Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #8: Royals (Kingambit Suspect)

[Fraolain]

I think the mon is too centralize. By this point I mean if u don't have an answer to gambitt, a gameplan in ur build etc, ur team is not optimize.

[...]
Now I don't think having a meta where it's mandatory to prep too much against the same mon again and again (especially when gambitt have a super easy access to an hazard support and a fight immune), is something healthy.

I really feel like this is a huge overstatement. Yes, just like any mon, if you don't have an answer to it you will probably lose, the question is whether kingambit forces you to go out of your way to play those answer, and I don't think most types even need to think that much about kingambit when in the builder in the first place.
Bug struggles against steel, gambit has minimal impact on that matchup (if it had any, bug vs dark wouldn't be so one sided)
Dragon has archaludon, def gouging, hydreigon, and more
Electric has Iron Hands/Pawmot
Fairy is fairy
Fighting is Fighting
Flying will most often than not play def corvi or skarmory (you do not need upper hand flamigo or whatever that set even is)
Fire has wisp, encore ninetales, and fire moves on almost everyone to keep gambit from setting up too easily
Grass has breloom, lilligant-h, encore ogerpon Ice has def boost from snow, aurora veil, encore ninetales
Normal has braviary, ditto, zoroark-h (arguable "check" I'll give it to you)
Water has keldeo/shifu/quaquaval, encore ogerpon

My point being that these are all "natural" answers to gambit that would most likely still see play in a gambit-less meta (and even in a bisharp-less meta) because it provides more utility than "being your mandatory gambit check". Yes their viability is enhanced by kingambit's presence in the tier, but he is far from being the sole reason for their viability, which is why to me its "centralization" does not cross the line of unhealthiness.

Psychic, ghost and poison stands apart from the rest, I agree they are somewhat forced into playing unconventional answers for gambit (sub hoopa, fast skeledirge/destiny bond on random mons, weird sneasler set/ bu okidogi) but that's simply bound to happen to certain types in every monotype metagame (especially flawed ones like these 3).

For exemple I personnaly always use hdb on my urshifu in water cuz if I don't it's easy for the player of gambitt to put me in range.

That's an interesting point, but does gambit really forces you into playing hdb, or is it the mon that enhances steel's heavy hazard stacking playstyle ? (aka gholdengo)
(If the ting lu in dark got to set more than 2 spikes layers against your water I would say you're kind of at fault too)

I have to talk a bit about how dumb are the miror of steel and dark, it's pretty almost who will win the tie vs gambit or who have the jolly gambit.

I don't actually think this is true at all, that was the case for chien-pao and you might be confusing the 2 mons, steel mirrors do not necessarily come down to gambit ties because you have skarmory/archaludon, and in dark you have many way to deal with gambit without sending out your own. Even if it was true it wouldn't even be a good argument (also that lc comparaison is bad, you can't compare a whole entire tier with a simple type mirror in monotype), I can also say many fighting mirrors are decided by a valiant tie/whoever plays scarf, a ton of water mirrors are decided by who wins the ogerpon tie, same with the whole dragon/ghost mirrors.

 

[Jahkem]

and in any case I'm not trying to convince anybody to vote either way.

But I am.

I am publicly encouraging every single qualified voter to vote Do Not Ban on this suspect. As I’ve said in my previous post, Kingambit is not a Pokemon that wins games by itself. You still need to actually play good into order to put your Kingambit the position to win you the game.

In the previous MPL, I did a lot of test games with my friends and other players to help prepare for their games. During those test games and team building discussions, the main type they were concerned with beating was Flying. The amount of prep that many players put into beating Flying paid off more often than not. It reflects in Flying’s win rate from this MPL. The type win rates keep being brought up and you can see what happens to a type when people consider it a big enough threat to prep for more than others. I believe if the same amount of prep that went into Flying was put into Steel instead, we’d be singing a different song because Steel’s win rate wouldn’t be as high.

I do need to clarify this was my observation based on the prep I helped with, the discussions I witnessed and/or were a part of, and the games I spectated from all the SV slots. Just like Ethereal Sword said, him and many others (I’ll throw myself in there like he did), thought Flying would wreak havoc in tour play after Chien Pao’s ban. So, a lot of premature prepping for Flying happened and it resulted in a lower win rate for the type.

