Metagame Suicide Cup

[Adrian Marin]

Approved by The Immortal, Chloe and E4 Flint
Art by T-Lukke

Overview​

Suicide Cup is an obscure metagame, where victory is not derived from KOing your opponent's Pokemon. In Suicide Cup, victory is derived from 'fainting' your own Pokemon before your opponent! Explosion and co are banned, so creativity is what you'll need to be successful in this metagame. With Toxic Orb, you become immune to opposing status as you receive passive damage! With Black Sludge, you're prone to Trick, but it offers reliable damage. You can also prevent your opponent from KOing their Pokemon by Skill Swapping Magic Guard, Tricking a Mago Berry, or by using Heal Pulse. It's also worth noting that you'd generally want to forego investing your EVs and IVs on all stats except speed. If you enjoyed Suicide Cup and Suicide Cup doubles, then you'll enjoy this gen's iteration even more so!


Rules

Clauses

• Ubers Clauses
• All Pokémon must be level 100
• You must have a full team of 6 Pokemon
• Family Clause: You can only use one Pokemon from their respective evolutionary line.

Banned Pokemon

• Shedinja

Unbanned Pokemon

• Mega Rayquaza

Banned Items

• Assault Vest
• Choice Scarf

Banned Moves

• Memento
• Healing Wish
• Lunar Dance
• Explosion
• Self Destruct
• Final Gambit
• Magic Room
• Misty Terrain

Unbanned Moves

• Baton Pass
• OHKO Moves

Banned Abilities

• Infiltator
• Misty Surge
• Magic Guard

Sample Teams

Teams

Aerodactyl Fun Time
Mightyena's Aspiring Squad!
Razzle-Salazzle

Outdated and / or Illegal Teams

Drums of Sorrow and Songs of Death
My Team

Resources

Council: volcanionisgood, NOC Unlucky 13 and Jrsmash9 (if anyone would like to apply, do not hesitate to message me.)
Playability: You can play Suicide Cup in Dragonheaven server (I'd like to thank Spandan for coding it!)
Viablity Rankings (special thanks to: volcanionisgood, NOC Unlucky 13, Anime Sans, Jrsmash9 and charizard8888.)
Speed Tier Chart:

Spoiler

Tier 1: Prankster

Whimsicott: 364

Liepard: 342

Murkrow: 309

Purrloin, Cottonee: 254

Sableye: 218

Tier 2: Fastest-350

Deoxys-S: 504

Electrode: 438

Accelgor: 427

Mewtwo: 394

Mega Gengar: 394

Mightyena: 393 [Quick Feet]

Ribombee: 381

Noivern: 379

Dugtrio: 372

Hawlucha: 368

Salazzle: 366

Absol-Mega: 361

Espeon, Jumpluff, Latias: 350

Tier 3: 349-300

Mismagius, Zoroark: 339

: Charizard, Comfey, Celebi, Ninetales: 328

: Darmanitan, Jynx, Minun: 317

Abra, Poliwag: 306

Tier 4: 299-200

Gardevoir, Gastly: 284

Smeargle: 273

Decidueye: 262

Gothitelle, Walrein,Smoochum: 251

Jellicent, Swampert: 240

Gothorita: 229

Lickilicky: 218

Gothita, Sealeo, Marowak-A: 207

Tier 5: 199-Slowest

Gulpin: 196

Lickitung, Slowking, Slowbro, Sunkern, Happiny: 174

Slowpoke: 141

 

[Adrian Marin]

