Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[SittinGamer]

I am no qualified player but I only voted for like 3 fellas to drop, and only the secondmost peg to dropping, as none I think are objective benefits.

Volcarona I think just deserves its chance as a matchup fisher will continue to matchup fish. Gliscor I'd want to drop, but only if we see there is either viable new spinners or better removal options overall. Gholdengo will obviously do his thing, but more removal on things that arent Tusk or Defog on things which could threaten Gholdengo could do a bunch for making the metagame better. Darkrai is somewhat a desire for chaos, but if theres a time to test it, why not when quickbans are on the table and we can realistically avoid a lengthy suspect?

 

[TheTraininator]

The ONLY thing I will concede about Chi-Yu is that it was weird it wasn’t on the survey if Ogerpon-Hearthflame was. However I think they’re both busted-as-shit breakers that are too fast for how hard they hit, so I’m hardly pressed about it.

 

[Avira]

Here's how I voted:

Annihilape - 1 : Shits on anything slower

Baxcalibur - 1 : After getting Scale Shot, it is insanely broken, which is why it had the highest survey score for a ban ever.

Gliscor - 4 : It was only borderline broken when it was banned, and now there might be more checks. Worth a test, I guess.

Landorus-Incarnate - 1 : This is insanely broken, especially now that it has Nasty Plot.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame - 1 : Insanely oppressive for slower teams to face while not being deadweight against offense.

Palafin - 1: This has no business being tested as long as Tera is legal.

Roaring Moon - 1 : It is a stupid mon with very limited defensive counterplay that snowballs very easily.

Sneasler - 1 : Incredibly unhealthy mon with very limited defensive counterplay outside of Dondozo and Skeledirge.

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon - 1 : Dumb mon with 0 reliable and relevant answers in OU.

Urshifu-Single Strike - 1 : It was insanely broken in Gen 8. Wicked Blow may have been nerfed, but now it has Swords Dance to stomp some playstyles even harder.

Urshifu-Rapid Strike - 2 : I do not want this to be tested now that it has Swords Dance. I do not think it would be healthy for OU despite its speed tier and trash special bulk.

Volcarona - 4 : It deserves a test due to the process that lead to it being banned the first time.

Zamazenta-Crowned - 3 : I'm on the fence. It's good against HO and thuds against slower-paced teams, but there are also more mons it can set up on compared to Zamazenta-Hero 'cause of the bulk and typing.

Darkrai - 1 : It has 0 defensive counterplay aside from Muk-Alola. Nobody should want this freed unless you want offensive playstyles to be the only viable playstyles.

 

[Magcargo]

Chi-Yu is an indefensible Pokemon, Probably the most broken Pokemon ever allowed into OU period. I don't think a single mon we have banned yet has been remotely comparable to it in terms of brokenness aside from maybe Flutter mane, but even that could be dropped by priority and didn't just one round EVERYTHING when it can in. Chi-Yu just gets a free kill every moment it's allowed on the battlefield.

Chien-Pao was also broken AF but nowhere to the same degree.

 

[Avira]

Preach, Magcargo. Chi-Yu is the first Pokemon to ever be in OU that was basically an OHKO machine. It has no business being tested in OU again.

 

[658Greninja]

Speaking of fake checks...

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit in Grassy Terrain: 174-205 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 212-250 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth in Grassy Terrain: 154-181 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 282-332 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Again, all of these but Glowking and Ghold outspeed and one-shot Rillaboom. So even if you Wood Hammer Zapdos for 51%, you either hope they stay in and Roost or pray Hurricane misses.

"ah yeah you can beat the knock off user with a bunch of Pokémon whose survival depends on not losing their boots"

Heatran is a real counter, unless it's High Horsepower of course. And I will give you that Passive Corv never dies to it and doesn't care about knock.

Even without Boots, they all besides Molt can switch into Rilla perfectly fine. Knocking Boots off with Rilla has been a thing since Gen 8, and this gen Rilla has a nerfed Grassy Glide.

Also High Horsepower? Good point, too bad nobody runs that shit. Its too busy with Wood Hammer/Glide/Knock and U-Turn to bother.

Also like how you mentioned Corv but not Amoonguss, the best Rilla check you can find.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Probably the most broken Pokemon ever allowed into OU period.

i can agree for this gen, but does that also include older gens? skymin was legal once. hell, marshadow was even legal for like a day or two when it first dropped, and that was the gen 7 council who banned it so quickly. abr wouldn't ban something even if it physically manifested in real life and ate his 3ds, but even he recognized it was time to bring the banhammer down on marshadow

 

[Just A Baguette Car]

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

enjoy your 51% odds to get paralyzed/70% odds to be KO'd by the incoming hurricane because you're running adamant

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit in Grassy Terrain: 174-205 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

