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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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misses the joke
uses a cheeky one-liner to insult the intelligence of the entire ban gholdengo crowd
leaves
ah yes, Darkrai with it's multiple dark stabs and 80-90 bp 100acc moves
I would argue that it's absolutely limited by it's awful stab, lack of high power moves, and reliance on low accuracy moves to patch up it's biggest threats. Meanwhile Pult can safely run choice specs, is faster, and has stab draco meteor. Both have useless abilities though.
383 is not more than 546 wdym, unless you're talking about choice scarf.
This is actually valid, however it's 4MSS is insane. It'll still get good value out of it's coverage regardless
I misspoke about the STABs, and I apologize for that. However, I was referring to its higher base SpA, meaning that Darkrai doesn't NEED choice specs to be an effective attacker like Pult does, and is also way less prediction-reliant which is kinda the trade-off for relying on focus blast.
Yes... that's what I said. I said that it does NOT outspeed the booster crowd and Zama/pult.
I don't see either of them in ou.
are they popular in the higher tiers?
Boots Pult was perfectly effective on xavgb balance and darkrai is not sweeping anything without specs or nasty plot, specs being obviously limiting and nasty plot using up one of darkrai's valuable moveslots. Can't envision it being better than Zamazenta
i feel like the environment roaring moon found itself in pushed it over the edge far more than knock off ever could. even w/ only crunch it still shredded everything pre-DLC barring maybe kingambit if its not running EQ or brick break. i have no doubt in my mind that even without knock off roaring moon would have still done the same thing it always did and still would have gotten banned
with that being said, i second what you said about sneasler and i dont get why some people think its dire claw thats the problem. so long as we have a reliable terrain setter, sneasler will be broken. even if it cant cheese past teams w/ dire claw it still has no trouble finding setup opportunities w/ the defensive benefits of its seed + tera and attempts at walling sneasler after it grabs a boost is still a very tall task
also late reply but my only input on this is that i would rather keep gholdengo and kingambit + drop espathra and zamazenta-C into OU than take any chances with anything you proposed a retest for. ideally none of these ever get unbanned but if it came down to it then id take all of the above over whatever the hell bloodmoon ursaluna is supposed to be. or chien-pao. or urshifu-rapid
if youre not running choice specs on darkrai then why not run nasty plot? moreover, what are you running over nasty plot on non-choiced sets?
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Nasty Plot + 3 attacks is probably its best set, just needs to actually survive setting up then avoid being revenged by boooster mons (some of whom are categorically better Pokémon than darkrai btw) all being faster as well as all the priority in the tier. Probably worse than IronPress Zamazenta. And why use a nasty plotter with a worse type and worse movepool than Gholdengo?
i see 4 attacks being just as good though, as although the power is significantly less, having a 4th attacking move is very nice due to the limited coverage any combination of 3 attacks has. Either way probably worse than boots + 4 attacks Zamazenta
hypnosis is a meme and should not be acknowledged and is comparatively worse than exotic's hypnosis valiant set
Beyond the fact that YOU are insulting MY intelligence by implying im too stupid to understand the "joke" in the comment I quoted, it's pretty clear from my use of the term "shit fit" that my comment is pointed towards "ban Gholdengo because spikes make me cry" YouTube comments and not well researched and informed anti-Gholdengo perspectives such as quacc's
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grargh reading comprehension error
at least i'm on the level of most lobby users
one must imagine more coverage, but good luck setting up when
252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and
252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 180-214 (64 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai in Grassy Terrain: 205-243 (72.9 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Yes, and not only this, but also remember, Darkrai has NO ability
I FUCKING LOOOVE DARKRAI LETS UNBAN IT AND EVERY UBER WE EVER BANNED WHOOOOOO UNBAN PALAFIN IT LOSES TO TBOLT AND AMOONGUS WHOOOOOOO UNBAN CHIEN PAO IT LOSES TO VAL VACCUM WAVE WHOOOOO UNBAN GLISCOR UNBAN EVERYTHING FUCK YEAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
i will say that it's legitimately impressive that it's hard to tell if this is an actual take or satire
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Honestly pretty impressive that Darkrai survived any of that.
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 354-416 (103.8 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not like these Pokemon can safely stay in on Darkrai either. Cinderace is the only one mentioned that doesn't get OHKO, but with even a little chip Darkrai outspeeds and KOs
yeah they can linger in UUbers
Skymin is banned from UUbers (An Introduction to SV Ubers UU - Smogon University): " Shaymin-S was banned for being uncompetitive and restricting to teambuilding thanks to Air Slash and Serene Grace enabling it to beat its checks with some luck "
And there were some people that wanted this thing in OU lol
Every few years it must be re-established that 100% of smogon players can agree on one thing. That thing has always been Skymin bans from OU. And now Big Competitive™ wants to take that away from us and divide us further
The sarcasm doesn’t help your argument and only makes you look like a midwit with anger issues. If you really can’t tell the difference between Darkrai and Palafin or Chien-pao in terms of powerlevel, I wouldn’t be trying to mock people. Not only that but all 3 of those Pokemon have been tested, while Darkrai hasn’t. And you know, this is the same gen where Garchomp dropped out of OU (even with Scale Shot buff), Heatran was briefly UU, and where Tyranitar is RU with fucking Knock Off. Everyone thought Zamazenta would be busted too. Who can actually say for sure Darkrai is gonna be too much for OU any more?
Just for shits and/or giggles, I figured I would make a comprehensive tier list for each potential drop/retest in the event of a soft reset. If anyone wants to steal my framework, feel free to do so. I even made a tiermaker if you would like to make one yourself. https://tiermaker.com/create/sv-ou-unbans-indigo-disk-16217583
I will have five tiers for drops, as followed.
