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Admire your perspective but I don't understand these arguments. If dumping on types that the mon is weak to is the only requirement then we can unban plenty of things right now. Bax wasn't overwhelming Steel, Fairy, Fighting, etc. single-handedly and that was banned with a vast majority.
When I made reference to the four (4) types that is weak to, I thought it was implied that I meant in the context of Ground and Normal teams versus Fighting, Grass, Ice and Water. But apparently this went over people's heads so I hope that helps.
Therefore is the presence of on Ground and Normal type teams such an oppressive force that Fighting-, Grass-, Ice-and Water-type teams can't win the favourable match-up? The calcs I provided suggest no.
It's no secret that I'm a Fighting enjoyer and I can assure you that the bear has never been an issue for my Fighting builds. If the bear was as broken as Ban voters are claiming, this statement would be false.
Also consider that Fighting has strong matchups into Dark, Ice, Steel and Normal - types that represent Pokemon highlighted on surveys #3 and #4 like and the aforementioned
It's for this reason that I consider Fighting to be Top 5 in type viability.
These views are also based on my actualexperience and resultsplaying the meta and not just "talking for the sake of talking".
My Fighting-type bias aside, if Ground and Normal teams featuring are unlikely to muscle past lesser SE types like Grass and Ice, I'm baffled as to how it's broken.
When I made reference to the four (4) types that is weak to, I thought it was implied that I meant in the context of Ground and Normal teams versus Fighting, Grass, Ice and Water. But apparently this went over people's heads so I hope that helps.
Therefore is the presence of on Ground and Normal type teams such an oppressive force that Fighting-, Grass-, Ice-and Water-type teams can't win the favourable match-up? The calcs I provided suggest no.
It's no secret that I'm a Fighting enjoyer and I can assure you that the bear has never been an issue for my Fighting builds. If the bear was as broken as Ban voters are claiming, this statement would be false.
Also consider that Fighting has strong matchups into Dark, Ice, Steel and Normal - types that represent Pokemon highlighted on surveys #3 and #4 like and the aforementioned
It's for this reason that I consider Fighting to be Top 5 in type viability.
These views are also based on my actualexperience and resultsplaying the meta and not just "talking for the sake of talking".
My Fighting-type bias aside, if Ground and Normal teams featuring are unlikely to muscle past lesser SE types like Grass and Ice, I'm baffled as to how it's broken.
I addressed most of these points already from the ground prospective in my post. The calcs you provided don't mean much when you have teammates that you'll always be using that can easily deal with the mons mentioned bar one. And again even in that match-up Bloodmoon is still very good. Ground has many tools to deal with ice and grass and the bear is useful against both types I literally brought up examples of both. Bax is useful in a disadvantageous match-up as well but it wasn't outright blowing up these types by itself. Look at the replays you linked with and respectively as an example. Both of them really don't do shit in this match-up except pick off something weakened with priority before getting sacked. I'm not even arguing that Bloodmoon is as broken as Bax but this standard doesn't make sense.
Bloodmoon is probably the least useful in the fighting matchup, at least for ground, so I'm not surprised at all that you haven't had an issue. The most it'll do is trade vs something since hardly anything can OHKO it. It makes sense, why would a slow wall-breaker be useful at all vs your build. Fighting is a very good type and I like the AV Gallade set you came up with a lot. However there's 17 other types you have to consider, not just the match-up where the mon is probably at its worst.
I addressed most of these points already from the ground prospective in my post. The calcs you provided don't mean much when you have teammates that you'll always be using that can easily deal with the mons mentioned bar one.
Bloodmoon is probably the least useful in the fighting matchup, at least for ground, so I'm not surprised at all that you haven't had an issue. The most it'll do is trade vs something since hardly anything can OHKO it. It makes sense, why would a slow wall-breaker be useful at all vs your build. Fighting is a very good type and I like the AV Gallade set you came up with a lot. However there's 17 other types you have to consider, not just the match-up where the mon is probably at its worst.
I think you keep missing the point so let me repeat. If is as broken as Ban voters claim then why does a "mid type" like Fighting (which nobody seems to rank in their top 5) not care about it whatsoever?
Furthermore I posit that types like Grass and Ice which are lowly ranked in type viability, don't care about bear either.
In stark contrast, Baxcalibur stll caused concern / builder planning for Fairy, Fire, Steel, Rock, Fighting and of course the #1 type in Dragon.
In my OP, I did calcs using Keldeo, Gallade, Sinistcha, Kyurem and Greninja - you do realise that I emphasised these are dual typed Pokemon, meaning that Fighting, Water, Psychic, Ghost, Grass, Dragon, Ice, Dark and Water can all run those sets, if they wanted?
Also any good team build preps for anti-setup, so those points about Calm Mind bear being restrictive in the builder are baffling, to say the least.