A: I didnt list this because it's not that great of a check.
B: 19% chance to OHKO is pitiful, and it OHKOs you back with +2 sucker punch after wood hammer. Also, who the fuck is running only 112 HP Gambit? You either run max speed or lots more bulk.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 212-250 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

things that beat band rillaboom:
pdef ghold

it's ok, I get it, reading comprehension is hard sometimes
also, if you're facing offense, you're trading, at MINIMUM, 92% of your health, with a good chance to be OHKO'd based on MiR rolls

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

who was listening offensive fucking tornadus as a rillaboom check? I suppose you think we also automatically slot on accelgor as a check for tusk because "it resists its STABs and can OHKO!!!!!" Strawmanning so hard rn

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth in Grassy Terrain: 154-181 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

can then ohko you, and also half the time runs pdef investment for booster speed.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 282-332 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

not only requires prediction but also just regens that health away with grassy terrain and regenerator and knock off is a roll not in your favor to 2HKO the next time it switches in.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

I'm a fool, but uh...

(single)

I really want these three to drop at the start of DLC2! Former two, because I think they'll be not a problem now, and the latter out of sheer visceral curiosity. Reading the last ~30-40 pages of arguments about Darkrai has been amusing, and I want to see just how bad, or how not bad, it is.

 

[Real Pikachu]

Annihilape - 3 : It's fine, eats shit to hazards super hard. U-Turn andies are the main victims.

Baxcalibur - 1 : Kyurem eat your heart out his ass better be going right to Ubers too.

Gliscor - 5: Shit is fine, didn't need to get thrown into the sun for Ghold's crimes.

Landorus-Incarnate - 1 :Life Orb Sheer Force is still unwallable especially when it gets Boltbeam now.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame - 1 : With webs fuck no.

Palafin - 5: Physical Manaphy that loses to any hazard, shit is ass.

Roaring Moon - 2 : Please just ban Booster.

Sneasler - 4 : Dude got banned for being Hawlucha.

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon - 3 : Slow and weak ass Vacuum Wave, but pretty obnoxious what it does to teambuilding.

Urshifu-Single Strike - 1 : Crits are fucking stupid.

Urshifu-Rapid Strike - 1 : Crits are fucking stupid.

Volcarona - 5 : War crimes this shit was ever banned.

Zamazenta-Crowned - 5 : Yeah bro so glad we banned the worse Zama.

Darkrai - 1 : Yeah bro like Tera Fairy doesn't instantly 6-0 any team after spikes.

 

[TheTraininator]

i can agree for this gen, but does that also include older gens? skymin was legal once. hell, marshadow was even legal for like a day or two when it first dropped, and that was the gen 7 council who banned it so quickly. abr wouldn't ban something even if it physically manifested in real life and ate his 3ds, but even he recognized it was time to bring the banhammer down on marshadow

I’m not sure I even agree for this gen. Flutter Mane, Tera Regieleki, Magearna, and Last Respects were all technically OU legal for a time.

…But Chi-Yu is still up there. Fish 2 funny.

EDIT: Also in terms of past gens, I’d like to also mention that for some godforsaken reason Zygarde Complete was not auto-banned prior to the metagame starting, so it was legal for a time too.

 

[Cuddly]

Chiyu having an ability that drops enemy SpDef 25% using 130 BP stab coming off 135 spa that can't be spammed without switching: banworthy

Rillaboom getting an automatic 30% boost to its 120 BP stab coming off barely less than 135 atk, recoil always offset by terrain: apparently ok?

The difference is actually pretty noticeable on their strongest moves.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Mew: 478-564 (118.3 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Mew in Grassy Terrain: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thing is that beads of Ruin affects all of Chi-Yu's moves, not just specific type of move. Dark Pulse, Psychic, Hex, and Tera Blast also get that effective x1.33~ boost.
Not only that, but Chi-yu also has that boost be permanent, has 2 STABs, is faster, has less weaknesses while having more resistances, and it's a Special Attacker, which means it wouldn't mind burns if it could be burned.

 

[taziathegreat]

because we still don't actually know what the signature move does, or what its movepool is like. what if it's got a gen 4 flareon movepool? or a pre-ss kyub movepool? what if the signature is just syrup bomb again? what if it hard-loses to every other dragon-type on the vr? i think assuming that it will be mid at best is wrong, but assuming it's going to be a powerhouse in the tier is equally wrong

100% we’ve seen it countless times, a Pokémon looked elite until we got the full picture

To be on topic though. I honestly voted 5 on almost everything. With the stipulations in the comments that depending on the additions we have anything that’s not clearly broken should get a chance.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

100% we’ve seen it countless times, a Pokémon looked elite until we got the full picture

hell, even the full picture can be misleading. back in gen 7, there were people assuming that pheromosa and kartana would be trash and guzzlord would be broken after they saw the datamined stats

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Oh there was a vote thing? I really gotta keep up with the times man...

