than Kingambit is dead.

I like the theory, but in practice the 2 most common switch ins are Great Tusk and Gliscor, neither of which Thunder Wave touch.

I feel as though gen 9 is defined by this sequence:

Suicide leads set up hazards -> Great Tusk comes out to spin them -> Gholdengo/Dragapult switch in to spin block -> Tusk switches for Gambit to absorb the ghost/steel/dragon hit -> opponent's pivot comes in on Gambit, taking chip damage -> Gambit switches out on the opposing pivot mon, forfeiting momentum.

Looking for ways to find advantages in this sequence and I'm curious if anyone else has tried Thunder Wave on Kingambit for it.
Click to expand...
Considering most Kingambit runs Black Glasses to have an unconditional boost with Dark Type moves and can somewhat forgo the power granted by it, you can try using Fling + Light Ball. This enables Gambit to actually paralyze ground mon and not give away your item slot. Though if Gliscor is already Poisoned prior, this can be a huge waste, but if against Great Tusk then it can be a surprise wrench in their gameplan.
 
Morkal said:
Jolteon
View attachment 648078

"Jolteon creates electricity using an organ in its lungs, which causes crackling noises as it exhales. It can also generate low-level electricity in its cells, which is amplified by the negative ions it gathers and generates in its fur, allowing it to discharge 10,000-volt lightning bolts." - Bulbapedia

"Hi everyone, sorry for the long absence. I can't be on as much as I used to be, but I figure that a new long-form analysis is quite overdue even if it's not as long as usual." - Morkal​

BASE STATSBST: 525
HP:
65
240 - 334​
Attack:
65
121 - 251​
Defense:
60
112 - 240​
Sp. Atk:
110
202 - 350​
Sp. Def:
95
175 - 317​
Speed:
130
238 - 394​

:jolteon:
Introduction​

Jolteon is... well he's Jolteon, he's part of that select group of Generation One Pokemon that even people who haven't touched a Pokemon game since 1995 know about even to this day. While Jolteon is beloved in the public eye, his performance in competitive singles took a nosedive starting with XY's OU metagame and things have not looked particularly good for him otherwise. However, Jolteon has been woefully underlooked in this generation despite having gained some incredible new traits along with deceptively favorable metagame conditions. Jolteon is an incredible choice for offensive teams in need of its particular talents.

:jolteon:
Jolteon Summarization
This section contains a "TLDR" of Jolteon's key advantages in the SV DLC2 OU metagame for those who don't want to read through the long-form essay analysis.​
  • Jolteon is one of the few Pokemon that (when terastallized) can completely wall Raging Bolt thanks to dual-STAB immunity from Tera Fairy and its ability Volt Absorb.
  • Jolteon's incredible base 130 speed outpaces every single OU Pokemon except for Deoxys-Speed, Dragapult, and Zamazenta. This is critical as it's one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed blazing-fast Pokemon such as Darkrai and Weavile and threaten them.
  • Jolteon's offensive role compression thanks to its speed, coverage, and solid base 110 Special Attack stat is incredible - allowing it to threaten key metagame threats such as Alomomola, Corviknight, Dondozo, Enamorus, Samurott-Hisui, and Skarmory.
  • Jolteon's newfound access to Tera Fairy allows it to stay in on and threaten or outright KO multiple problematic threats such as Darkrai, Dragapult, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and Kyurem.
  • Jolteon's newfound access to Alluring Voice as a Fairy-type coverage move allows it to bypass Substitute. Additionally, Jolteon's access to Weather Ball and STAB Thunder means that it's potent on Rain teams.
  • Jolteon can fit on a variety of offensive teams thanks to having STAB Volt Switch to be a fast pivot, and it pairs quite well with metagame staples such as Swords Dance Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, Great Tusk, and Zamazenta.
  • Jolteon's flexibility with Tera adds some newfound unpredictability to its game, as it can use Tera Ice to take on threats like Gliscor while it can use Tera Fighting to take on Kingambit and other specific threats.
Disclaimer: Jolteon is specifically meant for offensive teams in need of its specific talents; it does not fit well on more defensive builds, as the item choice it requires on those teams limits its power to levels that limit its usefulness. I very highly recommend checking out the wonderful SV OU Speed Tiers thread that Mada posted along with specific movesets for Jolteon's meta matchups. Also, this analysis will be smaller than my usual posts due to my slammed schedule + Jolteon's more narrow focus. So aspects such as defensive utility and teammates will be a brief overview.
View attachment 648082
Jolteon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt/Thunder (For Rain Teams)
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball/Weather Ball (For Rain Teams)
- Tera Blast/Alluring Voice

Special thanks to Bog Monster for reminding me that Alluring Voice is a great move that exists; that I blank-brained on for some reason, it's worth a slash-in here. Also special thanks to DaddyBuzzwole and Heatranator for talking through the benefits of Jolteon's access to Weather Ball alongside STAB Thunder on Rain teams.

