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Please discuss your opinions on Tera itself because you essentially just made a 7 paragraph post to essentially say that you will be voting DNB out of spite. Is the concept of a 3rd suspect test so outright disgusting to anti-ban voters that they would rather target the council who run the tier instead of just straight up talking about the mechanic itself? Anyone else who pulled this card used it as a supporting argument not the entire fucking thing. We know for a fact that Ryuji and Lameflame think Tera is balanced, what about you? Is this just meant to degrade the trust in council only or is there some actual love for Tera here? Dying to know.
Do not treat this as a council member responding as quick research will show that I am NOT a council member. But to say that council is pushing an agenda is idk...is trying to improve the health of a tier by targeting a widely controversial part of it agenda pushing? Don't fucking say that Tera isn't controversial or that a vast majority of voters love Tera because you are blatantly lying to yourself if you think this. A massive part of the community hates tera = it was suspect tested, cannot be simpler in justification. If you want to bitch about our right to have the suspect test again to begin with go bitch about it here or something. Tired of seeing this argument be made, worse so when it's the only argument in a post.
The whole point of a suspect is to let the community decide on something. If the council was actually “corrupt” and wanted tera banned cuz of their agenda they would just qb it lmao. Stop insulting the council for letting the community decide on a very obviously very contentious and controversial mechanic, that has been close to getting banned in previous suspects. Also if you actually read the suspect post you’d see the survey results backing up why tera is being suspected.
i'm not the most familiar person in the world with natdex as a tier. i come from a primarily ou background and only started playing for this suspect, so my opinion might not be as informed as some other folks' here, but i got reqs so i feel obligated to explain my vote—as everyone should, so we can all have a better understanding of each other
i didn't see tera doing anything gross or icky when i was laddering. i witnessed a lot of ho, but i also saw a healthy amount of bo, balance, and stall—in fact, i got my reqs with a stall team, and playing stall actually feels good in this meta, as opposed to ou where it just feels like you're getting fucked every match and not in a fun way. i never felt cheated or out of control of the situation because of tera, and i never felt like i was cheating or being dishonest by clicking it. it prevented me from being farmed by waterpon more often than anything else. i'm not seeing any particular negative effects of tera in builder, in battle, or on meta trends, and i'm sure that most of the negative effects that people with more experience than me are seeing can be explained by certain problematic mons. all in all, this would be a pretty easy dnb from me. not at all surprising, since i'm also a staunch tera supporter in the non-natdex tiers, and a lot of the arguments in the thread are the same arguments that have been bandied about since day one of the gen and they haven't convinced me
…so why am i voting ban?
(that's right baby, bet you weren't expecting that plot twist. shyamalan could never)
well, a lot of it has to do with the simple fact that this is the third suspect test of the mechanic, after two suspects ending in very close dnb votes. two suspect tests of the same thing is in and of itself an indication of a problem—the community looked this thing over, decided it was worth keeping or that they needed more time to decide, and then later with more experience and more information they decided it was still enough of a problem to suspect a second time. but three suspects? that indicates a full-blown crisis. it means that the community has repeatedly been dissatisfied enough with the mechanic to put it on the chopping block. something is terribly, terribly wrong according to the collective feelings of the playerbase—a playerbase that knows more about this meta than i, a newcomer, possibly could. now, it can be argued that each suspect took place in a radically different metagame, but the arguments for and against tera have been virtually unchanged from the first and second suspects, so i don't think the shifts in the meta itself have really altered how people view tera as a mechanic
i'd also like to note here that this is natdex, so we have to think about more than just this current gen when we make this decision. usually it's against my self-imposed rules to consider the effects of bans or dnbs in the long term because the future is inherently unpredictable, especially across generational lines. but in the case of natdex, we know for a fact that tera, if not banned, will carry over into gen 10, and gen 11, and gen 12, and so on forever, unless the policy of keeping every generational mechanic changes, and it will have to stack with whatever generational mechanics they add in the future too. so we have to think to ourselves, will tera be tolerable in those gens, when the playerbase has barely tolerated it in this one?
as an aside, i personally don't like the policy of carrying over generational mechanics because in the long term it will inevitably produce a nightmarish frankenmeta full of extremely lopsided interactions that were never designed to happen. some would argue that this is already happening, or that this is an inherent part of natdex, but i think that the more mechanics get stuffed into this meta the worse things are going to get. my ideal form of natdex would only have megas implemented, not tera or dynamax or z-moves or whatever wacky things they introduce in future gens (the logic being that megas are shown to be a thing in multiple regions and across multiple gens, while the other mechanics are region-locked and gen-locked both canonically and mechanically), but i could make peace with leaving megas behind too. i believe that at the end of this gen or the beginning of the next, natdex should have a serious discussion about the future of generational mechanics, and i think two gens in a row having their mechanics banned would probably leave people more open to having that discussion
(edit: i've been informed that natdex policy is different than what i thought it was and generational mechanics that don't involve some sort of transferable item don't get carried over. even though my concerns about this were unfounded, this doesn't change my position on what to do about tera in this tier)
lastly, i have to admit that this is partially out of sheer curiosity for what a gen 9 meta might look like without tera, and whether it would be easier or harder to balance. natdex is radically different from vanilla ou, but if it ends up being way better after a tera ban, i and other pro-tera folks might have to rethink our stance about tera in the main tiers. probably not, considering that the formats are different, but fuck it, maybe i just wanna see what terapagos looks like without its bullshit form. don't judge me
so i know it's very uncharacteristic of me to make a decision this way instead of basing it on just pure analysis of the tier as it is, and some people might pooh-pooh at the points i make here, but ultimately i think it's warranted to look at natdex in a larger scope. i'm not going to tell anyone else how to approach this tier, or even saying that my own approach is the correct way to be going about things, but looking at it that way has convinced me to vote BAN on tera
I think my question is being misrepresented, which means I probably could have phrased my post better. I'm asking, why is tera being tested FIRST when there are clearly other issues with the tier. Z bolt is great and it doesn't tera. Ogerpon was voted just as highly in the survey as tera and is its biggest abuser, why wasn't this tested first, then we could see if there was as strong a problem with tera.
I obviously understand that tera is contentious and hated by many. I said that less people are vocal about their support of tera because it could literally be seen in the last suspect.
I am aware that I didn't make any arguments in support of tera, which is why I said I'm happy to discuss my thoughts on tera. I'll do that later today
Edit: this is likely the only post I'll make about this topic, I don't want to turn the thread into this. I really just want to hear the reasoning behind the council's decision as well as express why I disagree
This is honestly the most out of touch suspect test I've ever seen and the council will be in for a rude awakening when for the THIRD TIME, tera will not be banned. Because despite already being shown this twice, you don't understand that people do not think the same way as you. You don't speak for all players. You are clearly pushing an agenda and the community has already spoken twice.
I voted to resuspect tera in large part due to constant community outcry to get it banned, so it really was not a council being out of touch moment, if anything this is us hearing out the general playerbase. I voted in accordance to what I believe to be best for the future of the tier, don't really know what "agenda" you think I have. I have read all of the reasonable posts arguing for tera dnb and though I understand and to some extent even agree with their points, I still believe banning tera to be best for the tier. And this isn't just blindly dismissing them as false, I just truly think the ban arguments hold more weight.
I respect most of the people on the council as players and a few of you I'd consider friends, but what do you think that people think when you suspect something for a third time. I'd love to know the reasons of those of who you were opposed to this test, and the reasons of those of you in support, other than that you just don't like it. Tera will (probably) not be banned because the people who enjoy tera don't talk to you and aren't part of your group.
I truly don't know what thread you have been reading but there are a lot of "people that we talk to" that don't want tera banned, even Lameflame, who is part of the council, has voiced his opinion in favor of tera.