Here's my thoughts on every OU banned pokemon + potential unbans (not in any order)

Rage Fist goes, so does this guy. Unfortunately, we can't ban signature moves -- so this thing stays Ubers imo

Trick Room made this thing a terror. If TRICK ROOM can break a pokemon, that thing has no right in OU

I mean... maybe??? It's not SUUUPER BAD for the metagame -- just has an unresisted STAB combination. But maybe that's just me. I actually think this could be OU legal

What if Slaking didn't have an ability? Now give it priority as well. Oh oh oh, and make it's defensive typing better. Yea yea yea now make it have no form of healing and less bulk. WHAT DO YOU MEAN Drain Punch heals??! It'll be fine man just let it be (this thing shall never step foot in OU ever in its life unless we unban Shadow Tag/Arena Trap, or we get back Pursuit)

This thing isn't OU material and all. Ice isn't gonna make this any less insane. But can someone tell me: WHY THE FUCK DOES THIS GET RECOVER?!

If Blissey is a sitting duck vs a special wall, and the only valid thing to beat you is Tyranitar, that is not a good sign of an OU pokemon

Speaking of special attackers, Bloodmoon Ursaluna. Without tera, this is pretty set in OU as like... B+ or C- maybe. But with tera, this and a lot of things are just too much to handle.

No tera means this thing is RUBL. Maybe. So long as there's a good Ground type, Regieleki is fucked

Guys they made special Blaziken... but in all honesty, probably OU without tera

Nah y'all aint OU material no more. Swords Dance + Auto Crit move AND bypasses Protect? Nope

We got out 3rd banned Ice type of gen 9. I really love Game Freak for buffing the Ice type by well... not making them Ice type, but this thing is so tedious to face with Loaded Dice Scale Shots and Icicle Spears. Can't even burn the thing or hit it with a Fire move or you make it stronger. Aurora Veil and Snow now being added doesn't really help the case of Baxcalibur. There is no hope for this being OU -- with or without tera

They gave this thing every single special move in the game, Calm Mind, and a Speed and SpAtk stat of 135. AND Protosynthesis gives it a free Choice Scarf with it being able to switch between moves. Absolutely not OU at all

The VGC titled, and possibly everywhere acclaimed "Roaring Mid" has denied the mid allegations. I'm proud of it for that. But Knock Off kinda broke Roaring Moon tbh. I wouldn't want this in OU again.

Volcarona is still Volcarona at the end of the day. Just ban tera and it's solidly OU

Lando I is banned by its sheer power, and I'm not even trying to be cringe with its Sheer Force ability. I think there's a world where this is OU. I don't really truly get why this thing is singled out among Sheer Force users. With the likes of Ogerpon Wellspring, Alolan Ninetales, Walking Wake, and other faster, stronger threats in the tier, this thing ain't really special. 101 speed is great, but now it feels kinda slow to make it work.

Oh I hate this fucker. Ban Gholdengo before we ever allow this in OU again. Those 2 caused too much hazard havok on this tier.

No. Just no. Dire Claw or Swords Dance Unburden alike, this is a Hawlucha that got high and got a gender swap. It didn't end well, and the same can be said for this thing.

Heatran -- a pokemon who resists Fire and Grass -- cannot stop this thing. Dondozo -- a mon with Unaware and stupifying physical bulk -- cannot stop this thing. The only thing that can actually halt this thing is Kommo-o, until Play Rough connects and now Kommo-o is sad. Mold Breaker with Fire-Grass typing is actually really good turns out. Not only that but it has a natural 1.2x boost to EVERY MOVE IT USES. We cannot allow this in OU unless something crazy happens.


Other Mentions
Nasty Plot is cool, Hypnosis is funny, but I do think this is fine in OU. Kinda gets walled by Kommo-o safe for like... 2 moves. That's honestly, pretty depressing. Let it be free in OU so that I can abuse this thing :3

ok, ok, ok. It could be me. It probably IS just me. But I don't think this is all that anymore. Serene Grace Seed Flare was kinda nutty back when we didn't have Covert Cloak. But then again, forcing Covert Cloak on something isn't exaaaactly healthy. Leech Seed stuff is also probably a pain in the ass to face. I think it could be unbanned, but not without some crazy meta tech used to out it.


I'm late ik, but I had to share my thoughts and continue the train. A lot of things here were banned because of terastillization. It's kinda sad to see REGIELEKI of all things banned. But it's for the good of the game ig. You can scold me all you want about my take on Iron Bundle and Skymin idc -- those things are perfectly fine in OU imo.


Edit: HOLY SHIT I FORGOT ZAMAZENTA CROWNED. I'm so sorry :(
This is in the same boat as hearthflame. It's forced into an item slot, but that really doesn't stop it from being obscene. Dauntess Shield got nerfed, Zamazenta in both forms also got a base stat nerfed, but ID Body Press is NASTY with Fighting-Steel typing and 92/140/140 bulk. It also got 128 speed... because that's totally fair. I do not think this thing has a right in OU whatsoever. Make it weaker or remove Body Press from its moveset -- then we can talk.

