Suspect SV AAA Suspect #5: Haunted (Zoroark-H and Gengar)

[UT]

​

WHY:
Following the recent tiering survey, the AAA council held a vote and decided to put both Zoroark-H and Gengar up for suspect testing!

First, their similarities: Ghost is a historically fantastic offensive typing, as Shadow Ball + Focus Blast provides nearly-perfect neutral coverage (ironically, only failing to hit Zoroark-H), allowing both mons great flexibility in their other two moveslots. They also boast an above-average Speed tier at 110 and Nasty Plot, putting tremendous pressure on defensive cores with only a single turn of setup. With no shortage of viable abilities to boost their power further, they are very difficult to consistently switch into without dedicated sets like Bulletproof or Purifying Salt.

Zoroark-H has a bevy of utility moves at its disposal, most notably Knock Off and U-turn, allowing to support teammates with item removal and pivoting. It can also credibly run a mixed attacker set, as Sheer Force Body Slam reliably hits otherwise reliable checks like Blissey and Clodsire. It is perhaps most infamous for its Magic Guard + Life Orb set, which utilizes Will-O-Wisp + Hex to wear down and break through teams. It can also run more traditional sets like Nasty Plot with Sheer Force + Life Orb or Choice item + U-turn.

Gengar boasts even higher Special Attack and a Fairy-destroying secondary STAB typing, plus its own albeit rarely-seen support moves like Disable and Encore. Its all-out attacker sets also pack valuable coverage moves like Energy Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt, allowing it to more reliably target foes like Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon, and Toxapex; Thunderbolt also has great synergy with Hadron Engine. While Gengar tends to opt for Sheer Force + Life Orb or Choice item sets to overwhelm the opposing team with its power + coverage, it can also explore Trick + Black Sludge and immunity ability sets to mess up dedicated counterplay like RegenVest or shore up a team-wide weakness.

The Ghosts are far from perfect, however. They are both exceedingly frail, fast but not fast, and outside of their immunities provide very little defensive synergy. While Ghost has amazing neutral coverage, it has poor super effective coverage, meaning they can usually 2HKO everything but not always OHKO bulkier targets right off the bat. Most of their sets have hard stops like Bulletproof or Purifying Salt and soft checks like Regenerator Roaring Moon that force them to be prediction-reliant. While they feast against opposing balance teams, both stall and hyper offense can largely handle them, and they provide very little value in those matchups.

With all that being said, the Ghosts are very spooky polarizing, and with support both in the tiering survey and inside the council, it's suspsect time!

​

How (Suspect Details):
During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:

• Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, April 21st) with "AAAH [Nick]"--for example, I could create one called "AAAH UT" to ladder with. Having the prefix at the beginning of your alt name is mandatory, AKA not in the middle (e.g. The AAAH Man) and not at the end (e.g. The AAAH).​
• To qualify for voting, your alt must meet the required GXE and games played threshold; it starts at 80% GXE at 25 games, down to 76% GXE at 45+ games.
  

  Table of Reqs

  
• Both Gengar and Zoroark-H will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.​
• The suspect test will go for two weeks and end on Tuesday, May 9th at 10:00 AM GMT -4.​
• When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Zoroark-H or Gengar should be banned (Optional)​
• It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)​

With that all of that being said, it's suspect time! As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.

Tagging Kris for implementation

 

[cumps]

confirming as AAAH reputation
team used
pretty much same as last time except for power gem on meow for talonflame which I ~did not click once~

undecided rn! didn't have too much trouble with the ghosts during my run except for one MGLO mixed hizo. that thing is scary.

edit: Voting BAN on hizo for two main reasons. The first is that hizo has the ability to run mixed to great effect, with knock, u-turn, body slam etc. Gengar's only viable physical attack being ice punch means that special checks like purifying salt clod, unaware bliss etc. actually can check it (although those admittedly really only fit on hard stall). The second is that hizo has that extra ghost immunity to help it switch into things. Like the OP says, the ghosts can absolutely demolish balance but struggle against offense. The ability to switch in on shadow ball/hex can often net it one or more kills that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Still not sure about gengar, leaning DNB. Obviously it's very powerful, and as a balance spammer I do have trouble against it, but while using it I've had so many games where it's just never able to hit the field. I also think it relies on hitting focus blast more than hizo does (mainly b/c hizo can knock or u-turn to make progress against ghost resists) and I think it's good for offensive teams to have a non-moth option to clear tspikes. At the same time, hizo leaving and gengar staying would allow gar to spam shadow ball even more freely than it does now, so I could also see the value of its ban.