I am genuinely asking the council members who pushed for this test, why do you think people's opinions have changed? And if it's because of the player enjoyment part of the survey, why do you think that tera is the issue? In the last tera suspect, the survey's tera score was 7.09. Surely tera was banned after seeing this result right? No, it wasn't, because, as we're gonna learn for the third time, people who are in support of tera clearly aren't as vocal as those who are. And why would they be? Since the last survey, the score has gone down, and still it's being suspected again? Those who are happy with the status quo are obviously not gonna make their opinions as known as those who want change. Nobody in support of tera is gonna say, "oh man I'm so glad we have tera this is such a fun and engaging mechanic," but dissenters will obviously talk about their problems with it.
1. They haven't really changed, tera has always been and continues to be an extremely controversial and complained about topic.
2. Both the first and second suspects had significant outside factors that ultimately decided the vote. Tera score being marginally lower can just be chalked up to natural variation or people that don't want tera to be resuspected due to not wanting anything to get suspected three times.
Meanwhile, Ogerpon has a similar satisfaction score, with people's voting clearly leaning towards it being a problem. So, why no Ogerpon test? Why was there not even a question about tera blast on the survey, despite HO being talked about as the biggest issue with tera? If tera is the issue, why not get rid of its biggest abuser first, or the move making it difficult to play around on HO, then see what the metagame looks like? Bolt's z dragon set (that isn't able to tera) is one of the best in the meta, doesn't that alone show there are other issues? These are just a few examples of the issues I see that are far greater than rehashing the same test that has already failed. How can this not be viewed as the council straight up just not liking tera and wanting it gone?
Ogerpon-W has already survived a suspect that was extremely recent, we can't suspect it again so soon without a large amount of metagame changes between both tests, which has simply not happened. Additionally, Ogerpon-W is not the most pressing issue, which is reflected in its lower survey score when compared to tera. Ogerpon-W is also not the biggest abuser of tera currently, that title goes to Kyurem. Mentioning Raging Bolt is frankly ridiculous, that pokemon has received next to no complaints. Regarding a Tera Blast ban, that would only affect Kyurem in any meaningful way, and I'm including previously banned pokemon too. Its simply not been an issue thus far when other pokemon use it, and is consequently a bandage solution at best, completely ineffective at worst.
Council, please explain this discrepancy to me. Tell me how this makes any sense. Will there be a quickban after it's not banned for the THIRD time, because all of you are dissatisfied with the answer? How many times will you force the community to fight to keep something they've already showed you they want - TWICE? In my opinion, this isn't like the retest of Cinderace in gen 8, where it was tested and stayed legal, then the bulk up z double edge started becoming a thing then it was retested and banned. Why are you trying to completely change the meta by taking away a generational mechanic two years after the generation started?
First of all we reached a simple majority in both of the votes so a majority of the community does indeed dislike tera. If you want a concrete development regarding tera take Zamazenta for example. It being banned, which was exclusively due to tera, Gouging Fire became even more problematic than before, while both Kyurem and Dragonite rose to become extremely controversial and broken pokemon. I am trying to change the meta because it is frankly shit, and it has been shit since the beginning. I have absolutely no qualms with nuking a generational mechanic if it results in an improved tier, and the "oh its the generational mechanic" argument is simply nonsensical. It holds the same weight and logic as asking "Why did you ban Cinderace in generation 8? It's a starter and its two years into the metagame."
I'd also like to know the next steps the council has planned, in both cases of if the suspect passes or not. Again, I respect people on the council and have friends on it. However, I heavily question this decision and I'm sure others do too.
We have briefly discussed this, though I would like to stress that nothing is set in stone, and have concluded that should tera remain, we will likely hold a survey, featuring a few previously banned pokemon, to see what to unban. Aditionaly, a suspect for Kyurem and a resuspect for Ogerpon-W are likely to also happen. Regarding the plan going forward in the event that tera is banned, the likeliest outcome is that the council will hold a slate to determine which pokemon to keep banned, which to quickdrop, and which to suspect down,
To voters: DO NOT BE AFRAID of people saying bullshit like "I won't play this tier if tera stays" and "this and that would be unbanned if tera was gone." Do not let them fearmonger you. If they don't like it they can go play something else. Listen to real arguments. "Tera is ruining the tier" and "I don't like it because it's too annoying to predict" is not a real argument. On the other hand, someone saying "I like tera because it makes X mon good and I like X mon" is also not a real argument. There are very good posts in this thread for both sides. Vote for what you think is best, don't let ANYONE guilt trip you.
Saying pokemon such as Kingambit, Gholdengo and Zamazenta will return is tera is banned isn't "fearmongering", "guilt tripping" or "bullshit", its simply the likeliest outcome and a major pro ban argument. You really should calmly read the pro ban posts because nobody is doing any of the stuff you claim, we are just presenting and defending our arguments.
i'd also like to note here that this is natdex, so we have to think about more than just this current gen when we make this decision. usually it's against my self-imposed rules to consider the effects of bans or dnbs in the long term because the future is inherently unpredictable, especially across generational lines. but in the case of natdex, we know for a fact that tera, if not banned, will carry over into gen 10, and gen 11, and gen 12, and so on forever, unless the policy of keeping every generational mechanic changes, and it will have to stack with whatever generational mechanics they add in the future too. so we have to think to ourselves, will tera be tolerable in those gens, when the playerbase has barely tolerated it in this one?
as an aside, i personally don't like the policy of carrying over generational mechanics because in the long term it will inevitably produce a nightmarish frankenmeta full of extremely lopsided interactions that were never designed to happen. some would argue that this is already happening, or that this is an inherent part of natdex, but i think that the more mechanics get stuffed into this meta the worse things are going to get. my ideal form of natdex would only have megas implemented, not tera or dynamax or z-moves or whatever wacky things they introduce in future gens (the logic being that megas are shown to be a thing in multiple regions and across multiple gens, while the other mechanics are region-locked and gen-locked both canonically and mechanically), but i could make peace with leaving megas behind too. i believe that at the end of this gen or the beginning of the next, natdex should have a serious discussion about the future of generational mechanics, and i think two gens in a row having their mechanics banned would probably leave people more open to having that discussion
Thanks for adding to the discussion. Just for clarification purposes: Tera will not be legal in Gen 10 based on the current definition of National Dex as discussed in the most recent policy review thread, which you can read here. Megas and Z-moves are allowed in National Dex because the individual items that permit their use are transferrable, which the Tera Orb would not be going into Gen 10. This is also why Dynamax was disallowed going into this generation.
If anything, the only future implications of this suspect result would be if major tours such as NDPL or NDWC chose to include SV ND in the lineup as a legacy meta, and therefore this suspect would determine whether Tera is legal for those specific games.
I think my question is being misrepresented, which means I probably could have phrased my post better. I'm asking, why is tera being tested FIRST when there are clearly other issues with the tier. Z bolt is great and it doesn't tera. Ogerpon was voted just as highly in the survey as tera and is its biggest abuser, why wasn't this tested first, then we could see if there was as strong a problem with tera.
I obviously understand that tera is contentious and hated by many. I said that less people are vocal about their support of tera because it could literally be seen in the last suspect.
I am aware that I didn't make any arguments in support of tera, which is why I said I'm happy to discuss my thoughts on tera. I'll do that later today
Edit: this is likely the only post I'll make about this topic, I don't want to turn the thread into this. I really just want to hear the reasoning behind the council's decision as well as express why I disagree
Cant really speak for “council” as a whole since it’s 6 other people with different opinions, but Tera scored about 0.25 higher than Ogerpon (Tera was ~3.5/5.0 instead of a 3.39 due to some math technicality that was pointed out, my mistake there). It makes sense to suspect the higher scoring object first, especially when there has been more general community sentiment directed towards Tera than Ogerpon.