5: Safe Drop in the grand scheme of things, likely won't be hit in the initial banwave. If it is hit, it would be months down the line.
4: Likely would be very strong, but I would expect it suspected down the line rather than immediately quickbanned if it is a problem.
3: Borderline case. I would lean no in most of these cases, but I could *maybe* convince myself its worth a drop.
2: I would be scared to have this back and would expect a quick ban, but it is not as egregious as anything before it.
1: No, not a goddamn chance in hell this is ok to bring back.
5
IMO, if this thing comes back it is far and away the safest thing to drop. I'm gonna be frank, I doubt this even stays in OU if it drops. Hazard stacking has evolved far beyond Gen 6, when this was last in OU. Dual Screens have evolved a ton too. Why run a dual screen Deo D when options like Ninetales Alola, Grimmsnarl, or Dragapult exist? Why run a hazard lead set when we have so many amazing spikers like Hisuian Samurott, Ting Lu, or if it comes back Gliscor? I have seen some people fear the idea of this thing running a Gliscor like set and just sticking around for the entire game, but I highly doubt that. Gliscor had a strong defensive type coupled with a functional status immunity. Deo D has one of the worst defensive types in the game and isnt status immune. Heck, it isnt even that bulky at the end of the day, its low health pool make it weaker than it would seem at forst glance. Also unlike Gliscor, it can't really be a threat in the back to stallbreak.
Honestly, this thing will probably end up being a worse Mew and end up dropping to RUBL. I almost debated having a separate tier because any other drop compared to this thing would be way scarier to drop.
Speaking of hazards, we have the last suspect. Gliscor was a centralizing, annoying presence (particularly with a certain golden boi in the tier)... but I feel like dropping it here would be more or less fine. With our recent experiences, we could potentially answer what the issues with hazards truly are. Gliscor on its own with spikes is super strong, obviously. If we tested Gholdengo instead and banned it, we would likely still be having discussions about Gliscor. But compared to most of our other drops, I think Gliscor would be a productive one to pursue.
I want to stress that being a 5 does not automatically make you a perfect fit for OU. But I do think that Roaring Moon has a good shot of staying in the tier. For me, its suspect test was a moment of too many threats being in the tier at once. Something had to give, and Moon was the one that drew the most ire. I won't lie, it would be strong if it came back. DD was silly, especially with Tera thrown into the mix. Banded also was not half bad and was seeing play. I do think Roaring Moon would be good, but I do think with Tera being one of the first questions we will be confronting in this new meta, Roaring Moon is a prime candidate for a drop.
I am not going to bore you all with a long discussion about Volc. I will just say that I support Tera Blast action and Volc imo added more to the tier than it took away. Similar to another mon, I think a lot of the discussion on Volc has already been treaded upon, so I won't waste too much time on it, but I do think it is a prime candidate for a drop.
4
At this point, I just want to unban it to spite bigasschungusboi and their takes on the mon
In all seriousness, I do think Darkrai is worth a look in OU. Darkrai discussion is kind of done to death at this point, so I am just going to keep this to one paragraph for now. Yes, it is fast and a strong set up sweeper. It also has bad defensive synergy, a mediocre stab move, Life Orb isnt as strong nowadays, and you have bad 4MSS. Specs is prediction reliant. I honestly think Sub sets are under explored in discussion, but those run into the core issues the mon has as well. We also have the tour games (Small sample size obviously) that help suggest this might be fine in OU. It also has gotten some direct nerfs since the last time it was OU.
I do not know if it would stay OU (i lean it would), but I still think its worthwhile to test it given ho wmuch has changed since last time it was legal.
: Mans got banned for Chien Pao's sins.
Being a bit more serious, I do think Zamazenta Crowned was a symptom of the meta where it got banned, not the cause of the problems. Zamazenta Crowned feasted on a meta dominated by Hyper Offense, which mons like Chien Pao, Magearna, and Urshifu Rapid Strike mandated. In an OU meta without those running around, honestly I can see it being fine. It is certainly a better IDBP sweeper than its Hero counterpart. Getting a steel type and a boosted defensive profile tends to do that. But I do not think it would be nearly as scary now with how the meta has evolved.
This one honestly varies on what comes back. If we get Tapus, this thing drops like a rock. I would be very scared of Sneasler in a metagame with Tapu Lele chunking its few checks and setting up terrain for it. If we don't get Tapus back... I honestly thing it would be fine. Assuming Gliscor returns, its a lot easier to check this thing at the end of the day. Sneasler is still going to be a silly, cheesy mon, but I doubt that it would be the quickban target it was if we had the drops we could be getting.
Hot take, I think this is actually a good candidate for a drop. The metagame Ape was in was basically warped by Chi Yu and Cyclizar, letting it go wild. Nowadays, I am not as sold that it would be the immediately broken threat that it was last time.
Ape's claim to fame was its bulk up set, but I feel like that set is going to be worse in the current metagame. Hazards have progressed to a point that it would likely be hard for Ape to abuse its bulk as strongly as it did last time. It is always going to be awful for stall, but I feel in a faster metagame it would probably
Kyurem is going to be silly for most of the reasons it got banned last gen. It can actually use its 130 Attack stat now with a DD set. Freeze Dry still lets it muscle through things. It's gonna be good.
And yet, I think it is still a good candidate for a drop. It still has the issues of basically starving itself for boots. Roost also is gone with Dexit, which makes Kyurem have a lot harder of a time dealing with chip or leveraging its bulk. Will it still be scary to deal with defensively? Sure, but with the way stall is built nowadays I doubt it moves the needle much on anything without Roost.
3
: I want to stress before I go in depth on these mons, that anything in this tier or below I would not unban. If the public sentiment around Blood Moon wasnt as decisive, I would consider it for the tier above.
