might be the most giga matchup fish mon ever, except it's not even great at matchup fishing. okay valiant zama and lop check but gets boiled instantly by ttar gambit av iron crown kingambit melmetal kingambit gholdengo if you aren't able to set up a nasty plot lele rapagos spdef corv/glisc dnite and also kingambit. I take a personal issue with mons who rely on poorly built teams to succeed, and while i don't think everything needs or SHOULD fit within the wishpass rillaboom pinkacross approved™ christmas special (probably the most successful way to consistently teambuild) but deo-s isn't even degenerate, it just punishes teams without pursuit, priority, or a solid defensive core. inshallah i get reqs between finals
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Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 16 - Subterranean Homesick Alien
- Thread starter omarsgarciav
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really wish that moon was looked at first instead of this guy but oh well what are you gonna do.
I think that deoxys-speed, while not a problem in the current metagame, should be banned (but I'm not hard-set).
The main issue with deoxys speed isn't the pokemon itself, but more what it enables. It's an insanely versatile HO lead, and the only reason it's not as good right now is the lackluster state HO is in. I think this is why there's a noticeable lack of it on ladder currently, which is also why it's been somewhat underwhelming, especially for people on ladder. Deoxys-speed is the type of pokemon that, while not broken on its own is a strong enabler for other, more broken pokemon in the metagame. The main issue is though, these pokemon that are broken aren't in the metagame right now, causing it to be a somewhat underwhelming cleaner on psyspam or lead on HO.
This is just personal preference, but I think that some of the later suspects that were slated (moon, palafin, etc) are going to be decided by how this one goes, and it's just that I'd rather something more interesting for the metagame like moon than a pretty boring suicide lead. I also don't think it contributes anything of substance to the tier, current state or in a metagame with more HO mons, which is another point against it.
I'm by no means fully convinced however, and am definitely still willing to hear people out on both sides of the argument here, so if anyone's got some points or other things that they wanted to bring up in response to this post, just let me know.
I think that deoxys-speed, while not a problem in the current metagame, should be banned (but I'm not hard-set).
The main issue with deoxys speed isn't the pokemon itself, but more what it enables. It's an insanely versatile HO lead, and the only reason it's not as good right now is the lackluster state HO is in. I think this is why there's a noticeable lack of it on ladder currently, which is also why it's been somewhat underwhelming, especially for people on ladder. Deoxys-speed is the type of pokemon that, while not broken on its own is a strong enabler for other, more broken pokemon in the metagame. The main issue is though, these pokemon that are broken aren't in the metagame right now, causing it to be a somewhat underwhelming cleaner on psyspam or lead on HO.
This is just personal preference, but I think that some of the later suspects that were slated (moon, palafin, etc) are going to be decided by how this one goes, and it's just that I'd rather something more interesting for the metagame like moon than a pretty boring suicide lead. I also don't think it contributes anything of substance to the tier, current state or in a metagame with more HO mons, which is another point against it.
I'm by no means fully convinced however, and am definitely still willing to hear people out on both sides of the argument here, so if anyone's got some points or other things that they wanted to bring up in response to this post, just let me know.
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That's a funny calc but the Deo-S I faced surely was Timid. Timid Deo-S is mid. MOdest is the only usable set, and really, it's usable. it will drop to any AV/Lucky Melme, drop to any KGB with chip if you're running your obscure set, without if you are not, nah bc it's cute to live at 2 HP from full but then rocks factor comes in. here's a line I got to-day, ON psychic terrain
Deoxys unleashes its full-force Z-Move!
Deoxys used Shattered Psyche!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Scizor lost 32% of its health!)
Yea I'll leave that as is.
deo-S is balanced, a fast NP er for sure, but it's js gon be an OU mon with the impact, of, say, Iron treads. HO is defo better with it, but like HO is low asf rn and I js think Deo S will make it viable. Deo S will be a bit of new toy syndrome and then it'll fade. OR it will make Terrain much more common, but other terrains, defog, and Ice spinner also exist, so why so scared? most teams that die to Z Deoxys allso die to Sash Alakazam, except if they run Dragapult, but that requires you to play Physical dragapult, easily wallable and killable if you carry another form of speed control (Base 120 of zam is never enough except against Mid teams. So eh yea it requires skill to beat Deo, but the tier is Giga infested with people running the most random shit ever. "Freedom" is fun until Ladder is NOTHING like high-level games. and I mean NOTHING. Unban Deo S would actively make the tier better, and how can we say no to a psychic that can punish steels and darks from sitting on it. also, the "too much coverage" argument is weak, deo doesn't get any special Fire type move, or fairy move at all. mons like Gallade n Terapagos get much more, esp gallade who has a physical move of every type except fairy and steel, has SD, a higher base offensive stat, and yet it's balanced and niche. the only hing going for deo S is 180 fken speed.
js gonna haha his rq.
anyways I don't think the next suspects like palafin will bring something to the meta more than aestethic pokémon (???) whereas Deo S keeps HO viable in a meta with much bulkier Pokémon being Much much more common than before Tera ban. Deo is not a Boring Suicide lead, it's a strong one, and I do think a lot of the anti-deo know that Moon with Deo around is broken but do want moon in the tier. For some reason a Pokémon that kills unprepared teams (for it is new) is broken, when offensive teams can put Pressure and Defensive teams Bulk it out is not really convincing me tha the mon is broken. Same as with Tera, if i gets Uber'd at the end of the sus I won't be demolished but I won't support the decision. i'll try not to elaborate too much n make it a word salad this time
I personally think the presence of z moves makes it really powerful fightium z with focus blast, also priority isn’t a problem with tapu lele my set gets hard countered by steel/ghost and dark/ghost since I opted not to bring a ghost type move and brought psycho boost instead so I don’t think this thing is quite ou but it’s not uber so I think it should stay And if you get a nasty plot up rip to them my suspect test account got higher than my regular account
By the way you're all criminal for not using touhou heian alien as the suspect song here. That shit was so easy...