A large part of the reason that Ogerpon and Kyurem (the two mons considered problematic by most rn) are as contentious as they are is literally due to their ability to abuse Tera anyways, I dont really think it supports your point to bring Ogerpon up as an example of another problem the tier has when it is exacerbated by its lethal ability to use Tera to destroy otherwise checks.
As a sidenote, Z Bolt has lost a decent bit of popularity at the higher levels in favor of Booster Energy on CM sets literally due to how much harder it is to deal with Tera Raging Bolt instead of one that you can KO with Earthquake/Moonblast on a fairly consistent basis.
I think, personally, that a 3rd suspect was warranted due to the shifts in meta from the DLC that differentiate this from the previous 2, and dissatisfaction with the tiers state despite continued tiering for the past 1.5y. Council has no underlying hatred for Tera, there was quite literally 2/7 who voted against it and one of them, Lameflame, made a great post that showcases the DNB side.
There’s really not much else to it than that, we are just players trying to enjoy the game the same as anyone else, and a supermajority of us believed that a 3rd suspect on Tera was warranted! I implore you to vote for whatever you believe is best for the future- we just wanted to give people the ability to once and for all.
Thanks for adding to the discussion. Just for clarification purposes: Tera will not be legal in Gen 10 based on the current definition of National Dex as discussed in the most recent policy review thread, which you can read here. Megas and Z-moves are allowed in National Dex because the individual items that permit their use are transferrable, which the Tera Orb would not be going into Gen 10. This is also why Dynamax was disallowed going into this generation.
If anything, the only future implications of this suspect result would be if major tours such as NDPL or NDWC chose to include SV ND in the lineup as a legacy meta, and therefore this suspect would determine whether Tera is legal for those specific games.
thanks for clarifying, i didn't know that. i'm glad that there's already policy in place to prevent mechanic-stacking so my fears about that are unfounded. probably should have read up on that before making the post. i don't think this new information will change my vote, though
Hope everyone enjoyed their suspect run
Above all else, remember to have fun :{D
The opposition attacked on all sides with great strength and fierceness...
The Tera-supporting community and the Tera Titans, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large tracts of Smogon and many old and famous tiers it is home to have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Iron Fist, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in the forums & on the ladder. We shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our tier, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this tier were subjugated and left starving, then our friends beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the will of the people & God, will carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the Tera Titans, with all our power and might, will step forth to the rescue and the liberation of SV NatDex OU!!
Fellow Titans, lend us your strength & help us protect the values we hold dear.
The magic of competitive Pokemon, & in Gen 9 especially with Tera, which added a whole new layer of skill & competitiveness. It rewards meta knowledge & puts resource management & risk management in the spotlight. A meta where each & every game has me on the edge of my seat & made me fall in love with competitive singles Pokemon all over again :{D
On a bit more serious note; I don't know what the end result will be, but whatever it is, I wanna say that I've really enjoyed these past two years of SV NDOU.
We may all have different views, ideas & philosophies on Terastallization & how the game should be viewed & played, but I'm glad we can all discuss, play & have fun doing something we all love & enjoy. Whatever the result ends up being, remember to be kind to your fellow players & peers :{D
I wanna thank everyone who's been along for the ride for making it a fun & exciting experience :{D
Not going to make a super long post (she said before writing like 5 paragraphs), since I feel that most of my opinions have already been echoed by people who have worded it much better than I ever could have. Long story short I'm voting ban. I agree with Hidin's points that Tera makes tiering a nightmare for the tier, and by banning it we can free pokemon that will no longer be broken.
I think the best way to evaluate tera is not to look at from a game-to-game basis, since that's all circumstantial, and therefore hard to base an opinion around. The best way to look at it is by investigating general trends and tour data. I'm not going to do some deep analysis as it'd mostly echo the perspectives given in omarsgarciav's and Moyashi's posts (both of which are definitely worth reading by the way). I do still think the best argument I've seen for tera's ban is "How does National Dex as a tier move on if it stays?". For lack of a better term it feels like we've been backed into a corner by our tiering. I'm still of the opinion that using broken checks broken as a metric to keep a pokemon in a tier is poor form, but also deciding if a suspect was "correct" is not something universal.
The other thing that's been rubbing me the wrong way lately is the "Fun" argument. To me it feels like a cop-out for people who want to ban tera (no hate from here, you're not required to defend every opinion you have, but I digress). The thing that I feel they always miss is though, what about the pokemon that are very likely to get freed by a tera ban? Kingambit was and still is one of my favorite pokemon in the tier, especially the really cool AV set. Zamazenta is a very versatile mon, Z-Howl sets are a cool wincon, band is great speed control and IDBP is a great anti-ho tool for balance teams. Terapagos is a cool spinner option, etc etc. It's not like we're just losing tera and that's it, we're also getting some new old toys to play around with as well.
This may be slightly surprising as I'm pretty firmly in the pro-ban camp, but I do agree that Tera doesn't actually hurt skill expression that much. While I will not deny that Tera can definitely pull games out of nowhere with incredibly odd choices, in my mind that's no different from running wild and out there sets, instead of more conventional options. LameFlame's post is very well thought out, and while I do disagree with some of his points, it's a great addition to the conversation regardless. Complaints about prior tiering however, mainly in regards to Zamazenta's suspect are falling on deaf ears to me, as if the only thing keeping Darkrai in the tier is a pokemon that got banned via suspect, then Darkrai probably shouldn't have been in the tier in the first place.
While ultimately I can see merits to pro-ban player's points, I'll still be voting ban because this tier needs a shakeup. It's been getting increasingly stale, especially in the past month just in personal experience, not even counting the plummeting survey scores. If tera stays that sucks but I'll live. If you want to vote DNB you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I won't deny that some people in the ban camp are rather annoying. However though, if you're still not convinced or are still sitting on the fence, I'd highly advise thinking about what Tera staying would do for the tier, versus banning it and freeing Kingambit and Co. If Tera is banned and the tier is worse for it, that sucks, I was wrong, but at the end of the day I'll still play National Dex, and I hope other people do the same.
TL;DR: im not reducing my yap for you, read the damn post
And hey, if you disagree with me, great! That's what the thread is for, feel free to reply and I'll be down to talk more about my opinions on the tier, homework willing. (as long as you're here to debate, not argue)
My point wasn't that banning tera would necessarily make stall better (although it probably would slightly as tera is more often a surprise/offensive mechanic than a defensive one). It was more so that I actually dont think stall or HO are really running so rampant that we should ban tera based of this (which I saw some people suggest). I actually enjoy the current tier for the most part, and whilst I agree there are definitely issues I'm not sure that banning tera is the way to go.
I guess the main thing is for me, I really did not enjoy the metagame with gambit and gholdengho in particular. To me it wasn't even tera that was the main issue with these mons but in my opinion they were broken by themselves. I'm personally not so firmly DNB that I am going to spend huge amounts of time trying to convince people that DNB is right because I could be wrong and banning tera could be what the metagame needs. I would be open to trialling a ND tera banned metagame because for me at least i have never played without tera in gen 9 so I'm not sure if it would be good. If we ban tera and it makes the metagame worse even after a while of stabilising, what would the recourse be? Would we do another suspect on tera?
My point wasn't that banning tera would necessarily make stall better (although it probably would slightly as tera is more often a surprise/offensive mechanic than a defensive one). It was more so that I actually dont think stall or HO are really running so rampant that we should ban tera based of this (which I saw some people suggest). I actually enjoy the current tier for the most part, and whilst I agree there are definitely issues I'm not sure that banning tera is the way to go.