Suicide Cup Viability Rankings
​

Analyses can be viewed by clicking a Pokemon's
respective hyperlink,

S Rank​

S

Smeargle

S-

Accelgor

Espeon

Gothitelle family

A Rank​

A+

Ditto

Lickilicky family

Mewtwo

Murkrow

Sableye

Salazzle

Slowking Family

A

Charizard

Darmanitan

Liepard family

Mightyena

Walrein & Sealeo

A-

Absol-Mega

Abra

Gardevoir

Gulpin

Hawlucha

Latias

Jynx family

Marowak-A

Mismagius

Ribombee

Whimsicott family

Zoroark

B Rank​

B+

Comfey

Decidueye

Deoxys-S

Dugtrio

Gastly

Jellicent

Jumpluff

Poliwag

B

Celebi

Electrode

Minun

Noivern

Sunkern

B-

Happiny

Ninetales

Swampert

​

Do not use these Pokemon

Banette-Mega

Diancie-Mega

Gengar-Mega

Version 1.2​

 

[Snafutari]

[01:03:10] Adrian Marin BH: Oh noc, since you discovered it
[01:03:15] Adrian Marin BH: Feel free to post the set


Okay, so when playing this, one of the first things to come to mind was, well, Mind Blown. Its very strong here, but its sooo strong. Enter Smeargle, and I realized that I might have something that synergizes very well with an anti meta strategy in Rain.

Well, here's the set, I guess.

Smeargle @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Heal Pulse
- Purify
- Mind Blown
- Magic Coat

Nothing to special, honestly. Only thing out of the ordinary is Mind Blown. I did stack both Heal Pulse and Purify, which could be seen as an issue, and Substitute could give this set a little bit more consistency, but this was just one idea of what Mind Blown. Just imagine this on some weird BP+Perish Song team to help facilitate team killing, and being able to kill itself in 2 turns.

Other than that one thing, I will say, this meta is one of the most unique thing I've ever played. It's difficult to get used to, because of its fundamental nature of the OM, but it's pretty fun overall.

Now I need to get away for a little bit, I have been sitting in front of my monitor too long, now I have a headache.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Mind Blown's effect activates even when blocked via Protect.

 

[chartung17]

[01:03:10] Adrian Marin BH: Oh noc, since you discovered it
[01:03:15] Adrian Marin BH: Feel free to post the set


Okay, so when playing this, one of the first things to come to mind was, well, Mind Blown. Its very strong here, but its sooo strong. Enter Smeargle, and I realized that I might have something that synergizes very well with an anti meta strategy in Rain.

Well, here's the set, I guess.

Smeargle @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Heal Pulse
- Purify
- Mind Blown
- Magic Coat

Nothing to special, honestly. Only thing out of the ordinary is Mind Blown. I did stack both Heal Pulse and Purify, which could be seen as an issue, and Substitute could give this set a little bit more consistency, but this was just one idea of what Mind Blown. Just imagine this on some weird BP+Perish Song team to help facilitate team killing, and being able to kill itself in 2 turns.

Other than that one thing, I will say, this meta is one of the most unique thing I've ever played. It's difficult to get used to, because of its fundamental nature of the OM, but it's pretty fun overall.

Now I need to get away for a little bit, I have been sitting in front of my monitor too long, now I have a headache.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Mind Blown's effect activates even when blocked via Protect.

Why use just Smeargle when you can make your entire team self-destruct in two turns each?

Hide

Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Whirlwind
- Trick
- Transform

Sneasel @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Counter
- Focus Punch

Meowth @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Endure
- Feint

Glameow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Endure
- Sleep Talk

Furret @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Sleep Talk
- Focus Punch

Weavile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Sleep Talk
- Focus Punch

 

[Snafutari]

Why use just Smeargle when you can make your entire team self-destruct in two turns each?

Hide

Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Whirlwind
- Trick
- Transform

Sneasel @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Counter
- Focus Punch

Meowth @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Endure
- Feint

Glameow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Endure
- Sleep Talk

Furret @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Sleep Talk
- Focus Punch

Weavile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Assist
- Protect
- Sleep Talk
- Focus Punch

So...We read this and decided to test some of its properties (totally scientifically, of course), and found some things that are pretty interesting. For instance, we thought that, maybe, the recoil wouldn't occur when it hits a Flash Fire Pokemon. Well....we tested this....