That said, got reqs w some SD RestoChesto Chomp + NP Deo-S balance. Deo-S I'd say is good, but fine. It's good when it leans into doing 1 specific job; otherwise it's honestly ass. I personally picked to lean into breaking bulkier squads w NP Psynoise + Fightinium. At this job it's really good, but I feel like it's a mon that sucks alot more vs people who know what they're doing. A Newbie stomper mon, where simply just... playing better is how it gets stuff done. I think it has a degree of struggling to actually get in, and fails to threaten a ton of signifcant OHKOs vs bulkier stuff without a boost. And even if you invest in speed all the way to beat all the boosting threats, you're coughing up a lot of either bulk or power. If you want to outspeed great tusk after a spin? You're forced to run 56 evs and a boosting nature, and that's SLOW among our speed control options. Booster/Scarf I-val is hopeless, Iron moth isn't happening, and nor is scarf kartana. The absolute highest you can peak at is a +1 chomp, which is a good target sure, but you're needing to go pretty much ALL in to get that benchmark and idt it's worth it.
Frankly, I think Deo-S is fine. Obviously if your using a team with speed control like... scarf gholdengo or Lando-T and your +2 answer to Deo-S is like, Zapdos. Then you might have issues, but this is a building flaw in my opinion. Even then, defensive stopgaps like Ting Lu, Mega Sableye (use him more he cant be THAT bad), the sucker punch kingambits on like 30% of teams, hatterene, among some others can manage it even after a boost.
That said, got reqs w some SD RestoChesto Chomp + NP Deo-S balance. Deo-S I'd say is good, but fine. It's good when it leans into doing 1 specific job; otherwise it's honestly ass. I personally picked to lean into breaking bulkier squads w NP Psynoise + Fightinium. At this job it's really good, but I feel like it's a mon that sucks alot more vs people who know what they're doing. A Newbie stomper mon, where simply just... playing better is how it gets stuff done. I think it has a degree of struggling to actually get in, and fails to threaten a ton of signifcant OHKOs vs bulkier stuff without a boost. And even if you invest in speed all the way to beat all the boosting threats, you're coughing up a lot of either bulk or power. If you want to outspeed great tusk after a spin? You're forced to run 56 evs and a boosting nature, and that's SLOW among our speed control options. Booster/Scarf I-val is hopeless, Iron moth isn't happening, and nor is scarf kartana. The absolute highest you can peak at is a +1 chomp, which is a good target sure, but you're needing to go pretty much ALL in to get that benchmark and idt it's worth it.
Frankly, I think Deo-S is fine. Obviously if your using a team with speed control like... scarf gholdengo or Lando-T and your +2 answer to Deo-S is like, Zapdos. Then you might have issues, but this is a building flaw in my opinion. Even then, defensive stopgaps like Ting Lu, Mega Sableye (use him more he cant be THAT bad), the sucker punch kingambits on like 30% of teams, hatterene, among some others can manage it even after a boost.
I've only fought a few Deoxys on the ladder so far, an amount within the single digits, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I plan to get reqs later and that may change my views on this Pokemon, but as of now, here is my opinion:
I don't think Deoxys is all that people make it up to be. Sure it's egregiously fast and has excellent coverage, but it is also a U-Turn weak sweeper with middling defenses that while not bad, leave it very prone to being chipped while trying to set up. Lead sets are undeniably obnoxious, but I doubt they will turn HO into an almost-unstoppable force like it was back when Tera was a thing. What sets it apart from many other common suicide leads is the fact that you can't just counter-lead something like Great Tusk right off the bat to minimize the amount of hazards it will set. However, we still have things like Speed Boost Tusk and Treads to cleanse the hazards it sets later on in the match (I believe the latter can even safely counter-lead it). Many of the best defoggers we have (like Corviknight, Zapdos, and Moltres) can also safely take a hit or two and remove the hazards that were set.
I do think that the Nasty Plot Z sets are its best use. With terrain support from Lele, it is incredibly hard to stop when it gets rolling. In SV OU offensive sets are greatly limited due to the best Psychic Terrain setter being Indeedee, and the lack of Z Crystals in the format. National Dex has both Z Moves and an excellent setter in Lele, greatly increasing the potential of the Z Deoxys sets. However, the hard part comes with actually setting up with Deoxys. I mentioned before how Deoxys has many flaws as a sweeper. It is very prone to being picked at due to its middling defenses, and more importantly, it is weak to the most common pivoting move in the game, U-Turn. A skilled opponent will be able to exploit these weaknesses to their advantage, making it hard to position your Deoxys for a successful sweep. Though when you DO get to use a Nasty Plot, you can cause a ton of damage to the enemy's side, especially under Psychic Terrain. Fightinium Z makes it so that you don't have to rely on the very inaccurate Focus Blast, and lets you blast through a would-be counter like Ting-Lu with ease. Deoxys seems like an incredibly volatile sweeper, it either fails miserably or costs the opponent an arm and a leg to stop.