I guess the main thing is for me, I really did not enjoy the metagame with gambit and gholdengho in particular. To me it wasn't even tera that was the main issue with these mons but in my opinion they were broken by themselves. I'm personally not so firmly DNB that I am going to spend huge amounts of time trying to convince people that DNB is right because I could be wrong and banning tera could be what the metagame needs. I would be open to trialling a ND tera banned metagame because for me at least i have never played without tera in gen 9 so I'm not sure if it would be good. If we ban tera and it makes the metagame worse even after a while of stabilising, what would the recourse be? Would we do another suspect on tera?
I've felt like most posters in this thread will probably not have their minds changed, but it hopefully seems like you are open to revising your opinion. You said the 'main thing' is that you think gambit and ghold are broken without tera. I think this reasoning is a bit unsound.
I pretty adamantly disagree with this and people have stated a ton of reasons why both here and in the metagame thread so I'm not gonna repeat them, but I implore you to really rethink this if you are not firmly DNB. Imo voting DNB because two mons might be broken anyway isn't great reasoning considering how:
1. Even if they are broken without tera, the council could just reban them. This realistically wouldn't take long if they were clearly broken.
2. That metagame had tera in it, so it's an inaccurate projection of what a teraless metagame with those two would look like
3. The tier is much more than those two mons
If you think the tier may be better off without tera, and you're open to trialling a tera banned ou-adjacent metagame in gen 9, then I suggest you vote ban. Hypothetically if tera is banned, and the playerbase, after a decent amount of time and with enough support, want to retest tera, then maybe another suspect on tera is not out of the question - the council has demonstrated (rightfully so) that not testing something because it's already been tested more than once isn't really valid, so it would imo be hypocritical to not retest it if there is support for it.
I guess the main thing is for me, I really did not enjoy the metagame with gambit and gholdengho in particular. To me it wasn't even tera that was the main issue with these mons but in my opinion they were broken by themselves.
I'm actually glad this came up because this is something I've been meaning to talk about since it has come up more than once in this thread. Moisture already covered the main things regarding potential unbans in a post tera metagame and the way it could be handled (if something is still broken, just lock it back up). There's also more to the topic than mons simply being broken outright by Tera, but rather than too many pokemon are being enabled by it to become dangerous and challenging to account for in conjunction with one another when teambuilding. Offense doesn't have it as hard, but defensive teams struggle much more in this area.
I can't speak for everyone, but I know I have seen some people mention how Kingambit in a post tera would bring valuable role compression and stability for teams, especially Balance who would appreciate its priority, defensive presence and general efficient progress making qualities, especially offering helpful resistance to still dangerous threats like Tapu Lele or frailer speed boosting sweepers.
Which brings me back to my main point, some DNB players have said they believe certain pokemon are broken without Tera and Kingambit has been counted among that. I have to seriously ask to any DNB voters who feel Gambit would still be broken post Tera, how is Kingambit still broken in a theoretical metagame where Fighting types are dominant and it can no longer escape its weakness to them? This isn't just fighting types, but bulkier walls like Zapdos, Moltres, even Heatran can comfortably stand up to a non Tera Kingambit consistently. It wouldn't have nearly as easy a time winning endgames when it has multiple checks on opposing teams.
I'll just repeat, for me personally the ultimate purpose in removing Tera is toning down threat saturation issue by removing volatility (which Tera can exacerbate) and improving the consistency of X as a check to Y. (ex. Landorus-T actually pivoting into Bolt and forcing it out, helping to reduce the danger of a mon that can be troublesome).
My point wasn't that banning tera would necessarily make stall better (although it probably would slightly as tera is more often a surprise/offensive mechanic than a defensive one). It was more so that I actually dont think stall or HO are really running so rampant that we should ban tera based of this (which I saw some people suggest). I actually enjoy the current tier for the most part, and whilst I agree there are definitely issues I'm not sure that banning tera is the way to go.
I guess the main thing is for me, I really did not enjoy the metagame with gambit and gholdengho in particular. To me it wasn't even tera that was the main issue with these mons but in my opinion they were broken by themselves. I'm personally not so firmly DNB that I am going to spend huge amounts of time trying to convince people that DNB is right because I could be wrong and banning tera could be what the metagame needs. I would be open to trialling a ND tera banned metagame because for me at least i have never played without tera in gen 9 so I'm not sure if it would be good. If we ban tera and it makes the metagame worse even after a while of stabilising, what would the recourse be? Would we do another suspect on tera?
I see, must have just been a misunderstanding on my end, I was reading this as "Stall is pretty solid right now because it's often running the same five mons"
I can somewhat echo your sentiments in the second paragraph as well, while I personally liked the Kingambit metagame a lot, it's by no means a universal experience. I hated Gholdengo a lot, and am slightly hesitant towards its freeing in a teraless metagame, but I'm still willing to give it a fair shake as it could be manageable. Moyashi's points were great and I'll echo them here, as I feel that tera is significantly more overbearing when used by (generally) slower, bulkier setup sweepers, as evidenced by Gholdengo, Kingambit and Zamazenta, also including Gouging Fire to a lesser extent. It feels like pokemon in a similar vein as these ones were affected by tera the hardest (see: tera steel roost dnite, cresselia as a meme option), but unfortunately these types of pokemon are often needed by balance teams to check offense and HO, and their banning being a major symptom to it falling off in the tier.
Also, iterating more on my previous statements, stall being forced into the same five is another strong indicator of how the tier's been skewed lately. It's pretty hard for any stall worth its salt to innovate on our current 6 of Sableye-Mega, Blob, Corviknight, Dondozo, Clodsire and Toxapex without leaving them open to major threats in the metagame. Unfortunately the rather rigid structure means that slight variations or one to two turns going poorly can often spell the end for defensive strategies, as once one piece falls the rest is generally quick to come with it. It's not unusable, but it's rather fishy with how many threats there are in the tier right now, and it's hard for teams of that nature to utilize tera to its fullest extent without severely compromising your core.
Thanks for replying though, having actual conversations about Terastalization and its impact on the metagame is quite nice, hope to hear more from you in the future!
also you should Absolutely Go Vote If You Can, ban or not if you have any opinion about this whatsoever you should make your opinion known and participate in the suspect. Even though there's only a few days left you can absolutely still get reqs if you try hard enough, as on my successful attempt it took me ~5 hours max. I put some teams I've used and had success with, but it's totally fine to run your own builds as well.
I see, must have just been a misunderstanding on my end, I was reading this as "Stall is pretty solid right now because it's often running the same five mons"
I can somewhat echo your sentiments in the second paragraph as well, while I personally liked the Kingambit metagame a lot, it's by no means a universal experience. I hated Gholdengo a lot, and am slightly hesitant towards its freeing in a teraless metagame, but I'm still willing to give it a fair shake as it could be manageable. Moyashi's points were great and I'll echo them here, as I feel that tera is significantly more overbearing when used by (generally) slower, bulkier setup sweepers, as evidenced by Gholdengo, Kingambit and Zamazenta, also including Gouging Fire to a lesser extent. It feels like pokemon in a similar vein as these ones were affected by tera the hardest (see: tera steel roost dnite, cresselia as a meme option), but unfortunately these types of pokemon are often needed by balance teams to check offense and HO, and their banning being a major symptom to it falling off in the tier.
Also, iterating more on my previous statements, stall being forced into the same five is another strong indicator of how the tier's been skewed lately. It's pretty hard for any stall worth its salt to innovate on our current 6 of Sableye-Mega, Blob, Corviknight, Dondozo, Clodsire and Toxapex without leaving them open to major threats in the metagame. Unfortunately the rather rigid structure means that slight variations or one to two turns going poorly can often spell the end for defensive strategies, as once one piece falls the rest is generally quick to come with it. It's not unusable, but it's rather fishy with how many threats there are in the tier right now, and it's hard for teams of that nature to utilize tera to its fullest extent without severely compromising your core.