 

[choicebadkyurem]

Imo Ghosts should be banned but gar is a symptom of a bigger issue that being Hadron Engine and Beads of Ruin not being banned so yes ban the Ghosts, but a Hadron Engine and Beads of Ruin Qb afterwords would be nice to see. Sorry for short post didnt want to go too in depth might when i get reqs idfk.

 

[Xceloh]

confirming as diamond hoe

 

[Lasen]

EU players can't use Gengar.

 

[Tanny89k]

Team used:

Of the two, I definitely think Zoroark-H is more overbearing, what with it being able to come in on opposing Ghosts, pivot with U-turn, and go mixed. Gengar has to work a lot harder to come in and is more easily answered, though it's still a very dangerous wallbreaker that forces balance teams to either bring a dedicated check or play very carefully around it. I'm definitely voting Ban on Zoro-H. Still unsure on Gengar, though leaning toward Ban.

 

[PociekMociek]

goofy aaah suspect
gengar and horoark seem broke in theory in practise theyre mid prolly voting DNB
spam spdef corv
spam geysers band pao not those goofy 110 speed ghosts

 

[The Number Man]

confirming

 

[Giagantic]

Tilted Laddering FTL!

Will be voting ban, both ghosts are too good at breaking 99% of switchins and even if they don't 2hko they get the pokemon down to a point where they will be next time it comes in.

Used 2 teams, one is my standard one:
Team 1:
Team 2: :

Team 2 is a bit spicier then team 1.

 

[Tranquility]

Confirming as AAAH Tranq

Both are really strong and have the tools to beat their "checks" (DGleam for gar, icy wind/body slam for Hizoro). Also I think the defensive utility especially for Zoro is underrated and can switch into things, will likely be voting ban but I'm willing to hear other arguments.



Team I used, pretty basic for the current meta with 2 special attackers, meow for speed control and a defensive backbone of chomp/corv/tail. s/o Giagantic for being my only loss.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

i spend both fri/sat laddering with one "standard" team and my old HO but with pao instead of dnite, didn't work, hariyama is fucking broken use that LMAO

likely voting ban on these. raw power is through the roof and these can smash through basically any wall they want to, similar situation to dnite in having the coverage to beat basically every wall but these have more options and can usually fit more on a set. also similar to dnite, the "best counter" (purifying salt stuff) is a luxury only fat / stall can afford. the more i think about it the more these seem like valiant lite

also gengar gets ice punch, so if you have a spare moveslot on sflo then you can opt to not be walled by chomp (it does more than dgleam, even with 0- atk on gar and no AV on chomp)

 

[Plas]

Shoutout Diego

 

[cjw405]

Zoroark: Requires like 3 walls to beat and you can still lose get it out.
Gengar: Not as broken but still can ruin you with a surprise set/coverage so ban it.

 

[LoSconosciuto]

cumps your team is unstoppable (almost lost because power gem doesn't oneshot tflame, yes i clicked it)

 

[Aikotoba]

Confirming as AAAH WE

Please get H-Zoroark outta here

 

[LordBox]

Scream Tail is a pokemon.



Team I used for most of the suspect. I got off to a rough start in the very beginning with different balance, fat and HO teams. I eventually settled with this team and despite the initial losses I committed to the account since I won a very long game against Alex on it and making new accounts was an annoying loop that many have been stuck in. I managed to get onto a long winning streak and eek out enough for the reqs anyway. Team is eerily similar to Tranquility's team just a bit up but it was a team I made a while back using the generic core I always use. Slither Wing is an extremely GOATed mon btw.

For my opinions on the Ghosts, I will be voting BAN. SFLO sets with just 3 moves (NP, SBall, Focus Blast) cover a lot of the meta (Garg, Ting-Lu, ScreamTail, etc) and can run basically whatever in their 4th moveslot. Particularly now that people are now running Icy Wind on both Ghosts which makes their most common blanket check, RegenVest Chomp, useless as it gets OHKO'd by +2 Icy Wind. A lot of other options can be run like Toxic, Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Will-O-Wisp, Hex, Taunt, U-turn, Knock Off, Body Slam to nullify checks like Unaware Blissey, RegenVest Tinkaton and Bulletproof Iron Treads. Zoroark-Hisui in particular has an entire set it can run that can essentially win against any defensive check in the long-term, MGLO with Hex, Knock, U-turn and Wisp (2HKO RegenVest Chomp/Tinkaton after Knock and Wisp). Regularly people sacrifice 70-80% of their Corviknight's HP because they don't have better options and the best check in the tier to the Ghosts, speed-invested Roaring Moon isn't an amazing check at all given FBlast on the switch does 65-80 and you have an appreciable loss in bulk to check other stuff + U-turn Zoro-H can bully it down. They are fast enough to easily clean after the faster mons are gone and be uncontested against bulkier teams and I don't think the current outs to the Ghosts are particularly healthy in comparison to other slower breakers.

