Starmie (Full Revamp)+

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cim

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I thought I'd just copy and paste my old Starmie with a few references to Trick in here. This is kind of cheating the reserve system but whatever, no sense throwing out all that hard work.

There's several parts that need touching up if Deoxys-S turns out to be banned from OU.

[SET]
name: Rapid Spinner
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
evs: 136 HP / 156 Def / 216 Spe
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Starmie is a fine choice for Rapid Spinning away Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, especially with Natural Cure ridding it of the otherwise burdensome Toxic status. Surf provides Starmie with a STAB attack and allows it to make short work of Infernape and Mamoswine, which Starmie outruns. Recover, with Starmie's great Speed stat, makes it tough to take down because Starmie can quickly Recover off damage before being hit again.</p>

<p>Thunderbolt is mainly for Gyarados, who Starmie can handle to an extent. However, after a Dragon Dance, a Life Orb Gyarados outspeeds and does major damage with Earthquake. However, if Starmie is in excellent health, it can switch into Stealth Rock on the Dragon Dance, take the Earthquake with the given EVs, and OHKO with Thunderbolt if Gyarados was hit by Stealth Rock or had taken any prior damage. You could in theory replace it with Ice Beam for Salamence, but every Salamence version either OHKOs with Outrage or Draco Meteor or just Dragon Dances on the switch. Still, if you're desperate for a revenge killer to Choice Band Outrage Salamence, feel free to run it.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Attacker
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Trick / Grass Knot / Psychic
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Starmie's excellent Speed and respectable Special Attack stats, as well as a fairly diverse movepool, Choice Specs suits Starmie perfect. STAB Surf from Starmie threatens to 2HKO Tyranitar, making Pursuit no problem at all for an otherwise vulnerable Pokemon. Hydro Pump can be used as well, as a 120 base power move from 492 or 448 Special Attack is very threatening, but the accuracy is off-putting. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are fairly obvious choices. Thunderbolt nets coverage on most Water-types, especially Gyarados, and Ice Beam covers Grass and Dragon-types, in particular Salamence.</p>

<p>The last slot is a bit of a toss-up. Trick is an excellent option to cripple would be counters like Blissey and Snorlax, plus it allows you to use Starmie as a late game sweeper without the burdensome Choice item. Psychic provides a secondary source of STAB that hits Heracross and Gengar for super effective damage (though Gengar is OHKOed by Modest Choice Specs Surf). It also does more to Tentacruel than Thunderbolt. However, a Choice-locked Psychic is Tyranitar and Weavile bait, so be sure to 2HKO either with Surf or otherwise scout your opponent's team before using Psychic. Grass Knot is largely a coverage option and is useful in scenarios where you are unsure what your opponent is going to do. For example, if you are up against a Gyarados and you know that your opponent has a Choice Band Tyranitar ready to Pursuit you; do you use Surf or Thunderbolt? This would be an ideal scenario where Grass Knot would be useful to employ. Hidden Power Fire is specifically for Scizor and Metagross, two common Pursuit users. Trapping Scizor in particular can switch into Choice Scarf with impunity if Starmie lacks HP Fire; however, if will be 2HKOed by a Choice Specs Surf 98% of the time if Stealth Rock is in play.</p>

<p>Timid versus Modest is a simple "speed versus power" argument. If you want to revenge kill Infernape and Gengar more effectively, then go for Timid. If these Pokemon don't threaten you, use Modest as the power is definitely welcome.</p>

<p>Putting a Choice Scarf onto Starmie allows it to effectively revenge kill many of the current metagame's greatest threats, including all Gengar, Heatran, Salamence, and Gyarados, even with +1 Speed or their own Choice Scarves. This Speed combined with Starmie's good Special Attack and movepool make it a great check to all of these threats, stopping them from sweeping your team. However, running a Choice Scarf set leaves you vulnerable to Tyranitar unless you pack Hydro Pump as you risk not KOing it before it Pursuits you.</p>

[SET]
name: Reflect Support
move 1: Surf
move 2: Reflect
move 3: Recover
move 4: Rapid Spin / Thunderbolt
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is a very physically defensive Starmie whose main purpose is to assist the team with the psuedo-passing potential of Reflect, while also using the protective screen to defend itself from Tyranitar, Weavile, and various other Pursuit users.</p>

