Sun & Moon UU Speculation and Discussion Thread - Updated with UU Alpha!

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tmacbalanced said:
I'm legit curious about something, is drizzle and drought really that OP anymore? There are so many threats that just don't give two gosh darns about rain or sun teams, not to mention we have fantastic hail and sand users in ninetales-alola and gigalith that can shift the weather around out of their favor. I have tried a good amount of these sun and rain teams posted here on ladder, as well as, using some of my own and can confirm that they are not broken in the slightest. Mega Zard Y is just broken as you all already know. I feel like we should test drought and drizzle after alpha to see if they really are borked. I could be wrong though considering the massive ORAS OU threats we have here might be screwing with how I'm viewing drizzle and drought (by the way, I do know most of the ORAS OU mons will get banned). I am just saying though, this isn't gen 5 anymore, we don't have to worry about rain and sun teams getting out of hand considering how they are forced into obvious plays, the weather doesn't last forever (only 5-8 turns), and hail/sand teams are even better sometimes anyways with the buffs they received this gen (mainly just hail getting aurora veil and slush rush mons, plus, sand getting the bulky powerful gigalith to set the weather instead of hippopatas).
I really would like other players' opinions on this, especially those that are veterans from Gen 5. Thanks in advance.
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You're absolutely right when you say that the impact weather has had on ORAS tiers, and now early SUMO tiering, is significantly less than the meta-defining grip it had on BW OU. Obviously it's still too early to arrive at any conclusions, but I think weather will still end up getting the boot in due time when SUMO UU and other lower tiers become more solidified.

Weather in general has always provided a new dimension's worth of possibilities to offensive teams, and it has almost always upset the balance of tiers in the past, which is why most weather abilities ended up getting suspected or banned in near every gen 6 lower tier. You brought up slush rush, but I'd like us all to consider other weather based abilities like sand veil and snow cloak which gravitate the game even more towards luck based outcomes. These abilities could hypothetically be complex banned, but we'd need a lot of these sort of bans and that process in general isn't one that's very efficient. That's why weather is just suspected in the first place, because it brings more cons than pros to the table, and it's not worth suspecting various weather related abilities because of the sheer time it may take to reach an ultimatum. Still, the power creep that gen 7 has brought with it may end up negating the effect weather can have on most games.

That's just my prediction for how weather will be treated in SUMO tiers, based on whatever trends and tiering decisions I've seen and noticed during gens 5 and 6. It's possible that weather abilities like snow warning that happen to have less options to work with compared to rain and sun might remain in the tier for some time, but hail's also been given some new toys to play with, so only time will tell.
 
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Accelgor said:
You brought up slush rush, but I'd like us all to consider other weather based abilities like sand veil and snow cloak which gravitate the game even more towards luck based outcomes. These abilities could hypothetically be complex banned, but we'd need a lot of these sort of bans and that process in general isn't one that's very efficient.
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I don't see why these abilities would be a problem when they could be used last gen, plus nearly everything that gets these abilities are pretty mediocre or in OU.

The real issues would be Drizzle+Swift Swim and Drought+Chlorophyll. We'd have to see how balanced stuff like Venusaur and Kabutops are in UU once it's not mired but a dozen other really OP threats, but I really would like Drizzle and Drought to receive suspect tests instead of being quickbanned if they're deemed overpowering/centralizing in some way. Last gen I remember they got quickbanned really quickly without really seeing what sort of counter play exists against them.
 
Alternatively, we could suspect individual 'mons that seem to be abusing the weather to an extent it could be called "broken." The usual way. Just a suggestion.

EDIT: For example, if some newly released event 'mon (hypothetically) appeared and dropped to UU and made, say, sand, broken, then you'd ban that 'mon, not sand as a whole.
 
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The Elder Dragon said:
Alternatively, we could suspect individual 'mons that seem to be abusing the weather to an extent it could be called "broken." The usual way. Just a suggestion.
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Interesting suggestion. However, the plan you just outlined has one huge flaw, and that is efficiency. Suspect tests are a lengthy process as it is, and removing one potentially broken mon or ability at a time seems conceptually perfect but it's very unrealistic when you consider the time in which we must create a stable tier.