So, bottom line is: I believe Steel can be prepped for just like Flying can and I publicly encourage all voters to vote Do Not Ban.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Last day of suspect laddering before vote I think so I'll make another post on a few things I saw

I personally believe that Kingambit is quite broken, not as broken as Gouging Fire or Iron Valiant, but broken in the sense that it can and has crippled the Ghost type and part of Psychic type as sasha and had previously mentioned. Kingambit requires a LOT of thinking to play around as it can run numerous sets to foil possible counters towards it, and often forcing other types to have at LEAST one Fighting-type on their teams out of fear that a Kingambit may pop up, as someone previously mentioned, making it much more challenging for other types who struggle to beat it, especially if they require set up. Now thats not to say that Kingambit is broken because of its somewhat overwhelming presence, but the fact that Kingambit can effectively sweep with the help of Supreme Overlord ON TOP OF Swords Dance???, seems a bit much, dont you think?

I had half an aneurism reading this. If the argument is that both Psy or Ghost aren't being as represented as they would be otherwise, I'd simply point out that both types have a number of ways of dealing with Gambit. Psy has a number of mons that can Vacuum Wave, Will o Wisp, Psy Terrain prevents sucker form being used, Sub Hoopa U is a common enough set. Ghost has fast skele, Mimi, multiple sub-will o users, colbur users, etc. If you replaced Gambit on dark with any mon I don't think it would inherently make the mu easier for Psy or Ghost, and similarly I think Steel's hazard stack + support is powerful enough that simply replacing Gambit with Bisharp is enough to pretty much keep the ghost mu the same with a sucker endgame.

Not only that but what do you mean Gambit "can run numerous sets to foil possible counters towards it". This feels like a dishonest representation of Gambit considering the mon only runs Swords Dance sets, with the variation coming in the form of Item and Evs and whether or not it's using Low Kick or Iron Head.

I also kind of have to agree with Cielau here in terms of Kingambit's skill. I strongly believe there is ZERO skill needed to use it, and to cause havoc with it on either Dark or Steel teams. It has MANY coverage moves to get rid of many of its checks and threats, which van be useful in most scenarios for the team that its on, however, it forces them out to send a mon that can hopefully tank the hit, and can open up numerous opportunities for Kingambit to be able to set up as much as it wishes to, to the point where it would be nearly unbeatable.

Again, what do you mean it has "many coverage moves", unironically if someone on ladder was running anything besides sucker, kowtow, low kick, or iron head and I lost my first thought would be "jesus I lost to a noob". This doesn't happen though, because I don't believe anyone running a different coverage move seriously has made it beyond 1200s on ladder.

I'll also point out a pokemon requiring Zero skill to use doesn't really mean much to me. Does Ditto require a high skill ceiling to make use of, what justifies a pokemon being easy vs. difficult to use. If Gambit is as easy to use as you claim as well, then the fact I'm not losing to mid ladder folks who are using Steel/Dark kinda hurts the argument a bit to me. Gambit only seems a problem when upper ladder players take full advantage of the crazy team support to me, otherwise I'd be noticing it as an issue with players who aren't 1700+.

Psychic, ghost and poison stands apart from the rest, I agree they are somewhat forced into playing unconventional answers for gambit (sub hoopa, fast skeledirge/destiny bond on random mons, weird sneasler set/ bu okidogi) but that's simply bound to happen to certain types in every monotype metagame (especially flawed ones like these 3).

I largely agree with Frol's post, but one thing I'll point out here is that I don't think any of the mons listed for "unconventional answers" are in fact "unconventional". Maybe speedy dirge, but ghost still has a number of other methods to provide checks. On the other hand Sub Hoopa is in my opinion a phenomenal set for the mon which I'm a huge fan of, and even aside from Hoopa there are still a number of mons, some of which may be unconventional sure, but all the same are pretty easy to fit onto a psy team. BPress colbur Slowbro covers more than just Gambit, Vac Wave mons are options, Psy Terrain enables multiple mons to answer. As for Poison, Okidogi is one of my favorite mons to use on the type for how it helps the Steel MU, while not only answering Gambit but also providing useful resists to Rock and Dark.