<p>The first three attacks are non-negotiable, but you can fill the final slot with whatever your team needs most. Rapid Spin and Thunderbolt are the two most helpful choices. Given the added bulk this set has over other Starmie sets, it makes an even better spinner than usual, so Rapid Spin is a fine choice. With Reflect and the extra defensive EVs, coming in on Swampert to get rid of Stealth Rock is much safer. Thunderbolt transforms Starmie into an excellent Gyarados counter, as without Life Orb, it is unlikely to score a 2HKO with a +1 Earthquake or Stone Edge.</p>

<p>If spin support is not required, or taken care of by one of Starmie's teammates, and the role of countering Gyarados is also filled, there are some other options to consider. Ice Beam offers coverage against Salamence, although it is only really effective on faster versions, as Salamence can kill Starmie before it has a chance to attack. Psychic is a reasonable option as it hits many Water resists for neutral damage, as well as hurting Heracross and Tentacruel and OHKOing Gengar 58% of the time and always with Stealth Rock support. Status support from Toxic or Thunder Wave is also helpful; just be sure not to hit Heracross with either, as it will activate Guts.</p>

<p>The listed EVs mean that Starmie takes physical hits surprisingly well and can easily come in on Swampert to spin away Stealth Rock. A mere 16 Speed EVs gets up to 270, enough to outpace Adamant Heracross. If you require more Speed, take from Defense. The highest Speed you will need is 347 so Starmie can effectively counter Infernape, although you can bump that up to 352 if you wish to outrun Gengar. Other good benchmarks to aim for include 285 to outrun Mamoswine and Lucario, or 290 to place Starmie one stat point ahead of neutral nature Electivire. After maxing HP, all remaining EVs should go in Defense.</p>

[SET]
name: Life Orb
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Starmie's good type coverage makes it a respectable sweeper. Hydro Pump is a pretty impressive attack on this set and scores a lot of damage to anything that doesn't resist it. To give some examples: Zapdos is OHKOed after Stealth Rock damage, most Bronzong, Jirachi, and Metagross are 2HKOed, and all Cresselia and Snorlax are 3HKOed. All Tyranitar are 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, foiling their attempts to Pursuit you.</p>

<p>If you run Rapid Spin on this set, then as a lead it fills a nice niche in being able to beat suicide leads and deal massive damage to other common leads. If one elects to use Rapid Spin, the process goes as follows. They set up Stealth Rock, and you Hydro Pump to deal enough damage so that Focus Sash saves them. Then use Rapid Spin, which will not only finish their lead off, but leave the field clear of Stealth Rock. Rapid Spin is also not affected by Taunt, meaning you can use the same process whether you're Taunted or not. It also has Natural Cure, allowing you to recover from painful status simply by switching. Life Orb Starmie also has the potential to beat the more defensive spinners such as Rotom-appliance and Spiritomb so Rapid Spin also makes a good choice once they are removed.</p>

<p>Hydro Pump is emphasized for STAB because it is required to get some specific kills. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are used to hit the Pokemon that resist Water. Even though it isn't using any HP EVs, Starmie can still switch into Heatran and Recover capitalizes this ability. If you plan on using Rapid Spin, use it over Ice Beam, as it grants less coverage than Thunderbolt does. Be careful when using this as your Rapid Spinner; it is much frailer than normal and Life Orb reduces its survivability.</p>

<p>Grass Knot is an option to hit some Waters other than Gyarados and Vaporeon harder if you'd like. Psychic can be thrown in to OHKO Gengar for sure, but Surf with Stealth Rock does that already.</p>

[SET]
name: Rain Dance Support
move1: Rain Dance
move2: Surf
move3: Thunder
move4: Recover
item: Damp Rock
evs: 136 HP / 156 Def / 216 Spe
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Starmie makes an excellent choice for a Rain Dance supporter with access to STAB Surf, Thunder, and Recover. Switch in on something that doesn't threaten Starmie all that much, such as a Choiced attack Starmie resists, then Rain Dance. Not only does it power up Surf and make Thunder 100% accurate, it also provides your team with invaluable support if you have Kingdra or Kabutops in the wings.</p>

<p>Damp Rock is the best choice for item as it increases the length of Rain. Starmie can use Recover, so losing Leftovers isn't so bad.</p>

[SET]
name: TrickStar (Flame Orb)
move1: Surf / Psychic
move2: Recover
move3: Thunderbolt
move4: Trick
item: Flame Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 136 HP / 156 Def / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Starmie is the sort of Pokémon that brings in either a bulky special wall or a physical attacker with strong super effective attacks like Pursuit. With Trick and Flame Orb, it now has a way of dealing with the latter. Few physical attackers will enjoy the drop in attack from the inflicted burn, and few walls particularly enjoy the 1/8 HP residual damage each turn. Starmie's Natural Cure will get rid of the nasty burn status as soon as it switches, just in case you used the set in an odd fashion.</p>