I do not think that you should judge a Pokemon based on how much "value" it adds to the format. I personally think that a Pokemon should only be ousted from the format if: 1. It is too overwhelming for many people to handle, or 2. It enables a certain playstyle to an unhealthy and centralizing degree, but that's another can of worms that I don't want to dive in to at the moment. I think that Deoxys dances on a fine line between being overwhelming and beatable due to how volatile it is. It could be considered a "skill check" in some ways.
So far, I am undecided on my vote, I'm leaning towards unbanning it, but I want to do some more testing. I want to listen to some more arguments from both sides before I settle on a decision. I understand some of the reasoning behind both sides, and am eager to see this debate continue.
I don't think Deoxys is all that people make it up to be. Sure it's egregiously fast and has excellent coverage, but it is also a U-Turn weak sweeper with middling defenses that while not bad, leave it very prone to being chipped while trying to set up. Lead sets are undeniably obnoxious, but I doubt they will turn HO into an almost-unstoppable force like it was back when Tera was a thing. What sets it apart from many other common suicide leads is the fact that you can't just counter-lead something like Great Tusk right off the bat to minimize the amount of hazards it will set. However, we still have things like Speed Boost Tusk and Treads to cleanse the hazards it sets later on in the match (I believe the latter can even safely counter-lead it). Many of the best defoggers we have (like Corviknight, Zapdos, and Moltres) can also safely take a hit or two and remove the hazards that were set.
I do think that the Nasty Plot Z sets are its best use. With terrain support from Lele, it is incredibly hard to stop when it gets rolling. In SV OU offensive sets are greatly limited due to the best Psychic Terrain setter being Indeedee, and the lack of Z Crystals in the format. National Dex has both Z Moves and an excellent setter in Lele, greatly increasing the potential of the Z Deoxys sets. However, the hard part comes with actually setting up with Deoxys. I mentioned before how Deoxys has many flaws as a sweeper. It is very prone to being picked at due to its middling defenses, and more importantly, it is weak to the most common pivoting move in the game, U-Turn. A skilled opponent will be able to exploit these weaknesses to their advantage, making it hard to position your Deoxys for a successful sweep. Though when you DO get to use a Nasty Plot, you can cause a ton of damage to the enemy's side, especially under Psychic Terrain. Fightinium Z makes it so that you don't have to rely on the very inaccurate Focus Blast, and lets you blast through a would-be counter like Ting-Lu with ease. Deoxys seems like an incredibly volatile sweeper, it either fails miserably or costs the opponent an arm and a leg to stop.
I do not think that you should judge a Pokemon based on how much "value" it adds to the format. I personally think that a Pokemon should only be ousted from the format if: 1. It is too overwhelming for many people to handle, or 2. It enables a certain playstyle to an unhealthy and centralizing degree, but that's another can of worms that I don't want to dive in to at the moment. I think that Deoxys dances on a fine line between being overwhelming and beatable due to how volatile it is. It could be considered a "skill check" in some ways.
So far, I am undecided on my vote, I'm leaning towards unbanning it, but I want to do some more testing. I want to listen to some more arguments from both sides before I settle on a decision. I understand some of the reasoning behind both sides, and am eager to see this debate continue.
I will be voting to unban Deoxys and I strongly encourage all of you to do the same.
Lead Deoxys is definitely not broken. It's a hazard setter that loses HARD to Terapagos, the second best remover in the tier - this alone is pretty terrible. Not only that, it generally gets up rocks + 1 layer of spikes, which really isn't anything unreasonable when you compare it to Sash Hamu for example, which is capable of getting 2 layers + chip on something else, or Sash Lando, which easily gets up rocks and massively chunks/KOs something else with Explosion. Overall, it really is not disproportionately powerful in the context of other hazard leads.
Offensive Deoxys is also nothing extraordinary. I got reqs with this team https://pokepast.es/2256b9d24a2b6373, which wasn't even built to account for Deoxys but naturally does so anyway, such as through Mtar, AV Melm, and Tspikes. Deoxys is a Pokemon that, on paper, has few switch-ins, but in practice, is more than manageable. Its STABs and coverage all have common immunities, and it is so weak that it generally has to get turns exactly right in order to scrape a 2HKO, which gives you a lot of room to maneuver around it in practice. There are a number of issues that make it not broken in the context of this metagame:
1. While it technically has no hard counters on paper, this is not unique. The same can be said about Iron Valiant (Booster Valiant is honestly more threatening than Deoxys), Ogerpon-W, and Gholdengo, and all three of them are fine because what is achievable on paper is not necessarily achievable in practice.
2. The key issue with Deoxys is that its 1v1 matchup spread is actually not great given its inability to score OHKOs without dropping a Z, and hence it does not force that much out without risk, indirectly addressing the issue of lacking hard counters (which honestly should not be criteria to drop a mon in the first place). Deoxys in practice has to get too many turns right to be broken, for a reward that generally amounts to an OHKO and chip on something else, which is perfectly reasonable as a reward for great play.
3. It is so frail that it cannot switch into basically anything. It's forced to run Life Orb or Z, and hence is also incredibly vulnerable to hazard chip, putting it in range of priority such as Thunderclap. Hence, it generally lacks opportunities coming in maybe twice in one game if not already sacked to chip something else.