It Did Not Go Well

As you can see, it does not. However, we tested a little bit later a little....peculiarity...involving this team. As it turns out...Assist calling Mind Blown does NOT cause recoil. This naturally baffled us, so yeah...if this does turn out to be a glitch, Assist might need to be dealt with. If not, then oh well, no harm done.

Here's the second replay, if you wish to confirm it with your own eyes.

So yeah, this is very interesting to say the least. I am shocked by assist there, but yeah...I felt like I should post this, since I helped cause this satanic idea to ever occur. Please, Assist teams are toxic, okay? I don't want to fight them, do you?

 

[SadisticMystic]

If you wanted to do actual scientific testing, you'd test it in game, either instead of or in addition to what the sim does. The way the actual game works, Mind Blown still gives recoil even if it's blocked by Flash Fire, or if it's called via a move that calls another move (such as Assist or Sleep Talk).

The sim should therefore be edited to allow that team style to work, but the real counter to it is using stuff like Kartana where they can't help but kill you in 1 hit even as they kill themselves in 2.
0- SpA Sneasel Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kartana: 480-568 (185.3 - 219.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(For what it's worth, it's pretty tough for Mega Kangaskhan to be able to use Mind Blown, but even if it did and the opponent survived the first hit, it only takes one batch of recoil.)

 

[Woodl]

This small meta actually seems quite cool, ill definitely be trying it out

 

[Delibird Heart]

This seems like a really interesting meta, I might make a team if I can think of one. In the meantime, here's something I thought off :

Smeargle @ whatever
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Taunt
-Perish Song
-Whirlwind
-Baton Pass

Just psong, whirlwind the opposing pokemon away, baton pass perish song to another pokemon in your team, let it die, rinse and repeat.

 

[volcanionisgood]

I want to share a fun strategy I came up with. It starts off with this innocent gothitelle set:
Gothitelle @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Protect
- Heal Pulse
- Taunt
- Substitute
Your goal is to taunt the opponent then switchout into your mons that can be ohkod by struggle/ knock off. I use pichu happiny and abra because of their remarkable frailty.

calcs

0- Atk Mew Struggle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Happiny: 506-596 (163.2 - 192.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Mew Struggle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Pichu: 213-251 (142 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Mew Struggle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abra: 213-251 (133.1 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While there is plenty of taunt goth counterplay on every team, 1 successful taunt can lead to the tide swinging in your favor with 1-3 easy deaths.

 

[elleapple]

Just gonna drop in here to talk about one of my favorite mons

Sunkern @ Black Sludge
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Worry Seed
- Encore
- Substitute
- Sunny Day

This cute little seed dies like nothing, taking 1/4 of it's health with black sludge and solar power. What gives it a niche over the more obvious charizard is a glaring weakness to mind blown, which is all the rage. encore is an obviously beneficial move, and worry seed is essentially gastro acid but grass type.

 

[Snafutari]

Just going to link this song because it fits this meta, hasn't yet been posted, and is fucking OZZY, man.

So I've played around a bit more with rain, it seems pretty good with Mind Blown being so good here. So, I created an utterly terrible team. Here it is, if you plan on stealing it.

WTF is This Even?

Smeargle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Baton Pass
- Perish Song
- Whirlwind

Politoed @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Encore
- Belly Drum
- Substitute

Luvdisc @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Heal Pulse
- Substitute
- Rain Dance
- Protect

Bounsweet @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Oblivious
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Attract
- Substitute
- Protect
- Splash

Abra @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Skill Swap
- Snatch
- Magic Coat

Mismagius @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Imprison
- Trick
- Substitute
- Curse

For this team, the goal is to use Perish Song Smeargle to Baton Pass to other mons, and pressure the opponent with Mind Blown as well. If they decide to stay in, just use Whirlwind. The HP EVs are there to keep him alive (!) to actually pass the deadly song to a teammate. Bounsweet is just trash...the only reason I picked it's niche's, which I'll discuss a little bit later. Politoed is essentially required for rain, due to Belly Drum and a useful movepool outside of that. Luvdisc is amazing on rain. Seriously, try it, its insane! Even after Sticky Webs, if its in the rain it has 428 speed. So, in rain, Luvdisc has the fastest Heal Pulse in the meta, outspeeding even the Mega Mewtwo Y when webs are up! Seriously, Luvdisc really should be discussed, its a whole helluva lot better than you think! The rest of the team is just....kinda standard, I guess.