Take this analogy for example. When dealing with a bad rat infestation, you don't get rid of them one by one and risk the chance of the other rats creating another problem for you to deal with. It's just simpler to just gas them all out or poison the lot altogether.
 
tmacbalanced said:
I'm legit curious about something, is drizzle and drought really that OP anymore? There are so many threats that just don't give two gosh darns about rain or sun teams, not to mention we have fantastic hail and sand users in ninetales-alola and gigalith that can shift the weather around out of their favor. I have tried a good amount of these sun and rain teams posted here on ladder, as well as, using some of my own and can confirm that they are not broken in the slightest. Mega Zard Y is just broken as you all already know. I feel like we should test drought and drizzle after alpha to see if they really are borked. I could be wrong though considering the massive ORAS OU threats we have here might be screwing with how I'm viewing drizzle and drought (by the way, I do know most of the ORAS OU mons will get banned). I am just saying though, this isn't gen 5 anymore, we don't have to worry about rain and sun teams getting out of hand considering how they are forced into obvious plays, the weather doesn't last forever (only 5-8 turns), and hail/sand teams are even better sometimes anyways with the buffs they received this gen (mainly just hail getting aurora veil and slush rush mons, plus, sand getting the bulky powerful gigalith to set the weather instead of hippopatas).
I really would like other players' opinions on this, especially those that are veterans from Gen 5. Thanks in advance.
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No I don't want weather banned. I don't want these mons in PU
 
What nerfs did weather in general really receive compared to last gen that it's more "balanced" this gen in UU though? The most I can think of is Rain losing Mega Swampert, and Kingdra moving to OU, the latter of which might come back down anyway. Other weathers being more relevant this gen is the only other thing that really keeps opposing weather in check, such as Mega Charizard-Y simply existing, Gigalith being a pivotal Pokemon for Sand teams, and Alolan Ninetales for Hail. But even then, most teams built around a Mega Charizard-Y, Gigalith, or an Alolan Ninetales aren't necessarily dedicated Sun/Sand/Hail teams, outside of maybe 1-2 abusers maximum (Stoutland/Lycanroc on Sand, Sandslash/Beartic on Hail). Compare that to Rain, where if one is using a Politoed, they are most DEFINITELY bringing a Rain team, which has no shortage of abusers (Kabutops, Ludicolo, Raikou, Thundurus-I/T, Tornadus-T, and even Seismitoad if you're into that). Sun is somewhat of the same formula, having a large number of abusers (Victini, Entei, Venusaur, and even Heliolisk if you're into that) except it has to rely on the otherwise-mediocre Torkoal as the only other auto-setter of Sun besides Charizard-Y.

I mean the whole point of what I'm saying here is that outside of just getting MORE weather to check other weather-based teams with, I don't see how it really got any more balanced than it was last gen. Not saying it deserves a quickban, but you can clearly see where some weather teams (mainly Rain and Sun, Rain which has a ton of good abusers, and Sun, which at least has two reliable auto-setters + good abusers) would have an edge over other ones pretty easily.
 
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I wouldn't say necessarily that Weather was nerfed so much as the overall (current) power level of UU has been buffed to better handle Weather, be it with strong Priority attacks (in the case of DNite, Zydoge, Sciz, Weavile, Azu, etc.) or with general bulk (Gigalith, Latias). Latias in particular is pretty splashable, and can be a big help vs. both Rain and Sun with proper team support. Rain is definitely sketchy at the moment in terms of balance though, since there are about a million different ways you can take advantage of it.

I don't personally think that Sun is all that great since Torkoal is indeed very meh and I'd question whether or not ZardY is going to stay. The main issue with Sun imo is that it's very hard to avoid stacking SR weak mons when you're trying to fully take advantage of Sun. Combine that with common mons like MAero and MSharp that can eat Sun alive with the right moveset, in addition to the strong forms of priority flying around at the moment, and it honestly doesn't feel too overbearing to play against, even if you don't have a weather team of your own. Defensively, Gigalith is also pretty splashable as a Tank mon that matches solidly vs Sun and is a reliable rocker, even if you don't necessarily want a dedicated Sand team.