Alas, this was a pretty decisive suspect. Despite not being obviously broken at face value, Ursaluna still was just so fat and could at worst trade easily with fast teams or just win outright. Even without Tera, this mon was a menace. It would probably be able to do the same nonsense if it was unbanned as it did in September. I also doubt the meta is going to move in a way that makes dealing with Blood Moon suddenly feasible.
I am torn on Genesect. On one hand, the mon is taking a heavy hit. Losing its set up sets and losing Extremespeed are huge hits. It does cut down on the versaitily that Genesect had in the past. It also does not help that 99 speed isnt the god tier speed stat with a scarf it used to be. It would be a lot harder for Genesect to be the pivot/revenge killer/sweeper/wallbreaker it wants to be when speed tiers have risen higher and higher. What also made me skeptical of it dropping is the rise of Spikes. Genesect hates losing 25% of its health coming in or having to give up its item to run boots.
Then I remembered Tera Blast Exists. That is a bit yikes with download and made me a lot more cautious about unbanning it. If we banned Tera Blast, I genuinely think that it is a worthwhile discussion to drop this thing. Unlike in previous generations, Genesect actually is sustaining a few hard nerfs. I feel like this is the best metagame in a while where Genesect has a chance to stay OU... if Tera Blast was off the table. With Tera Blast in the tier as is, I would be more cautious about dropping Genesect into the tier.
This is Darkshifu, which imo actually would be the less busted form this gen.
Darkshifu obviously is spooky. It was nuts last gen and it got SD and Punching Glove (which it doesn’t abuse nearly as hard as its Water type counterpart). It still is going to punch things hard and break holes into the enemy team. So why am I even entertaining this one while I have strong feelings about the other one?
Well, I think Darkshifu actually offers things to the tier. While it is a scary wallbreaker, it isn't overwhelmingly so. Ironically, I think it would be *easier* to handle defensively nowadays due to Tera Fairy shenanigans. It isnt impossible for me to see this thing settling into OU as an A+ mon people complain about but ends up fine. Better players than me have given arguments to test this, and if it wasn't for their arguments this would be lower. But I dunno, its kinda appealing. An offensive gambit check that might actually be worse this gen despite getting SD? It almost makes enough sense to unban. But like I said, its still a brutal wallbreaker that I do not want to let into the tier, though I could be convinced otherwise.
Unlike its bad form, Deo S would be pretty spooky. 180 speed with nasty plot and Tera blast is one hell of a drug. This thing would likely be on the radar for the same it was in Gen 6: it’s offensive sets. The lead sets imo, while holding up better than Deo D due to having a fast taunt, would still not be its scariest stuff. I don’t think those would even put it on the radar. I’m more scared of this thing as a revenge killer. 4 attack life orb or just nasty plot sound scary.
And yet, I feel like offensive teams would be able to handle this thing better than in past gens. 95 offensives aren’t that scary at the end of the day, even backed by life orb. It’s got good coverage, but I feel that it wouldn’t cripple offensive teams the same way it did in Gen 6. I would have given this a 4 if Tera Blast was banned, since that is what scared me the most tbh. Its no Regieleki with a good pivot move to compliment its strengths, but it still would be a hurdle to handle defensively.
Objectively, this could have been a 2, but I feel like Hearthflame isn't *as bad* as some of the mons below? Yes, its scary both with and without Tera. Yes, it was hard to deal with defensively, but at least it got worn down pretty well by rocks? Yeah, this thing is probably still going to be unhealthy, but I feel at least compared to most of the mons below it has a fairer shot, at least with how new it is.
Still do not unban this probably, Zacian C at home is a nightmare and I do not want to get bonked again.
2
Ironically, the Bulk Up set wasn't what go this into 2. If the Bulk Up Set was my only concern, it would have probably gotten into 3. But unfortunately for it, the Banded set would still be super rough to switch into. Tera Water Wave Crash is one hell of a drug off of an attack stat that would make Slaking blush.
I could probalby be convinced to put this in 3, but I would still be very hesitant to let this thing end up in OU again.
Hey look, its better Palafin.
You know how I said banded Tera Water Wave Crash was one hell of a drug? Now imagine having SD Punching Glove Surging Strikes and a strong duel stab. This thing was super busted in HOME, easily more problematic than Zama C. Dealing with it defensively, especially under rain was a herculean task. Playing anything other than HO into this thing was back breaking. It genuinely is astonishing how much of a buff SD and punching glove were, giving it nucelar levels of damage.
The highest survey response for a ban, Bax loses basically nothing that made him a monster. Veil + Scale Shot turned an already problematic mon into one of the dumbest mons OU ever saw. Unless for some reason Veil goes, I doubt that Bax will be a safe drop at all for the rest of the gen. Killing it under veil was so hard due to Snow making it even fatter, while it crushed most defensive counterplay.
I’ve seen some people bring him, Giratina forms, and Arceus Bug up, so I slotted them on the list. Personally, I wouldn’t drop any of them.
Solgaelo isn’t broken due to its offensive profile. Tbh, I wouldn’t even put Calm Mind or band on my radar for why it would be too much for the tier. The issue imo is this thing as a support mon. It’s so fat with a good defensive typing and has teleport. A set of teleport, knock off, morning sun, and maybe some filler move feels like an insanely strong glue mon that would be centralizing. I guess if you wanna get funky and test it it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but this imo is not worth leaving in OU.
