Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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YubelVT said:
ok but you can have metagame deviation while also having an actually good metagame (see gen 3-7)
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Isn't that what I was trying to say
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It's me! The guy who will keep workshopping Iron Hands sets until the sun consumes the earth! Following along with the latest trends, I come to you with:

Tera Ice Iron Hands:
Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 192 Atk / 156 SpD / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake / Thunder Punch

I messed around with Tera Ice Hands very early in SV, but Ice is such a terrible defensive type in a vacuum that only having Chilly Reception for snow support really hurt it. Now, though, I've been running this with Slowking for early match pivoting and Atales for late match Veil support to clean up, and it's putting in work -- and while Ice is a bad defensive type by itself, it has zero overlapping weaknesses with Iron Hands' base typing, so you can get that "free turn" effect to KO a check and potentially roll through the rest of the opposing team.

How does Tera Ice stack up against the `mon that perpetually limits Iron Hands' viability?
+2 192+ Atk Tera Ice Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands: 153-181 (34 - 40.3%) -- 40.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands in Snow: 102-121 (22.7 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands in Snow: 204-242 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pretty well, and that's without Veil support.

Those calcs should explain the 192 Atk. The 160 Spe is probably a bit team-specific, as it outruns (non-Booster Speed) Iron Moth after paralysis. 144/148/152 all also work depending on how much work you want to put in trying to creep Gambit with the rest going into SpD. EQ vs Thunder Punch is also a tossup based on what your team needs. Fighting + Ice + Ground hits 12 types SE, which is nuts, but Thunder Punch helps out with all of the (Tera) Water threats out there. Obviously, that includes Gliscor, who does not want to play footsies with Iron Hands:
192+ Atk Tera Ice Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 336-400 (94.9 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Note that Thunder Punch also opens up the option of running Punching Glove over Leftovers, at which point you can go 96 +Atk/252SpD and still exceed the damage thresholds above while avoiding Static/Flame Body procs, but I haven't tested it, and that feels like bait compared to the consistent recovery of leftovers.

In general, the set works well to either punch holes early or to clean up late. Late match, under Veil, there's just not a lot that anything can do to Iron Hands, leaving you free to just batter your way through whatever is left of the opposing team, Drain Punching weakened `mons into oblivion to keep yourself fresh enough to finish the job:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 277-327 (61.6 - 72.8%)
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 154-182 (34.2 - 40.5%)

<3 this chonky boi
 
Haven't seen much talk about Greninja, but I think it has a lot of potential right now. I've been using it a lot lately and have had some decent success. Specifically with everyone's favorite "trying to be different" set, mixed protean (yippee!).

mc complex (Greninja) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water/idk do it really matter
EVs: 116 Atk / 140 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam/Dark Pulse
- Gunk Shot/U-Turn
- Low Kick

I stole this set awhile ago because it was to fight volcarona but now I'm repurposing it. The attack evs guarantee ohko with low kick vs kingambit. Scarf seems dubious on a pokemon with not mindblowing offensive stats but it actually helps a lot. You outspeed booster valiant (please don't have vacuum wave!!!), dragapult, +1 ogerpon, hell it outspeeds everything relevant besides like, scarf meow. Unless some psychotic asshole out there starts using scarf pult, you're safe.
This set hits a lot of stuff for threatening damage, main issue is 4mms. Due to the Biden Administration's tyranical laws, you cannot have all 8 moves on greninja.

Dog walking list (bold is for stuff only that move hits super effectively/one shots)
Hydro pump: Clean shot vs tusk, gliscor (ice beam prefered), lando, cinderace, iron moth, ursaluna bloodmoon, moltres (ice beam/dark pulse hardly dents spdef moltres) and it's generally you're strongest attack. Sadly only a 3HKO vs defensive gholdengo and only an 80% chance to 2HKO scarf variants. Just don't miss he he.

Ice beam: Aforementioned ground types, Zapdos, Amoongus, Kommo-O, Enamorous, Dragapult. This isn't as strong as hydro pump, but it's safer and still tags a lot of big threats rn.

