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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Just gonna say I agree with all the unbans except for maybe darkrai which I expect to get banned in the near future. For some reason, whenever I read people´s posts about darkrai they completely ignore the tera impact it will have on the mon , constantly claiming it was nerfed while it did receive Knock Off as a tool, making it harder to answer reliably. Regardless, Volcarona, Roaring Moon and Gliscor were never broken in my eyes and they belong in OU, so good job giving them another chance. I will quickly add that it would be fair to test Zamazenta Crowned as well, since I was always of the opinion that regular Zamazenta was stronger, with regular Zamazenta being clearly balanced. I think there is a comparison to be made between Zama C and Hoopa, they are both high BST demons, except all Zama C does is smoke HO and Gambit (aka meta) and Hoopa smokes Stall. If we were in a meta like Gen8, people would claim Hoopa was the broken one and Zama was shit. With all of that being said, Im happy with the unbans in general and am hoping the meta settles soon for a Gholdengo suspect.
Honestly I do not necessarily think it will be banned,
doesn't match super well into most of the top threats if it doesn't use nasty plot or specs, and setting up in a meta full of hazards is well, frankly not gonna be easy in practice. Also without nasty plot or specs, it can miss out on a lot of OKHOs or 2HKOs like on 
and 
. I think that Darkrai could stick around since it seems managable to deal with honestly. Also forgot to mention its stab is only 80 base power.Also Zamazenta-C was busted because it actually has a good defensive typing to do what Zama-H does better even with a restricted item slot. That defensive typing and additional bulk makes all the difference.
Speaking of
though, AV Zamazenta seems like a really good Darkrai answer as you always answer Darkrai if invested in speed and it can deal with some other special attacking threats too.
I somewhat agree on Zamazenta-C. I feel one doesn't need to go out of their way to come up with team structures or cores to give the mon trouble. Lando-T + GKing, Gliscor's Spikes, Volcarona, Boldengo, Toxapex, Zapdos, etc. are all good Pokemon that I will be running irrespective of Zamazenta-C and can reasonably keep it in line, albiet Gliscor itself loses the 1v1. This Pokemon can't run all of Behemoth Bash, Crunch, ID, Body Press, Rest, Roar, Stone Edge, and Wild charge to win vs all of these threats. Being so vulnerable to passive damage is another flaw that I don't think Alolamola support will completely fix. That being said, I see a lot of players already aren't fond of normal Zama because of how high its stats are, and the innate Toxic immunity + higher SpDef of Zama-C will make it a more annoying cheese mon to face for certain HO structures. That being said, most HOes will have Gholdengo and Volcarona by default so I am somewhat skeptical to this claim. Regardless, for now, we don't need to let the dog out, especially as a good chunk of players want one of its best answers, Boldengo, banned.
In this post, the council said that base kyurem will be allowed:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9889958
This mon could be op, but we don't know if Kyurem will lose some moves or not.
The metagame is completely different from gen 8 ou. There are more hazards because of ghold and lack of defogers so Kyurem will be forced to use boots on many sets.
Also, DD Kyurem might strugle against steel types like ghold, gambit and heatran, depending on the move it learns.
Specs Kyurem could be hard to switch into, but is weak to hazards. Sub Roost could be annoying if it still learns roost, but IV and Waterpon can just do "encore", and Dragapult has infiltrator.
However, with tera, dd could be really strong, perhaps there will be a loaded dice scale shot icicle spears set in veil HO, which could be really hard to KO. (We don't know if it still learns scale shot)
This mon could be broken, or be balanced, it will depend on the metagame and the moves. I understand why the council will allow Kyurem.