4. It's really not easy to fit on a team without compromising the team's matchup spread against the metagame, given its complete lack of defensive utility. It's very difficult to cover most threats at least decently well when you have a mon that can't switch into basically anything, and hence Deoxys structures become quite predictable in practice, which gives opponents room for more consistent counterplay against the team as a whole. Even if you believe Deoxys is very strong on a team, the team as a whole may not be too strong even with Deoxys. I will also segue into discussions of Psyterrain here. I believe Psyterrain not only does not break Deoxys, but is also generally bad in this metagame. It is similar to Walking Wake on Sun in CG OU, where Wake is generally agreed to be a disproportionately powerful mon on Sun, but that Sun with Wake is not a disproportionately powerful team... or even particularly good (hence Wake is ranked B+ over there). This is just an analogy to a different metagame, but I want to highlight that these edge cases do occur (you could also look at Arch and Rain here!).
Let's consider Vlarcheops's team (not throwing shade btw, love your posts): https://pokepast.es/a87162dc94c32a53
- This team is very weak to Melmetal and Ferrothorn, which find easy opportunities against this team (e.g. Alomomola, Ninetales) while simultaneously being basically impossible to switch into (or getting up Spikes).
- DD Dragapult with one boost threatens to sweep the team outright.
- A simple Ting-Lu is also incredibly threatening, especially when combined with a Steel which it usually is regardless
- Kingambit, probably the most common mon in the tier, threatens to trap Lele and proceed to smoke the rest of the team.
- Positioning as a whole looks like a nightmare, between Atales and Lele with the ONLY pivot being an Alomomola weak to hazards while being a team that basically has 0 defensive utility. This is really the main issue.
- I am aware the aim of this team (and psyterrain as a whole) is generally to overwhelm defensive checks, but I think this demonstrates that there is a lot of natural and feasible counterplay to Psyterrain... so much so that I question its merit in the metagame as a whole.
It's important to consider the general weakness of the ladder when evaluating a mon or a team. You can 6-0 most ladder teams with IronPress Zamazenta up to like 1700s because people generally don't know how to build nor play against it (I can include some reqs replays if anyone wants). Does this make it broken? No, IronPress Zamazenta is laughable into balance and very manageable into well built offenses that use mons such as Ghold, Booster Val, or EP Lando to name a few. Ladder is not representative of the metagame pretty much at all... up to an ELO that is certainly not breached when getting reqs most of the time. Hence, I implore most of you to account for this discrepancy when evaluating this mon.
Part of me also wishes the suspect process were different... especially since I did not even start running into this mon until I was around halfway through. I believe a lot of people either form opinions beforehand and stick with them regardless of what happens in practice, or use the mon themselves and naturally steamroll ladder (as any reasonably competent player would with any builder check mon such as Zamazenta or Kingambit) and using that inaccurate experience to judge the mon. You really need to play against this mon to get a feel for its weaknesses instead of just using it yourself, though that also helps.
Deoxys itself adds a speed control option capable of outrunning Pult without an item, the usefulness of which goes without saying. Similarly, it is able to revenge kill Zamazenta, even with Psychic Noise behind a Sub. Deoxys's main home is Hyper Offense which is a struggling archetype right now... it does not at all provide a disproportionate boost to this playstyle and even if it did, the teamstyle as a whole will generally remain weak.
To conclude, the fact that many people who are voting ban don't even think it's broken should be a telltale sign that this mon is fine. In my view, it is simply inertia that drives most of the ban votes which is a little bit upsetting to me but people have the right to vote however they want.
Regardless, I hope this mon is rightfully freed.
Lead Deoxys is definitely not broken. It's a hazard setter that loses HARD to Terapagos, the second best remover in the tier - this alone is pretty terrible. Not only that, it generally gets up rocks + 1 layer of spikes, which really isn't anything unreasonable when you compare it to Sash Hamu for example, which is capable of getting 2 layers + chip on something else, or Sash Lando, which easily gets up rocks and massively chunks/KOs something else with Explosion. Overall, it really is not disproportionately powerful in the context of other hazard leads.
Offensive Deoxys is also nothing extraordinary. I got reqs with this team https://pokepast.es/2256b9d24a2b6373, which wasn't even built to account for Deoxys but naturally does so anyway, such as through Mtar, AV Melm, and Tspikes. Deoxys is a Pokemon that, on paper, has few switch-ins, but in practice, is more than manageable. Its STABs and coverage all have common immunities, and it is so weak that it generally has to get turns exactly right in order to scrape a 2HKO, which gives you a lot of room to maneuver around it in practice. There are a number of issues that make it not broken in the context of this metagame:
1. While it technically has no hard counters on paper, this is not unique. The same can be said about Iron Valiant (Booster Valiant is honestly more threatening than Deoxys), Ogerpon-W, and Gholdengo, and all three of them are fine because what is achievable on paper is not necessarily achievable in practice.
2. The key issue with Deoxys is that its 1v1 matchup spread is actually not great given its inability to score OHKOs without dropping a Z, and hence it does not force that much out without risk, indirectly addressing the issue of lacking hard counters (which honestly should not be criteria to drop a mon in the first place). Deoxys in practice has to get too many turns right to be broken, for a reward that generally amounts to an OHKO and chip on something else, which is perfectly reasonable as a reward for great play.
3. It is so frail that it cannot switch into basically anything. It's forced to run Life Orb or Z, and hence is also incredibly vulnerable to hazard chip, putting it in range of priority such as Thunderclap. Hence, it generally lacks opportunities coming in maybe twice in one game if not already sacked to chip something else.