 

[im_platinum]

I will admit I'm not the best competitive pokemon player, but I do want to share my rankings anyway because why not

Annihilape - 2 : fighting/ghost is a great type combination, and rage fist is incredibly powerful when it starts taking hits. The meta has however changed a lot but that that really doesn't mean much with rage fist being as powerful as it is

Baxcalibur - 1 : this pokemon was already menacing pre teal mask but the introduction of A9 and the addition of scale shot has really made this dragon mini kyu-b. At the moment I don't think this pokemon is all that healthy

Gliscor - 5 : don't get me wrong, gliscor was a massive annoyance in the teal mask but it was more or less a necessary evil to keep the meta too polarizing after a few prior bans. Additionally with the return of new pokemon, I really think it would be safe to return it back to OU

Landorus I - 3* : Ill be honest and say I don't know all that much about what it was capable of in earlier gens as a relatively new competitive player, but with what I'm hearing about it gaining nasty plot, and the destructive mess it can reign with life orb and sheer force, I probably ranked this one wrong and it should maybe be a 1

Ogerpon hearthflame - 2 : mold breaker ivy cudgel under sun may contend for the most powerful nuke in OU seen in recent years, and while I still think wellspring is better, hearthflame is still too strong for ou. Even with a stealth rock weakness, I don't think it really matters when your hitting like Optimus prime when he rips his own arm off and uses it to beat the shit out of skywarp.

Palafin - 4* : I may be wrong with this one too, but in order to get to hero form, it needs to switch, and with ogerpon wellspring, the upcoming move upper hand, and a bunch of new moms returning, wave crash and jet punch are somewhat nullified, it may still be broken even then but I think it should be given a second chance.

roaring moon - 4 : roaring moon is very weird one for me, I feel the reason it got banned was for the negative publicity it got from certain prominent players which likely influenced its ban alongside the addition of knock off to its move pool. With raging bolt making its debut, it may be a great check to moon if it decides to go tera flying acrobatics like it did before it was banned with booster, and iron valiant can possibly encore it into d-dance. I ultimately think it should be re-tested at the very least.

sneasler - 3 : I think it was powerful as is before rillaboom rose it to prominence, but I still feel the same way about it, dire claw is basically a slot machine with hax, and unburden ensures nothing without priority gets in it's way of sweeping teams, I could see it re-tested in the future but I'm not too keen on bringing it back

ursaluna blood Moon - 1 : I don't think this should anywhere remotely close to OU, it's got a massive nuke in blood Moon that not even ghosts wanna take due to minds eye, calm mind to raise its power and bulk, moonlight for recovery and the last slot is there for whatever you want, you can even use it in trick room and get a lot of value out of it, so I'm gonna give it a hard no

Urshifu single strike - 4 : I never got to deal with this pokemon back in swsh out but with the addition of swords dance, I think that it's power ensures almost nothing walls it, but even then, gholdengo and kingambit are very powerful so darkshifu has alot of value and I think it should be tested

Urshifu rapid strike - 4 : same here with rapid strike, swords dance is a great move to have and it does take better advantage of its ability to ensure stall mons like gliscor can't take full advantage of poison heal. However as with many water mons, wellspring is a threat that pretty much counters watershifu not to mention additions like serperior using it as setup fodder with lead storm. Ultimately I think it should also be tested back

volcarona - 4 : tera is the main thing that made it as powerful as it is and while it's quickban may have been the right move, kingambit still exists and can basically be whatever type it wants. If tera gets banned, volcarona should absolutely be unbanned along with it if it isn't re-tested

zamazenta crowned - 3 : I don't really have much to say here, the addition of a steel type makes it a much better defensive mom, and iron press is still very good with zama crowned, it does gain a few new weaknesses but you also gain more resists and your doing the same thing you were doing with zama hero. It would probably be fine but I'm not to keen on having it in OU.

Darkrai - 4 : with dark void being nerfed, all it really is to me at least is another offensive dark type in a meta with many offensive dark types that have came and gone. I think it should be re-tested with the dark void nerf and see if it may come back to OU.

as for things I want to see come back, I'm really going to to say regieleki in the case tera gets banned.