/
: I have similar thoughts on both forms, but I will tackle Origin first since it is imo the more appealing to drop. It has an item restriction (granted it gets a 1.2x boost to its STABs with it), has no reliable recovery outside of rest, and offers us potentially the best hazard removal the tier would ever see. That sounds super appealing... too appealing. My issue with Giratina O isnt some worry about its offensive sets, imo those would be more or less par for the course in modern OU. My issue is how splashable it is. What team wouldn't want to throw this thing on it? It would be the equivalent of a GSC Snorlax tier glue dropping into OU. Would that be fun? Sure. Would that arguably make some of the problems of the tier go away? Sure, but this is not the method to do so.
Giratina Altered is honestly probably a bit dumber due to being able to hold a held item. Its super fat and Pult has shown us that specs draco even from a 100 Spa isnt anything to scoff at, and this would be able to go modest. It is just too fat to really be healthy for the tier. Yes, defogging would be great, but this isn't the way to do it.
The biggest reason this got a 2 instead of a 1 is that Proto synthesis was not properly coded when it was out. I still think this would almost certainly be too much for OU. It’s just too fast and strong with two of, if not the two best offensive types in the game. Good luck handling booster calm mind sets or specs sets, this thing is a menace. If I didn’t have some morbid curiosity of how much the proto coding mattered in terms of its ban, this would have gotten the 1 it deserves.
Bundle did have the Proto changes, and it still is stupid. Turns out, being only outsped by Pult and having no safe switchins that arent Blissey is kinda gross. Specs Bundle was so hard to deal with due to Freeze Dry, and Hydro Pump could clean up a team with even minor chip. So many games early on were decided by Bundle speed ties it was gross.
Spectrier was a super toxic mon last gen, and it got buffed with Draining Kiss. Literally it gets its biggest flaw, its lack of coverage, fixed this gen, while still being strong as hell and fast as hell in the blink of an eye.
Banded G Darm is just gross. The only reason this did not get a 1 is due to how it is weak to hazards, but this thing would abuse them so hard. Switching into G Darm is a nightmare, even without factoring in Tera. I would prefer not having to rely on G Darm guessing games every game, hoping I read my opponent's G Darm choice only to still die to a banded Tera Ice Icicle Crash.
I would think it would be fun if it got banned three times, but yeah, Pao is nuts. Its almost impossible to handle defenisvely and outspeeds almost everything. I struggle to see it not causing the same issues it did in HOME, pushing HO as the only playstyle due to how punishing it is to every other one. Its a shame too, I do like Mega Weavile.
If we ban Tera Blast, I would consider bumping this into the 3-4 range. Espathra needed Tera Blast and Terastraliziation to be the threat it was. It was such a dumb MU fish of a mon, I would prefer if it rotted in Ubers for the rest of time. Espathra was legit one of the most frustrating mons in all of Gen IX OU for me due to how little player agency you had vs it. If you just cued up with the wrong playstyle or even just a team that wasn't prepping for it hard, you got punished hard. It felt like losing to baton pass: the game wasn't lost due to one player playing well, just due to mu fishing and cheese.
The only unanimous suspect test ban in OU History IIRC, Shaymin Sky does help prove that 60%=100%. Air Slash flinches are cringe, Seed Flare making switching into this thing brutally hard is even worse. It outspeeds almost the entire unboosted tier and brings in some super unfun RNG that can let it brute force its way past its own checks.
Once was enough this gen. I hate this mon with a passion. Legit, the post Eleki pre Mag ban would be my bottom pick for SV metagames, thank arceus it only lasted a few days. Mag is ridiculously versatile, hard to answer defensively, and stupidly easy to sweep with.
Nothing has changed from Gen VIII, where it got quickbanned. It still can outlast its counters well and with Thousand Arrows, that pool is very small. Coil, Banded, DD, and even Glare sets make it so hard to get a uniform defensive check outside of the bulkiest of grass types. I feel like everyone knows why this thing is toxic as hell, so I won't go too in depth.
1
Any form. Just assume its bug so we can say that it is a bad idea to test this thing. Its just too fat and too versatile. Simple as that. Even in the hypothetical scenario where Tera is banned from OU and this thing can't just become another Arceus type at will, we are still dealing with a mon with insane defenses, good offensive stats, and an excellent movepool. I think this would be a horrible candidate for a drop.
Dialga has a bad new form now!... that still has insane bulk and a special attack the size of Skyrim. I fail to see how this would be a good drop outside of morbid curiosity.
/ 
Broken moves are still broken. Shed Tail honestly seems like it would only get more oppressive as time goes on. The faster and stronger the meta is, the scarier one free set up turn is. As for Last Respects, its just a move that functionally is busted in singles. Nuking everything under weather is super grody.
Fischous Rend go burr. Legit, nothing has changed to make Vish less of a nuke that warps the tier. If anything, its gotten better with Tera now on the radar.
Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear are still tms, so if this thing comes back it will get those again… As much as Kyube was the goat in Gens V-VII, he’s finally the monster game freak always wanted him to be.
I know the ultra beasts are not as likely to return, but I wanted to be thorough. Mosa is almost certainly going to do the same dumb things it did the past two gens. It can run a super strong pivot set that hits like a nuke and pivots easily or be a strong special sweeper that is hard to handle and snowballs hard. We have banned it twice and I do not see anything changing to make managing Pheromosa any easier.
Similarly, I doubt Naganadel would be a good candidate for a drop. It still ends up snowballing hard with its nasty plot set due to Beast Boost, making it effectively a sweeper that is insanely hard to revenge kill. Its defensive answers to a +2 draco meteor/sludge wave are slim to none. It is still going to be menace if it is let in the tier.
I will applaud the OU council for not letting Landorus Incarnate into the tier for a few days, since Landorus is still a monster. It has such limited defensive counterplay and can rip anything slower than it apart in seconds. Also it has Nasty Plot now, in case you were worried its few defensive answers could hold up at all.
Fastest Quickban in OU history. F*#k tera blast.