Gunk Shot: Iron Valiant, Ogerpon-Wellspring (still 2HKO even with tera, easy OHKO without), Clefable, really any fairy lol. This is also your best damage vs stuff like Manaphy (who you probably shouldn't be fighting in the first place, but it is a 3HKO vs 248HP/0 def variant).

Low kick: Kingambit and that's it. I think that's a solid selling point though lol. Especially considering you resist both of its stabs.

That's who I target. Dark pulse is good for gholdengo and arguably more importantly glowking but idk if I would recommend it over ice beam. You get an 80% 2HKO vs the non av glowking but you also can't threaten a bunch of other threats as easily or as safely as before. U-Turn over low kick or maybe gunk shot is also up for debate.

Anyways cool pokemon. I'd recommend giving it a shot.
 
YubelVT said:
Anyone who says gg after losing to kingambit is lying. There's just no fucking reason to keep this shitstain in the tier. Excise the problems with the meta, starting with gambit
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Gambit was out of the radar for a few weeks cause of the other broken shit foreshadowing it. With Bax and Firepon gone, people remembered its still borderline broken. A few new things in the tier have helped. Mola can eat an SD + Max Supreme Overlord boosted Kowtow Cleave from Gambit even after rocks.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 390-459 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mola then can either fish for a Scald burn or pivot into something like Valiant or Cinder safely. We have another top mon with Encore via Waterpon. Before we only had a couple strong Encore users and Tinkaton/Maushold, but now imo the 2nd best mon in the tier gets it, meaning Gambit is more likely to be punished for clicking any of those moves. That being said, Gambit always finds a way to be broken. Even in Home with fucking Zamazenta, it managed to get over 50% votes from the suspect test. If the minimal amount of votes needed to ban something was half, it’d be gone. TL;DR, keep an eye on Gambit.

Eeveeto said:
Before calling Azumarill Trash, remember it now has Knock Off. What does that mean? Banded Tera Dark Huge Power Knock Off in Trick Room, of course. Yes, Crawdaunt exists, but this guy is much bulkier and with a better defensive typing
(the moment an otherwise decent Water Fairy Mon gets Recover, it goes to S/A+rank, that typing is that good) than Crawdaunt. I was an Azumarill hater at the beginning of this gen, but now I wouldn't discard the water bunny full of joy yet.
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Personally I’ve used to be a big Azu fan in Home. Its defensive typing was very appealing for checking Bax and Wake, as well as physical Valiant. Plus it gets access to Encore, but here is the problem.

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Despite the solid 100/80/80 bulk it somehow gets 2HKOd by the Water/Dragon Wake.

The existence of Waterpon makes the Belly Drum set trash cause of Water Absorb and that spicy Grass STAB. Also outclassing it offensively due to its higher speed and generally having more splashability.

Band Azu is also not much stronger than Tera Ivy.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248-292 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its not even a good Moon switch in which it would’ve been great to have.

252 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It does check physical Valiant which is a niche it has over Waterpon but deadass physical Valiant is one of the easiest mons to cover in the builder, this isn’t Home meta.

Banded Azu and Lefties Protect are the best sets for it imo, but it struggles to break Mola Balance/BO builds. Band Play Rough doesn’t even 3HKO Boots Mola at full.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 223-264 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
carbonlifeform said:
It's me! The guy who will keep workshopping Iron Hands sets until the sun consumes the earth! Following along with the latest trends, I come to you with:

Tera Ice Iron Hands:
Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 192 Atk / 156 SpD / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake / Thunder Punch

I messed around with Tera Ice Hands very early in SV, but Ice is such a terrible defensive type in a vacuum that only having Chilly Reception for snow support really hurt it. Now, though, I've been running this with Slowking for early match pivoting and Atales for late match Veil support to clean up, and it's putting in work -- and while Ice is a bad defensive type by itself, it has zero overlapping weaknesses with Iron Hands' base typing, so you can get that "free turn" effect to KO a check and potentially roll through the rest of the opposing team.

How does Tera Ice stack up against the `mon that perpetually limits Iron Hands' viability?
+2 192+ Atk Tera Ice Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands: 153-181 (34 - 40.3%) -- 40.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands in Snow: 102-121 (22.7 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands in Snow: 204-242 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pretty well, and that's without Veil support.