Another mon id like to see come to OU would oddly enough be Lugia. Psychic/flying isn't very good defensively with it being weak to various common types like ice, ghost, and dark and you dont really get as much value out of multiscale as you would with Dragonite despite its superior bulk. Additionally 90 atk/spa is not that good, it's not passive but it's not good either. I could see it using a calm mind set but that's as much as I can think Lugia would be capable of, and even then it would be walled by anything with unaware. I may be wrong about Lugia but I think it absolutely should be tested in OU.

as for things I want to see banned, something no one really seems to be talking about is revival blessing. With smeargle returning, having it use revival blessing to revive powerful threats will grow to become very annoying and even aggravating at times. A lot of you might not agree though, but I think revival blessing might have to be banned with the indigo disk.

another mon I wouldn't mind seeing go would be ogerpon wellspring, water absorb pre tera is very restricting and ivy cudgel hits like Optimus prime. Additionally it has trailblaze for speed control and horn leech for healing. Overall I think banning wellspring would be good for the health of the meta.

and those are my general thoughts as a casual competitive player. You may feel differently than I do and I would like to hear those thoughts.

 

[artificialdeath]

Preach, Magcargo. Chi-Yu is the first Pokemon to ever be in OU that was basically an OHKO machine. It has no business being tested in OU again.

Dracovish?

Either way, I agree. This honestly applies to a lot of the mons on the list, they're just comically overpowered (even if I still feel that if Magearna can be unbanned, so should Lando-I, for reasons I have described before) and should not see the OU tier again barring massive nerfs.

 

[Moyashi]

roaring moon - 4 : roaring moon is very weird one for me, I feel the reason it got banned was for the negative publicity it got from certain prominent players which likely influenced its ban alongside the addition of knock off to its move pool.

this is such a bizarre take. RM wasn’t banned because prominent players pushed for it. It was utterly dominant in tourney play and crushing the tier. It has minimal counter play which ends up being shakey.

 

[Vert]

i can't speak for everyone but i found the gliscor + roaring moon metagame 10x more competitive than these 2 zap-king-lu ones we've played. it'd be disappointing if DLC2 results in us playing that for a third time straight.

the whole spikes issue that came with gliscor was exaggerated; apparently ting-lu's skill-less 800BST ass and monkey brain samurott-h are chill, but gliscor was the real killer of the hazard game. the swords dance set with tera was phenomenal but was it really better this gen unlike previous ones where you can support it via pursuit? the question to me wasn't whether its sets were broken. it was do we have enough top-tier threats with ice beam to justify how centralizing gliscor is? SV is lacking in this department unlike SM where we had z-move manaphy, m-lati@s, full power greninja, kyurem-b, weavile, hidden power... luckily next week we won't just have manaphy but also darkrai as an ice beam option. yes i'm aware weavile still exists but that thing lost half of its utility when roaring moon got banned.

roaring moon was UU prior to DLC but somehow knock off alone made this broken? knock off didn't solve any of the issues it had during pokemon home like (a) finding safe set-up, (b) picking its 4th move, (c) vulnerability to common priority, & (d) reliance on tera to break common shit like zamazenta, ting-lu, gliscor... man is it a depressing feeling when you tera just to get revenge killed by kingambit sucker punch afterwards :[ there were also healthy metagame adaptations for it like sticky barb clefable, physically defensive zapdos, landorus-t and aforementioned weavile usage. we should have more counter-play to it next week though. skarmory i can't see being bad and it 1v1's every roaring moon set without taunt. another concern DLC1 was traditionally outspeeding it but this won't be the case anymore with choice scarf darkrai and sand rush excadrill.

in my opinion, the gliscor + roaring moon bans were due to people hating the metagame but not knowing how to actually go about change. sneasler should've been targeted first in hindsight. it was grassy terrain's strongest warrior, consistently getting 60%+ SCL win-rates post-bloodmoon. roaring moon on the other hand had mediocre win-rates after the bloodmoon ban, with its final week being an exception (and to no surprise, almost always paired with sneasler terrain).

i see little competitive merit to our current tier with all the zapdos / slowking-g pivoting, samurott-h monkey clicks, and amount of resources needed to beat ting-lu. take heart manaphy and ogerpon-w are also extremely cheese, the consistent type too. at least roaring moon was a honest set-up 'mon that clicked dragon dance, knock'd a few items off, then died. ogerpon-w however is swords dance +2 atk → tera +1 spd → trailblaze +1 spe → horn leech all the health back LOL like piss off bro. then you play the alternative play rough or zen headbutt coverage and feel like logging off. when gliscor was in the tier however skill-less zapdos was much more manageable while ogerpon-w leaned encore sets to punish it. roaring moon was the foil, challenging gliscor players to find different lines around its knock off while conveniently keeping both cheese water-types in check. and this is not a case of "broken checks broken" as i found both 'mons balanced.

baxcalibur (valid reasoning in blunder's video) and kyurem are worth re-testing for checking gliscor and zapdos too, but i can't see either ice / dragon lasting too long unless kyurem loses roost.

i want to make it clear i respect the results of the suspect test. the question i have for our playerbase though is whether you're interested in a 3rd version of this zap-king-lu metagame? do you genuinely prefer this over the gliscor + roaring moon metagame? personally, i thought the gliscor + roaring moon tier during OLT playoffs and mid-SCL was decent outside of the grassy terrain sneasler bullshit.