4. It's really not easy to fit on a team without compromising the team's matchup spread against the metagame, given its complete lack of defensive utility. It's very difficult to cover most threats at least decently well when you have a mon that can't switch into basically anything, and hence Deoxys structures become quite predictable in practice, which gives opponents room for more consistent counterplay against the team as a whole. Even if you believe Deoxys is very strong on a team, the team as a whole may not be too strong even with Deoxys. I will also segue into discussions of Psyterrain here. I believe Psyterrain not only does not break Deoxys, but is also generally bad in this metagame. It is similar to Walking Wake on Sun in CG OU, where Wake is generally agreed to be a disproportionately powerful mon on Sun, but that Sun with Wake is not a disproportionately powerful team... or even particularly good (hence Wake is ranked B+ over there). This is just an analogy to a different metagame, but I want to highlight that these edge cases do occur (you could also look at Arch and Rain here!).
Let's consider Vlarcheops's team (not throwing shade btw, love your posts): https://pokepast.es/a87162dc94c32a53
- This team is very weak to Melmetal and Ferrothorn, which find easy opportunities against this team (e.g. Alomomola, Ninetales) while simultaneously being basically impossible to switch into (or getting up Spikes).
- DD Dragapult with one boost threatens to sweep the team outright.
- A simple Ting-Lu is also incredibly threatening, especially when combined with a Steel which it usually is regardless
- Kingambit, probably the most common mon in the tier, threatens to trap Lele and proceed to smoke the rest of the team.
- Positioning as a whole looks like a nightmare, between Atales and Lele with the ONLY pivot being an Alomomola weak to hazards while being a team that basically has 0 defensive utility. This is really the main issue.
- I am aware the aim of this team (and psyterrain as a whole) is generally to overwhelm defensive checks, but I think this demonstrates that there is a lot of natural and feasible counterplay to Psyterrain... so much so that I question its merit in the metagame as a whole.
It's important to consider the general weakness of the ladder when evaluating a mon or a team. You can 6-0 most ladder teams with IronPress Zamazenta up to like 1700s because people generally don't know how to build nor play against it (I can include some reqs replays if anyone wants). Does this make it broken? No, IronPress Zamazenta is laughable into balance and very manageable into well built offenses that use mons such as Ghold, Booster Val, or EP Lando to name a few. Ladder is not representative of the metagame pretty much at all... up to an ELO that is certainly not breached when getting reqs most of the time. Hence, I implore most of you to account for this discrepancy when evaluating this mon.
Part of me also wishes the suspect process were different... especially since I did not even start running into this mon until I was around halfway through. I believe a lot of people either form opinions beforehand and stick with them regardless of what happens in practice, or use the mon themselves and naturally steamroll ladder (as any reasonably competent player would with any builder check mon such as Zamazenta or Kingambit) and using that inaccurate experience to judge the mon. You really need to play against this mon to get a feel for its weaknesses instead of just using it yourself, though that also helps.
Deoxys itself adds a speed control option capable of outrunning Pult without an item, the usefulness of which goes without saying. Similarly, it is able to revenge kill Zamazenta, even with Psychic Noise behind a Sub. Deoxys's main home is Hyper Offense which is a struggling archetype right now... it does not at all provide a disproportionate boost to this playstyle and even if it did, the teamstyle as a whole will generally remain weak.
To conclude, the fact that many people who are voting ban don't even think it's broken should be a telltale sign that this mon is fine. In my view, it is simply inertia that drives most of the ban votes which is a little bit upsetting to me but people have the right to vote however they want.
Regardless, I hope this mon is rightfully freed.
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Your forgetting that you can use fightium z or a ghost type move for the other psychic types
Honestly I am very much on the fence about deoxys. I might have a more refined opinion by the time I finish reqs but I think the mon will be very underexplored by the time we finish this suspect test.
Hazard sets are my main concern with deoxys, allowing it to get multiple layers of hazards up on anything not terapagos due to taunt and just nuking stuff with psycho boost.
Due to gholdengo existing, I am afraid of a meta in which the only reliable hazard control is terapagos, moltres and maybe treads. I dont think deoxys is what will push hstack over the edge, as it may not even have a place in that archetype since it competes with hsam, a hazard setter which beats moltres.
In theory, the nasty plot set is pretty amazing, as it has quite a lot of breaking potential and its best counters are priority and straight up walling it. Revenge killing with your scarfer is pretty much impossible, unless you consider scarf kartana. In practice I havent had that much success with it, but a wallbreaker which can also revenge kill scarf urshifu is an interesting concept.
Overall, I remain undecided and hopefully reqs will help shape my opinion
Hazard sets are my main concern with deoxys, allowing it to get multiple layers of hazards up on anything not terapagos due to taunt and just nuking stuff with psycho boost.
Due to gholdengo existing, I am afraid of a meta in which the only reliable hazard control is terapagos, moltres and maybe treads. I dont think deoxys is what will push hstack over the edge, as it may not even have a place in that archetype since it competes with hsam, a hazard setter which beats moltres.
In theory, the nasty plot set is pretty amazing, as it has quite a lot of breaking potential and its best counters are priority and straight up walling it. Revenge killing with your scarfer is pretty much impossible, unless you consider scarf kartana. In practice I havent had that much success with it, but a wallbreaker which can also revenge kill scarf urshifu is an interesting concept.