We also found out that Damp blocks Mind Blown's self inflicted damage, so that's another reason to consider Politoed...Or Jellicent....Or any Pokemon with Damp....Yeah....

Alright, as for Bounsweet's weird niche's, let's start with its typing; its frailty and typing combine to get it killed fairly easily by opposing Mind Blowns. Its typing also gives it a unique ability to block powder moves, making it fairly useful in the early game. Oblivious is also an obvious reason to pick it, too bad its main niche over the 2 main users of Oblivious doesn't involve any self harming move, but an offensive one: Rapid Spin. In rare circumstances where Oblivious is somehow broken past, and you get taunted, its difficult to initially take advantage of, since Rapid Spin is weaker than Struggle, meaning that Bounsweet often get's away unscathed, just a bit shaken up. Its also the weakest Pokemon in the game to get access to this move, followed by Tyrogue, meaning there is no way this'll kill stuff like Happiny, even if critical hits happen...

That Calc

0 Atk Bounsweet Rapid Spin vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Happiny on a critical hit: 51-61 (14.9 - 17.8%) -- 94.6% chance to 4HKO after toxic damage

Even with all of this, its by far the most niche Pokemon in the metagame. Definitely low tier, but I feel it deserves some mentions (?).

 

[ToadNorton]

The team doesn't look to bad expect for Magic Guard Abra seems counterintuitive if you ask me

 

[sin(pi)]

The team doesn't look to bad expect for Magic Guard Abra seems counterintuitive if you ask me

The point is to Skill Swap Magic Guard to your opponent, who hopefully will struggle in dealing with it. Removing their ability to take residual damage is excellent.

 

[ToadNorton]

ahh ok that makes sense now

 

[x TwirlyPanda x]

finally a meta I can relate to

So I was screwing around and found this bad mama jamma

Hide

Deoxys-Attack @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Swagger
- Sunny Day
- Taunt
- Frustration

Espeon @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Swagger
- Baton Pass
- Magic Room oof rip
- Skill Swap

So ubers mons are allowed and of course I had to use the glassiest of cannons, Deo-A
It’s more of a meme than anything else tbh. You lead with espeon and ss it’s ability, baton into deo, then swagger yourself.
If you find that to be too much work, just scrap the espeon and use deoxys as a mind blown punisher!
Sunny day is to boost opponent’s mind blown into the sweet spot to activate the berry, confusing deoxys. One confusion hit and that boy is dead as a doorknob. Frustration is so you aren’t taunt bait and taunt is just taunt lol
0 SpA Smeargle Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Attack in Sun: 181-214 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Pichu: 12-15 (8 - 10%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

[elleapple]

finally a meta I can relate to

So I was screwing around and found this bad mama jamma

Hide

Deoxys-Attack @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Swagger
- Sunny Day
- Taunt
- Torment

Espeon @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Swagger
- Baton Pass
- Magic Room
- Skill Swap

So ubers mons are allowed and of course I had to use the glassiest of cannons, Deo-A
It’s more of a meme than anything else tbh. You lead with espeon and ss it’s ability, baton into deo, then swagger yourself.
If you find that to be too much work, just scrap the espeon and use deoxys as a mind blown punisher!
Sunny day is to boost opponent’s mind blown into the sweet spot to activate the berry, confusing deoxys. One confusion hit and that boy is dead as a doorknob. Torment is to prevent the opponent from using mind blown again, and taunt is just taunt lol
0 SpA Smeargle Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Attack in Sun: 181-214 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

magic room is banned my mans
and deo-a's struggle is gonna kill everything on the other team, not a very good idea

 

[chartung17]

There is a Gen 7 Suicide Cup on ROM, but it has a lot more bans than the ones mentioned in this thread.