For Poison in particular, Gambit is not the mon that would stress you out in the builder. Sure it can get ugly if Okidogi for whatever reason is dead earlier in the game, but mons such as Landorus, Gliscor, Gholdengo, and Raging Bolt are all far more existential threats to keep in mind. It's worth noting that as others mentioned, every meta will have key mons you need to prep for, but generally speaking I don't see Kingambit as the primary issue for any type really. What's keeping lower tier types such as Bug, Poison, Grass from having greater participation in the meta simply isn't Gambit. Similarly I don't think any of the top types has a difficulty with putting multiple checks or counters onto a team, and generally it is pretty natural to just putting a team together that they'd be used.

So, bottom line is: I believe Steel can be prepped for just like Flying can and I publicly encourage all voters to vote Do Not Ban.

This kinda goes in line with my previous statement. Maybe you can argue the existence of Gambit in combination with other oppressive types can be a stressor in the builder, but I don't think nearly as much effort is put into answering Gambit as people would put for other mons and types. Many of the natural answers to Gambit for a type are already top contenders for a spot on a team. Someone pointed out "Upper Hand Flamigo" earlier, which frankly is a pretty bad example of over centralization considering that Flying pretty naturally can build a team with 3-4 Gambit answers simply by building a standard fly. I mean Bulky BPress Steel Bird, you need a Gouging Fire answer so many people run intimidate Lando-T or Gyarados, Dnite is a staple on fly which typically runs Equake, Enam is a common fit, Gliscor is another mon with s.e coverage, obviously this is all in reference to a top type that has luxuries many others don't, but it's not like Gambit is the influence for all of these teambuilding decisions. That being said I think the meta is pretty concentrated with natural answers.

For another example that I saw was Cielau mentioning HDB Urshifu. I think this is a valid point, but still this seems to me more of a flaw in water than anything else. A lack of viable hazard removal I'd argue is the bane of Water in not just the Steel/Dark mu, but frankly is one of the biggest flaws in the type. Even going so far back as the start of DLC2, all it took to defeat water with ghost was literally starting out with a 4-6 deficit to get up Rocks and Spikes, and then take advantage of the lack of removal and passivity of the defensive mons to lategame clean with sub hex pult and flutter. Water does have a couple of mons I'd point to that answer Gambit. Hamurott, the fighting/waters - Keld in particular being notoriously good in these steel/dark mus, as well as a number of other mons that either hit gambit super effectively such as Pert or Gyara or resist Sucker like Primarina which can also be a problem mon for both types.

I think I'm leaning DNB right now, the fact that I'm seeing the problem to moreso be Steel rather than Gambit - which frankly has like multiple mons worthy of suspect - means I'm not totally convinced a gambit ban is the solution or what we should be focusing on. I'd still rather look at Arch, GF, and Glisc. Bap di pa dap

 

[twinkay]

consulted the mpl replays and this thread with an open mind and ultimately not convinced by the dnb arguments. i think it's clear that the combination of kingambit + gholdengo is too much for this meta and is completely restricting in both the builder and in play. i think even some dnb people agree with this (although could be wrong). i think kingambit would be more of a matchup fish without gholdengo but it would still be similarly dumb, prob equivalent to espathra now. i think what gets people confused is that just because kingambit isn't outright sweeping doesn't mean it didn't impact the game. kingambit is a very interesting sweeper because it's one-dimensional and if you have a decent fighting type or body press physef wall you probably won't get swept by it outright. the problem arises when paired with gholdengo bc kingambit forces the fighting type at risk of losing to one sd -> gholdengo gets free switch -> make progress with gambit + gholdengo damage + hazards. most types just don't have the tools to deal with this which is what makes steel the best and easiest type in the meta.

obv don't agree with gambit "holding the tier together" at all. sometimes a mon just is broken and happens to have a good defensive typing and that's okay. MLT winner ethereal sword kind of already gagged this argument tho so will just say even if other mons are broken they can be suspected too, it's not actually a problem

also we HAVE to stop with the "gambit isn't broken cause you have to play good to win with it" argument. if "playing good" just means executing ur most obvious game plan then you have to play good to win with every mon! otherwise, steel's game plan is very much a single player exercise and it doesn't take much effort to execute at all

if you think gholdengo is (or other mons are) broken -> I agree! but I think it's narrow-minded to say gambit isn't also broken, and ultimately the community has felt the gambit impact the hardest. a ghold suspect is far from guaranteed, but this one is. now's the chance to make progress in the meta and I think you should take it!

will vote ban

 

[Fraolain]

if you think gholdengo is (or other mons are) broken -> I agree! but I think it's narrow-minded to say gambit isn't also broken, and ultimately the community has felt the gambit impact the hardest. a ghold suspect is far from guaranteed, but this one is. now's the chance to make progress in the meta and I think you should take it!