I could post the funny sun calc, but instead I will just say that this thing has no defensive answers whatsoever and ends up nuking everything in sight that is slower than the little fish. Just don't compare Darkrai to this mon for the sake of my sanity and not wanting to do calcs to show how much stronger this is.
Honorable mentions to Lele, Melmetal, and Shedinja for mons I’d be scared of this meta but by being OU instead of Uber get a pass. I’d go 3,2, and 1 respectively. If yall have any questions on my picks, I can go more in depth on any of them. I tried to keep what I put on the poll to mons that were being discussed in this thread, so if there's anything I missed lmk and I can share my thoughts.
I will have five tiers for drops, as followed.
5: Safe Drop in the grand scheme of things, likely won't be hit in the initial banwave. If it is hit, it would be months down the line.
4: Likely would be very strong, but I would expect it suspected down the line rather than immediately quickbanned if it is a problem.
3: Borderline case. I would lean no in most of these cases, but I could *maybe* convince myself its worth a drop.
2: I would be scared to have this back and would expect a quick ban, but it is not as egregious as anything before it.
1: No, not a goddamn chance in hell this is ok to bring back.
5
IMO, if this thing comes back it is far and away the safest thing to drop. I'm gonna be frank, I doubt this even stays in OU if it drops. Hazard stacking has evolved far beyond Gen 6, when this was last in OU. Dual Screens have evolved a ton too. Why run a dual screen Deo D when options like Ninetales Alola, Grimmsnarl, or Dragapult exist? Why run a hazard lead set when we have so many amazing spikers like Hisuian Samurott, Ting Lu, or if it comes back Gliscor? I have seen some people fear the idea of this thing running a Gliscor like set and just sticking around for the entire game, but I highly doubt that. Gliscor had a strong defensive type coupled with a functional status immunity. Deo D has one of the worst defensive types in the game and isnt status immune. Heck, it isnt even that bulky at the end of the day, its low health pool make it weaker than it would seem at forst glance. Also unlike Gliscor, it can't really be a threat in the back to stallbreak.Honestly, this thing will probably end up being a worse Mew and end up dropping to RUBL. I almost debated having a separate tier because any other drop compared to this thing would be way scarier to drop.
Speaking of hazards, we have the last suspect. Gliscor was a centralizing, annoying presence (particularly with a certain golden boi in the tier)... but I feel like dropping it here would be more or less fine. With our recent experiences, we could potentially answer what the issues with hazards truly are. Gliscor on its own with spikes is super strong, obviously. If we tested Gholdengo instead and banned it, we would likely still be having discussions about Gliscor. But compared to most of our other drops, I think Gliscor would be a productive one to pursue. I want to stress that being a 5 does not automatically make you a perfect fit for OU. But I do think that Roaring Moon has a good shot of staying in the tier. For me, its suspect test was a moment of too many threats being in the tier at once. Something had to give, and Moon was the one that drew the most ire. I won't lie, it would be strong if it came back. DD was silly, especially with Tera thrown into the mix. Banded also was not half bad and was seeing play. I do think Roaring Moon would be good, but I do think with Tera being one of the first questions we will be confronting in this new meta, Roaring Moon is a prime candidate for a drop.I am not going to bore you all with a long discussion about Volc. I will just say that I support Tera Blast action and Volc imo added more to the tier than it took away. Similar to another mon, I think a lot of the discussion on Volc has already been treaded upon, so I won't waste too much time on it, but I do think it is a prime candidate for a drop.4
In all seriousness, I do think Darkrai is worth a look in OU. Darkrai discussion is kind of done to death at this point, so I am just going to keep this to one paragraph for now. Yes, it is fast and a strong set up sweeper. It also has bad defensive synergy, a mediocre stab move, Life Orb isnt as strong nowadays, and you have bad 4MSS. Specs is prediction reliant. I honestly think Sub sets are under explored in discussion, but those run into the core issues the mon has as well. We also have the tour games (Small sample size obviously) that help suggest this might be fine in OU. It also has gotten some direct nerfs since the last time it was OU.
I do not know if it would stay OU (i lean it would), but I still think its worthwhile to test it given ho wmuch has changed since last time it was legal.
: Mans got banned for Chien Pao's sins.Being a bit more serious, I do think Zamazenta Crowned was a symptom of the meta where it got banned, not the cause of the problems. Zamazenta Crowned feasted on a meta dominated by Hyper Offense, which mons like Chien Pao, Magearna, and Urshifu Rapid Strike mandated. In an OU meta without those running around, honestly I can see it being fine. It is certainly a better IDBP sweeper than its Hero counterpart. Getting a steel type and a boosted defensive profile tends to do that. But I do not think it would be nearly as scary now with how the meta has evolved.
This one honestly varies on what comes back. If we get Tapus, this thing drops like a rock. I would be very scared of Sneasler in a metagame with Tapu Lele chunking its few checks and setting up terrain for it. If we don't get Tapus back... I honestly thing it would be fine. Assuming Gliscor returns, its a lot easier to check this thing at the end of the day. Sneasler is still going to be a silly, cheesy mon, but I doubt that it would be the quickban target it was if we had the drops we could be getting. Hot take, I think this is actually a good candidate for a drop. The metagame Ape was in was basically warped by Chi Yu and Cyclizar, letting it go wild. Nowadays, I am not as sold that it would be the immediately broken threat that it was last time.Ape's claim to fame was its bulk up set, but I feel like that set is going to be worse in the current metagame. Hazards have progressed to a point that it would likely be hard for Ape to abuse its bulk as strongly as it did last time. It is always going to be awful for stall, but I feel in a faster metagame it would probably
Kyurem is going to be silly for most of the reasons it got banned last gen. It can actually use its 130 Attack stat now with a DD set. Freeze Dry still lets it muscle through things. It's gonna be good.And yet, I think it is still a good candidate for a drop. It still has the issues of basically starving itself for boots. Roost also is gone with Dexit, which makes Kyurem have a lot harder of a time dealing with chip or leveraging its bulk. Will it still be scary to deal with defensively? Sure, but with the way stall is built nowadays I doubt it moves the needle much on anything without Roost.