 

[Jrsmash9]

Played a couple games and can say a few things about the meta. First of all smeargle is the best mon in the meta and any competent team will have it. You can pretty much compare smeargle to gen 2 snorlax. With mindblown, perishpass, taunt, healpulse, trick and phazing it just about has everything. However its biggest weakness is being taunted, so running mental herb can work on smeargle. Also make sure to always have a backup plan for killing a mon in case their status/item is removed. For example charizard can run sunnyday to finish itself off if it loses its item/status. Because if you are unable to kill a mon on your team then you automatically lose even if your 1-6 (Unless you end up struggling). Furthermore taunt and trick are extremely good and often whoever has the faster taunter can control the tide of the battle.

 

[Adrian Marin]

So, I just updated the reserved post with the beta release of Suicide Cup's Viability Rankings. I'm sure some of you are confused regarding why Pokemon such as Abra share the same ranking as Alakazam. Abra may not have the same speed stat as Alakazam, but it does have less attack and less overall bulk. This leads us to believe that Abra, like many other Pokemon in the VR, have distinct advantages over their evolutions, but not enough to warrant a separate ranking (plus, it would just be confusing if the entire Abra line were listed individually.) There are some cases, however, where pre-evolutions or evolved Pokemon have higher viability. I'm very pleased with the result and I hope this Viability Ranking will make Suicide Cup more accessible to new comers! Our next project will be to implement a set compendium. I'd like to thank volcanionisgood, NOC Unlucky 13, Anime Sans, Jrsmash9 and charizard8888 for contributing!

 

[Snafutari]

Well, I'm surprised no one posted talking about the new VR. I mean, we took our sweet time to make it (lmao), only a whopping four days were taken to make it (LMAO).

In all seriousness, I do agree with the VR in most cases. I know I've talked about stuff like Luvdisc and Bounsweet (lmao don't use Bounsweet), but I agree with almost everything. The only thing we should talk about are the things not ranked. A great example is Zoroark; I don't have any experience; if I did, I would've suggested a rank for it. In any case, just because we have a VR, doesn't mean we should just keep using the same Pokemon, over and over, else this metagame won't progress.

Another thing I want to talk about is that even outside of the VR, we have a lot of work ahead. Our goal is OMotM, and I don't think this will be easy, since this metagame's main issue is that it's hard to get into, since it plays so much more different than any other metagame. The best way to help with this problem is to provide as many resources for beginner players as possible. I propose our next project be the speed tiers, although some new sample teams would always be a good thing. Speaking of which, I need to go build one.

Let's make this happen. Suicide Cup for OMotM!

(Also, I apologize if this post seems horrible. I couldn't write up this post without seeing myself as an idiot.)

 

[CringeMeta]

Awesome meta. Hoping for OMotM soon.

I feel like Lapras deserves a viability rating, even if lowest tier. Of the mons that can learn Perish Song + a phazing move, Smeargle and Murkrow are already listed. The remainder are, I think, Altaria and Arceus, along with Lapras. Altaria and Arceus don't really seem to have anything else of note (Flash on Arceus, maybe?), and Arceus has a dangerously strong Struggle.

Lapras, however, has another interesting move that seems underutilised so far: Bide. Bide counts as an attack (therefore is selectable whilst Taunted) but doesn't actually damage the opponent for at least two turns, which also depends on the opponent using an attacking move on you, and Lapras will likely already be dead by then if it got a Perish Song off first. So if the opponent Taunts you as you try to phaze, and then switches into a Struggle sacrifice like Pichu, you can just Bide and pacificistically wait out the remaining turns. It's kind of like a mini Oblivious. Remaining move slot can be used for Sub.