And I think saying that kingambit is also broken is an insane stretch ! How can the one-dimensional mon, which has natural counters in almost every types, be deemed more/as much banworthy as ghold, which has at least 4 sets to guess from at the beginning of the game, pushes steel's hazard stacking capability through the roof and has an ability that heavily restrict its counterplay ? How can you confidently say that kingambit crosses the line of brokenness, and that bisharp won't, when it will still have the support that steel provides ? Because in this post I see little about what makes kingambit broken, and more about how ghold is the mon that makes steel insufferable.

i think kingambit would be more of a matchup fish without gholdengo but it would still be similarly dumb, prob equivalent to espathra now.

Why ? As I've said, you have natural way to deal with it in every type, so how would it be matchup fish ? Unless you're fishing for psychic/ghost for some god forsaken reason ?

also we HAVE to stop with the "gambit isn't broken cause you have to play good to win with it" argument. if "playing good" just means executing ur most obvious game plan then you have to play good to win with every mon! otherwise, steel's game plan is very much a single player exercise and it doesn't take much effort to execute at all

That's a baseless claim. You are saying that the steel player can win regardless of their opponent ? By just executing an obvious gameplan ? When has that ever been true ?
No offense to you twinkay, but what you're saying in this paragraph looks very dumb to me. In a kingambit vs no kingambit matchup, if the better playing player is the one winning, then kingambit is by definition not broken, and that's what I have seen in about every steel games in the last mpl.

i think what gets people confused is that just because kingambit isn't outright sweeping doesn't mean it didn't impact the game.

And I think people voting ban are confused about what makes steel do strong in the first place. The general consensus that I've seen on the ban side in this thread is that steel is too good right now, so we should ban kingambit, because it sweeps game, how come if the mon is so broken, it doesn't hold the same kind of impact in dark, when the type also has a fighting immunity and good hazard support? Gholdengo, to me, holds much more impact on a game that kingambit does.

The way I see it is that, if you think gholdengo + kingambit is too much to handle, I would like to see actual argument as to why we should ban kingambit and not gholdengo. Just because the community gave it a higher in the last tiering survey ? I think what gets people confused is that just because gholdengo isn't outright sweeping doesn't mean it didn't impact the game. Gambit is a cleaner, when steel wins, it will more often than not be because gambit sweeped near the end, and people mistake that for a proof that gambit is the problem when it wouldn't be nearly as potent if say, gholdengo didn't exist.

 

[GrayJou]

Last day of suspect laddering before vote I think so I'll make another post on a few things I saw

I had half an aneurism reading this. If the argument is that both Psy or Ghost aren't being as represented as they would be otherwise, I'd simply point out that both types have a number of ways of dealing with Gambit. Psy has a number of mons that can Vacuum Wave, Will o Wisp, Psy Terrain prevents sucker form being used, Sub Hoopa U is a common enough set. Ghost has fast skele, Mimi, multiple sub-will o users, colbur users, etc. If you replaced Gambit on dark with any mon I don't think it would inherently make the mu easier for Psy or Ghost, and similarly I think Steel's hazard stack + support is powerful enough that simply replacing Gambit with Bisharp is enough to pretty much keep the ghost mu the same with a sucker endgame.

I don't want to be that guy but, only Gardevoir, Gallade, Mew, Medicham and Braviary-Hisui learn Vaccum Wave. None of them can kill gambit with the most damaging setting reliably with that move.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 320-380 (93.8 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Braviary is imposible to use although is the only mon in psychic that has any sort of hazard removal in defog. And for Will-o-wisp, only Armarouge, ralts evolutions, delphox and mew learn it. To say that psychic can counter it without specifically intending to is definitely not true. I personally climbed to the top within the low ladder tour with psychic and it is not the case. The only mon that can realiably deal with Gambit is Gallade, who doesn't have enough bulk to tank a sucker punch without any attack boosts

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Gallade: 240-283 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Even with full defense EVs, Gallade can die. So in practice one needs both psychic terrain and Gallade to deal with it. Not only that, but choice items in psychic can take a lot of momentum because of dark switch-ins. This is even worse at the presence of Kingambit who can secure a swords dance by just finding a choiced mon with either a psychic move or any other one that won't kill it.