3
: I want to stress before I go in depth on these mons, that anything in this tier or below I would not unban. If the public sentiment around Blood Moon wasnt as decisive, I would consider it for the tier above.Alas, this was a pretty decisive suspect. Despite not being obviously broken at face value, Ursaluna still was just so fat and could at worst trade easily with fast teams or just win outright. Even without Tera, this mon was a menace. It would probably be able to do the same nonsense if it was unbanned as it did in September. I also doubt the meta is going to move in a way that makes dealing with Blood Moon suddenly feasible.
I am torn on Genesect. On one hand, the mon is taking a heavy hit. Losing its set up sets and losing Extremespeed are huge hits. It does cut down on the versaitily that Genesect had in the past. It also does not help that 99 speed isnt the god tier speed stat with a scarf it used to be. It would be a lot harder for Genesect to be the pivot/revenge killer/sweeper/wallbreaker it wants to be when speed tiers have risen higher and higher. What also made me skeptical of it dropping is the rise of Spikes. Genesect hates losing 25% of its health coming in or having to give up its item to run boots.Then I remembered Tera Blast Exists. That is a bit yikes with download and made me a lot more cautious about unbanning it. If we banned Tera Blast, I genuinely think that it is a worthwhile discussion to drop this thing. Unlike in previous generations, Genesect actually is sustaining a few hard nerfs. I feel like this is the best metagame in a while where Genesect has a chance to stay OU... if Tera Blast was off the table. With Tera Blast in the tier as is, I would be more cautious about dropping Genesect into the tier.
This is Darkshifu, which imo actually would be the less busted form this gen.Darkshifu obviously is spooky. It was nuts last gen and it got SD and Punching Glove (which it doesn’t abuse nearly as hard as its Water type counterpart). It still is going to punch things hard and break holes into the enemy team. So why am I even entertaining this one while I have strong feelings about the other one?
Well, I think Darkshifu actually offers things to the tier. While it is a scary wallbreaker, it isn't overwhelmingly so. Ironically, I think it would be *easier* to handle defensively nowadays due to Tera Fairy shenanigans. It isnt impossible for me to see this thing settling into OU as an A+ mon people complain about but ends up fine. Better players than me have given arguments to test this, and if it wasn't for their arguments this would be lower. But I dunno, its kinda appealing. An offensive gambit check that might actually be worse this gen despite getting SD? It almost makes enough sense to unban. But like I said, its still a brutal wallbreaker that I do not want to let into the tier, though I could be convinced otherwise.
Unlike its bad form, Deo S would be pretty spooky. 180 speed with nasty plot and Tera blast is one hell of a drug. This thing would likely be on the radar for the same it was in Gen 6: it’s offensive sets. The lead sets imo, while holding up better than Deo D due to having a fast taunt, would still not be its scariest stuff. I don’t think those would even put it on the radar. I’m more scared of this thing as a revenge killer. 4 attack life orb or just nasty plot sound scary.And yet, I feel like offensive teams would be able to handle this thing better than in past gens. 95 offensives aren’t that scary at the end of the day, even backed by life orb. It’s got good coverage, but I feel that it wouldn’t cripple offensive teams the same way it did in Gen 6. I would have given this a 4 if Tera Blast was banned, since that is what scared me the most tbh. Its no Regieleki with a good pivot move to compliment its strengths, but it still would be a hurdle to handle defensively.
Objectively, this could have been a 2, but I feel like Hearthflame isn't *as bad* as some of the mons below? Yes, its scary both with and without Tera. Yes, it was hard to deal with defensively, but at least it got worn down pretty well by rocks? Yeah, this thing is probably still going to be unhealthy, but I feel at least compared to most of the mons below it has a fairer shot, at least with how new it is.Still do not unban this probably, Zacian C at home is a nightmare and I do not want to get bonked again.
2
Ironically, the Bulk Up set wasn't what go this into 2. If the Bulk Up Set was my only concern, it would have probably gotten into 3. But unfortunately for it, the Banded set would still be super rough to switch into. Tera Water Wave Crash is one hell of a drug off of an attack stat that would make Slaking blush.I could probalby be convinced to put this in 3, but I would still be very hesitant to let this thing end up in OU again.
Hey look, its better Palafin.You know how I said banded Tera Water Wave Crash was one hell of a drug? Now imagine having SD Punching Glove Surging Strikes and a strong duel stab. This thing was super busted in HOME, easily more problematic than Zama C. Dealing with it defensively, especially under rain was a herculean task. Playing anything other than HO into this thing was back breaking. It genuinely is astonishing how much of a buff SD and punching glove were, giving it nucelar levels of damage.
The highest survey response for a ban, Bax loses basically nothing that made him a monster. Veil + Scale Shot turned an already problematic mon into one of the dumbest mons OU ever saw. Unless for some reason Veil goes, I doubt that Bax will be a safe drop at all for the rest of the gen. Killing it under veil was so hard due to Snow making it even fatter, while it crushed most defensive counterplay. I’ve seen some people bring him, Giratina forms, and Arceus Bug up, so I slotted them on the list. Personally, I wouldn’t drop any of them.Solgaelo isn’t broken due to its offensive profile. Tbh, I wouldn’t even put Calm Mind or band on my radar for why it would be too much for the tier. The issue imo is this thing as a support mon. It’s so fat with a good defensive typing and has teleport. A set of teleport, knock off, morning sun, and maybe some filler move feels like an insanely strong glue mon that would be centralizing. I guess if you wanna get funky and test it it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but this imo is not worth leaving in OU.