 

[Snafutari]

Awesome meta. Hoping for OMotM soon.

I feel like Lapras deserves a viability rating, even if lowest tier. Of the mons that can learn Perish Song + a phazing move, Smeargle and Murkrow are already listed. The remainder are, I think, Altaria and Arceus, along with Lapras. Altaria and Arceus don't really seem to have anything else of note (Flash on Arceus, maybe?), and Arceus has a dangerously strong Struggle.

Lapras, however, has another interesting move that seems underutilised so far: Bide. Bide counts as an attack (therefore is selectable whilst Taunted) but doesn't actually damage the opponent for at least two turns, which also depends on the opponent using an attacking move on you, and Lapras will likely already be dead by then if it got a Perish Song off first. So if the opponent Taunts you as you try to phaze, and then switches into a Struggle sacrifice like Pichu, you can just Bide and pacificistically wait out the remaining turns. It's kind of like a mini Oblivious. Remaining move slot can be used for Sub.

The problem with Lapras (besides how memorable it is, I sure as hell never remembered it when testing gimmicks) is its bulky and slow, which are very bad combos in this metagame. Furthermore, of the Perish Song users, most of them have a strong niche; Bide, on the other hand, is a mediocre niche that CAN backfire fairly easily. I mean, its better than struggle, but that's like saying Bounsweet should be higher on the VR because of Rapid Spin, which has uses outside of preventing Struggle. Lapras likely has a place, but it seems so obscure that I don't know if we can rank it.

In any case, Inverse is causing a lot of discussion, so we won't be getting as much activity as I'd like. I was going to post a sample team, but I'd like to have some replays to help people ease into said team. Well, hopefully I can find some more battles, because this metagame is extremely fun, and deserves more activity.

Aaaand I've done it. A 0-6 in this metagame. The first in this gen, as far as I know.
Here it is. To be fair, he was using memes, so it's understandable.

Once I get some more battles, I'll upload the team, I'm hoping it'll be a sample team, but who knows?

 

[CringeMeta]

Lapras does have another problem I forgot, which is that unfortunately Bide is illegal without Hydration, which is a fairly hindering ability in this meta as rain is sometimes used to counter Dry Skin, etc.

Anyway, we found a fatal bug, LOL. Crash when both final pokes die to Perish Song on the same turn. Might have something to do with Imprison being active as well?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2214

 

[Adrian Marin]

Lapras does have another problem I forgot, which is that unfortunately Bide is illegal without Hydration, which is a fairly hindering ability in this meta as rain is sometimes used to counter Dry Skin, etc.

Anyway, we found a fatal bug, LOL. Crash when both final pokes die to Perish Song on the same turn. Might have something to do with Imprison being active as well?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2214

This could be an issue in the future. I would post it in the bug reports thread, but I can't, as you battled in dragonheaven. If we can emulate that battle in the main server via Custom Game, then we can get to the bottom of this bug.

That said, allow me to digress and showcase one of my favorite leads:

Accelgor @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 1 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Encore
- Baton Pass
- Protect / Gastro Acid

I notice a lot of new players have been using very unsafe leads. As you all know, Trick + Pecha Berry is a very dangerous combination that can turn the tides of battle in an instant. That's what makes strategies like Sub-Pass so important. Accelgor is most definitely one of the best Sub-Passers in the meta. It has a few flaws, such as its lack of Taunt and inability to counter Prankster Taunt Pokemon. However, it will never lose its item, making it possibly the best Smeargle counter in the meta, as well as one of the safest leads. Its nature strengthens Smeargle's Mind Blown, allowing Accelgor to counter Smeargle with ease. Its moves are quite self-explanatory. I like Protect more than Gastro Acid because Gastro Acid hasn't been very helpful in my experience.

 

[Snafutari]

This could be an issue in the future. I would post it in the bug reports thread, but I can't, as you battled in dragonheaven. If we can emulate that battle in the main server via Custom Game, then we can get to the bottom of this bug.