Overall, I remain undecided and hopefully reqs will help shape my opinion
imo we should give deoS the occasion to developp. If it's broken it'll be axed, I mean, two suspects dudn't prevent Tera from getting bnned, I dont see why one would Make DeoS not bannable until the end of day. Deo needs OHKO to work, and honestly it's not the best at doing this job. For the amount of support it needs you'd rzther js go for valiant
Just got reqs last night and can I just say this mon is INCREDIBLY matchup fishy -
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2261302862-cyz4m1gvg4s4siefprl3q0xaegl4hqjpw
Saw this set on the ladder a couple times -
Deoxys-Speed @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psycho Boost/Expanding Force
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
In this game the only way I could've knocked it out was risky predicts and
sand stream, it kinda forces you to run speed control especially on psyspam teams where priority isnt an option
I don't personally think it's broken however, there's limited counter-play on psyspam teams its almost like you're almost forced to run scarfers, preserve booster energy mons, or slap some specially defensive mons on a team.
I am a bit undecided on my vote, and I think i'll play some games and do further testing to see where I land in this debate
Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2261302862-cyz4m1gvg4s4siefprl3q0xaegl4hqjpw
Saw this set on the ladder a couple times -
Deoxys-Speed @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psycho Boost/Expanding Force
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
In this game the only way I could've knocked it out was risky predicts and
sand stream, it kinda forces you to run speed control especially on psyspam teams where priority isnt an optionI don't personally think it's broken however, there's limited counter-play on psyspam teams its almost like you're almost forced to run scarfers, preserve booster energy mons, or slap some specially defensive mons on a team.
I am a bit undecided on my vote, and I think i'll play some games and do further testing to see where I land in this debate
Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents
I’m personally not entirely sure on what side I’m on for this suspect and I probably won’t vote in it unless someone makes a crazy good point.
I see quite a few of the pro ban side’s points. Fightium Z and/or Nasty Plot is a great late game cleaner when on psychic terrain. Plus expanding force on psychic terrain hits like a truck. In addition to its offensive sets having Magic Coat makes it an insane HO lead.
On the other hand when it’s not on psychic terrain or an HO lead it’s not very good. It’s a pretty bad cleaner when not on psychic terrain it doesn’t hit too hard and something like an av iron crown can take a hit. As well gambit sucker punch can ko it before it can use Fightium Z.
Overall I am leaning ban but I really wouldn’t care if it wasn’t. Also I’ve seen other people say this and I’m gonna say it again, I wish Moon was suspected first. With Moon in the tier Deo-S would be completely fine. I do understand why Deo-S was suspected first as it was rated higher on the survey.
Edit: Forgot to mention how matchup fishy Deo-S can be. It creates a bad experience for both players at different times.
I see quite a few of the pro ban side’s points. Fightium Z and/or Nasty Plot is a great late game cleaner when on psychic terrain. Plus expanding force on psychic terrain hits like a truck. In addition to its offensive sets having Magic Coat makes it an insane HO lead.
On the other hand when it’s not on psychic terrain or an HO lead it’s not very good. It’s a pretty bad cleaner when not on psychic terrain it doesn’t hit too hard and something like an av iron crown can take a hit. As well gambit sucker punch can ko it before it can use Fightium Z.
Overall I am leaning ban but I really wouldn’t care if it wasn’t. Also I’ve seen other people say this and I’m gonna say it again, I wish Moon was suspected first. With Moon in the tier Deo-S would be completely fine. I do understand why Deo-S was suspected first as it was rated higher on the survey.
Edit: Forgot to mention how matchup fishy Deo-S can be. It creates a bad experience for both players at different times.
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deoxys-speed I think that despite having good checks like kingambit, Samurott-Hisui and gholdengo to give some examples I feel that the speed he brings and the teams that can be built around him is worth taking into consideration, one of his best teammates comes to be tapu lele+ the speed that deoxys brings allows you to configure at least 1 nasty plost or attack thanks to the terrain and Lorb/Specs in between, that made me make a team
https://pokepast.es/21e001403a2b3e6b
I can say that it is quite powerful and ambitious to use deoxys specs over Lorb and I realized it a little late, that's why I opted for a Lorb variant but this time mixed for fear of miss focus blast against kingambit (something that happened to me many times)
https://pokepast.es/d5d3a9af2b8c73b3
Although it is quite fun to use, I saw quite a few problems, one of them samurott-hisui being a huge headache, another would be Wogerpon, leaving alomomola useless, kingambit, although it is another headache, I see it as more controllable thanks to the field and having coverage to him (anyway AV kingambit+pursuit is something complicated to deal with) one of the reasons why I chose mixed deoxys
To all this I see that there are quite solid threats but that they lose some presence against certain teams, I could say that it is the case of mega metagross (clearly much smaller) because it could abuse all the terrain while deoxys could be said to only abuse the psychic terrain, I'm doing the suspect and at the moment I think that letting him free is not as crazy as it seems
https://pokepast.es/21e001403a2b3e6b
I can say that it is quite powerful and ambitious to use deoxys specs over Lorb and I realized it a little late, that's why I opted for a Lorb variant but this time mixed for fear of miss focus blast against kingambit (something that happened to me many times)
https://pokepast.es/d5d3a9af2b8c73b3
Although it is quite fun to use, I saw quite a few problems, one of them samurott-hisui being a huge headache, another would be Wogerpon, leaving alomomola useless, kingambit, although it is another headache, I see it as more controllable thanks to the field and having coverage to him (anyway AV kingambit+pursuit is something complicated to deal with) one of the reasons why I chose mixed deoxys
To all this I see that there are quite solid threats but that they lose some presence against certain teams, I could say that it is the case of mega metagross (clearly much smaller) because it could abuse all the terrain while deoxys could be said to only abuse the psychic terrain, I'm doing the suspect and at the moment I think that letting him free is not as crazy as it seems
I'm not sure what I'm going to vote (barely seeing it on ladder during my suspect run didn't really help lol) but right now I'm leaning towards keeping it banned. I don't see what it really adds to the tier and I feel that long term all it will really do is significantly limit the number of viable speed control options. I also feel that the Z nasty plot sets are quite unexplored, and with tapu lele's terrain to boost its power and block priority makes the nasty plot sets (potentially) problematic. Idk tho and if you want to convince me to vote unban then you probably could lol.