The conditions are too specific, not only have you to keep the mon that can counter it healthy, you also have to mind the slightest amount of hazards as well as making sure that Kingambit doesn't randomly switch in and manages to get a swords dance in which case is completely coinflip or completely lost. The care one has to take to trully deal with that mon is only matched with Goldeengo, Flutter Mane and Gouging Fire. However, there are mons that shut goldeengo and FM with no question, rarely this happens for Gambit, specially in psychic. Psychic needs to mindly asess how to deal with Gambit considerably, more than even Archaludon, Gholdengo, Flutter Mane and Gouging Fire

I also played hundred of games with grass and it's totally not easy to deal with gambit. Breloom tends to have almost all or almost no remaining HP. With the limited options of hazard removal in grass, it's not simple to keem Breloom in the pocket because Kingambit exists. Lilligant-H needs to much support to do anything and any mon with sashes, priority moves can chip her easily. Ogerpon takes at least 90% damage from SP, Lilligant 52%. So in practice one needs to keep one of those Grass Fighting in the pocket, with no damage taken, when these mons get chipped constantly from setting up, priority moves, etc. The only flexible counter in grass for Gambit is Breloom and it's more of an early game mon. Grass sun teams suffer because stronger mons from other types get boosted.

For mono bug it is also not particularly easy to deal with Gambit. In my experience the matchup vs Dark is easy because U-turn and first impression do so much that you end up with 4 mons vs gambit and you'll most likely win. Foretress can body press it, you can switch in rocky helmet or shuffle priority moves.

For Electric I agree. Rarely had any problem with gambit.

For Rock, which seems like you overlooked, from Sucker Punch 5 stacks, Arcanine-H takes >84%, Ogerpon takes >90%, Garganacl does not outspeed + Body Press only deals 80% damage to Gambit, Rhyperior does not quite kill it + can be outsped + Rhyperior is almost never full health. Glimmora does not kill + Glimmora rarely survives late game.

Even with the possible counters, Gambit boosts and stats are too suffocating. Mons that can check him need to be very healthy, a lot of times in late stages of the game where their role does not really happen. Yes, Bisharp would be very different precisely because the options exist but aren't suffocated by ridiculous stats in Atk and bulk.

 

[GrayJou]

To add to my point. The calculations were done with an ATK+/SPD Gambit. The ability to kill gets even lower when EVs are invested in defenses or hp.
It's a very toxic statchecker with very high stats

 

[R.B.G.]

I personally believe that Kingambit is quite broken, not as broken as Gouging Fire or Iron Valiant, but broken in the sense that it can and has crippled the Ghost type and part of Psychic type

This just isn't true. Kingambit dies to Boulder provided Psychic Terrain is up. It's a pretty simple out that requires you to change nothing about the standard Psychic build. Indeedee is a Ghost immunity + has Healing Wish as well so it's not like Gambit is the only reason Psychic is running it. The rest of that matchup is just Hatterene trying to keep spikes away while Hoopa breaks down the immunity core.

As for Ghost there's nothing Gambit really does in that matchup that Bisharp doesn't also do besides eat an unboosted Drain Punch. That type has major issues elsewhere independent of Gambit and struggles against Goodra-H anyway.