so based pls give it scorching sands
My thoughts on some Ubers -> OU mons
Will probably be banned. Speed tiers look stupid with this thing's existence being the threshold for fast
Gross and will be banned as long as tera exists. Honestly kind of a dumb mon anyways with how much it can cheese wins with little counterplay
EHH i was a little iffy on this things ban to begin with but booster atk actually gives it crazy breaking potential. There are ways to get around it but its pretty overwhelming. Unless we get some good mons to check this this thing should *probably* go again but who knows what itll actually look like in the meta
this things brokeness is basically just ur evaluation of grassy terrain. If grassy terrain is such a good playstyle that giving it a very gross tool like sneasler is too much than this should be gone. But if were living in a metagame where grassy terrain and rillaboom are a little hard to come by I dont see an issue adding this again. This also depends mildly on the fate of other mons like gliscor
We do have some nice bulky water type answers to counter this thing. It isnt the craziest pokemon on this list imo and I could've seen this thing dropping but like roaring moon it is incredibly powerful especially on rain. It would be a good tool tho for the many broken pokemon on this list and still in OU but i dont totally hate this thing being gone. 
I think Zamazenta HERO is a dumb mon with the potential to be broken with the ban of a few more mons currently in OU
Lol stop the cope guys this thing is ubers
Hard to say this guy is pretty metagame warping. I think we're gonna try to see how the meta looks like with any removal options we get in dlc2 (which im betting are pretty sparse) I again really really just want to see this a Gholdengo-less meta but i can see how it would be stupid to keep in the meta either way. As an aside i really want to see how another decent toxic staller would do in the tier. Rise of skarmory?
if were retesting volc i think we can have a few weeks of freeze drying and substall 
Nah i really dont think this thing has a place. Ppl talk about how it doesnt have great speed control anymore but i dont think that matters if its breaking potential is just so high. Download gives it the only boost that itll really ever need and its movepool is completely insane. Itll be able to pick its matchups too well and just destroy teams from there. I personally dont even want to spend the time on it this gen.
That time where I Tera'd my x2 CM, Seed activated Sinistcha to Poison on the exact turn that my foe Tricked a previously unrevealed Black Sludge. I didn't get to play with it, the match ended there.
The chaos when Ogerpon Fire was allowed, cause it was soooo funny (but clearly uncompetitive).
The time, when my tera was burned and my
was tricked a 
, won a 1v1 with a banded 
because my 
stun spored it and it got parad 8 times in a row! all hail RNGWE GOT ALL TYPES OF REACT GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dnite was doing great when Moon was on the tierso I doubt much will change since they offer different roles and Dnite has way more utility.
Top 10 Mons in the final Teal Mask meta
10.
Still a GOATed sweeper, super potent and diverse and devilishly fast with Booster. One of the greatest cleaners of all time9.
Future Chilly is a very powerful and relevant combination and wearing this Mon down is a Herculean endeavor. 8.
Broken vs stall, really loves the Grassy Terrain fest the meta has become, thank god it doesn't have reliable recovery but god damn is this thing dangerous. Btw trapping, as always, is cringe 7.
very powerful Mon keeps a lot of broken stuff in the tier in check, excellent speed control, a nice boon for the rare balance team6.
we banned Gliscor for being unkillable but the defensive analogue to Chi Yu and Chien Pao is still around - no recovery and severe lack of immunities makes it way less satisfying than Gliscor to use but still an amazing hazard bot & the most reliable answer to Cheap Zapdos 5.
this things favorite pastime now is spamming thunder wave it feels like but still a crazy Mon that makes you ask "what's this thing going to do" every time it comes out 4.
In my last anti Rillaboom post I cited mostly my issue with how it matches into stall but honestly this monkey got off way too easy. This Mon, specifically its terrain and breaking power, along with the following 3 Pokémon, is responsible for BO being the only real team style at the end of Teal Mask3.
the devil incarnate forcing everyone to use Ting Lu, imagine creating a Mon that punishes the opponent for attacking and also can just spam Hurricane, a terribly designed move where whether it hits or misses someone on one side of the field is very angry2.