Meanwhile the Ban voters keep ignoring TheMaverrick's point that the vast majority of posts reference Ground bear and all but ignore normal bear. So is so banworthy and yet only 1 of its types matter?
During a discussion in the room chat yesterday, a well respected community member questioned how many voters take tiering policy into account, even those with the TC badge. I wonder the same..
As it stands voting equates to: anybody with a PS account -> ladder -> win more than you lose -> meet the reqs threshold -> vote whatever you want because of whatever reason you have.
Reading the tiering policy is not a voting requirement last I checked.
Heck, I voted in suspects #4 and #5 and haven't read the tiering policy since 2016.
Tiering policy is not a written guide on how to vote, its to help tiers guide their council when it comes to banning or suspect testing. A lot of this thread is just misunderstanding of what tiering policy actually is. Of course the intentions of every voter is not going to be seen whether or not they type the words Ban or Do Not Ban. Monotype is unique in that you can use a mon on multiple types, which would lead to many arguments of complex bans, which are mickey. I'm not council obvi so idk if this is the real reasoning as to why Monotype bans mons outright as opposed to seeing if its only OP on one type or another but even just considering that sounds horrible, and way too complicated for the tier. Yes, anyone can vote. The point of this thread is for people to discuss why they think or do not think the mon should be banned, which ideally would help more uninformed voters to decide which they think is best, so yeah bringing up whether or not Normal or Ground is good or bad is irrelevant
During a discussion in the room chat yesterday, a well respected community member questioned how many voters take tiering policy into account, even those with the TC badge. I wonder the same..
As it stands voting equates to: anybody with a PS account -> ladder -> win more than you lose -> meet the reqs threshold -> vote whatever you want because of whatever reason you have.
Reading the tiering policy is not a voting requirement last I checked.
people can vote what they want, there was never a requirement to read the tiering philosophy. however, a good argument to possibly sway uninformed voters is going to ultimately be based around the tiering philosophy, as it usually trumps arguments that do not. by the way, it's also linked in the original post of this thread, in the last paragraph, with notes to keep it in mind when discussing. with that being said, ursaluna bm is very much bannable for the reason that it is broken on ground, and not on normal. however, i honestly think it's broken on both- and i've already stated my case on that and concur with a lot of the other ban voters so i'm not going to excessively repeat myself.
Reading the DNB arguments has given me an aneurism, and some of the discussion has completely moved from the point till I feel like I'm reading a Gallade glaze piece which disingenuously responds to the point at hand, rather than anything which actually contributes to the discussion.
I was pretty on the fence before, but have found the DNB arguments don't focus so much on how Ursaluna-BM plays out in a game, but rather puts Ursa BM in specific scenarios to highlight the existence of checks - regardless of how some of these answers may play out in a game, or similarly, highlight answers which are nowhere near universal. Especially when discussing the types which struggle vs. Ursaluna BM.
Alot of the DNB discussion so far seems to have been polluted by people I completely forgot about already, that seem to argue situations such as "Keldeo forces out Ursaluna-BM into Clod, Gallade comes in on Clod, now what" are in any way relevant to the discussion of an Ursa ban.
The question of teammates was also brought into question, and of course this is relevant. The best example of this was when Gen 6 introduced the concept of "Type Bans", where mons that would otherwise be banned were allowed further use on a type which wasn't seen as as competitive, Aegislash being a prime example where Steel's immunity core caused it to get banned while usage was allowed on Ghost. In the context of Ursaluna-BloodMoon, recognizing that it's on a top type, and moreover than that, on two types with solid backbones is incredibly important. I'll also point out that for all the mons that people brought up as answers to Bloodmoon, only 1 even resembled a counter. Listing Greninja as an answer, for example, holds very little weight to me when you consider that not only does it lose the 1v1 once Ursa gets +1 - something which needs to be accounted for - but given that both Dark and Water have difficulty with hazards and Ground often runs hazardstack, the result in many of these interactions leaves Greninja in range to die from +1 Vacuum wave after switching in only once or twice. What we're looking at here with Ursaluna BloodMoon is an incredibly potent wallbreaker, furthered by it's ability to come in and out through a match thanks to it's typings defensive backbone. It's a mon that gives bulkier teams far more difficulty, and moreover than that it has phenomenal bulk and calm mind to complement it - which allows it to become an even greater threat against types such as Dark.
I also have seen very little from the DNB for the actual matchups that struggle vs. Ursaluna-BM. It's part of why the discourse so far feels so far off track. Who cares if Fighting has a Keldeo, Fighting has some of the best mus vs. both Normal and Ground, and running something like Gallade or Keldeo isn't going to be what makes a difference for beating Ursa BM when you can just sleep cheese with breloom and spam Technician Bullet Seed anyhow.