another funny thing i was discussing with friends was how many SV games come down to whoever wins with zamazenta first, lol? and mf's are worried about darkrai, just say you're scared of the design pussy

 

[im_platinum]

this is such a bizarre take. RM wasn’t banned because prominent players pushed for it. It was utterly dominant in tourney play and crushing the tier. It has minimal counter play which ends up being shakey.

you are right in the fact that it was very dominant in OU before its ban but you also have to account that it was a very hazard centric metagame where gliscor, gholdengo, and ribombee reigned supreme. It also doesn't help that there were other disgusting threats before it like ursaluna blood Moon and sneasler (the latter of which got banned after moon) were some of the premier powerhouses in OU.

It was not until it got knock off that people realized that it was a monster. during the tournament that was placed some time after the teal mask, it would end up garnering scrutiny from many good players and even members of the OU council despite the only thing changing with it being that it now had a reliable dark stab which plays directly into my point that people were calling for its ban.

 

[pokeclysm]

Alright, here are my unban opinions:

- 1. A bit of a hot take, but this would still be OU even without Rage Fist due to being a near-perfect hazard blocker. It blocks rapid spin and Defiant means nothing wants to defog in its face. The fact it also gets a 350 power nuke on top of that means it'll never be safe to unleash onto OU.

- 1. It was unanimously thrown out of OU 4 days after DLC 1 dropped, and a grand total of nothing introduced in DLC 2 reliably walls it. No thanks.

- 3. This really depends on what happens to Gholdengo. Both of them probably can't exist in the tier at the same time, but if Gholdengo is banned it'd probably be okay to bring it back. It shouldn't be unbanned immediately, but it should be looked at later.

- 1. Sheer Force + Life Orb + Nasty Plot = Death. Unless the tier is entirely Ice Types, this'll never be okay to drop.

- 1. A free +1 off an already great attack stat and a good speed stat combine to make a monster. Given how great Wellspring is right now, we definitely don't need this running around.

- 1. 660 stats including 160 attack and functionally no downside is not something that should be let into OU. Pass.

- 2. This isn't as broken as most of these, but it's still a powerful setup sweeper in a tier filled with them, and its high speed and great bulk means revenge killing isn't reliable either. And Knock Off gives it use even if it's somehow walled.

- 1. Even with Gholdengo this was ridiculous, and Ghold is high on everyone's radar. It's strong, and with Rillaboom it could easily outspeed everything. Unless we ban rillaboom (and why would we) this should never return.

- 1. Nothing can take its Blood Moon, and it's still as long lived as ever. Nah.

- 1. Swords Dance is a silly move, and even with Ogerpon blocking Surging Strikes, Water remains a great offensive type. Toxapex is fringe, and pult is good but can be worn down by other party members. I'll say no here.

- 1. Same deal with Rapid, but with even fewer defensive stops.

- 4. It was kind of an odd ban when first announced, but I will concede it made the meta better. However, with power creep it's probably time to bring it down again. Granted, introducing another setup sweeper into a tier could be concerning, but Volcarona is the weakest of them, so it's a good place to start.

- 2. Similar to volc, it's another sweeper, and though it can't boost it's speed, it's more immediately devastating. Probably shouldn't unban immediately, but if Volc is fine it could be worth considering.

- 3. I'm on the fence here. Hero was fine, and there has been more power creep, so maybe this will be too? On the other hand, a built in toxic immunity and higher bulk are both advantages. Could be worth dropping, could be worth keeping in Ubers.

 

[658Greninja]

i can't speak for everyone but i personally found the roaring moon + gliscor metagame 10x more competitive than these 2 zap-king-lu ones we've played. it'd be disappointing if DLC2 results in us playing that for a third time straight.

the whole spikes issue that came with gliscor was exaggerated; apparently ting-lu's skill-less 800BST ass and monkey brain samurott-h are chill, but gliscor was the real killer of the hazard game. suck my dick. the swords dance set with tera was phenomenal but was it really better this gen unlike previous ones where you can support it with pursuit? the question to me wasn't whether its sets were broken. it was do we have enough top-tier threats with ice beam to justify how centralizing gliscor is? SV is lacking in this department unlike SM where we had z-move manaphy, m-lati@s, full power greninja, kyurem-b, weavile, hidden power... luckily next week we won't just have manaphy but also darkrai as an ice beam option. yes i'm aware weavile exists but that thing lost half of its utility when roaring moon got banned.