more broken than half the mons banned during DLC2, we seriously misfired, hits so hard, is so hard to switch into, but also can play so many different roles, like seriously why did they give it every move. This Mon is a major challenge for balance and stall, you have to build very deliberately around this and the next Pokémon on this list if you don't want to get just stomped, and you will probably waste your Tera because of it anyway and lose because of that. Why tf did they give it synthesis spikes knock off u turn every coverage move in the world and an amazing offensive and defensive type with crazy stabs, whoever above said this thing is better than rapid strike is right on the money1.
the life blood of this meta, another very difficult Mon to build around and respond to. Trick is extremely restrictive in and of itself and the best way to respond is your own Gholdengo, in fact Ghold is your best answer to most of the Pokémon in this top 10. It turning defog into a meme makes hazards even more potent than the disparity between setters and removers that already exists (which is why hazards would still be very good without Ghold, which I don't think is a bad thing) and the amount of offensive and defensive utility it compresses is genuinely absurd, why did they give it recover? Also like almost every other mon in the top 10 can also just spam Thunder wave all day. Huge challenge for balance and stall to overcome, absurdly potent Pokémon, solves problems but also causes them. By far without a doubt the best Pokémon in the game.
(definitely not the impostor)
1.'s first head
2.
3.
4.'s first head
5.
6.
7.'s first head
8.
9.
10. '&
)
My top 10 best moles of the DLC
mid list
1.
's first head2.
's second head3.
's first head4.
's third head5.
's second head6.
's third head7.
's third head8.
's second head9.
' ( 
)10.
's first head (bro missed a triple dive and lost me a game)
Personal top 10 of DLC1
1.
Gliscor had to suffer because of the sins of Ghold...
2.
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 169-199 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
3.
RIP Gliscor, I will really love it when you come back and Gholdengo gets banned
4.
Only one counter is dozo, everything else folds to +2 scale shot or icicle spear. Also borderline unkillable in snow and veil (u can only kill with a lucky crit) and can't be burned as a physical attacker.
5.
pov: you are one of the best non-tera firepon counters
+3 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Tera Fire Ogerpon-Hearthflame-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres in Sun: 357-421 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
6.
Baxcalibur 2: electric boogaloo!
7.
pov: you are one of the best non-tera waterpon counters
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss in Rain: 364-429 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
8.
Tusk is tusk, literally spins and commits murder. Sometimes walls things too.
9.
Best hazard removal that ghold doesn't stop, even though it's just temporary. Also hits pretty hard and has good support capabilities.
10.
Dondozo coming in after something sets up to +6 attack and taking negative damage. Literally so fat it won't die. Unfortunately, stall isn't the greatest at the moment so dozo is a little bit worse due to the lack of gliscor and the presence of ghold, forcing it to run boots.
celebration post for getting all types of react
wooooooooooooooooooooooooooThe time, when my tera was burned and my
WE GOT ALL TYPES OF REACT GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuck it we BALL.
10.
this thing is stupid underrated and is extremely effective in what it does, which is being a special wall that fits on teams that want to play the game9.
Hoodra isn't the best pokemon but it can fill a lot of team slots related to walling specific things. I like it. 8.
I hate this thing but it is the best way to kill Kingambit and Waterpon in one slot (choice band GOOD)7.
I hate this thing but it is very good.6.
I was a late adopter and I was a heretic of the church of Thundy for most of this meta, but I've come around he's good.5.
Bro is just immune to power creep4.
this guy needs to gholdenGO3.
easily the most banworthy thing in the tier as of just before the release of DLC22.
gender.pkmn1.
holy shit where do I even start with this guy. Heatran is fucking INCREDIBLE right now and was also REALLY good during gliscor sneasler format because of the prevalence of grassy terrain allowing it to just magma storm and sometimes kill stuff. Amazing role compression, forces iron moth to run a bad set if it wants to not be hard walled by him, and on top of that, he's real handsome.