Sand got Gigalith, which is nice since it's the only option besides like Hippopotas, but in terms of abusers it only got Lycanroc which is painfully average in this role. Alolan-Duggy is also another option that hits pretty hard with Sand Force, but it's overall very frail and far from an OHKO machine even with SF + Life Orb. Not to mention the fact that plenty of things are capable of outspeeding and KOing as base 110 is anything special for a mon in this role. If anything, I'd expect Sand Balance to be the prominent Sand Archetype, since there's a lot of viable ways to make use of the Sandstorm chip damage.

Hail gets access to Slush Rush now which is way cool, but there is a severe lack of viable candidates to abuse with. Sandslash is pretty cool, but suffers from a relatively mediocre Base 100 Atk. Beartic is so slow that you risk being outsped by faster Scarfers, and MAero will outspeed 100% of the time, even if Jolly. Aurora Veil is neat, but it's an option that is heavily telegraphed, and restricted to Ninetales as its only viable setter. Definitely a dangerous option though when combined with the right setup sweeper, of which there are no shortage of at the moment.
 
I've been using this Salamence set recently, as a dedicated counter to Mega Charizard Y, for Stall teams. Also neat because it can also catch threats like Staraptor off-guard and KO them. Not really a long discussion, I just wanted to share it.

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Tail

Salamence resists all of Mega Charizard Y's attacks. I mean ALL of them. Except Air Slash, but frankly Air Slash is quite useless and not worth considering. I've used it over Dragonite due to access to Defog. Dragonite gets Defog too obviously, but doesn't get to use Multiscale if it has it, so Salamence it was.
 
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The Elder Dragon said:
I've been using this Salamence set recently, as a dedicated counter to Mega Charizard Y, for Stall teams. Also neat because it can also catch threats like Staraptor off-guard and KO them. Not really a long discussion, I just wanted to share it.

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Tail

Salamence resists all of Mega Charizard Y's attacks. I mean ALL of them. Except Air Slash, but frankly Air Slash is quite useless and not worth considering. I've used it over Dragonite due to access to Defog. Dragonite gets Defog too obviously, but doesn't get to use Multiscale if it has it, so Salamence it was.
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I've seen dragon pulse mega charizard Y before. Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Roost are musts. Now that heatran and tyranitar are not in the tier, the last slot is more customizable: Focus Blast, Will-O-Wisp, Dragon Pulse, etc. Arguably Dragon Pulse has more uses than Air Slash
 
The Elder Dragon said:
I've been using this Salamence set recently, as a dedicated counter to Mega Charizard Y, for Stall teams. Also neat because it can also catch threats like Staraptor off-guard and KO them. Not really a long discussion, I just wanted to share it.

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Tail

Salamence resists all of Mega Charizard Y's attacks. I mean ALL of them. Except Air Slash, but frankly Air Slash is quite useless and not worth considering. I've used it over Dragonite due to access to Defog. Dragonite gets Defog too obviously, but doesn't get to use Multiscale if it has it, so Salamence it was.
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Some variants of Char-Y run Dragon Pulse, which is good coverage for Latias and Dragonite, so you have to still be careful: 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Salamence: 180-212 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO

Usually Blissey alone is a good-enough support on Stall teams for Charizard-Y anyway though, unless you're worried about Flare Blitz Charizard-Y...which is actually lowkey decent at breaking defensive cores lacking a Gigalith
 
OrangeCrush0xFE said:
How good is Staraptor in this tier? Does it look like he'll be BL again once all the dust settles?
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Staraptor is decent but the proliferation of weavile and scarf kyurem black can wreck its day due to fast ice moves. It will take him some time to be BL (char-y, kyu-b, weavile, dragonite, keldeo, azumarill, scizor, latias, baton pass, drought, drizzle, volcarona, jirachi, slowbro-mega will be suspected or banned first).
 
I haven't built a team for UU yet, but it seems like it will be a lot like BW OU, somewhat ironically. Weather is everywhere, most walls can't catch a break, and Hyper Offense is everywhere, with Keldeo, Dragonite, Gliscor, and other BW stars falling from grace. And, you know, it looks quite refreshing in comparison to the Stall Wars that SuMo OU seem to attract sometimes.
 
Porygon-Z is like Jirachi but much better due to the z-conversion. This could get out of control very fast. We know what bisharp could do back in XYUU. I think this may be OP. I'd say bisharp may be even better than scizor. Hippowdon is a straight-up upgrade of gigalith. Sand just got a whole lot better (one bulky grass gone, one better sand setter and sweeper return)
 
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