roaring moon was UU prior to DLC but somehow knock off alone made this broken? knock off didn't solve any of the issues it had during pokemon home like (a) finding safe set-up, (b) picking its 4th move, (c) vulnerability to common priority, & (d) reliance on tera to break common shit like zamazenta, ting-lu, gliscor... man is it a depressing feeling when you tera just to get revenge killed by kingambit sucker punch afterwards :[ there were also healthy metagame adaptations for it like sticky barb clefable, physically defensive zapdos, landorus-t and aforementioned weavile usage. we should have more counter-play to it next week though. skarmory i can't see being bad and it 1v1's every roaring moon set without taunt. another concern DLC1 was traditionally outspeeding it but this won't be the case anymore with choice scarf darkrai and sand rush excadrill.

in my opinion, the roaring moon / gliscor bans were due to people hating the metagame and not knowing how to go about change. sneasler should've been targeted first in hindsight. it was grassy terrain's strongest warrior, with sneasler consistently getting 60%+ SCL win-rates post-bloodmoon. roaring moon on the other hand had mediocre win-rates after the bloodmoon ban, with its final week being an exception (and to no surprise, almost always paired with sneasler terrain).

i see little competitive merit to our current tier with all the zapdos / slowking-g pivoting, samurott-h monkey clicks, and amount of resources needed to beat ting-lu. take heart manaphy and ogerpon-w are also extremely cheese, the consistent type too. at least roaring moon was a honest set-up 'mon that clicked dragon dance, knock'd some items off, then died. ogerpon-w however is swords dance +2 atk → tera +1 spd → trailblaze +1 spe → horn leech all the health back LOL like piss off bro. then you play the alternative play rough or zen headbutt coverage and feel like logging off. to no surprise, when gliscor was in the tier skill-less zapdos was much more manageable while ogerpon-w leaned encore to punish it. roaring moon was the foil, challenging gliscor players to find different lines around its knock off while conveniently keeping both of the cheese water-types in check. and this is not a case of "broken checks broken" as i found both 'mons balanced.

baxcalibur (valid reasoning in blunder's video) and kyurem are worth re-testing for checking gliscor and zapdos too, but i can't see either ice / dragon lasting too long unless kyurem loses roost.

i want to make it clear i respect the results of the suspect test. the question i have for our playerbase though is whether you're interested in a 3rd version of this zap-king-lu metagame? do you genuinely prefer this over the roaring moon + gliscor metagame? personally, i thought the gliscor + roaring moon tier during OLT playoffs and mid-SCL was decent outside of the grassy terrain sneasler bullshit.

another funny thing i was discussing with friends was how many SV games come down to whoever wins with zamazenta first, lol? and mf's are worried about darkrai, just say you're scared of the design pussy

Though I am not a fan of the current state of the meta rn, I also never wanna go back to Gliscor meta. Let alone with Moon in the tier.

I do agree that Gliscor provides teams with an excellent defensive glue that also keeps Zapdos from spamming Volt Switch. It also had a valuable role as a Knock absorber which was helpful for Boots Spam.

BUT

It was an unhealthy part of the meta that limited teambuilding options, warted out a ton of other options like Lando-T and Chomp, as well as making the apparent Spike stacking issue worse.

Ting-Lu is incredibly bulky, letting it get multiple spikes before dying, but it lacked reliable recovery and thus can be outlasted through out a game. That way you can remove/Court Change the spikes.

Samu is excellent at making progress with unblockable spikes and access to Knock and SD, but is also frail and only gets switch ins from pivoting + 1-2 switch ins to Ghold/Gambit. Not to mention having the same problem with longevity as Ting-Lu but worse.

Now imagine having both qualities and none of the drawbacks, you get the unholy flying scorpion.

There is no way to safely remove the hazards or outlast it. Gliscor eats an Ice Spinner and clicks Toxic vs Tusk, so Tusk has to run tech like Substitute just to spin, plus it’s forced to run Ice Spinner to even touch the bastard. Cinderace is absolute dogshit vs it, ironically inviting it back in to spit out the hazards again.

No matter what, Gliscor was getting those hazards up. So it pretty much forces you into Boots Spam or HO. Even then, Gliscor is hell to switch into, nothing likes Toxic and/or Knock, the only thing that is switching in is Clefable and other Gliscors.

“just use the ice move” mfers when Gliscor clicks Tera Water.

So in a nutshell, Gliscor is able to make progress much easier than you can deny its said progress. That’s why it is banned in the first place.

Moon had no counters, just Dozo and ID Corv. It outsped everything at +1, even non-binary icon Iron Val. Knock/Acro/EQ hit everything off its base 139 attack. No thank you.

On the topic of saturated Ting-Lu/Zapdos/Glowking cores. The blame shouldn’t be on the departure of Gliscor/Moon, but rather cause our options are constrained. Back in Gen 8, we had SpD Lando, Tankchomp, Gastro, Drill, and Hippo. While you could fit the former two onto teams, it feels awkward when you’re forced to slap Tusk onto your team unless you’re running Boots Spam. When the most common electric immune is weak to Hurricane, that becomes a problem. Again, its cause of the spike stacking mess created by Ghold. Banning Ghold would encourage more teambuilding options like Mandibuzz, Corv, Amoonguss, Pex, etc.