Those calcs should explain the 192 Atk. The 160 Spe is probably a bit team-specific, as it outruns (non-Booster Speed) Iron Moth after paralysis. 144/148/152 all also work depending on how much work you want to put in trying to creep Gambit with the rest going into SpD. EQ vs Thunder Punch is also a tossup based on what your team needs. Fighting + Ice + Ground hits 12 types SE, which is nuts, but Thunder Punch helps out with all of the (Tera) Water threats out there. Obviously, that includes Gliscor, who does not want to play footsies with Iron Hands:
192+ Atk Tera Ice Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 336-400 (94.9 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Note that Thunder Punch also opens up the option of running Punching Glove over Leftovers, at which point you can go 96 +Atk/252SpD and still exceed the damage thresholds above while avoiding Static/Flame Body procs, but I haven't tested it, and that feels like bait compared to the consistent recovery of leftovers.

In general, the set works well to either punch holes early or to clean up late. Late match, under Veil, there's just not a lot that anything can do to Iron Hands, leaving you free to just batter your way through whatever is left of the opposing team, Drain Punching weakened `mons into oblivion to keep yourself fresh enough to finish the job:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Iron Hands in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 277-327 (61.6 - 72.8%)
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 154-182 (34.2 - 40.5%)

<3 this chonky boi
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could one potentially swap out swords dance for bulk up for even more physical resilience? it comes at the cost of a fast +2, but iron hands becomes basically untouchable on the physical side if you set up some bulk ups under veil and snow, which can be important if you want to minimize the chance of getting rng'd by gambit iron head in the endgame—that extra +1 defense turns the 2hko into a 3hko, so gambit would need to flinch you twice to not lose. also, for the 96/252/160 punching glove set, invest 16 of the spd evs into hp to get a bit more special and physical bulk out of it, or you could go for 28 hp/96 atk/240 spd/144 spe for a little more bulk while still outspeeding neutral corv and 20 spe scizor
 
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Honestly with Hearthpon leaving, I feel like the meta is in a more or less "stable" position.

Offense is strong but it feels easier to handle threats like Blood Moon and Manaphy with Hearthpon gone from enabling them. Veil feels easier to handle in the builder. The meta feels... fine. Not perfect, but fine. I think whatever is tested next, either Manaphy, Blood Moon, or a Volc retest, would end up being pretty close at the end of the day. I think there's issues with the meta, don't get me wrong. Tera is the obvious elephant in the room. Kingambit is still the best wincon in the game. Hazard removal is still a headache and it has only gotten worse with Gliscor in the tier. But this meta is...fine. I can see myself soldiering through it for another two months while we wait for DLC Wave 2.

I honestly feel ambivalent towards any test rn. Sure, Manaphy under Veil or Rain or BM under Veil can be annoying and crush fat teams. Sure, maybe we can swing a Volc test if we really wanted to. I just... don't care. It's not out of any fault to the OU Council or anything; I just feel like wasting a ton of energy on multiple suspects for a meta that will be dead in two months is going to be a headache. We have time for *maybe* two suspects being generous. Id prefer to just have a clean slate and look at things going forward from the Indigo Disk onward than spend time "fixing" a meta we probably dont have the time to "fix".
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
could one potentially swap out swords dance for bulk up for even more physical resilience?
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Iron Hands doesn't get Bulk Up or I would have been running it for ages. I've spent the whole generation wondering how much better Iron Hands would be if it got BU, Bullet Punch, and/or a consistently useful ability. Then Gamefreak went and made freaking Bloodmoon and now I want to throw something through a wall.
 
carbonlifeform said:
Iron Hands doesn't get Bulk Up or I would have been running it for ages. I've spent the whole generation wondering how much better Iron Hands would be if it got BU, Bullet Punch, and/or a consistently useful ability. Then Gamefreak went and made freaking Bloodmoon and now I want to throw something through a wall.
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wait what the actual shit, i swear it got bulk up. what is this nonsense. forget iron hands, someone at game freak is catching my hands for this
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
wait what the actual shit, i swear it got bulk up. what is this nonsense. forget iron hands, someone at game freak is catching my hands for this
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Yeah I think a lot of us subconsciously assumed it got that because Hariyama has it. Maybe you should start playing VGC where people hate iron hands for the exact opposite reasons (it is a menace to society)
 