right now speed control is scarfers with 80 Speed or more and regieleki. With DeoS unbanned it would be A bit less scarfers (with 104 speed or more) and still regieleki. but 104 outspeed Timid DeoS and it was established that only Modest was menacing as a nasty plot sweeper which is understandable because 95 Spa is paper. Modest gets to 459 Speed which is speed tied by 90 Base Scarfed and outsped by (notably Scarf Lando) Base 91 Scarf. So we have a special attacker that will either not KO Your scarfer unless it's frail (I'd say, less than a 85/75 Bulk for example) or your scarfer will outspeed it if it is not a slow scarfer, who are bad as speed control options anyways. So it Does limit speed control, but barely. switching from base 80 to base 90 eliminates Scarf Ghol, scarf Hamurott and speed booster tusk. I'd understand why not unbanning can be chose then, for it forces certain scarfers, but really your team js doesn't have to be frail and switching around generally prevents Z from nuking your counter, if it does anyways. Imo we can unban it, but I understand tht, being less charismatic or new that the BIG 3 (Gholdengo got stole its spot in S VR by Lando but whatever it's in the BIG 3) might make people not want to have it as a dominant force in the Meta. Terrain implies that either you run No-Item lele or You have roughly 3 Expands, very limited imo, not worth Ubers.
Now onto the question of what it adds to the tier, I feel like it brings a Zama Killer and a Late Game cleaner that gets bodied by sucker punch.
ok i don't reject anything i said here besides melmetal sometimes but holy this mon is so fun to use i'm done w/ finals so once i get reqs i'm voting DNB absolutely peak pokemon design
Tbh this mon's presence is really not that big so I'm not as invested in this suspect as I would for something like moon. I think it's ultimately a net positive though since it doesnt rly limit but rather expands the number of viable speed control options, as it doesnt rly outclass any other fast mons such as pult and zama which do different things. In fact, contesting pult's speed monopoly is a pretty good and healthy attribute imo.
I also really dont think psyterrain teams are that good (though deo is probably at its strongest there?) but if you have some successful team with it that sufficiently covers the metagame id love to see it.
As for Darkrai, imo the difference is that people were using specs sets during its suspect instead of np z, while with deo we have gone straight to np z and im not sure if theres any more exploration that can really be done. I've seen and used sub np z fight, sub np z psychic, life orb, 3 atk np z and none of them feel overbearing imo.
Yeah, I get that. As I said in my post I kind of barely saw it so my thoughts were purely initial impressions. Also not to open this can of worms, but please do not let roaring moon back, even without tera that thing is a war crime.
what's the point of adding a new life in a world with 8 Billion lives?
What does this even mean? The idea that Deo-S is just a dice roll is flawed yes but what does this have to do with literally anything?
To stay somewhat on topic I don’t understand this argument. Deo-S does have a lot of problems but being a coin flip isn’t really one of them. The two examples I can think of are:
1. Is it gonna magic coat?
2. Is it gonna Fightium Z?
Both of these aren’t really too big of a deal. The magic coat example only occurs on HO vs HO lead matchup and the second example is more of a z-move issue not a Deo-S issue. If anyone can clarify how Deo-S is a coin flip mon that would be greatly appreciated. I’m probably missing something here.
the fact were honestly sitting here trying to debate if a mono psychic type with less than 100 spa and z focus blast for coverage is broken is actually absurd. This mon doesnt break any defensive piece that cant already be broken by mew alakazam azelf etc. the only difference this mon has is speed of which its not even the fastest thing in the meta with plenty of stuff like eleki, booster val, scarf kart, booster treads, hawlucha, rain swampert, booster moth etc outrunning it. Good teams will have defensive checks to plot deoxys anyways since they need them already for lele which is a way better z fight user and way more self sufficient.
When this thing is unbanned not only will it see next to no real usage in tours or high level gameplay but it will probably fall to UU when new toy syndrome on the ladder wears off.
When this thing is unbanned not only will it see next to no real usage in tours or high level gameplay but it will probably fall to UU when new toy syndrome on the ladder wears off.
If you could send the replays from your suspect test run, I think it would really seal the deal as far as your post is concerned.
Currently sitting at 2942 COIL, so close to qualifying for voting and would briefly like to drop my thoughts on Deo-S. I'll be frank in saying that I don't think I've encountered this Mon more than twice out of a total of 47 games. And it doesn't even seem that strong to me on paper. Modest may be able to be somewhat powerful but due to things like scarf Urshifu / other stuff sitting around the 100 speed benchmark (Eg: Lele) running around in the tier, I think running timid is important. Obviously this is also true if you're choosing to run Deo-S as a lead on HO, since you want to be able to taunt other lead Deo-S before they can taunt you, but we'll get to that set in a little bit.