Thanks for replying though, having actual conversations about Terastalization and its impact on the metagame is quite nice, hope to hear more from you in the future!
also you should Absolutely Go Vote If You Can, ban or not if you have any opinion about this whatsoever you should make your opinion known and participate in the suspect. Even though there's only a few days left you can absolutely still get reqs if you try hard enough, as on my successful attempt it took me ~5 hours max. I put some teams I've used and had success with, but it's totally fine to run your own builds as well.
One of the main tenets of competitive Pokemon as a whole is to be able to make plans. At team preview, the best competitive players would identify the most pressing issues to one's team and make decisions at that moment, as well as during the game when information is revealed, about what is valuable in a game and what is not valuable in that same game. An Iron Crown in one game may be important to preserve to come in again and again on an enemy Lele, for instance, while in another game, its main role is to put out a few Future Sights and act as simply a pivot, a Pokemon that is expendable and whose purpose is to bring in other Pokemon.
Knowing this, there are many ways that both sides can use to interfere with the plans of the opponent and further one's own plans. For instance, I may run a Pokemon with a move or item that is designed to catch an enemy off guard, or a lure. Perhaps I may use Future Sight to hinder the pivoting capabilities of the opponent, forcing them into specific patterns. These are all able to be played around: when I have revealed that my Pokemon is a Choice Specs Tapu Lele instead of a Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, specific lines that the opponent might want to take are no longer possible, but others that were previously unseen open. In essence, in a balanced metagame, people can be reasonably expected to play around most threats, and a show of skill can be demonstrated in this manner.
Terastellisation throws this concept completely out of the window. One of the key facts that enable plans to be made "on the go", as I have described just now, is typing, both in terms of the Pokemon's own type and the types of moves that it can use. No matter whether my Tapu Lele is a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs set, it is always weak to the Steel type. Using my STAB moves and coverage, there is no possible way I am able to easily break through an Iron Crown, for instance, barring a prediction or careful manoeuvreing. However, one of the key features of Terastallisation is that suddenly, a Pokemon is able to turn into what is effectively a different Pokemon. This is an issue as many plans centre around bringing in a fast sweeper or revenge killer to take down an opponent, or using the defensive properties of some Pokemon to hold off or fully counter another. With that Pokemon being able to immediately bypass this by changing its own offensive and defensive typing, this has the immediate potential to swing a match.
Some would argue that this "new" Pokemon, for instance the Grass type Volcarona or the Fairy type Raging Bolt, also has its weaknesses, and can be checked as well. And they are correct; these Pokemon are not suddenly invincible. But the crux of the issue is this: it is unreasonable for a player to be able to account for these changes. Some may argue this is because there are a variety of Terastalisation types that a single Pokemon can become, and this is indeed a factor that exacerbates the issue, but not the main point: the main point is that such a drastic change of a Pokemon's innate properties that can happen -- at any time, to any Pokemon -- in battle, is unreasonable for the defending player to deal with. Consider this: a Volcarona after a Quiver Dance which is facing down a full health Mega Tyranitar has two main options: to switch or to Terastallise to a type like Ground or Grass. True, Tyranitar individually can handle non-Tera Volcarona, and another Pokemon, say X, can handle Tera Volcarona (putting aside the strain on teambuilding this brings for a moment), but which one is it? You cannot use the same response to both cases, and by the time that you figure out what the Volcarona wants to do, it or its team has already run away with the game!
As such, having Terastellisation as the greatest example of a "get out of jail free card" in recent Pokemon history is completely antithetical to the essence of Pokemon itself. By being able to so instantly curtail the opponent's plans and force the opponent to take a shot in the dark, in my opinion, undermines the strategic nature of Pokemon itself. I believe that no matter how so-called "balanced" Terastellisation is, that it has no place in any competitive metagame.
The clear answer to the debate is to ban Terastellisation.
I know I don't have to post it here but I don't wanna lose it somehow sooo
Anyways, I WILL be voting BAN on the Terastalization Phenomenon. Everyone saying they'll be voting DNB because of Tiering Policy is just disappointing, like you guys don't think they didn't acknowledge that? Vote what you actually think about Tera, not what a policy has to say. I know Tera is bullshit, I know Tera is unhealthy, I know Tera is robbing me of using Kingambit in NDOU. That's why I wanna vote Ban. I haven't seen any good arguments from the DNB side and that's just lame, half of these posts are either people complaining about Tiering Policy or waffling about "playing around Tera" which at that point you might as well just write "Skill issue" because that's how lame of an excuse that is. Imagine if people wrote that about playing around Mega Lucario or Mega Gengar, it's just rubbish.
This ladder is terrible as well, which is why I don't like doing suspect reqs for this tier or for any ND tier in general, and Tera is not helping, most of those 13 games I lost were because of this dumb mechanic and all the "charm" it had has worn off ages ago. I'm sick of it. Ban. Tera.
Edit; well not rlly an edit but smth i wanted to bring up, this whole "tiering policy" argument from DNB reminds me of how ppl wanted to keep Xerneas in NDUbers because "ubers is a legendary tier therefore xerneas should stay since ubers doesnt care abt centralisation" which is also a stupid argument - not the best comparison IK IK but im just saying neither of these two points are convincing and i still will be voting BAN
The suspect is getting closer to the deadline so make sure you have used the /linksmogon command on your suspect account or else you won't be considered a voter. Would hate for anyone to have qualified but not get to vote because of this.
Alright, I know I'm a bit late to the party. I really want to discuss my full thoughts on Tera, hence the creation of this post.
Now, if you asked me my opinion on Tera like, a year ago or something, I would've been against banning it. It was a nice change of pace from the previous generations (and not nearly as broken as Dynamax), and trying to innovate with different Tera types to optimize your team or throw your opponent off guard with a curveball type was, and admittedly still is quite fun. But after growing far more accustomed to National Dex by playing thousands of games, and seeing many Pokemon get ousted from the format via Suspect Tests, I have come to the belief that Terastallization is actively poisoning the health of this format.
As me and many others have mentioned before, Tera can warp the game to an incredible degree. It allows you to flip the script on many checks and dangers that your team might have to deal with. Is your sweeper about to get hit with Toxic? Just Tera Steel/Poison and set up on them. Or do something like Tera Dark on a Psychic weak Pokemon to turn that weakness into an immunity. Tera allows the opponent to punish you for making a logical move. It toys with the fundamentals of the game, allowing some players to alleviate bad situations, and even turn them into good ones. The Dragonite Vs Medicham example serves as an excellent example of this. Why should the Dragonite be allowed to punish your Medicham for exploiting its quad weakness? Sure, you can reasonably expect them to Tera at that moment, and click Close Combat, but a more skilled player might attempt to bluff a Tera, and make you look like an absolute clown by hitting the Dragonite with a resisted move. Tera stirs up 50/50 scenarios where they really shouldn't occur. Why should I try to U-Turn on the Heatran? Why should I not Ice Spinner the Gliscor? Is this really a healthy mechanic? Why should someone get punished for making a logical move against the opponent? Some people may say "just get better, and predict the Tera, it's nothing but a skill issue", but mathematically, it is nothing but a 50/50. You can't get more skilled at flipping a coin, whatever side it lands on is up to fate. Sure, a less attentive player is more likely to Tera in the face of danger, but when the opponent considers the possibility of bluffing the Tera, everything boils down to pure chance.