Its actually funny how despite being upgrades, most Paradox Mons miss some key move that base Mon has:

Iron Hands not only doesn,t get Bulk Up, but also Knock Off, which Hariyama does have.
Walking Wake doesn,t get Calm Mind, would be Uber if it did.
Despite not being STAB, Sandy Shocks would apreciate having Steel Beam for a suicide lead set.
Volcarona has Quiver Dance. Slither Wing doesn,t need it, but Iron Moth would certainly apreciate having it.
Brute Bonnet doesn,t actually miss any move from Amoonguss, but with Regenerator it would be way better.
Flutter Mane is already Uber, but would be even more broken with Nasty Plot instead of Calm Mind.
Scream Tail doesn,t have Knock Off, Wiggly does. Did you know Scream Tail has Roar, however?
Same thing happens with Iron Thorns, no Knock Off for him.
Roaring Moon doesn,t miss any Moves from Mence, but would like more Special Attack for mixed sets.
Iron Bundle is already Uber. Despite that, it doesn,t outclass Delibird, who has Spikes, Rapid Spin and Destiny Bond. Iron Bundle would be the best suicide lead in Ubers with such tools.
Gallade doesn,t need Mystical Fire, but Iron Valiant would like it. Same for Will-o-Wisp (this one Gallade can use).
Iron Jugulis has Knock Off, but that high Speed would enable him to use Nasty Plot well, but it doesn,t get it.
Iron Leaves has better physical bulk than Virizion, it could use 3 Attacks + Synthesis, but it doesn,t get the healing move.
Finally, a lot of Mons got Encore this Gen. Base(d) Donphan had the move all the way back from Gen 2, but neither Great Tusk nor Iron Treads, both of which have way higher Speed, get the move. Tusk would also apreciate having Ice Shard in order to be an upgraded Mamoswine with Tera Ice.

Most of this I believe was done 100% on purpose. They really want base Mons to still have a reason to be used, even if its a tiny one (no, Delibird, you are still almost fully outclassed by Froslass).
 
Gen 7 is not a bad meta although it could have used a few more bans in Kartana (crazy broken with Z-Giga Impact), Mega Mawile, and Tapu Lele. ABR's conservative tiering approach prevented Gen 7 from reaching its full potential, but it was far from being unplayable or anything like that.
 
yomaalt said:
I ain't gon lie not putting gambit in S tier when all that changed with DLC is tusk, hrott, gren, etc.... usage dropping is kinda crazy. Only thing that changed was the funky little fellow being in the spotlight until the cold reality of 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch hit her (With rocks up this was an OHKO) With gliscor spikes being bloody everywhere, and prolly hrott spikes gonna start rising soon since people are flocking to hatterene again as hazard control, gambit is quite literally, still the king.


SPEAKING OF, I know this is a hot take but I feel as if tusk is barely hanging onto S- due to the fact he's the "easiest" hazard clearer (I say "easiest" as this mf feels threatened by just about every great setter now. Ting? ruin + whirlwind it, it'll die to spikes soon. Hrott? Razor/Aqua cutter it, or ifyou hate it, hydro pump him. Gliscor? Tox on the switch, prot, then literally just spam spikes, 4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 244-288 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal, play your cards right and tusk ain't winning lmfao)

I unno tho or is this sentiment of metagame hositility towards tusk just me being a noob?
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252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 292-344 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 220-260 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Offensive Tusk stays winning, favorable roll to OHKO the standard bulky sets with rocks, and guaranteed 2HKO on a 252/252+ physical wall. Defensive Tusk has poor matchups in general right now, so the offensive set is preferred.

YubelVT said:
Anyone who says gg after losing to kingambit is lying. There's just no fucking reason to keep this shitstain in the tier. Excise the problems with the meta, starting with gambit
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Checks list of suspect test voters
Doesn't see YubelVT

There's two ways to get taken seriously: be a good player (which neither of us are) or make a well supported argument (which I try to do). Given that Kingambit already survived a suspect test, Finch has already said a quickban isn't going to happen, so lay out a strong case for what has changed in OU that means it deserves another suspect test.
 