Set Breakdown
View attachment 648091
​
This analysis will be comparatively shorter when compared to my other long-form analysis posts as this set is pretty straightforward. 232-speed EVs with a Timid nature puts Jolteon at 389, allowing it to outspeed neutral 252 EV +1 Dragonite, Hoopa-U, Mamoswine, and Blaziken who are locked at 388; this also keeps its speed advantage over threats like neutral 252 EV Dragapult and Timid/Jolly 252 EV Darkrai/Weavile. Special Attack requires the full 252 EV investment along with Expert Belt to hit specific damage benchmarks, while the extra EVs are put into Jolteon's workable base 95 Special Defense and can allow it to avoid the OHKO and 2HKO on some pretty gnarly moves in a pinch.

So what can Jolteon take on? Let's take a look at some of Jolteon's damage benchmarks with its two STAB moves - Thunderbolt and Tera Blast Fairy/Alluring Voice along with its coverage move Shadow Ball (we'll exclusively be focusing on Expert Belt-boosted attacks here).

Damage Thresholds
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - OHKO/OHKO chances
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 583-686 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 360-425 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 305-360 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 446-526 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dragapult: 396-468 (124.9 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 355-420 (111.9 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 377-446 (130.4 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 389-461 (110.5 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 463-547 (106.6 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 425-499 (146.5 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 283-334 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kommo-o: 533-634 (183.1 - 217.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 374-442 (127.6 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 362-427 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 552-653 (157.2 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 446-526 (138.9 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 396-468 (123.3 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 425-499 (127.2 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 326-389 (97.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 326-389 (95.3 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 319-377 (113.5 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - 2HKO/2HKO chances
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 140-166 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
(If Dragonite is chipped, it's gone. 252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 281-331 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 324-382 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 202-238 (64.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 204-240 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 182-216 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 175-206 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 305-360 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Primarina: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 182-218 (56.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 310-367 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 247-295 (63.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
View attachment 648096
Jolteon - 3HKOs
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 118-139 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 175-209 (34 - 40.6%) -- 39.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Additional Information + Conclusion
View attachment 648130
​
Jolteon has a phenomenal offensive presence on its team as you can see from the thresholds and unique threat combinations that it hits super effectively. Jolteon's minor Special Defense EVs allow it to perform feats such as avoiding an OHKO from Earth Power Kyurem pre-Tera and avoiding the 2HKO from Earth Power Kyurem post-tera. Jolteon partners exceptionally well with Zamazenta and the duo creates a phenomenal speed core along with covering each other's biggest issues. Dragapult, Great Tusk, and Kyurem also make incredible partners for Jolteon to help make up for some of its negative traits such as its quite poor physical bulk.

Jolteon has some unpredictability with Tera as well, as you can run Tera Ice to stuff Gliscor or Tera Fighting to whomp Kingambit. Jolteon is a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche toolkit and wonderful overall stats that have been made much better in the advent of SV's Terastallized metagame. Additionally, Jolteon can use Weather Ball, allowing it to decimate key threats on weather teams; Rain teams in particular appreciate Jolteon's talents and they also allow Jolteon to run Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, significantly buffing its damage output along with potentially crippling any non-immune switch-ins.

(I'm sorry the analysis is shorter than usual. I wanted to get this post about Jolteon up within my limited free time and I felt that with a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche like this, it would be informative enough as is!)
Click to expand...
From another fallen OU titan to another, I love this post a lot. Pretty cool to see Jolteon being talked about in modern day OU and ideas of niches for it being brought up considering it's one of my favorite Pokémon OAT
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
it's not an "archaic understanding", it is literally an official and current rule. a rule transplanted directly from on-cartridge formats, both programmed into the game and enforced by official competitions. you got a problem with species clause the way it's implemented? take it up with game freak, because smogon didn't create the clause
Click to expand...
Carl_the_turtle said:
Yeah this is a weird argument because all four deoxys formes have radically different stat distributions that result in them being tiered separately despite technically being the same pokemon due to the massive disparity in how useful they are at a point in time, same applies to the rotom formes, which despite having the same stat distribution, are tiered differently due to different movepools and typings massively affecting their viability. You list the urshifus as separate pokemon, but like rotom, they have the exact same stat distribution with the only differences being slight movepool changes and the typing. You cannot argue that pokemon formes are a bad faith argument when they work exactly the same as urshifu's different stances, it's either all or nothing and I'd personally rather take nothing.
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I'm sorry if yesterday I got too heated. This is something that's been irking me for some time. Maybe I'm oversimplifying the matter but for me the most relevant thing to consider is: can this mon change into that other form? For Deo and Oger, the answer is yes. For regional forms and very limited other mons (such as Wormadam), no. That's my whole point. Mons that cannot change into a different form with same dex number should be allowed concurrently. Then additionally, if the change is exclusively aesthetic, then also get those out (thinking about Gastrodon and hat Pikachu).