Now, most of that was on the topic of defensive Tera, I want to move on to offensive Tera, which I consider far more potent. It allows you to break past your opponent's defensive counters through brute force. Without your Tera, you would likely be punished for trying to attack into a Pokemon who is walling your attacker. Lets say a Ferrothorn comes in on your Specs Tapu Lele, and this Ferrothorn will require 3 Psychics to take down. Say it is at around 70% of its health or so. Each Psychic would deal about 30% of its health, and it comes in on your attack, reducing its HP to 40%, and giving it one turn to go for Thunder Wave, Rocks, Power Whip, etc. In this scenario, you can choose to Psychic again, putting the Ferrothorn at critical HP, making it easy pickings for the rest of your team. Though this allows the Ferrothorn to likely retaliate by Thunder Waving your Lele, which might be bad depending on the circumstances. You could also switch out, preserving your Lele's status, but then the Ferrothorn still has a sizable chunk of its HP left, it might get the chance to Leech Seed later and get all that health back. Both your options come at a decent cost, its your choice whether you want to make a safer play or a more reckless play, both of which may have repercussions later in the game, but why not just have the best of both worlds? With Tera Psychic, you can KO that Ferrothorn while making sure your Lele doesn't suffer any damage in the process. You may argue that using Tera for the Lele was the opportunity cost here, in some cases you may be right, against a more aggressive team, the Lele player might have needed to preserve their Tera to stop their opponent's sweeper (who probably also abused Tera to gain an edge). Against a slower, bulkier team, who would've appreciated being able to Thunder Wave the Lele (for something like Scizor to outspeed), that Tera Psychic Lele might only be able to be stopped by a Tera of their own, and by using a defensive Tera, they might have just opened up a door for another sweeper to finish them off. In a way, Tera is somewhat similar to Dynamax. While not nearly as broken, a well-timed Tera on one player's side will often force a Tera on the other player's side. The latter of which will almost always be a defensive Tera. Defensive teams just get heavily overwhelmed by Tera in general. A world where you are able to brute force your opponent's defensive counters with Tera will undoubtedly lead to an offensively skewed metagame.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 105-124 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Vs.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 141-166 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 226-267 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs.
252 SpA Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 302-356 (42.9 - 50.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
&
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 129-153 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Vs.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 173-204 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 264-312 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 258-304 (64.6 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Vs.
+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 344-406 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 172 SpA Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 230-272 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs.
+1 172 SpA Tera Fighting Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 344-408 (98 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 172 SpA Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 206-244 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 87.4% chance to 3HKO
Vs.
+1 172 SpA Tera Fighting Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 308-366 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun on a critical hit: 222-270 (74.7 - 90.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
Vs.
252 Atk Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun on a critical hit: 300-360 (101 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk on a critical hit: 306-360 (82.4 - 97%) -- approx. 2HKO
Vs.
252 Atk Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk on a critical hit: 408-480 (109.9 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A lot of the Pokemon we have suspected and banned were excellent Tera abusers, Gholdengo, Kingambit, Espathra, Roaring Moon, all of these guys used offensive and/or defensive Tera to blast through their counters. We have had so many bans this generation, and yet we cannot seem to stabilize the metagame, as many will say that National Dex is in a poor state right now. I genuinely don't see how banning more Pokemon is the right move, the way I see it, trying to do so is just like cutting off the heads of a hydra. Every time we have banned a Pokemon, more start to rise in its wake, for example, after banning Kingambit, Gholdengo and Dragapult rose in viability, and after those guys got banned, Sneasler and Zamazenta rose, then after them, Darkrai and Wellspring. Will there really be a stop here? If we ban Wellspring and Kyurem, the two most controversial Pokemon in the format right now, we will just give rise to things like Dragonite, Rain and Tapu Lele. If we have to ban long-time staples such as these, then there is clearly a problem at hand. Tera is and always will be the root issue here. A lot of the Pokemon who we have tested have used it to their advantage, which played a major part in their ban. I bet half of the Pokemon we have suspected thus far wouldn't be nearly as dangerous as they were without Tera to enhance their power. Regardless of the outcome of this suspect, I will continue to play National Dex, but I urge any DNB voters to think about this, if Tera isn't banned, is there any hope for this format? If we keep banning Pokemon, more things will rise in their stead, and I bet those will be suspected until we will get down to things that were never problematic to begin with, like Dragonite.
As much as I hate Tera, I have seen some good arguments for the DNB side. I am quite glad that this debate has been very productive and insightful, after all, we are deciding the very fate of the format with this vote. I urge anyone who is voting to not completely base your vote on whether you find Tera fun or not, but what you think is important for the health of the format. Pokemon is still a game we play for fun, but it is important to uphold the competitive side of it. I think Tera sullies the fundamental aspects of the game, and has also been the root cause for why our metagame is so offensively skewed, and therefore will be voting ban.
Whatever your decision may be, I hope you vote to bring Justice to National Dex. Thanks for reading!
The main reason I believe tera is a good and engaging mechanic is that it benefits ALL team styles. The main complaint I see is that it makes HO broken and overcentralizing, which I believe neither are true. In NDPL, the most common team style we saw was BO or balance, and HO didn't have an absurdly high win rate, I believe. On BO, using tera will save you against the HO and I think this is just as important to BO or balance as it is to HO. Multiple games I played, I was using balance and garg or lando counter tera saved me. I don't think that it's nearly as frustrating a mechanic as Z moves, because there's quite literally nothing stopping something like kart or lando from SD > Z free kill. The difference is that tera can be used offensively or defensively. For tera, there is a pretty easy way to get around their tera - your own. This could force a 50 50, but I disagree with that this is such a problem that it needs to go. I think that stall is great currently because of that extra tool vs offense. Ogerpon would just 6-0 stall if not for tera dozo. On the other hand, tera provides an excellent tool for wallbreaking.
I personally disagree with the argument that tera is the cause of so many mons getting banned. I don't disagree with the point that there were a ton of things that got banned and they were also tera abusers, obviously the ban list is huge this gen, but saying that tera is to blame is fundamentally flawed. The following is (I think) the list of NEW mons allowed in NDOU that were banned:
Annihilape
Baxcalibur
Chien-Pao
Chi-Yu
Darkrai
Espathra
Flutter Mane
Gholdengo
Gouging Fire
Iron Bundle
Kingambit
Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Palafin
Roaring Moon
Sneasler
Terapagos-Stellar
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Walking Wake
Zamazenta-Crowned
Now, the following is the list of mons who were PREVIOUSLY legal on NDOU that were banned:
Melmetal
Regieleki
Shedinja
Yes, some of the guys in the new ban list are obviously tera abusers and are likely to be unbanned if tera wasn't around no more, but to say that more than just a few of them would be legal and viable in OU is not something that anyone could know. If tera is banned, what do those of you complaining about the prevalent HO, think will happen? What do you think will happen when sneasler and roaring moon and gouging and bax are unbanned? It'll suddenly transform into a safe haven where everything is perfectly balanced? If you are voting to ban because you want broken mons back, I implore you to question your motives and what your expected result of a ban would be. Because of this, I will not be voting in the hope of certain mons being unbanned, but rather how the current meta would be affected.
Being completely honest - I did not touch this tier much until this suspect. I followed the tournament scene and had a general understanding of the meta, but I didn't care to learn the tier. And the main reason is that I was too lazy and busy and didn't care enough to learn tera. I didn't want to learn how to predict what tera is on what mons and on what teams, but after getting reqs, it is honestly NOT that hard to know when someone is going to tera, or what tera type is on their team. A team that's more of a balance with roost dnite is probably tera steel. An offensive team that needs priority for things like bolt, as well as has counterplay to shit like slowbro and corvi is tera normal dnite. A team that doesn't have a bunch of guys who need to tera or has screens support for easier setup is tera blast fly dnite. Same thing can be said for defensive. I didn't struggle with knowing if a ferro is terI felt the same way, but to a lesser extent because obviosly tournament sets are weirder than ladder. It wasn't super difficult to understand when someone wants to tera. Going back to the same example, if you have a corviknight and the opponent has a dnite and a tusk and a kart, it is very likely that they will tera to break through it for someone in the back to sweep. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-800695
This ndpl replay is a good example, where sealoo terad with prima despite it being almost dead. Sealoo thought that the trade off of sacking prima and tera to chip the yard and also get the free setup would be worth it, and it was used defensively on an offensive team. Tera adds nuance and risk vs reward as well as careful planning and strategy.