Alternator said:
There's two ways to get taken seriously: be a good player (which neither of us are) or make a well supported argument (which I try to do). Given that Kingambit already survived a suspect test, Finch has already said a quickban isn't going to happen, so lay out a strong case for what has changed in OU that means it deserves another suspect test.
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IMO gambit seems more manageable post DLC, maybe it's because it isn't so common, but idk. Gliscor is great into gambit and clef can also annoy some gambit sets lacking iron head. Some of the new mons kind of hurt gambit's viability because luna bm has good bulk and it can ohko gambit with ep, okidogi (not really common but this has a small niche) which is a fighting type and fighting types in general hurt gambit, and gliscor being a pseudo tusk also doesn't help. I honestly think that gambit will rise again after the meta settles down, but until then, it's probably gonna be overlooked due to new toy syndrome.
 
Today is the day.
A most grievous and terrible fate has befallen the Pokemon Showdown Damage Calculator!
A vile demon coming from the infinite dark depths of the CAP LC!
An eldritch menace, here to ravage the precious sacred site of the calculations!
And it's name is... ABABO!
View attachment ababo.png
THE BRINGER OF DOOM!
Soon, our default calculations will change, from the beloved and cherished Abomasnow:
252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Abomasnow: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
To the abhorrent and despicable, respulsive and despised, most evile of beasts, ABABO:
156 SpA Ababo Moonblast vs. 180 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Ababo: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
One can only imagine the chaos and fear this will bring upon the general smogon Public!
RIOTS IN THE STREETS! PANIC! SOCIETAL COLLAPSE! THIS IS THE END, SMOGONITES!!!!
And only for those whose hearts stand firm in our lord Lokix will have any joy
Only for the demon to destroy Thine savior in the deadliest of Moonblasts!
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tera Bug Lokix First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tera Fairy Ababo: 234-276 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Ababo Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lokix: 316-372 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And thus the final post on the smogon goes out with the laste of the Lokix.
And Darkness and Decay and ABABO held illumitable dominion over all.
oh yeah this is the ou forum uhh uhh gliscor is pretty good in OU it really does gliscor things well please don't delete this
 
Quick rant, I think Strength Sap is the best designed move ever. If you have never heard of it (unlikly), it heals the user by an amount equal to the opponent’s attack stat, then subsequently lowers the opponent’s attack stat by one. This is fantastic. Why?
  1. The healing is very good, but not spammable as the target’s Attack stat lowers.
  2. It has low, but not horrible, distribution.
  3. It can be countered by simply switching to a special attacker.
  4. The lowering attack stat can quickly force a swap out.
I could wax poetic about this move. It can be extremely useful, but in niche situations. But not too niche, and is not spammable recovery. This is the perfect move. Change my mind.
 
FuecocoBoi said:
Quick rant, I think Strength Sap is the best designed move ever. If you have never heard of it (unlikly), it heals the user by an amount equal to the opponent’s attack stat, then subsequently lowers the opponent’s attack stat by one. This is fantastic. Why?
  1. The healing is very good, but not spammable as the target’s Attack stat lowers.
  2. It has low, but not horrible, distribution.
  3. It can be countered by simply switching to a special attacker.
  4. The lowering attack stat can quickly force a swap out.
I could wax poetic about this move. It can be extremely useful, but in niche situations. But not too niche, and is not spammable recovery. This is the perfect move. Change my mind.
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The main thing about Strength Sap is that it also allows poor mons with some niches to have their ability to be improved and get a better form of recovery that can be somewhat used reliably. SS also allows frail mons to try and live a hit it would normally die to.
Example:
Polteageist @ White Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 50 Def / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Strength Sap
- Stored Power
- Shadow Ball
vs
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
Assuming Kingambit is coming in on a revenge kill, looking for a easy sucker punch kill and Polt already has a boost on, a Strength Sap would drain Gambit of the damage needed to kill with SP, allowing for another drain of attack with SS, putting Gambit in a place where it can't faint Polt with even Kowtow Cleave all of the time. If it wanted to, it could just keep spamming it and get Gambit in a rather bad place where Polt kept farming HP and lowering its attack stat
(-2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 188-224 (72 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
-3 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

oh, also sinistcha also can use SS to its benefit as good bulk and lowering attack = money face emoji
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 198-234 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 284-336 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 306-360 (88.4 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 324-384 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 218-258 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
tl;dr: the mons who get SS have some niche use (IE: driftblim unburden, arboilva stall and brambleghast... brambleghast) but SS allows to put their niche further and allows them to become the GOAT!!
 