Ursa's bulk is incredible, even in these calculations from DNB, we're being presented with Specs and Band super effective. I mean imagine if the argument for Solgaleo to stay was "look, Landorus can OHKO the Calm Mind set with Earth Power". Simultaneously, we're told "team support" doesn't matter by these same randos with an argument, as though the fact that a wallbreaker having a switchin to another wallbreaker that beats it isn't in any way important. Every wallbreaker in this game has checks and mons which can ohko, and being unrestrained and capable of coming in multiple times during a match because of your strong backbone is all a wallbreaker could ever ask for.
It's also important to look at the health of the tier in the long term, for which I think Ursas ban would be most beneficial.
An an impartial voter, BAN deserves my vote based on argument (and vibes).
The point is the game is not just a 1v1 situation so completely discounting the support options from teammates is not a good idea. And this wasn't the case for previous suspects.
I think you keep missing the point so let me repeat. If is as broken as Ban voters claim then why does a "mid type" like Fighting (which nobody seems to rank in their top 5) not care about it whatsoever?
Furthermore I posit that types like Grass and Ice which are lowly ranked in type viability, don't care about bear either.
In stark contrast, Baxcalibur stll caused concern / builder planning for Fairy, Fire, Steel, Rock, Fighting and of course the #1 type in Dragon.
In my OP, I did calcs using Keldeo, Gallade, Sinistcha, Kyurem and Greninja - you do realise that I emphasised these are dual typed Pokemon, meaning that Fighting, Water, Psychic, Ghost, Grass, Dragon, Ice, Dark and Water can all run those sets, if they wanted?
Also any good team build preps for anti-setup, so those points about Calm Mind bear being restrictive in the builder are baffling, to say the least.
Meanwhile the Ban voters keep ignoring TheMaverrick's point that the vast majority of posts reference Ground bear and all but ignore normal bear. So is so banworthy and yet only 1 of its types matter?
I understood your point perfectly but I don't think fighting is "mid" at all so that point is irrelevant to me. I literally brought up reasons why grass and ice fear it lol. Bloodmoon has a favorable roll to OHKO Pao with vacuum wave and/or trade to kill Kyurem with Yache which is already used on high ladder. Those are the 2 best mons on ice and without one of them the type can fold like a lawn chair. On grass things like Meow, Ogerpon, etc. can't reliably OHKO and if they trade that's one big threat eliminated for good progress. Bloodmoon doesn't have to outright sweep these 2 to be a problem. Breaking walls with good positioning or trading favorably into almost anything is often enough. Of course 9 types have access to the mons you listed however the impacts of many of these can be greatly limited and some can be shaky solely depending on the sets and game state.
If you're dead-set DNB that's okay but again your experience as a fighting main is not reflective of most who will face off against Bloodmoon.
I'll end this here, I think it was good that we had this discussion though since this seemed pretty stale in the beginning.
Reading the DNB arguments has given me an aneurism, and some of the discussion has completely moved from the point till I feel like I'm reading a Gallade glaze piece
Doesn't sound like you were on "the fence", no one is arguing there's not a lot of strong pokes around. But like the tiering survey choosing not the top poke, people's minds might be set.
It would have been nice to hear an explanation from Ttk about the analysis, and how their argument trashed the bm set and then the usage stats completely countered the points made.
I'm going to share my point of view concerning Ursaluna-B.
First of all, I only played Ursaluna-B during my reqs to try to have the most objective idea on this Pokemon.
Strong points
Physical bulk.
Wonderfull SpA.
Ability.
Move: Blood Moon
Health move + Calm Mind.
Teammates.
Weakness:
Special bulk.
Here are resumed strong points and weakness of Ursaluna-B.
As u can see, I only list one weakness, indeed, Ursaluna-B is a wonderful Pokemon with only a bad Special bulk.
This weakness may be obsolete as it can set up with Calm Mind and the fact that Ground and Normal types have both best special walls in Monotype (Clodsire/Blissey).
So, this is the perfect translation to talk about Teammates.
Why Teammates?
Because in each type, u can cover easily Ursaluna weaknessess - Ground type: Clodsire (Water/Ground moves), Mamoswine/Iron T for Ice moves, Gliscor/Landorus (Fighting moves). Which is really good as u can just go with URsaluna to do one Blood Moon and next switchout safely). - Normal type: Zoroark/Braviary (Fighting moves), Blissey tank every weaknesses in special, Porygon2 for physical efficient moves.
So, that's the first thing to point, U can make some holes with Ursaluna and its power and switch out mostly without pain.
Its physical bulk helps its teammates to which give a great core for teams overall.
Now, one of the thing the most powerfull on Ursa is its ability paired with Blood Moon (140 BP) move and its SpA (135).
Indeed, u don't have safe switchin for that because of Mind's eye.