In any case, if you have to run timid, and your special attack stat is a pretty pitiful 95, your damage output is nothing to write home about, even if Deo-S is carrying a life orb, expert belt, or the like. Further, even if you do get to run modest, as many other people have pointed out, Deo-S just doesn't have the raw power to be landing OHKOs even with something with as high of a base power as STAB expanding force in psychic terrain. So much for Deo-S having an overbearing offensive presence.
As an aside, quite a few people have also suggested that Kingambit and Tyranitar really sit on Deo-S, and in this respect I'd like to disagree, because I think you should always be running superpower on this guy. Deo-S doesn't have particularly good bulk and running a defence or special defence hindering nature likely isn't going to matter too much. On the contrary, you can catch a Kingambit or Tyranitar coming in to mindlessly click pursuit on you with a life orb boosted superpower without having to rely on the shakily accurate focus blast or expend your Z move / lock in Deo-S as your Z slot (It should also be noted that Tyranitar has the innate sand special defence buff, while Kingambit is commonly running AV at the moment, so focus blast is in any case a weaker option for hitting these two).
0 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 395-468 (115.8 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 369-437 (108.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Realistically, then, I think an all-out attacker set is the most promising pitch for an offensive Deo-S, and, while I haven't used it myself, I can't help but feel as though NP is incredibly mid (With psychic terrain already seeming to me to be somewhat of a shaky playstyle, even accounting for the fact that Lele is a great terrain setter - where, to my mind, NP is only a realistic option on psychic terrain). Returning, then, to lead Deo-S, I don't think that it's even slightly overbearing. You have a pretty terrible match-up into something like lead Samurott-Hisui, which you get no value out of taunting (And can't even typically hit), and which can just freely click ceaseless edge on you. Lead Diancie-Mega is also a pretty awful experience for Deo-S; you can't even set anything up on it, let alone taunt it (Unless you are a screen-setting variant, which may admittedly have some more merit).
So, there are some common lead Pokémon which Deo-S either can't taunt or doesn't get any value out of taunting, and I really can't see what Deo-S brings to the table in the lead metagame other than being able to taunt before anything else (Other than the not-so-common Grimmsnarl). It doesn't even have a momentum move like explosion or U-turn, unless you count teleport, but to run teleport would seem to contradict the very reason why you're running lead Deo-S in the first place - so you're better off running something like Azelf or offensive Lando-T. So much for the argument that Deo-S is a broken enabler on HO.
That's it for my short analysis! Hopefully it doesn't get torn apart too badly.
Edit: Just qualified, and it should be pretty clear what I'm voting. I just recycled the same team that I used for the Gouging Fire suspect, just as good in this meta (Arguably more so because of mindlessly clicking pursuit being an even more common trap to fall into versus this Lati now).
https://pokepast.es/e24f64fb00212c75
In any case, if you have to run timid, and your special attack stat is a pretty pitiful 95, your damage output is nothing to write home about, even if Deo-S is carrying a life orb, expert belt, or the like. Further, even if you do get to run modest, as many other people have pointed out, Deo-S just doesn't have the raw power to be landing OHKOs even with something with as high of a base power as STAB expanding force in psychic terrain. So much for Deo-S having an overbearing offensive presence.
As an aside, quite a few people have also suggested that Kingambit and Tyranitar really sit on Deo-S, and in this respect I'd like to disagree, because I think you should always be running superpower on this guy. Deo-S doesn't have particularly good bulk and running a defence or special defence hindering nature likely isn't going to matter too much. On the contrary, you can catch a Kingambit or Tyranitar coming in to mindlessly click pursuit on you with a life orb boosted superpower without having to rely on the shakily accurate focus blast or expend your Z move / lock in Deo-S as your Z slot (It should also be noted that Tyranitar has the innate sand special defence buff, while Kingambit is commonly running AV at the moment, so focus blast is in any case a weaker option for hitting these two).
0 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 395-468 (115.8 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 369-437 (108.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Realistically, then, I think an all-out attacker set is the most promising pitch for an offensive Deo-S, and, while I haven't used it myself, I can't help but feel as though NP is incredibly mid (With psychic terrain already seeming to me to be somewhat of a shaky playstyle, even accounting for the fact that Lele is a great terrain setter - where, to my mind, NP is only a realistic option on psychic terrain). Returning, then, to lead Deo-S, I don't think that it's even slightly overbearing. You have a pretty terrible match-up into something like lead Samurott-Hisui, which you get no value out of taunting (And can't even typically hit), and which can just freely click ceaseless edge on you. Lead Diancie-Mega is also a pretty awful experience for Deo-S; you can't even set anything up on it, let alone taunt it (Unless you are a screen-setting variant, which may admittedly have some more merit).
So, there are some common lead Pokémon which Deo-S either can't taunt or doesn't get any value out of taunting, and I really can't see what Deo-S brings to the table in the lead metagame other than being able to taunt before anything else (Other than the not-so-common Grimmsnarl). It doesn't even have a momentum move like explosion or U-turn, unless you count teleport, but to run teleport would seem to contradict the very reason why you're running lead Deo-S in the first place - so you're better off running something like Azelf or offensive Lando-T. So much for the argument that Deo-S is a broken enabler on HO.
That's it for my short analysis! Hopefully it doesn't get torn apart too badly.
Edit: Just qualified, and it should be pretty clear what I'm voting. I just recycled the same team that I used for the Gouging Fire suspect, just as good in this meta (Arguably more so because of mindlessly clicking pursuit being an even more common trap to fall into versus this Lati now).
https://pokepast.es/e24f64fb00212c75
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- Status