I think that tera is fun. I like when my bulk up tusk does tera poison as they try to toxic me. I like when my lando takes 15 from an ice beam instead of the ohko. And if you cant figure out how to position the game to not let something tera sweep you after two years of this tier, theres just nothing else to say and no point in debating, and I support your dedication to this tier despite absolutely hating the generational mechanic.And I support why getting told no twice wasn't good enough for you. I liked Lameflame's point that if tera was banned, it would not be retested a single time, much less twice. There are valid reasons for thinking tera is bs and much of it I agree with. But respectfully, if you find yourself getting swept by tera HO every game, perhaps you should take a look at how you're playing rather than thinking tera is the issue. And if you're so blinded by your hatred of tera that you can't see the problem with testing something 3 times, I just dont know what to tell you. And for those wondering, I came to the decision that testing something 3 times is stupid FAR before I decided I was voting dnb
Apologies for formatting/repition I'm posting this from my phone
I don't play natdex or really any tier with Tera anymore, but the thing I'd like to question is when does skill become just guessing? It seems like many aren't actually drawing that line between the two across like every tier that keeps this mechanic. Like 50/50 is a gross oversimplification of one of the main issues with Tera. It's not unusual for a mon to have multiple typings it could choose and would be effective. That's not even considering midgrounds that consider a potential different typing. Tera choices may be dependent on current meta team-building trends but theres always the chance of the preference changing or them just not choosing to utilize it. Is a player bad because they earth power a heatran with kyurem and it becomes tera grass? This seems like more than just "skill issue". So where is the line between skillful choice vs a pure guess?
The main reason I believe tera is a good and engaging mechanic is that it benefits ALL team styles. The main complaint I see is that it makes HO broken and overcentralizing, which I believe neither are true. In NDPL, the most common team style we saw was BO or balance, and HO didn't have an absurdly high win rate, I believe. On BO, using tera will save you against the HO and I think this is just as important to BO or balance as it is to HO. Multiple games I played, I was using balance and garg or lando counter tera saved me. I don't think that it's nearly as frustrating a mechanic as Z moves, because there's quite literally nothing stopping something like kart or lando from SD > Z free kill. The difference is that tera can be used offensively or defensively. For tera, there is a pretty easy way to get around their tera - your own. This could force a 50 50, but I disagree with that this is such a problem that it needs to go. I think that stall is great currently because of that extra tool vs offense. Ogerpon would just 6-0 stall if not for tera dozo. On the other hand, tera provides an excellent tool for wallbreaking.
I personally disagree with the argument that tera is the cause of so many mons getting banned. I don't disagree with the point that there were a ton of things that got banned and they were also tera abusers, obviously the ban list is huge this gen, but saying that tera is to blame is fundamentally flawed. The following is (I think) the list of NEW mons allowed in NDOU that were banned:
Annihilape
Baxcalibur
Chien-Pao
Chi-Yu
Darkrai
Espathra
Flutter Mane
Gholdengo
Gouging Fire
Iron Bundle
Kingambit
Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Palafin
Roaring Moon
Sneasler
Terapagos-Stellar
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Walking Wake
Zamazenta-Crowned
Now, the following is the list of mons who were PREVIOUSLY legal on NDOU that were banned:
Melmetal
Regieleki
Shedinja
Yes, some of the guys in the new ban list are obviously tera abusers and are likely to be unbanned if tera wasn't around no more, but to say that more than just a few of them would be legal and viable in OU is not something that anyone could know. If tera is banned, what do those of you complaining about the prevalent HO, think will happen? What do you think will happen when sneasler and roaring moon and gouging and bax are unbanned? It'll suddenly transform into a safe haven where everything is perfectly balanced? If you are voting to ban because you want broken mons back, I implore you to question your motives and what your expected result of a ban would be. Because of this, I will not be voting in the hope of certain mons being unbanned, but rather how the current meta would be affected.
Being completely honest - I did not touch this tier much until this suspect. I followed the tournament scene and had a general understanding of the meta, but I didn't care to learn the tier. And the main reason is that I was too lazy and busy and didn't care enough to learn tera. I didn't want to learn how to predict what tera is on what mons and on what teams, but after getting reqs, it is honestly NOT that hard to know when someone is going to tera, or what tera type is on their team. A team that's more of a balance with roost dnite is probably tera steel. An offensive team that needs priority for things like bolt, as well as has counterplay to shit like slowbro and corvi is tera normal dnite. A team that doesn't have a bunch of guys who need to tera or has screens support for easier setup is tera blast fly dnite. Same thing can be said for defensive. I didn't struggle with knowing if a ferro is terI felt the same way, but to a lesser extent because obviosly tournament sets are weirder than ladder. It wasn't super difficult to understand when someone wants to tera. Going back to the same example, if you have a corviknight and the opponent has a dnite and a tusk and a kart, it is very likely that they will tera to break through it for someone in the back to sweep. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-800695
This ndpl replay is a good example, where sealoo terad with prima despite it being almost dead. Sealoo thought that the trade off of sacking prima and tera to chip the yard and also get the free setup would be worth it, and it was used defensively on an offensive team. Tera adds nuance and risk vs reward as well as careful planning and strategy.
I think that tera is fun. I like when my bulk up tusk does tera poison as they try to toxic me. I like when my lando takes 15 from an ice beam instead of the ohko. And if you cant figure out how to position the game to not let something tera sweep you after two years of this tier, theres just nothing else to say and no point in debating, and I support your dedication to this tier despite absolutely hating the generational mechanic.And I support why getting told no twice wasn't good enough for you. I liked Lameflame's point that if tera was banned, it would not be retested a single time, much less twice. There are valid reasons for thinking tera is bs and much of it I agree with. But respectfully, if you find yourself getting swept by tera HO every game, perhaps you should take a look at how you're playing rather than thinking tera is the issue. And if you're so blinded by your hatred of tera that you can't see the problem with testing something 3 times, I just dont know what to tell you. And for those wondering, I came to the decision that testing something 3 times is stupid FAR before I decided I was voting dnb
Apologies for formatting/repition I'm posting this from my phone
1. as a person who was also in pl i saw a majority of HO/offense mirrors and i think it ties in usage with BO. im not gonna go and grab replays but this was brought it earlier in the thread and answered by omar.
im not sure if you've been keeping up with the thread but most of the points you argue here have already been answered; defensive tera is less impactful than offensive tera and oftentimes opens a significant weakness.
a) tera changes your typing
b) tera gains stab, and effectively gives adaptability given the same typing
c) tera blast gains tera's typing
where do you see this benefiting bulky structures? how is blissey going to benefit from getting steel stab?
and even on top of that, changing your typing just means you're opening weaknesses to things you used to check, eg. if u tera dragon ur pex to beat waterpon, you lose to ival where otherwise that shouldn'tve happened; you can argue that "tera is a resource" but it inherently benefits offensive mons which is the main reason in that archetype's popularity. iron moth, kyurem, tusk, ogerpon, dnite etc. they're all HO/offense mainstays(albeit some of them can fit on other structures, but have the same effect on HO) and they all abuse tera to a high degree. this is the first time i've seen dnite geniunely get complaints in a competitive format which if anything just tells me how cheesed we are.