Only 3 Pokemon are able to resist to this Epower/Bloodmoon coverage which are Corviknight/Skarmory/Minior.
2 of them are revelants. And these 2 Pokemon are theatened with Epower if they use Roost move.
Special sponge like Blissey and Clodsire aren't answers too because for the first one, u can set up easily as Ursaluna's Hp and the second one is mainly 2HKO by Epower/Blood Moon. So, u don't have safe switchin for Ursaluna.
Concerning sets, usually u face 2 sets:
- Set up CM mostly in Normal type.
- Wallbreaker 3 moves + Recovery move in Ground type.
It's pretty predictible but still annoying because of points named before.
U can't be surprised but u know u will have pain to kill it.
How to kill Ursaluna?
There isnt many ways to kill it:
- Special user hitting strong.
- Super efficient physical and strong moves if Ursaluna is at the range of kill
252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Power Whip vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 288-342 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 288-338 (68.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 380-450 (90.2 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 303-357 (71.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 286-338 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 384-452 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 254-302 (60.3 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon in Sun: 229-270 (54.3 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 216 HP / 224+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 338-402 (80.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Every of these Pokemon are killed by Ursa (excepting Ogerpon-H).
Why is Ursaluna-B still present in the metagame?
In my opinion, the fact Ursaluna-B is still here, is because it helps to deal against others broken mons (Chien Pao, Kingambit, Gouging Fire (Ogerpon's?)) which try to balance it but in the wrong way.
If we ban Ursaluna-B, we've to act faster to ban others broken Pokemon before the MPL (if possible), otherwise I don't think it will be a cool metagame to play competitive.
So, what will be my vote?
I'm now convinced I will vote BAN for reasons I gave and with time I played/faced Ursaluna-B in Ladder or in tours but others bans have to follow.
But please, keep going ahead to ban broken Pokemon and not letting community to have a reqs every 2 months.
Reading the DNB arguments has given me an aneurism, and some of the discussion has completely moved from the point till I feel like I'm reading a Gallade glaze piece which disingenuously responds to the point at hand, rather than anything which actually contributes to the discussion.
Of course the person who made this comment took the bait and quoted my OP in this thread.
The additional purpose of me playing devil's advocate was to highlight the absurdity of the perennial war that happens between "team ban" and "team DNB"
It's not a sports game, why do you care so much about "picking a side" and "ensuring you side wins", to the extent of being toxic and abrasive to others with opposing views.
People are entitled to express their opinion without fear of ridicule and whether you agree or disagree
It takes very little effort to show you are a decent human being by respectfully disagreeing with views that oppose your own
It's almost as if voting is a free and democratic process, for all who meet the qualification criteria
The moderated forum is literally called "Blind Voting" and yet so much concern is given to the views of others when it doesn't even matter
It's a Pokemon with higher SpA than Flutter Mane (because we use Modest), using stronger moves than Flutter Mane. This allows it to ravage bulkier teams, where every time it comes in somebody will be having a very bad day.
For comparison:
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Toxapex: 148-175 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Toxapex: 283-334 (93.3 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon's Blood Moon deals similar damage to two Shadow Balls from Flutter Mane. (Actually, in this example, Earth Power is even better; it easily OHKOs the Toxapex, which is not something you hear every day.)
The surprise element is also important. In Ursaluna-BM's high ladder usage stats, Choice Specs is virtually unseen and has been ignominiously relegated to the "Other" category of items on both types.
So you end up with folks running calcs expecting a "normal" set...
216+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Hippowdon: 280-331 (66.6 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tiering policy is not a written guide on how to vote, its to help tiers guide their council when it comes to banning or suspect testing. A lot of this thread is just misunderstanding of what tiering policy actually is. Of course the intentions of every voter is not going to be seen whether or not they type the words Ban or Do Not Ban. Monotype is unique in that you can use a mon on multiple types, which would lead to many arguments of complex bans, which are mickey. I'm not council obvi so idk if this is the real reasoning as to why Monotype bans mons outright as opposed to seeing if its only OP on one type or another but even just considering that sounds horrible, and way too complicated for the tier. Yes, anyone can vote. The point of this thread is for people to discuss why they think or do not think the mon should be banned, which ideally would help more uninformed voters to decide which they think is best, so yeah bringing up whether or not Normal or Ground is good or bad is irrelevant
With the lack of evidence presented against, normal isn't an issue with the other powerful types clearly dominating right now, ethreals post shows the completeness of ground and why it's a top type.
Looking at the earlier posted replays, it shows bm not doing what a lot of the arguments against it were. Specs clearly wouldn't get that kind of success on normal
is weak to, I thought it was implied that I meant in the context of Ground and Normal teams versus Fighting, Grass, Ice and Water. But apparently this went over people's heads so I hope that helps.
and the aforementioned 