I strongly believe there is ZERO skill needed to use it, and to cause havoc with it on either Dark or Steel teams. It has MANY coverage moves to get rid of many of its checks and threats, which van be useful in most scenarios for the team that its on, however,

Gambit's coverage is Low Kick.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I don't want to be that guy but, only Gardevoir, Gallade, Mew, Medicham and Braviary-Hisui learn Vaccum Wave. None of them can kill gambit with the most damaging setting reliably with that move.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 320-380 (93.8 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Braviary is imposible to use although is the only mon in psychic that has any sort of hazard removal in defog. And for Will-o-wisp, only Armarouge, ralts evolutions, delphox and mew learn it. To say that psychic can counter it without specifically intending to is definitely not true. I personally climbed to the top within the low ladder tour with psychic and it is not the case. The only mon that can realiably deal with Gambit is Gallade, who doesn't have enough bulk to tank a sucker punch without any attack boosts

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Gallade: 240-283 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Even with full defense EVs, Gallade can die. So in practice one needs both psychic terrain and Gallade to deal with it. Not only that, but choice items in psychic can take a lot of momentum because of dark switch-ins. This is even worse at the presence of Kingambit who can secure a swords dance by just finding a choiced mon with either a psychic move or any other one that won't kill it.

The conditions are too specific, not only have you to keep the mon that can counter it healthy, you also have to mind the slightest amount of hazards as well as making sure that Kingambit doesn't randomly switch in and manages to get a swords dance in which case is completely coinflip or completely lost. The care one has to take to trully deal with that mon is only matched with Goldeengo, Flutter Mane and Gouging Fire. However, there are mons that shut goldeengo and FM with no question, rarely this happens for Gambit, specially in psychic. Psychic needs to mindly asess how to deal with Gambit considerably, more than even Archaludon, Gholdengo, Flutter Mane and Gouging Fire

I also played hundred of games with grass and it's totally not easy to deal with gambit. Breloom tends to have almost all or almost no remaining HP. With the limited options of hazard removal in grass, it's not simple to keem Breloom in the pocket because Kingambit exists. Lilligant-H needs to much support to do anything and any mon with sashes, priority moves can chip her easily. Ogerpon takes at least 90% damage from SP, Lilligant 52%. So in practice one needs to keep one of those Grass Fighting in the pocket, with no damage taken, when these mons get chipped constantly from setting up, priority moves, etc. The only flexible counter in grass for Gambit is Breloom and it's more of an early game mon. Grass sun teams suffer because stronger mons from other types get boosted.

For mono bug it is also not particularly easy to deal with Gambit. In my experience the matchup vs Dark is easy because U-turn and first impression do so much that you end up with 4 mons vs gambit and you'll most likely win. Foretress can body press it, you can switch in rocky helmet or shuffle priority moves.

For Electric I agree. Rarely had any problem with gambit.

For Rock, which seems like you overlooked, from Sucker Punch 5 stacks, Arcanine-H takes >84%, Ogerpon takes >90%, Garganacl does not outspeed + Body Press only deals 80% damage to Gambit, Rhyperior does not quite kill it + can be outsped + Rhyperior is almost never full health. Glimmora does not kill + Glimmora rarely survives late game.

Even with the possible counters, Gambit boosts and stats are too suffocating. Mons that can check him need to be very healthy, a lot of times in late stages of the game where their role does not really happen. Yes, Bisharp would be very different precisely because the options exist but aren't suffocated by ridiculous stats in Atk and bulk.

I don't feel like replying to all of this but you spent 5 paragraphs hyperfocusing on vacuum wave and 0 hp/252 defense gallade as ways to handle Gambit, not only ignoring the other options I listed which I personally consider far more valuable - whether it be psy terrain with the numerous mons that can ko like Iron Boulder or Gallade, or Sub Hoopa U which not only runs bulky but also carries D Punch, to sketchier or one time options like BPress Slowbro which can become a wincon with ID, Wisp Users, Encore mons, the fact I consider Screens Psy one of the better builds for the type as well which offers way more leniency with handling it.

Edit: I didn't even realize this at first, but even for the Vacuum Wave argument your Gardevoir calc is wrong. Supreme Overlord affects special attacks, and Gardevoir runs trace. Even with just 1 stack the Gardevoir calc you listed would actually be a guaranteed KO on Gambit in that calc. With that in mind, even just 3 stacks guarantees bulky Gambit dies from Vac Wave.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Gardevoir Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Grass is notorious for lacking proper options and even then you not only list a direct answer (Breloom), but completely misrepresent Breloom as an early game mon in the Dark/Steel mus as if it's not a phenomenal late game cleaner. Grass also pretty commonly runs Low Kick Meow from what I'd seen, always has a grass/fighting and would regardless of Kingambit, has options like Spore Amoong, etc. What's crazy is that even though Grass is a shite type, one of its perks it's well known for is it's ability to handle the Steel matchup with it's threats, and yet you try and pass on it's flaws in options and defensive core as though Grass is directly suffering from the existence of Gambit. Grass also has encore options, from Ogerpon to Whimsi, but the fact we're not seeing that kinda insinuates to me it's not necessary to bring.