/: I have similar thoughts on both forms, but I will tackle Origin first since it is imo the more appealing to drop. It has an item restriction (granted it gets a 1.2x boost to its STABs with it), has no reliable recovery outside of rest, and offers us potentially the best hazard removal the tier would ever see. That sounds super appealing... too appealing. My issue with Giratina O isnt some worry about its offensive sets, imo those would be more or less par for the course in modern OU. My issue is how splashable it is. What team wouldn't want to throw this thing on it? It would be the equivalent of a GSC Snorlax tier glue dropping into OU. Would that be fun? Sure. Would that arguably make some of the problems of the tier go away? Sure, but this is not the method to do so.Giratina Altered is honestly probably a bit dumber due to being able to hold a held item. Its super fat and Pult has shown us that specs draco even from a 100 Spa isnt anything to scoff at, and this would be able to go modest. It is just too fat to really be healthy for the tier. Yes, defogging would be great, but this isn't the way to do it.
The biggest reason this got a 2 instead of a 1 is that Proto synthesis was not properly coded when it was out. I still think this would almost certainly be too much for OU. It’s just too fast and strong with two of, if not the two best offensive types in the game. Good luck handling booster calm mind sets or specs sets, this thing is a menace. If I didn’t have some morbid curiosity of how much the proto coding mattered in terms of its ban, this would have gotten the 1 it deserves. Bundle did have the Proto changes, and it still is stupid. Turns out, being only outsped by Pult and having no safe switchins that arent Blissey is kinda gross. Specs Bundle was so hard to deal with due to Freeze Dry, and Hydro Pump could clean up a team with even minor chip. So many games early on were decided by Bundle speed ties it was gross. Spectrier was a super toxic mon last gen, and it got buffed with Draining Kiss. Literally it gets its biggest flaw, its lack of coverage, fixed this gen, while still being strong as hell and fast as hell in the blink of an eye. Banded G Darm is just gross. The only reason this did not get a 1 is due to how it is weak to hazards, but this thing would abuse them so hard. Switching into G Darm is a nightmare, even without factoring in Tera. I would prefer not having to rely on G Darm guessing games every game, hoping I read my opponent's G Darm choice only to still die to a banded Tera Ice Icicle Crash. I would think it would be fun if it got banned three times, but yeah, Pao is nuts. Its almost impossible to handle defenisvely and outspeeds almost everything. I struggle to see it not causing the same issues it did in HOME, pushing HO as the only playstyle due to how punishing it is to every other one. Its a shame too, I do like Mega Weavile. If we ban Tera Blast, I would consider bumping this into the 3-4 range. Espathra needed Tera Blast and Terastraliziation to be the threat it was. It was such a dumb MU fish of a mon, I would prefer if it rotted in Ubers for the rest of time. Espathra was legit one of the most frustrating mons in all of Gen IX OU for me due to how little player agency you had vs it. If you just cued up with the wrong playstyle or even just a team that wasn't prepping for it hard, you got punished hard. It felt like losing to baton pass: the game wasn't lost due to one player playing well, just due to mu fishing and cheese. The only unanimous suspect test ban in OU History IIRC, Shaymin Sky does help prove that 60%=100%. Air Slash flinches are cringe, Seed Flare making switching into this thing brutally hard is even worse. It outspeeds almost the entire unboosted tier and brings in some super unfun RNG that can let it brute force its way past its own checks. Once was enough this gen. I hate this mon with a passion. Legit, the post Eleki pre Mag ban would be my bottom pick for SV metagames, thank arceus it only lasted a few days. Mag is ridiculously versatile, hard to answer defensively, and stupidly easy to sweep with. Nothing has changed from Gen VIII, where it got quickbanned. It still can outlast its counters well and with Thousand Arrows, that pool is very small. Coil, Banded, DD, and even Glare sets make it so hard to get a uniform defensive check outside of the bulkiest of grass types. I feel like everyone knows why this thing is toxic as hell, so I won't go too in depth.1
Any form. Just assume its bug so we can say that it is a bad idea to test this thing. Its just too fat and too versatile. Simple as that. Even in the hypothetical scenario where Tera is banned from OU and this thing can't just become another Arceus type at will, we are still dealing with a mon with insane defenses, good offensive stats, and an excellent movepool. I think this would be a horrible candidate for a drop. Dialga has a bad new form now!... that still has insane bulk and a special attack the size of Skyrim. I fail to see how this would be a good drop outside of morbid curiosity. / Broken moves are still broken. Shed Tail honestly seems like it would only get more oppressive as time goes on. The faster and stronger the meta is, the scarier one free set up turn is. As for Last Respects, its just a move that functionally is busted in singles. Nuking everything under weather is super grody. Fischous Rend go burr. Legit, nothing has changed to make Vish less of a nuke that warps the tier. If anything, its gotten better with Tera now on the radar. Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear are still tms, so if this thing comes back it will get those again… As much as Kyube was the goat in Gens V-VII, he’s finally the monster game freak always wanted him to be. I know the ultra beasts are not as likely to return, but I wanted to be thorough. Mosa is almost certainly going to do the same dumb things it did the past two gens. It can run a super strong pivot set that hits like a nuke and pivots easily or be a strong special sweeper that is hard to handle and snowballs hard. We have banned it twice and I do not see anything changing to make managing Pheromosa any easier. Similarly, I doubt Naganadel would be a good candidate for a drop. It still ends up snowballing hard with its nasty plot set due to Beast Boost, making it effectively a sweeper that is insanely hard to revenge kill. Its defensive answers to a +2 draco meteor/sludge wave are slim to none. It is still going to be menace if it is let in the tier. I will applaud the OU council for not letting Landorus Incarnate into the tier for a few days, since Landorus is still a monster. It has such limited defensive counterplay and can rip anything slower than it apart in seconds. Also it has Nasty Plot now, in case you were worried its few defensive answers could hold up at all. Fastest Quickban in OU history. F*#k tera blast. I could post the funny sun calc, but instead I will just say that this thing has no defensive answers whatsoever and ends up nuking everything in sight that is slower than the little fish. Just don't compare Darkrai to this mon for the sake of my sanity and not wanting to do calcs to show how much stronger this is.Honorable mentions to Lele, Melmetal, and Shedinja for mons I’d be scared of this meta but by being OU instead of Uber get a pass. I’d go 3,2, and 1 respectively. If yall have any questions on my picks, I can go more in depth on any of them. I tried to keep what I put on the poll to mons that were being discussed in this thread, so if there's anything I missed lmk and I can share my thoughts.