<p>If you switch Starmie into an attack, the Flame Orb will activate and give you a burn at the end of turn, before you have had a chance to attack. An experienced player will know straightaway that you plan on Tricking the Flame Orb, and so will switch to something that can take the burn. However, if you switch Starmie in after one of your pokemon has fainted, you will get a chance to use an attack before the Flame Orb activates and so you retain the element of surprise. Arguably the best usage of this set would be to bring it out when one of your Pokémon faint, and then Trick straight away, predicting hopefully a Weavile or Tyranitar trying to ruin your fun.</p>

<p>The same anti-Gyarados spread works here, though you can no longer switch into Stealth Rock and win every time. The EVs also minimizes burn damage. </p>

<p>Psychic is included in the set to OHKO any Heracross who switches into the expected Trick. It also allows you to make the best use of outspeeding Gengar. Thunderbolt goes in the last slot for Gyarados and other Water-types.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Reflect and Light Screen can be used in conjunction to support the team. Using Life Orb or Expert Belt on the Choice Specs set is an option to make Starmie a late game sweeper. Thunder Wave is always a great attack for crippling switch-ins. It is especially useful on Starmie because Ground-types are deterred by the prospect of a STAB Surf, but watch out for Heracross. Toxic works for Dusknoir or Rotom formes that try and block your Rapid Spin.</p>

<p>In early DPPt play, a "Counter" set, featuring Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Recover, was a great option to effectively stop an opposing Garchomp, Gyarados, or Infernape. However, with the removal of Garchomp, a threat Starmie was designed to counter, this set is no longer as necessary. Salamence (the other target of Ice Beam) can OHKO Starmie with Draco Meteor or Outrage, making Starmie a poor response to any Salamence. Thus, one could effectively replace Ice Beam with Rapid Spin, which results in the analysis's first set.</p>

[EVs]
<p>For most sets (the Rapid Spin set), always run 216 Speed EVs to outrun Timid Gengar and Naive Infernape. 252 HP / 20 Def / 20 SpD gives Starmie the best overall defenses with 216 Speed, but in order for Starmie to effectively counter Gyarados, it needs to invest in Defense in particular. If you find that most Gengar you face hold a Choice Scarf, then you can drop down to 347 Speed (200 EVs) for Naive Infernape. If you wish to go even lower in terms of Speed, aim for 300 (neutral Salamence), 290 (Adamant Electivire), 285 (Jolly Mamoswine), or 280 (neutral Lucario). All remaining EVs should go in HP.</p>

<p>EVs on the Specs set are pretty generic, but you can drop down to 216 Speed and put 40 EVs into HP if you don't care about the Speed tie with Azelf or Raikou.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Starmie is a very effective Rapid Spinner and counter to some of the fourth generation's greatest threats. One of the game's fastest Recovers and decent defensive stats allow it to go toe-to-toe with some of the game's scarier threats, such as Dragon Dance Gyarados, and win. Access to Reflect and Rapid Spin is another huge plus. Pursuit being omnipresent in the standard metagame hurts Starmie a lot though; it has to be a bit more careful when choosing its attacks to hit Pursuit users for as much damage as possible. Additionally, everything hitting faster and harder has done Starmie no favors in its countering abilities. That said, Starmie has its downsides, but it still is a very useful Pokémon for any team.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Blissey, Snorlax, and Lanturn switch in for free and all can pack super effective attacks. Snorlax also has Pursuit, which can KO a fleeing Starmie. Both Blissey and Snorlax should be on watch for Trick though. Lanturn resists every attack Starmie usually carries except Grass Knot, which does very little to the light Lanturn. Lanturn also doesn't mind being Tricked a Choice Specs at all. Special defensive Milotic can take two Thunderbolts and doesn't really mind Flame Orb as much as one would think.</p>

<p>While most Pursuiters aren't guaranteed a safe switch-in, Pokemon such as Heracross, Tyranitar, Weavile, Metagross, and Scizor all scare Starmie with their powerful Pursuits. However, Heracross has to watch out for Psychic, Weavile has to watch out for practically any attack, and Tyranitar / Metagross / Scizor have some trouble with repeated Surfs. That said, Pursuit is often still an incredibly effective means to dispose of Starmie.</p>

<p>Spiritomb, Rotom-formes, and Dusknoir shut down the Rapid Spin set completely with their STAB super effective attacks and ability to block Rapid Spin. Spiritomb in particular is a problem as Sucker Punch and Pursuit put Starmie in a checkmate position.</p>

<p>Sub/Calm Minders such as Thunderbolt Jirachi and Raikou can set up on Starmie with no problems, excluding the Choice Specs set.</p>
 
Uh, a few things:

TirckSpecs should probably be Timid, Trick Scarf should be an option over it, and they really don't play differently enough to merit a new set IMO. (Oh, by the way, I love how horribly wrong old analysis was about GK / Surf)

Trick / Flame Orb sounds kind of dumb you know with no Leftovers and increasing residual damage but whatever, I'll add it in soon.