That said, allow me to digress and showcase one of my favorite leads:


View attachment 114262
Accelgor @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 1 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Encore
- Baton Pass
- Protect / Gastro Acid

I notice a lot of new players have been using very unsafe leads. As you all know, Trick + Pecha Berry is a very dangerous combination that can turn the tides of battle in an instant. That's what makes strategies like Sub-Pass so important. Accelgor is most definitely one of the best Sub-Passers in the meta. It has a few flaws, such as its lack of Taunt and inability to counter Prankster Taunt Pokemon. However, it will never lose its item, making it possibly the best Smeargle counter in the meta, as well as one of the safest leads. Its nature strengthens Smeargle's Mind Blown, allowing Accelgor to counter Smeargle with ease. Its moves are quite self-explanatory. I like Protect more than Gastro Acid because Gastro Acid hasn't been very helpful in my experience.

Yeah, Accelgor is pretty good, it has possibly the best speed stats in the game....unless the Deoxys' are included. Those fuckers are too damn fast, and Taunt everything not running Prankster (which are getting pretty popular now). My main issue is its lack of Taunt; it just seems like SubPass is its only niche. I know SubPass is insane, but I don't know...When Pranksters are getting popular, it just doesn't seem as reliable. Not saying its bad, just saying the metagame isn't kind to it right now.

I do think I have enough replays to post my most consistent team. It's pretty good, but not perfect, so it seems like a good starting point for new players, making it a good starter team *cough*Adrian*cough* or even a sample team.

Aerodactyl Fun Time

Gastly @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Pain Split
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Curse

Aerodactyl @ Black Sludge
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 6 SpA / 0 SpD
- Whirlwind
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Defog

Gothita @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 17 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Heal Pulse
- Magic Coat

Smeargle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Baton Pass
- Whirlwind
- Perish Song

Mewtwo @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Heal Pulse
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
- Substitute

Pichu @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Encore
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
- Protect

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2211
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2210
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2207
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2148
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2146
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-741629185
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2145
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-2121
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-741227383
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-1996

Depending on whether or not you see a Prankster, you lead with either Mewtwo or Aerodactyl; If there's a Prankster, use Mewtwo and lead with either Taunt or Magic Coat, depending on whether you predict a Taunt or a Substitute. If they lack one, save Mewtwo for midgame, and lead with Aerodactyl, and use Taunt or Substitute, depending on what the opponent leads with (if it can't run Magic Coat, just click Taunt). You want to get a Substitute of ASAP. This team is pretty much "get an opponent Taunted, then take advantage of them being Taunted." When a Pokemon faints against a Taunted Pokemon, bring in Gothita, then switch to either Pichu or Gastly; either one works. Anyway, Smeargle is a no-brainer, and is simply just the Perish Pass set to provide an alternate way to kill your Pokemon besides Substitute and items, meaning you have a way to win if Trick+Pecha happens. Of course, it's not consistent, but it's better than nothing. Generally, you'll want to keep Smeargle alive until the end, but this doesn't always happen. Gastly dies to anything slower by using Taunt that tries to prevent it from doing damage; Knock Off kills, and Trick get's Taunted.

The main flaws with the team is Prankster Taunt spam; it get's really annoying for most teams, but this team has no Dark types, so the only way it stops it is Magic Coat and proper prediction. A good example is Sableye; it's a Ghost type, so it ignore Shadow Tag, and has a nasty Imprison set to prevent Taunt. Another big threat is Trick+Pecha, simply because if the wrong target loses its item, it can get tough to win, especially if the opponent has Gothitelle. If the opponent has 2 Trick+Pecha....It's time to click the x button. In all seriousness, it's not unwinnable, just very irritating, and very tricky to win.

The last thing I want to say is I'm surprised with the lack of Trick Room so far. It seems pretty anti-meta, considering the insane focus on speed in this metagame.