 

[pokeclysm]

another funny thing i was discussing with friends was how many SV games come down to whoever wins with zamazenta first, lol? and mf's are worried about darkrai, just say you're scared of the design pussy

I'm not saying Darkrai is absolutely Flutter Mane levels of ridiculous, but first Zamazenta is still a great Pokemon that whomps offense, and Darkrai would have some niches over it. It's still plenty fast, still bulky enough to not instantly get flattened, and Kingambit's sucker punch. Zama also has trouble with anything it can't beat with Iron Press, because it has to rely on its wimpy coverage options, while Darkrai's Nasty Plot boosts it's coverage moves and can foil most switches. With how many sweepers that have proven broken, you can see why people are reluctant to try and drop one with 135 Special Attack and 125 Speed, especially without reliable special walls in the tier.

 

[lax]

I'd just like to post to say that OU Council could use some ladder hero representation on their team, specifically Vert and Storm Zone. Even if the council members find them too feisty or disagree with their opinions, I appreciate the fact that they always have their own concrete opinions and will undoubtedly question whether something is broken by experiencing it on their own through ladder and tournaments.

Vert and Storm Zone are the best ladder players of this generation with consistent accounts >2k. I think the council should be shoving aside any beef they have with them and practically beg them to help tier this upcoming DLC wave, which is obviously gonna be crazy.

The benefits here are that you have two of the most influential SV OU players weighing in on decisions and discussions and that they would help bridge the gap between council and the average player. I genuinely do appreciate everything Finch does for the tier and I've seen him constantly reply to users on this forum. This isn't something any other council member does to this extent, and having ladder heroes as representatives of the tier is something players can relate to and understand their perspectives.

Apologies if this isn't the right place to do this and I don't even know if they've been asked recently, but I think it's important to add two very relevant, influential players to assist with tiering decisions as this new change approaches. Maybe even as a trial period if people think they can be too controversial. I'm curious if the average forum poster or ladder player agrees with this, and I don't mean average as an insult. I consider the "average poster" to be someone who doesn't join every single Smogon tournament ever and invest as much time as the established tour players do, but they still care about the tier and the game.

To add some actual meta-relevant thoughts: I agree that Ting-Lu, Zapdos, and Samurott-H are no-skill enabler Pokemon. Static + Hurricane + momentum move in U-turn/Volt Switch is just so free to slap onto most teams and always generate value. Ting-Lu gets Spikes and Stealth Rock, Ruination and EQ with a high base stat, Whirlwind, and a broken Pokemon ability in Tablets of Ruin. It's funny that if Ting loses any one of these above traits, it becomes so much more balanced lmao. Samurott-H's move should've never been real, but it's technically from a mickey mouse game. Sharpness is an insane ability and getting a Spike with an attack is undoubtedly OP. I don't know if these mons should be banned per se, but I know that these mons are basically free to use on any balance/bulky offense team and will always get value

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I'd just like to post to say that OU Council could use some ladder hero representation on their team, specifically Vert and Storm Zone. Even if the council members find them too feisty or disagree with their opinions, I appreciate the fact that they always have their own concrete opinions and will undoubtedly question whether something is broken by experiencing it on their own through ladder and tournaments.

Vert and Storm Zone are the best ladder players of this generation with consistent accounts >2k. I think the council should be shoving aside any beef they have with them and practically beg them to help tier this upcoming DLC wave, which is obviously gonna be crazy.

The benefits here are that you have two of the most influential SV OU players weighing in on decisions and discussions and that they would help bridge the gap between council and the average player. I genuinely do appreciate everything Finch does for the tier and I've seen him constantly reply to users on this forum. This isn't something any other council member does to this extent, and having ladder heroes as representatives of the tier is something players can relate to and understand their perspectives.

Apologies if this isn't the right place to do this and I don't even know if they've been asked recently, but I think it's important to add two very relevant, influential players to assist with tiering decisions as this new change approaches. Maybe even as a trial period if people think they can be too controversial. I'm curious if the average forum poster or ladder player agrees with this, and I don't mean average as an insult. I consider the "average poster" to be someone who doesn't join every single Smogon tournament ever and invest as much time as the established tour players do, but they still care about the tier and the game.

i think expanding the council is actually not a good idea when tiering needs to be as swift and decisive as it'll have to be at the start of dlc2. generally, adding more people will add more opportunities for things to get delayed, especially around this time of year when everyone's busy with non-pokemon stuff too (finals, increased work hours, family, etc). but i can see where you're coming from and i agree that accepting at least one person with super-extensive ladder experience onto the council would be a good idea, just not right now. once things settle, this idea should absolutely be revisited, but things will be hectic enough without adding extra variables into the mix