I'm basically waiting for the vote to be over.
 
Uh, a few things.

In my TrickSpecs analysis, I have mentioned running a Timid nature. However, I have also justified why running Modest over Timid is preferable, and why the loss of speed isn't so much of an issue now that Jolly Garchomp is no longer OU.

When using TrickOrb, are you planning on staying in once you have tricked away your Flame Orb? No, you will switch out, curing your burn with Natural Cure. Also, if you read my analysis, I explain that the best way to play it is to use Trick before the orb burns you.
You will probably get Leftovers from a wall if you Tricked them, or even if you didn't, you can Trick again later on in the game to get some.

Chris, your nitpicks were answered in my analysis. Please read through it first before starting to pick it apart. Thanks.
 
Except that the loss of Speed is a huge issue because Gengar and Infernape are horribly common. This was already discussed at length in the DP Starmie analysis. This isn't a "matter of fact" that one is better than the other, so I don't get why you are criticizing my difference of opinion and am assuming I'm too ignorant to read your analysis.

Your analysis for Flame Orb was inaccurate, as if you switch in it's _impossible_ not to be burned by Flame Orb. Sorry! Except on the revenge kill of course, but if you're revenge killing you might as well OHKO with something faster rather than cripple with a Burn.
 
Chris is me said:
Except that the loss of Speed is a huge issue because Gengar and Infernape are horribly common. This was already discussed at length in the DP Starmie analysis. This isn't a "matter of fact" that one is better than the other, so I don't get why you are criticizng my difference of opinion and am assuming I'm too ignorant to read your analysis.

Your analysis for Flame Orb was inaccurate, as if you switch in it's _impossible_ not to be burned by Flame Orb. Sorry!
Click to expand...

(Quote) <p>If you switch Starmie into an attack, the Flame Orb will activate and give you a burn at the end of turn, before you have had a chance to attack. An experienced player will know straightaway that you plan on Tricking the Flame Orb, and so will switch to something that can take the Burn. However, if you switch Starmie in after one of your pokemon has fainted, you will get a chance to use an attack before the Flame Orb activates and so you retain the element of surprise. Arguably the best usage of this set would be to bring it out when one of your pokemon faint, and then Trick straight away. Very, very few pokemon will enjoy taking the Burn.</p> (/Quote)

Yes.

That is why I thought you didn't read my analysis. Because the points you are making have been addressed in it.
 
Name something that Starmie (1) couldn't otherwise OHKO that's (2) slower than Starmie and (3) a grave physical threat to a team (Quick Attack Scizor doesn't count) and then I'll consider it. I'm just trying to figure out a good use for what seems like a really gimmicky option.
 
Chris, I have tested this out on Shoddy, and it works. I also know for a fact that battlers such as TAY have used it to great success as well. I'm assuming you have used this set before too since you know all too well how 'gimmicky' it is.

Here, this is turning into a shitfest. Let's stop arguing. Sorry if I was brash, but I didn't take kindly to what I thought was you brushing off my set without reading into it.

I'm going to edit in some of the changes you suggested, such as Timid, and then we can carry on from there.
 
I'm still waiting for an answer to the above question. I fail to understand how it is supposed to be used. I'll have no objection at all to including it if there's an example given.

I'm probably just going to do Trick / Psychic in the last slot of Specs (and Scarf), so don't worry too much about the wording of TrickStar (though I will incorporate your wording of how to use Trick).
 
Chris is me said:
Name something that Starmie (1) couldn't otherwise OHKO that's (2) slower than Starmie and (3) a grave physical threat to a team (Quick Attack Scizor doesn't count) and then I'll consider it. I'm just trying to figure out a good use for what seems like a really gimmicky option.
Click to expand...

You are asking for something subjective. A pokemon doesn't have to have those qualities for it to be a physical threat to Starmie and the team.