Gonna do this based off how much I like using them lmao I think the VR already has viability down well enough
#1,
:I'd be lying if I didn't put this guy as my top #1, this is easily my most used mon and real ones know I've been spamming him since pre-Glide with Scarf. Banded is easily my go-to set but Boots and AV are cool, I don't really like SD much. Fits on HO, more general terrain Bulky Offence and can even be kinda slotted onto some more balanced builds, he only really does one thing but still feels versatile in doing it.
#2,
:Call the Falcons #7 cus my dog fighting... This guy really proved himself in DLC1 and I love using both the Iron Press matchup-fish HO/Sun killer and Boots 4 attack sets. A lot of fun on ladder and it's actually consistent and can be played as a blanket physical check, speed control and a win-con with clear win paths, very fun to use while not feeling too broken.
#3,
:This mon never fell off and for a minute after he dropped to UU there were way too many teams in high ladder that just did not respect this guy at all, very strong guy. My favourite set has been a somewhat janky Sp.Def Wisp set with Air Balloon, the role compression of walling half the special attackers in the tier while also getting free Wisps on mons that need to break the balloon or get outsped is pretty crazy.
#4,
:I did not expect to like this mon this much just because of it getting a single move, but even with a strong (potentially broken) Water Absorb mon in the tier Flip Turn Alo single-handedly enables a very niche team style that I personally love which I'd refer to as Wish Pass Bulky Offense, it was semi-usable pre DLC with Scream Tail and recipients like Hoopa-U but Alo breathes new life into this archetype.
#5,
:Hatt is just good in any meta, people assume that Samu-H invalidates it but that's only if you're only using it to try block every hazard (which is a bad idea anyway into Heatran). CM Hatt is a great sweeper that loves Tera but doesn't feel broken with it, with Psyshock and Stored Power as great options on different teams, I don't like Eject and I don't use much TR but both Leftovers and Grassy Seed have treated me well all DLC.
#6,
:The only reason this mon isn't higher is because you feel dirty after using it, Dire Claw isn't what breaks it at all but is a cherry on the cake if you don't want to rely on Gunk Miss (easier to do in Scor meta when Zap was less common). Who thought 130 Attack Unburden was okay? Another mon I've been using since before the DLC dropped, definitely agree with the ban.
#7,
:Mandi is a mon that I feel will never be OU by usage but will always have a place in the tier, the bulk is so nice while you don't feel as easily exploitable as Iron Press Corvi with tools like Knock Off, Toxic and Foul Play at your disposal. Great check to physical attackers without being specially frail, big fan of this mon.
#8,
:This is a really questionable but really fun mon that has actually put in a crazy amount of work for me on teams where I want to build with something unconventional, I've legit found myself using it to enable another shitmon instead of just being one itself. Banded traps and KOs Gambit and Heatran from full while doing a ton to Corvi, you can honestly build without fearing Gambit too hard if you use this guy since good bulk lets you live even +2 Sucker at 2 Fallen (and ideally you want to force Gambit in and trap it early with things like Fsight and Plot Ghold). Tldr: he's ass but he's gas...
#9,
:This is such a good glue mon and is an easy addition to any team that want a bulky pivot, with Fsight being a much appreciated presence in the tier and a customisable 4th moveslot letting you tech on picks like Twave, Toxic Spikes, EQ or Trick Black Sludge that always feel fun to have the option of using. Feels a little exploitable but with ways to play around everything, Chilly makes this a top tier mon.
#10,
:Okay this may be an even worse troll pick than Alolem (and I mean reg. Weezing here, not the actually viable Mr. 2 Stacks) but this mon is funny as shit LOL you wall Tusk, Zama and Sneasler forever while you can also run enough speed to Will-O-Wisp and Haze Kingambit, definitely terrible since it's a physical wall that loses to Waterpon (have fun eating crit Cudgels and not having reliable recovery) but it didn't even feel like the weakest link on the team I was using him on, shoutout Teal Ogerpon for being kinda just a bad Meow with Encore over more speed and STAB Knock.