You said "it's not particularly easy to deal with gambit" for bug then contradict yourself so I'll presume a typo, especially since Bug has a shitload of answers without even needing mons like BPress Forre as you said.

For Rock, from what it seems you overlooked, if we're assuming Bulky Rhyperior then 5 stack Iron Head doesn't 2hko from full. Not only that but for another bottom tier type with 6 mon syndrome you somehow overlook just about every option that Rock has to deal with Gambit. You have Terrakion. I will repeat, you have a Terrakion. You have Coalossal as an option - which lives +2 5 stack black glasses Kingambit by the way, and can wisp while also providing utility outside of Gambit. Rhyperior with Weakness Policy isn't rare whatsoever - in which case getting hit fully means a Gambit dies, some Rhyperiors also run counter, if we assume no hazards on your side then Ogerpon lives even +2 with sturdy and OHKOs - I'll also point out Encore Ogerpon isn't really unheard of. All the while there are more uncommon sets like Specs TTar which fully Ohkos Gambit as well.

 

[schwipper]

I was thinking about staying out of this entire conversation, but since i did go on a rant yesterday in the monotype room i will just voice a few things here. I am neither fully pro nor fully anti ban. I am currently leaning towards ban myself, but as i said, i have yet to actually decide and when the vote is up we will see what i will do. With that said, here a few thoughts:
"Oh, Gambit itself is not the Problem, why not ban something else on Steel"
with People using this argument to share their views on other mons, it's important to remember that in two back to back surveys, gambit got far higher support for tiering actions than any other steel type. It is, very clearly so, the steel type the community sees as a major issue in the Metagame. It's high damage potential, which can't be stopped by unaware, allows it to breaks even the toughest of walls while it's natural bulk let's it takes hit to get off Sworddances or even not engage in sucker 50/50s and just clicking a different attack to kill the opponent. Even with 0 defense and HP, Kingambit takes powerful SE stabs like Iron Treads EQ, it's not even a roll it just tanks that from full (252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
It's special defense is where you will catch it out more easily. In fact, that goes for the entire steel typing right now, special walls are hard to find for steel which is precicely why some of the examples used to answer gambit are very good into steel in general, since steel just doesn't have the best choices for special defenses right now. Atleast not in the big 6 that are used most commonly. Gambit got it's high support because of it's tough physical bulk and it's very solid damage output, the combination of both give it plenty of options to setup.

"just run body press or (insert super specific specs mon here)"
This feels just odd to me as a solution. If your counterplay is one specific move which is, from most mons, not even ensured to ko it, then that more than shows unhealthy design. Or if you genuinly run, as wyvern said, specs ttar and Coalossal to deal with gambit, you lose out on A the value that you could have gotten from ttar without specs and B the slot that coalossal takes over just to not get demolished by Gambit. Tho Rock from my POV is just a bad case anyways, it shows the willingness to ignore how oppresive the mon actually is. And just to show my point, here are a few body presses or other revenge killers, you know, what we supposed to run to check the mon, which don't kill gambit or are a roll to kill:

160+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 328-388 (88.6 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO


8 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 336-400 (90.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(ability has to be baited out first for this to work, but stab body press not KO)

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 288-342 (77.8 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


204+ Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 316-376 (85.4 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 338-398 (91.3 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO


All these mons are used to kill Kingambit with atm, skarmory and zamazenta usually have to click iron defense first, which means they also have to be on high enough health to tank the fallen 5 kowtow cleave/iron Head/Low Kick or the +2 fallen 5 suckerpunch. for the revenge killers like scarf tusk, you also just die to iron head/low kick + sucker punch after you dropped to -1 defense from clicking headlong rush. We could say "oh but revenge kill means you already got chip on it" and "if you dont chip it you played poorly already" but at that point we just start ignoring the absurd bulk and damage for the sake of saying "play better". Shoutout to Zamazenta without ability casually not being able to ohko a mon it's suppsed to check 4 times over btw, but that calc is less relevant since fighting should never struggle with Gambit to begin with.