There are, in fact, many things that will not enjoy taking the Burn from Starmie. Weavile, Metagross and Scizor can switch into Starmie and not be OHKOed. They can then do significant damage to Starmie with Pursuit as it switches. If you Burn them, it allows you to switch without being OHKOed, and leave them crippled for the rest of the match. You also take away their sweeping item (Choice items you can use to trick again later), weakening them twofold.

Blissey's and Snorlax's Leftovers are taken from them, and in return instead of recovery per turn they lose health every turn. You can say, but oh, Blissey has Natural Cure and Snorlax has Rest. But the Flame Orb will burn them every time they switch back in/ wake up.

Imo, a Burn is the most crippling status after sleep. It incapacitates physical sweepers and walls alike. Truth be told, I don't see how it is a gimmicky set when there are so few things that will shrug off the burn.
 
I'm asking for something that Starmie can /counter/ with Flame Orb before the surprise is given away. Though beating those guys is helpful, they'll likely come in to Starmie so flame orb will be given away.

Toxic is better on Blissey so what it does to her is irrelavent imo.

Logs please?
 
Sorry, but Toxic isn't better on Blissey. For one, it can just switch out and heal itself. Secondly, it still has its leftovers.

I don't have any saved logs, and shoddy is down for me atm. But don't worry, I'll get you some.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the Orb Starmie is meant to use Trick straight away, before the Burn gives away the set you are running. I think I mentioned that in my edit, I can't remember. But it will cripple Pursuit users as well as things like Celebi and Blissey, so I really don't think Flame Orb Trick is a gimmick.
 
We're going in circles. The only way it could Trick straight away is if it switches in to Weavile (faster), Metagross (something will be suspected), and Scizor (Quick Attack). That's why I asked the question, which you haven't really answered.
 
Oh right. Well from my experience, Weavile tends to switch into Starmie, not the other way around. Starmie also doesn't normally switch into Scizor or Metagross. Bring Starmie in on say, Infernape, and then use Trick straight away. Most likely Infernape will switch, and the switch in will get burned. The reason this set is so effective on Starmie is because almost all of its switch ins are either physical sweepers with Pursuit/ are faster, or Special walls. Both get screwed by the loss of their item and the burn.
 
Well, I would say another good reason to Trick Flame Orb is for Tyranitar, and it should be listed in the analysis even though it may seem a little weird. Plus, Starmie can somewhat get burned because of Natural Cure, and the item you'll probably get by Tricking is Leftovers anyway.
 
The only beneficial situation that Flame Orb will work without spoiling its surprise value is if after a kill Starmie comes in and Weavile or Tyranitar switch in on it. Still, eh, why not... sounds sketchy but I'll throw it in once the results of the Deoxys vote come back (I might have to REALLY revamp this if he's Uber)

Added your set, reworded it a bit and removed a bit about the EVs minimizing Burn damage (it's really not that big of a deal honestly as you have to cut your HP to do it so the effect cancels out). Also, Flame Orb is really a lot less devastating for special tanks as you're making it out to be; you seem to forget that Toxic compounds damage and would thus be preferred for them.

Also, uh, Starmie is a horrible Salamence counter.
 
Yeah it would be okay, but I would prefer not to have my Starmie holding a Choice Band from TTar / Weavile..It would just be so annoying =\ Would it be THAT useful?
 
Arael said:
Well, you could pass the Choice Band later in the match to, say, Blissey or Zapdos.
Click to expand...
True, but as soon as you have CB they will probably know you will Trick again, and just "predict" it and go to x. Many things don't mind CB..

IMO it is just a bit too unreliable. I think TrickSpecs is obviously deserving of a set, but "TrickOrb" is a bit too much, "Other Options". Willing to see other people's opinions though.
 
I did an analysis of TrickSpecs as well. We'll have to see if Chrisisme adds it as a separate set or as another option on the SpecStar.

EDIT: My bad. But a bit of Slashitis, no?
 
Legacy Raider said:
I did an analysis of TrickSpecs as well. We'll have to see if Chrisisme adds it as a separate set or as another option on the SpecStar.
Click to expand...

It's already on there.

The "you'll get stuck with a Choice Band" point is not one to ignore, you know. When Starmie comes back in I'd go straight to my burned Weavile to get the item back and annoy Starmie.
 
Mosty taking on physical threats by coming in, forcing them to switch and threatening Surf/Bolt/Beam and Recovering off the damage. And generally staying alive as a Rapid Spinner.
 
Thanks Great Sage!

The specific spread used throughout the analysis guarantees survival of a +1 DD Earthquake from LO Gyarados with Stealth Rock and Leftovers factored in. More offensive minded sets should be using Choice items or Life Orb anyway.
 
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