I feel like we should just stop talking about dropping random ass Ubers to OU for a bit. The Darkrai discussion has been legit brainrot.
And for those who want the other ban victims/Ubers dropped so badly, the floodgates will (temporarily) open when DLC2 comes along in 2 weeks anyways. This includes wonderful mons such as the funny death ape (Annihilape), the sun god matchup moth, Salamence’s illegitimate ancestor, Sneasler and Gliscor. It’s better to just discuss what’s actively going on in OU right now, such as Gholdengo/Manaphy/Waterpon/Kingambit or whatever other major annoyances are still here atm.
I will be bringing the Double Dance Gliscor set to the function though once DLC2 comes. You can’t stop me.
And for those who want the other ban victims/Ubers dropped so badly, the floodgates will (temporarily) open when DLC2 comes along in 2 weeks anyways. This includes wonderful mons such as the funny death ape (Annihilape), the sun god matchup moth, Salamence’s illegitimate ancestor, Sneasler and Gliscor. It’s better to just discuss what’s actively going on in OU right now, such as Gholdengo/Manaphy/Waterpon/Kingambit or whatever other major annoyances are still here atm.
I said it before and I guess I have to say it again
Outspeeds all but 2 Pokemon after Unburden
Can't be revenge killed by Ditto
Easily survives Tera Normal Extreme Speed from Choice Band Dragonite
The few Pokemon that can tank +2 Close Combats, Acrobatics, and Lash Outs (and can force out Sneasler somehow) have to deal with Dire Claw, which even if you can take it too you just have a casual 1/5 chance to either being fully paralyzed or put to sleep.
WHY
DO
PEOPLE
KEEP
SAYING
IT'S
FINE
A 4 doesn’t mean it’s fine, it means it can come back and I wouldn’t be opposed or shocked if it didn’t stay. It also helps that with other unbans like Gliscor or even Zam C, it becomes easier to check Sneasler. I’d personally prefer it didn’t come back since I hate its play pattern, but from an objective standpoint with unbans I’m giving it a pass.
You very clearly did not play with sneasler while gliscor is in the tier. Under grassy terrain, sneasler can SD twice in the face of gliscor EQ. Abso fucking lutely not do not let this thing touch OU ever again
Ok here's my take on the tier list provided by MX42
Nothing in tier 5, but you could argue Gliscor should be there (anyone who puts sneasler anywhere other than tier 1 is genuinely deluded). For tier 4, Volc should be tested instead of just released, same with ape. Everything in tier 3 is borderline but that doesn't mean I want them tested, keep them out. In tier 2, these are the things that seem broken but are just not broken enough that I feel they could theoretically be allowed in the tier. Tier 1 is where most of this shit goes and where most of it should stay. Darkrai could probably go in tier 2 but regardless I stand by everything else. Not actually banned is self explanatory. Thank you for coming to my TED talk
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For one more point on Darkrai though, I just wanted to mention how potentially broken it will be on Webs.
You know how Sneasler made Grassy Terrain a borderline broken playstyle in OU thanks to how well it abused it? Darkrai seems like it could do the same thing for Webs.
Everyone already knows how strong of a Special Attacker the thing is, but what really allows Darkrai to abuse Webs is having 125 Speed. This allows it to just outright deny Cinderace the opportunity to use Court Change by outspeeding and immediately killing the thing off. It also outspeeds Enamorus and Webs remove the advantage Booster Energy gives Valiant, meaning these two can’t revenge kill Darkrai at all and immediately die to either 2+ Ice Beam or Sludge Bomb. It’s also Sucker Punch resistant so not even Kingambit can pick it off either. Only thing capable of stopping Darkrai on Webs is HDB Zamazenta, and that’s if Darkrai doesn’t pull Tera Fairy out.
This thing should not be allowed in OU lol
You know how Sneasler made Grassy Terrain a borderline broken playstyle in OU thanks to how well it abused it? Darkrai seems like it could do the same thing for Webs.
Everyone already knows how strong of a Special Attacker the thing is, but what really allows Darkrai to abuse Webs is having 125 Speed. This allows it to just outright deny Cinderace the opportunity to use Court Change by outspeeding and immediately killing the thing off. It also outspeeds Enamorus and Webs remove the advantage Booster Energy gives Valiant, meaning these two can’t revenge kill Darkrai at all and immediately die to either 2+ Ice Beam or Sludge Bomb. It’s also Sucker Punch resistant so not even Kingambit can pick it off either. Only thing capable of stopping Darkrai on Webs is HDB Zamazenta, and that’s if Darkrai doesn’t pull Tera Fairy out.
This thing should not be allowed in OU lol
Actually, webs does worse than just put Valiant at +0 speed, it actually changes what stat BE boosts. It's really dumb and I hate it but /shrug.
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