The ban sides strongest argument coming from Azick at the start of this entire thing and involving comparing monotype with OU is a tough one too, since in 99% of cases monotype will play way different than OU and the struggle OU faces with Gambit involves insanely flexible tera options and a far betteer support to the team.

No matter if you are Ban or DNB, both sides seem to overall agree that Steel seems very centralizing in the current Metagame. The question becomes what mon the specific sides see as an issue. If you believe Gambit should stay that's fine, but don't expect anyone to agree with Gholdengo or Archaludon (or Gliscor) to get nearly as high of a support for a ban than gambit gets just because you think it should. If i vote DNB it will be around the fact that gambit has counterplay in multiple forms, including defensive and offensive options for every type to allow them to deal with it on paper, if i vote Ban, it will be because Gambit's absurd bulk and damage let it overcome even some of the supposed checks and it's ability boosting the base damage of it's move allowing it to ignore even more common answers to setup cleaner like unaware mons.

 

[GrayJou]

I don't feel like replying to all of this but you spent 5 paragraphs hyperfocusing on vacuum wave and 0 hp/252 defense gallade as ways to handle Gambit, not only ignoring the other options I listed which I personally consider far more valuable - whether it be psy terrain with the numerous mons that can ko like Iron Boulder or Gallade, or Sub Hoopa U which not only runs bulky but also carries D Punch, to sketchier or one time options like BPress Slowbro which can become a wincon with ID, Wisp Users, Encore mons, the fact I consider Screens Psy one of the better builds for the type as well which offers way more leniency with handling it.

I did run fully defensive slowbro and it doesn't quite get the kill, the caculator confirms this. While Gambit will deal >96% to slowbro with Kowtow Cleave unless it hasn't used its Colbur Berry which is very unrealistic scenario, as if I put the mon on my pocket the whole game just to not kill with BP.

Edit: I didn't even realize this at first, but even for the Vacuum Wave argument your Gardevoir calc is wrong. Supreme Overlord affects special attacks, and Gardevoir runs trace. Even with just 1 stack the Gardevoir calc you listed would actually be a guaranteed KO on Gambit in that calc. With that in mind, even just 3 stacks guarantees bulky Gambit dies from Vac Wave.

I overlooked Trace, my mistake. However, my point remains of how precise you must be on your build to run specs in Gardevoir while also not it being already on the field (with another traced ability) to be able to get the kill

For Rock, from what it seems you overlooked, if we're assuming Bulky Rhyperior then 5 stack Iron Head doesn't 2hko from full. Not only that but for another bottom tier type with 6 mon syndrome you somehow overlook just about every option that Rock has to deal with Gambit. You have Terrakion. I will repeat, you have a Terrakion. You have Coalossal as an option - which lives +2 5 stack black glasses Kingambit by the way, and can wisp while also providing utility outside of Gambit. Rhyperior with Weakness Policy isn't rare whatsoever - in which case getting hit fully means a Gambit dies, some Rhyperiors also run counter, if we assume no hazards on your side then Ogerpon lives even +2 with sturdy and OHKOs - I'll also point out Encore Ogerpon isn't really unheard of. All the while there are more uncommon sets like Specs TTar which fully Ohkos Gambit as well.

Yes, Gambit does not 2hko Rhyperior from full. How often in a game do you have an untouched rhyperior with its weakness policy not consumed at the end of the game? How often can you see a Coalossal in high ladder ? Only hazard remove mon is Glimmora (and defog cleavor), who can't remove hazards against steel.

With all of the ideas on paper, there is still a reason why people voted most on gambit. It would be very strange to think that the same people that want it out have not tried to counter it with those options or have a skill issue. What I want you to consider is if in practice, Gambit raw stats permit counterplay out of specific conditions within the dynamics in battles.

I have not had lots of problems with the mon itself lately but I guess it's because I just accepted how ridiculous it is and seek to counter it. However, running low tier mons because they counter gambit and offer some utility doesn't really make it healthy for the game and limit a lot of the potential of teams. Having a mon that actually gets shutdown by its counters is way more healthy for the meta in general. This in conjuction with what
schwipper has said, to what I completely agree with.

 

[Rio Vidal]

voting is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-monotype-suspect-8-kingambit.3749700/