Extra note: Norm Gengar can actually be really annoying against bulkier and slower teams with proper play with how it can force switches, so another reason to get rid of them.

 

[Murphy Lawden]

Fun tier.

Both ghosts have almost perfect coverage in shadow ball and focus blast. In addition to that hisuian zoroark has access to flamethrower which lets it beat would be counter like bulletproof treads. It also has an excellent defensive typing too which lets it use it's breaking power effectively. Also other than sheer force sets, specs tinted lens sets is also good (and underrated i think) plus it can also trick a specs to wall essentially making it useless.
Gengar is more easily manageable, the sheer force sets gets completely walled by bulletproof treads. However other than that mu, it puts huge pressure of balance. Also Hadron Engine(why is that ability still allowed again?) sets have insane raw power plus it can just trick a specs or scarf to a wall(happened to me that's why always run two counters) making them useless. So, yea definitely Voting for Ban on both of them.

I was running a HO team but later i swapped to two almost identical stall teams with a few changes.
Team 1:
Team 2:

 

[itsIzumi]

Confirming as AAAHp

 

[gastlies]

Confirming as AAAH im scared

 

[Hera]

The Table stall moment (also SD Chomp is broken, use it more)

Very late for me so I'll make this quick. Zoro-H is hella dumb, it's got like 3 different sets (SFLO, MGLO, Guts) with tons of inherent moveslot options like Icy Wind to beat specific checks that it can run with very little opportunity cost, and each of these sets have different checks. MGLO in particular has nothing long-term that can deal with it, so your only consistent counterplay is out-offensing it with bad Dark-types like Mewoscarda. It's also got KnockTurn so it can wear down checks to another set simply by slotting those two moves on it. Gengar is a mon I actually don't think it's broken; in fact, I think it's a healthy breaker balanced by its lack of reliable lure options, being a momentum sink, and set rigidness. Yeah Gengar does have lure sets like Corrison SubToxic or Triage Drain Punch, but these are very bad and give up the general utility and breaking power that something like SFLO or even Specs provides. I think having at least one breaker like Gengar is a good thing for the tier; this should have been Iron Moth suspected instead, but I digress.

Ceruledge is more broken than either of these btw, just saying.

 

[cat]

https://pokepast.es/5e655ce2ea4dee59 <-- team used, did very well with https://pokepast.es/3cf8bba81346c0d5 early but lost to horrible MUs

ban the ghosts lol, sure i advocated for sflo hizo long ago but it flew too close to the sun

 

[Osake]

French will know

Used this team which is quite cool if you're using your brain (which I'm not) and has tools to beat everything, I plan on doing a sample submissions with it esp. since it doesn't use shitty things like Bulletproof to deal with the ghosts so it'll still be viable if they're banned.

Unsure of what I'll vote, they def are strong but you usally can play around depending on the set and "raw" breakers (specs SFLO) are unable to make progress when facing a counter/if you get the right read and its not that easy to bring them on the field (esp Gengar, which is less good than HZoro bc it relies a lot more on predicts). However 90% of the players I faced with HZoro and gengar (not just now but in general) play terribly so I never see how it goes against a well played HZoro but.. if you need to play them well, I guess they aren't that broken. Still leaning for ban, at least for HZoro, bc its too versatile and bc they can make absurd progress, but I'll see.

Very late for me so I'll make this quick. Zoro-H is hella dumb, it's got like 3 different sets (SFLO, MGLO, Guts) with tons of inherent moveslot options like Icy Wind to beat specific checks that it can run with very little opportunity cost, and each of these sets have different checks. MGLO in particular has nothing long-term that can deal with it, so your only consistent counterplay is out-offensing it with bad Dark-types like Mewoscarda. It's also got KnockTurn so it can wear down checks to another set simply by slotting those two moves on it. Gengar is a mon I actually don't think it's broken; in fact, I think it's a healthy breaker balanced by its lack of reliable lure options, being a momentum sink, and set rigidness. Yeah Gengar does have lure sets like Corrison SubToxic or Triage Drain Punch, but these are very bad and give up the general utility and breaking power that something like SFLO or even Specs provides. I think having at least one breaker like Gengar is a good thing for the tier; this should have been Iron Moth suspected instead, but I digress.