i think you can ask a lot of people and they will say z moves arent broken and never will be. tbh thats a ridiculous statement to make because z moves are barely as problematic as tera, lol
a) even in this generation z moves aren't really a necessity and on a lot of structures you will see no z moves; it's not centralizing at all and you're not missing out if you dont capitalize on them anyway
b) z moves have opportunity cost; you have to give up your item. tera is pretty much just a button you can click at any time and if terastal was an item it would be so much more balanced.
c) i feel like tera on dnite is much more of an issue than z move on kart, because regardless you're gonna take a kill, but z moves are a one time nuke, while terastal gives you STAB and a new typing for the rest of the game; it makes the abuser harder to rko, and can't be conventionally beaten using status(where dnite uses steel, where tusk uses poison). giving a speed boosting sweeper tera as an option just lets it give setup opportunities and wholly sweep where z moves couldn't
saying stall is great is insane LOL. afaik there's been close to zero stall usage in PL and FL(except when lf got horridly mu fished :sob:) and if you ask around people will say its a shitty playstyle and much worse than last gen. idk what kind of world you're living in buddy stall is not good. it only really works on ladder bc stall is the least reactive to bullshit tera types that would otherwise cheese thru ur typical balance(eg. tera blast ice/electric blaziken)+ladder is horrid anyway so stalling can be a good option there and there only.
2. i've talked to a lot of people and generally they think that a majority of mons would get an unban if tera is banned. from what i've seen, most people who disapprove of kgb/ghold's release in the case of a tera ban just have a skill issue tbh, there are obvious glaring flaws within most of the unbans without the ability to change their typing, and i think that would lead to a more stable metagame(if not instantly)
you also missed darkrai and zamazenta. as you can see, some of these mons can be very beneficial for more balanced structures; ghold, kingambit, terapagos, and aforementioned zamazenta can be great anti offense tools that aren't overpowering due to terastal
your rhetorical question here is kind of ridiculous; a) HO in itself abuses tera far more efficiently than a defensive tera would, and removing that option from offensive teams in the first place would hinder the archetype without even considering unbans(as sweepers like dragonite or tusk cannot avoid their weaknesses; it makes them easier to handle), b) roaring moon is getting unbanned for sure but as my previous point has stated, where is roaring moon gonna get a setup opportunity? it cant tera fly on lando and wall it, it cant tera on tusk and setup, etc. it has a pretty horrid typing and as a mon who wants to setup it's looking really difficult for it to get an opening(itd most likely have to use booster speed), especially when we're looking at a future fighting type meta. next, the list of mons you've given are only HO or otherwise HO mons that are inherently extremely broken and would not be released. dire claw is broken, baxcalibur is broken, and gouging wasn't even an abuser of tera, so i'm not even sure why you brought that up. you fail to mention the plethora of unbans that would benefit the tier and instead rattled off a list of obviously broken HO staples that wouldn't be unbanned anyway. while even i'm not sure what the meta would look like, i can guarantee it'll be better than it is now.
3. tera has a bunch of problems that you cant really just blanket under "skill issue"
a) what, are you going to confidently cc into a dnite because it's gonna tera normal? from my perspective that's ridiculous, if i position a type advantage vs a dnite then the dnite shouldnt be able to just swap their type at will and fuck me over, that's just stupid and while you can learn how to play with tera it doesn't really solve the issue anyway. what if dnite was z dragon and it couldn't tera? you cc into dnite and you look like a dumbass. tera should'nt even be a mechanic from a fundamentals standpoint imo, read up on Djwaot's post, they mention this
b) some teras you will know, obviously iron moth is going to tera ground but there's nothing you can really do about it, even if you do know when they will. slowking-galar will always textbook check iron moth; it can twave and click future sight. however, if iron moth tera grounds, what are you going to do then?
iron moth with tera blast can just snowball incredibly fast because it can beat all of it's checks. heatran, slowking-g, pex? you just gain the typing and type of a move you did not have, and can just overpower your checks. i find that incredibly stupid. if i position a pex versus an iron moth i have the better type matchup, i positioned better than my opponent. it shouldnt be able to flip the type matchup. i played better, i should win the mu, no?
the same concept applies to tera normal dragonite as i mentioned earlier. there have been multiple instances of me clicking tera normal on an otherwise super effective moonblast or ice beam and gaining setup opportunities out of the blue. it makes dragonite even harder to rko too, since it gains STAB on extreme speed and can just oneshot speed control like mlop anyway. when does it become less of a "skill issue" and more of an actual issue with tera itself?
4. i feel like this last part is just kinda rude but whatever.
a) how do you position something versus tera steel dragonite? how about tera normal? tera fire? that is my point lol, if you bring your check to dnite correctly then it shouldnt be able to gain a setup opportunity in the first place, it's not about a skill issue nor is it about positioning, its about clicking tera when you should be losing and winning when you have the negative matchup. it's stupid, it shouldn't be a mechanic, and it's certainly a problem to me when something teras, setups for free, and kills everything where it shouldnt have.
b) it's kinda crazy that you still are riding the 3 times suspect argument when it's been responded to by many people including a literal NDTL telling you that a bullshit reason to ban tera. there have been a multitude of changes and community outcry between each test, and i'm not sure how many people have to tell you that before you stop using it as an argument. it just seems like ur being ignorant.
I don't play natdex or really any tier with Tera anymore, but the thing I'd like to question is when does skill become just guessing? It seems like many aren't actually drawing that line between the two across like every tier that keeps this mechanic. Like 50/50 is a gross oversimplification of one of the main issues with Tera. It's not unusual for a mon to have multiple typings it could choose and would be effective. That's not even considering midgrounds that consider a potential different typing. Tera choices may be dependent on current meta team-building trends but theres always the chance of the preference changing or them just not choosing to utilize it. Is a player bad because they earth power a heatran with kyurem and it becomes tera grass? This seems like more than just "skill issue". So where is the line between skillful choice vs a pure guess?
if you've paid ANY attention to this thread thus far you will find that this exact argument has been stated and countered hundreds of times over, i dont know why you people keep regurgitating the same argument when it's been replied to a multitude of times. "skill issue" is a ridiculous argument, it's stupid, you don't even play this tier(which has different mechanics and moves ASIDE from tera) or ANY tier with tera so i dont even know why you made this post, go read what i said above and what other people have posted
Wait ok. im kinda dumb i didnt read ur post thoroughly XD whoopsie pie
i think my point still stands tho, tbh the best way of answering ur question is to read back on some of the posts, tbh i think the tera 50/50 isnt as valid of an argument for banning tera but its one thats been brought up before
For anyone who is on the DNB side, I want to ask this question because I am genuinely curious to see your answers. If we don't ban Tera, how do you suppose we mend the format? The surveys clearly indicate that National Dex is losing its enjoyability, and even with the large amount of suspect tests we have had, nothing has really changed for the better. I already voiced my opinion on why I think banning more Pokemon is not the solution, so I want to hear what you guys think, do you suppose we just continue to ban more Pokemon instead of Tera, or something else entirely?
For anyone who is on the DNB side, I want to ask this question because I am genuinely curious to see your answers. If we don't ban Tera, how do you suppose we mend the format? The surveys clearly indicate that National Dex is losing its enjoyability, and even with the large amount of suspect tests we have had, nothing has really changed for the better. I already voiced my opinion on why I think banning more Pokemon is not the solution, so I want to hear what you guys think, do you suppose we just continue to ban more Pokemon instead of Tera, or something else entirely?
I’m not dnb, but two common things I’ve heard are either that they personally enjoy the metagame rn so they don’t think any action is needed, or they think banning more controversial mons is the path forward, like Wellspring and/or Kyruem.
:{D
ABR Fat (not by me)
Glitter and Gold Booster Spam (obv not by me)
Sample Rain Team (...)
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