My point about archaic understanding is that I feel GF started realizing that people wouldn't be able to run both Ninetales or both Sandslash in one team and thus started doing divergent evolutions and paradox and convergent and shit, like Perrserker instead of Galarian Persian, Clodsire instead of Paldean Quagsire, etc... so I think they themselves realized they f'd up. If they ain't gon to fix their past error, I don't get why we can't, which is like, the whole point of smogon
 
Ehmcee said:
A lot of people that seem to talk about altering species clause in it's current form are misguided in my opinion, because ultimately I think any Tiering Policy change on this level should have pro's that heavily outweigh the cons, with a focus on OverUsed, similarly to how the Sleep Clause was handled.

A change to the current clause has to be objective and clearly understandable, Alternator is the only one that has proposed a concrete implementable adjustment to the current clause, which doesn't absolutely decimate lower tiers by allowing multiple of Silvally, Pikachu or Oricorios.

I don't think allowing regional forms on the same team as their regular counterparts is worth the headache of going through every single instance of multiple forms.

If a concrete situation is proposed, it would have to differentiate between the following list of duplicate forms btw:
For the purposes of this list, any Pokemon that is listed as a seperate physical Pokemon (typically with a different sprite), but share a Dex Number, this also uniquely focuses on gen 9 OU available Pokemon, ignoring old gens and Ubers, as well as mid-battle forms for the context of BH (which already has rules in place for this).
These are only for Pokemon with Concrete differences in Typing, Abilities, Stats or Movepool, these are the main objective criteria to go off, without including things like Pikachu Caps, Zarude forms, Gastrodon or others as well as even Gender Sprite Differences.


NON-REGIONAL

Tauros:

- Tauros-Paldea
- Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
- Tauros-Paldea-Blaze

Deoxys:

- Deoxys-Speed
- Deoxys-Defense

Rotom:
- Rotom
- Rotom-Heat
- Rotom-Wash
- Rotom-Frost
- Rotom-Fan
- Rotom-Mow

Arceus:
- All of them

Basculin:
- Basculin
- Basculin-Blue-Striped
- Basculin-White-Striped

Basculegion:
- Basculegion
- Basculegion-Female

Tornadus:
- Tornadus
- Tornadus-Therian

Thundurus:
- Thundurus
- Thundurus-Therian

Enamorus:
- Enamorus
- Enamorus-Therian

Keldeo:
- Keldeo
- Keldeo-Resolute

Vivillon:
- Vivillon
- Vivillon-Fancy
- Vivillon-Pokeball

Meowstic:
- Meowstic
- Meowstic-Female

Hoopa:
- Hoopa
- Hoopa-Unbound

Oricorio:
- Oricorio
- Oricorio-Pom-Pom
- Oricorio-Pa'u
- Oricorio-Sensu

Lycanroc:
- Lycanroc
- Lycanroc-Midnight
- Lycanroc-Dusk

Silvally:
- All of them

Toxtricity:
- Toxtricity
- Toxtricity-Low-Key

Indeedee:
- Indeedee
- Indeedee-Female

Oinkologne:
- Oinkologne
- Oinkologne-Female

Squawkabilly:
- Green and Blue
- Yellow and White

Ogerpon:
- Ogerpon
- Ogerpon-Wellspring
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame
- Ogerpon-Cornerstone

REGIONAL:

- Diglett
- Dugtrio
- Exeggutor
- Geodude
- Graveler
- Golem
- Grimer
- Muk
- Meowth-Alola
- Persian
- Raichu
- Sandshrew
- Sandslash
- Vulpix
- Ninetales

- Meowth-Galar
- Slowpoke
- Slowbro
- Slowking
- Weezing
- Articuno
- Zapdos
- Moltres

- Growlithe
- Arcanine
- Avalugg
- Braviary
- Decidueye
- Voltorb
- Electrode
- Sliggoo
- Goodra
- Lilligant
- Qwilfish
- Samurott
- Typhlosion
- Zorua
- Zoruark

- Wooper
- Tauros

For what it's worth, following Alternator's suggestion would allow for the following forms to be run together in OU:

- Tauros, Tauros-Paldea, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze, Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
- Rotom, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Frost, Rotom-Fan, Rotom-Mow
- Basculin or Basculin-Blue-Stripe, Basculin-White-Stripe
- Tornadus, Tornadus-Therian
- Thundurus, Thundurus-Therian
- Enamorus, Enamorus-Therian
- Hoopa, Hoopa-Unbound
- Lycanroc, Lycanroc-Midnight, Lycanroc-Dusk
- Ogerpon, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Ogerpon-Cornerstone
- Diglett, Diglett-Alola
- Dugtrio, Dugtrio-Alola
- Exeggutor, Exeggutor-Alola
- Geodude, Geodude-Alola
- Graveler, Graveler-Alola
- Golem, Golem-Alola
- Grimer, Grimer-Alola
- Muk, Muk-Alola
- Meowth, Meowth-Alola, Meowth-Galar
- Persian, Persian-Alola
- Raichu, Raichu-Alola
- Sandshrew, Sandshrew-Alola
- Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola
- Vuplix, Vulpix-Alola
- Ninetales, Ninetales-Alola
- Slowpoke, Slowpoke-Galar
- Slowbro, Slowbro-Galar
- Slowking, Slowking-Galar
- Weezing, Weezing-Galar
- Articuno, Articuno-Galar
- Zapdos, Zapdos-Galar
- Moltres, Moltres-Galar
- Growlithe, Growlithe-Hisui
- Arcanine, Arcanine-Hisui
- Avalugg, Avalugg-Hisui
- Braviary, Braviary-Hisui
- Decidueye, Decidueye-Hisui
- Voltorb, Voltorb-Hisui
- Electrode, Electrode-Hisui
- Sliggoo, Sliggoo-Hisui
- Goodra, Goodra-Hisui
- Lilligant, Lilligant-Hisui
- Qwilfish, Qwilfish-Hisui
- Samurott, Samurott-Hisui
- Typhlosion, Typhlosion-Hisui
- Zorua, Zorua-Hisui
- Zoroark, Zoroark-Hisui
- Wooper, Wooper-Hisui

I honestly think this is the implementation method with the least negative repercutions from any solution proposed as it comes to combinations, but ultimately, what would we even gain from this?
The only OU Cores that would ever see any level of viability would be Zapdos+Zapdos-G, Moltres+Moltres-G, Ogerpon+Ogerpon-Cornerstone+Ogerpon-Wellspring. All the others would be incredibly gimmicky or straight up unviable in the current OU landscape.

Having more freedom is cool and all, but it becomes very complicated to the newer player as well to understand which forms they're allowed together, and which forms they're not.
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Wooper-Paldea* plssss my little guy was crucial in Paldea's win in the EURO2024
 
Regarding Jolteon, why bother with Tera Blast on the main set if Alluring Voice is an upgrade in every way? Unless there's something I'm not understanding about Tera (does it get a power boost via hidden mechanic a la Ogrepon mask?)

Is here another Tera that can be slotted in to take advantage? Ice without Weather Ball, Ghost for STAB Shadow Balls, I dunno I'm just spit balling.
 
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sims796 said:
Regarding Jolteon, why bother with Tera Fairy on the main set if Alluring Voice is an upgrade in every way? Unless there's something I'm not understanding about Tera (does it get a power boost via hidden mechanic a la Ogrepon mask?)
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Ye there is a STAB (Same Type Attack Bonus 1.5x) boost once you tera fairy afaik unless you mean tera blast.Then fairy is a much better offensive move against most of the OU.
 
Faux Focalors Furina said:
Ye there is a STAB (Same Type Attack Bonus 1.5x) boost once you tera fairy afaik
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But that isn't inherent to Tera Blast, no? You get the same STAB boost on Alluring Voice as Tera Blast once you Teraform, except you aren't stuck with a Normal type move until then. I thought it was similar to the Ogrepon masks, where they have a hidden property of boosting the power of their moves more than advertised.

EDIT: I see my mistake, I had asked "what is the purpose of Tera Fairy" when I meant to ask "what is the purpose of Tera BLAST. FIxed.
 
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sims796 said:
But that isn't inherent to Tera Blast, no? You get the same STAB boost on Alluring Voice as Tera Blast once you Teraform, except you aren't stuck with a Normal type move until then. I thought it was similar to the Ogrepon masks, where they have a hidden property of boosting the power of their moves more than advertised.
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Ig the keeping original STAB of the user is the hidden property of boosting the power of their moves more than advertised.
 
sims796 said:
But that isn't inherent to Tera Blast, no? You get the same STAB boost on Alluring Voice as Tera Blast once you Teraform, except you aren't stuck with a Normal type move until then. I thought it was similar to the Ogrepon masks, where they have a hidden property of boosting the power of their moves more than advertised.

EDIT: I see my mistake, I had asked "what is the purpose of Tera Fairy" when I meant to ask "what is the purpose of Tera BLAST. FIxed.
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I think on fringe case if you are facing a Pokemon with soundproof and the like.
 
I was away for most of Sunday playing Day 2 of Go Fest, so I'd like to belatedly apologize for the Species Clause Circus that my food-for-thought posting seems to have kicked off. Also brief shout out to Bold School for being one of the few replies that went into the wider point I was curious about with Mons who are held back by Overlap with something better (Treads over Excadrill for example in their post)
 
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