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SnakeNet said:
Something you also have to account for is that it isn't spammable. Since Strength Sap lowers the attack stat of the foe, and the healing is based on the attack stat, you can't just spam it for a free full heal. This allows frail mons to try and live a hit it would normally die to.
Example:
Polteageist @ White Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 50 Def / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Strength Sap
- Stored Power
- Shadow Ball
vs
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
Assuming Kingambit is coming in on a revenge kill, looking for a easy sucker punch kill and Polt already has a boost on, a Strength Sap would drain Gambit of the damage needed to kill with SP, allowing for another drain of attack with SS, putting Gambit in a place where it can't faint Polt with even Kowtow Cleave all of the among us time. If it wanted to, it could just keep spamming it and get Gambit in a rather bad place where Polt kept farming HP and lowering its attack stat
(-2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 188-224 (72 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
-3 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

oh, also sinistcha also can use SS to its benefit as good bulk and lowering attack = money face emoji
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 198-234 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 284-336 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 306-360 (88.4 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 324-384 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 218-258 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
tl;dr: the mons who get SS have some niche use (IE: driftblim unburden, arboilva stall and brambleghast... brambleghast) but SS allows to put their niche further and allows them to become the GOAT!!
Click to expand...

Spoiler is fax
its almost like I mentioned twice in the OP that it isn’t spammable…
 
SnakeNet said:
Something you also have to account for is that it isn't spammable. Since Strength Sap lowers the attack stat of the foe, and the healing is based on the attack stat, you can't just spam it for a free full heal. This allows frail mons to try and live a hit it would normally die to.
Example:
Polteageist @ White Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 50 Def / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Strength Sap
- Stored Power
- Shadow Ball
vs
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
Assuming Kingambit is coming in on a revenge kill, looking for a easy sucker punch kill and Polt already has a boost on, a Strength Sap would drain Gambit of the damage needed to kill with SP, allowing for another drain of attack with SS, putting Gambit in a place where it can't faint Polt with even Kowtow Cleave all of the time. If it wanted to, it could just keep spamming it and get Gambit in a rather bad place where Polt kept farming HP and lowering its attack stat
(-2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 188-224 (72 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
-3 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 50 Def Polteageist: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

oh, also sinistcha also can use SS to its benefit as good bulk and lowering attack = money face emoji
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 198-234 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 284-336 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 306-360 (88.4 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 324-384 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 218-258 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
tl;dr: the mons who get SS have some niche use (IE: driftblim unburden, arboilva stall and brambleghast... brambleghast) but SS allows to put their niche further and allows them to become the GOAT!!
Click to expand...
since you mentioned brambleghast, i'd like to ask if anyone else is having success with the mon now that it has access to poltergeist. what moves are y'all running on it besides dual stab? i'm running power whip + poltergeist + rapid spin + strength sap, but i'm wondering if i should put in leech seed or spikes somewhere. i've also been toying with the idea of a curse/spikes suicide lead set, since it's the only ghost-type with access to them both, but i wouldn't know what sort of a team to build around that (plus there are a million better spikes users that don't even have to die to make progress, and some that can't die even if you want them to, but let's ignore that for now)
 
Epic SSap sets

Brambleghast @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Strength Sap
- Trailblaze
- Rapid Spin
uhh bramble doing bramble things lol
Drifblim @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Defog
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Ball
Hot air balloon go brr, ss allows some staying power
Sinistcha @ Big Root
Ability: Heatproof
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Strength Sap
- Hex
- Scald
All I do is heal heal heal no matter what got healing on my mind
Polteageist @ White Herb
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Strength Sap
- Stored Power
- Shadow Ball
Polt doing polt things, now with healing
Arboliva @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Earth Power
- Strength Sap
- Hyper Voice
Amazing tr mon, no physical moves allowed
Jumpluff
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Energy Ball
subseed is the only thing she can do, more staying power tho
 
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