Ceruledge is more broken than either of these btw, just saying. Also council members should really start laddering for reqs, I get people have lives but it's weird to see the first two reqs in the suspect not be by Isaiah and UT.

Answering to this quickly since I'm there :
-Guts HZoro is nothing but bad
-Triage Drain Punch Gengar is like, the worst set I've ever seen, I kinda agree that Gengar is less broken than HZoro and if only one of them should stay, it would definitely be Gengar, but mentioning Triage Drain Punch (which doesn't even OHKO Chien Pao so on the scale of the uselessness it's a 10) and not Normalize Gengar is a fake argument (Corrosion Gengar isn't really good either but ok)
-Ceruledge isn't broken. You have Garchomp, HZoro, many fast threats that don't die on Sneak (Pao, Kilo, Meow, RMoon...) Well Baked Body stuff running around, it takes 25% on Rocks or you're doing way less damage, Kingambit, etc, so no it isn't broken, you're just running a bad stall for the sake of using Avalugg with 5 mons that auto-lose to Ceruledge and are unable to damage it outside of Chomp, yes it does well against your team, no it is not broken, at all. I'm not saying it's bad, I love the mon. But calling it broken is just wrong (and using Torkoal as an argument on why a mon is broken means nothing too, it's Torkoal lol). If you want to mention WoW, then you lack coverage and you'll be way less effective vs many things, so at the end of the day you're choosing your MU and not even straight winning if you get the wrong one, it's not a problem. (also not the place to talk of this anyway, we're talking of HZoro and Gengar only)
-idk why you mentionned UT and Isaiah, it's a non-issue, but ok

really cool team by cumps btw, cool idea of Brave Bird Quaqua (which I stole), Power Gem Meow though..

 

[Alexender]

.

Team if anyone wants it: https://pokepast.es/d63e4c63fee224c6

 

[Hera]

Answering to this quickly since I'm there :
-Guts HZoro is nothing but bad
-Triage Drain Punch Gengar is like, the worst set I've ever seen, I kinda agree that Gengar is less broken than HZoro and if only one of them should stay, it would definitely be Gengar, but mentioning Triage Drain Punch (which doesn't even OHKO Chien Pao so on the scale of the uselessness it's a 10) and not Normalize Gengar is a fake argument (Corrosion Gengar isn't really good either but ok)
-Ceruledge isn't broken. You have Garchomp, HZoro, many fast threats that don't die on Sneak (Pao, Kilo, Meow, RMoon...) Well Baked Body stuff running around, it takes 25% on Rocks or you're doing way less damage, Kingambit, etc, so no it isn't broken, you're just running a bad stall for the sake of using Avalugg with 5 mons that auto-lose to Ceruledge and are unable to damage it outside of Chomp, yes it does well against your team, no it is not broken, at all. I'm not saying it's bad, I love the mon. But calling it broken is just wrong (and using Torkoal as an argument on why a mon is broken means nothing too, it's Torkoal lol). If you want to mention WoW, then you lack coverage and you'll be way less effective vs many things, so at the end of the day you're choosing your MU and not even straight winning if you get the wrong one, it's not a problem. (also not the place to talk of this anyway, we're talking of HZoro and Gengar only)
-idk why you mentionned UT and Isaiah, it's a non-issue, but ok

Why am I being perpetually targeted in suspect threads for simply posting my opinions? This isn't just a one-time thing; I have been targeted several different times over the course of two generations. I am all for sparking discussion and debating people, but when a response to my post is "you're wrong and here's a post longer than your own detailing why (and also you can't respond because it's off-topic)", it kinda feels...demoralizing? I think that's the word I'm looking for. What doesn't help is that almost all of these posts have been clearly passive-aggressive, and I am consistently the only one or one of the few targeted in these threads. I have tried to remain respectful and clear when I have been given a chance to respond, but it seems that I am just targeted in another thread or Hahaed onto the losing side, and I am getting tired of it. It just does not make sense to me. Am I being accosted for posting the "wrong" opinion? Because there are plenty of posts I would think are "wrong", yet I do not take time out of my day to pettily respond to them, like I am correct and others are wrong.

 

[Michael213]

shoutout the dude who pasted the "meow meow cat" team you're now my new best friend
Also my 10th successful reqs run time to get the badge