Runners-up awards go to Dragapult, Valiant (but only Choice Specs) and Samurott-H, been a fan of all of these and particularly Encore Samu-H recently but they're not quite enough to make the top 10 for me. Also I love Great Tusk but he literally does the same thing every game and always gets the job done, more of an old friend than a mon to me lowkey I couldn't put him up here
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it is weird that we voted to bring back volcarona.
I really didn't see that coming.
is it because blissey is back to OU?
I really didn't see that coming.
is it because blissey is back to OU?
It's because, in part at least (I think), Volcarona's QB was dumb and it's also just not difficult to force tera and then kill it with something else
We have a much more stable meta compared to several months ago, with most of the broken stuff getting banned during or some time after Volcarona's own ban. We have more potential answers to it as well, and teambuilding as a whole has become a bit more flexible, with things like Encore (definitely not popular cause of Gambit, no no) being used quite frequently. The meta has also shifted from being primarily HO/H-stack centric to being more focused around Balance and maybe BO teams.
I'm genuinely curious to see how things go with Darkrai. I'm expecting, as others have said, that sleep won't be a big part of its gameplan except maybe in low ladder, which is a shame for how great and thematic a design it has. It doesn't look like it gets Gravity or any accuracy raising moves, but I do notice it gets Disable. Do you think any sort of Sub+Disable set could have niche use, either to fish for more sleep hits or let it boost/attack more?
If you could redesign Dark Void to be meaningful but still have a semblance of balance, what would you do? I had an idea that I've been sitting on:
Dark Void: At the end of the next turn (like Yawn), puts the opponent to sleep and traps them for the duration of that sleep. Cannot miss.
This would solve the RNG element but still leave a measure of control in both players' hands. It would force switches like crazy and be a cool checkmate against your opponent's final pokemon (like Perish Song), but it wouldn't let Darkrai avoid attacks aimed at it on that turn. It would inspire the sense of fear and impending doom that Darkrai should without being as much of a hit-or-miss cheese element. Do you think this would have given Darkrai some staying power in Ubers?
If you could redesign Dark Void to be meaningful but still have a semblance of balance, what would you do? I had an idea that I've been sitting on:
Dark Void: At the end of the next turn (like Yawn), puts the opponent to sleep and traps them for the duration of that sleep. Cannot miss.
This would solve the RNG element but still leave a measure of control in both players' hands. It would force switches like crazy and be a cool checkmate against your opponent's final pokemon (like Perish Song), but it wouldn't let Darkrai avoid attacks aimed at it on that turn. It would inspire the sense of fear and impending doom that Darkrai should without being as much of a hit-or-miss cheese element. Do you think this would have given Darkrai some staying power in Ubers?
top ten ~~canon gay ships~~ two mon cores of the meta
1. A-tales x Bax: this too is yuri
2. Rillaboom x Sneasler: forbidden bear x twink romance
3. Gholdengo x Ribombee: this too is yaoi
4. Great Tusk x Kingambit: enemies to lovers
5. Torkoal x Walking Wake: steamy and intimate
6. Glowking x Zapdos x Ting-Lu: Three's company
7. Skeledirge x Dondozo: alas, they are Unaware of each other's feelings
8. Gliscor x Dragapult: doomed toxic codependent yaoi
9. Glimmora x Hamurott: true love is collaborative
10. Iron Valiant x Roaring Moon: I'm running out of ideas this post is awful I'm sorry
the issue with any type of set like that is that you forfeit moveslots. (not to the rebalance yet)
Darkrai looks like it'll preform best when it has all of the coverage it needs to be threatening.
When you give up 2 moveslots (3 if you go nasty plot or hypnosis) then suddenly you have 1 (or none) coverage move and dark pulse stab. Yeah you can boost up or get in chip damage but... in a meta where there are clefables, kingambits, and a whole tier of mons ready to stop a sweep from kingambit, your dark pulse is gonna be hitting like peanuts. Even at a +2, you won't be sweeping games
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