Resource Stall in ORAS

[ed wins]

I agree with AM that Mega-Altaria is a bigger threat to stall as opposed to Megagross. Rather, I should say that Mega-Altaria HAS the potential to be a bigger threat to stall the Megagross due to Roost which grants it longevity despite hazards, and due to the potential combination of Heal Bell + Dragon Dance and mixed sets. Mega-Altaria is, by essence, more of a type based matchup than dual STABs+Grass Knot+Hammer Arm Megagross because you are forced to handle it differently depending on the set that it is running, while Megagross can just be whithered and eliminated, even with the anti Stall set.

Stalls answers to Altaria consist of:

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Unaware Clefable misses out on the OHKO to Altaria with Moon Blast while getting 2HKOd in the process. However, the Altaria user can easily switch out of this and once again begin boosting on something like Sableye or Chansey, especially if Facade is being run over Frustration or Double-Edge.
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 188-224 (61.2 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is a very good answer to DD Altaria, as it can just barely survive the 2HKO and can Toxic stall it to death. However, you better keep it status and Knock Off free and you better not choke and get critted. However, Facade Altaria can break through Quagsire on the switch.
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is probably the best answer that stall has to Altaria. However, it loses to the mixed set after one switch in and losses to the very rare specially biased set 100% of the time.


0 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 180-212 (41.6 - 49%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Skarmory to phaze it out to deal with it later, or it can stop a set up if the very rare Iron Head is run if Skarmory is specially defensive. However, Skarmory still loses to the mixed set.

0 Atk Skarmory Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 134-158 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 100-118 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 228-270 (68.2 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is a great answer to Altaria, but it lacks recovery and Altaria can hit it on the switch and run away from the Gyro Ball,
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 89-105 (26.3 - 31%) -- 80.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (92 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 168-198 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (138 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 252-296 (82 - 96.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 270-320 (87.9 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

At full HP, Ferrothorn can always win 1v1 against every set not named specially biased. However, the mixed set still handles him well.
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 68-81 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 264-312 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (145 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 272-324 (88.5 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Specially defensive Excadrill can check Altaria, but still loses to Earthquake.
192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 306-362 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 206-246 (67.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage

Same story as Excadrill.
192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 304-358 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 158-188 (51.4 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, as far as stall breakers go, I feel like Thundurus, Mega-Heracross, and Mega-Pinsir also deserve a mention as they can tear apart stall teams to the point where they can no longer function with their lost partners.

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 Spa / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot/Psychic/Taunt

There is nothing on stall that can safely switch in on this, and even the worse of players can at least secure one kill with Wall Breaker Thundurus.
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 146-172 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 359-424 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 536-632 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 471-556 (141 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 356-421 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 593-702 (150.5 - 178.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 247-291 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 203-239 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts > Skill Link
EVs: 252 Attack / 252 Spe / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missle/Mega Horn
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast/Bullet Seed
- Bullet Seed/Swords Dance/Substitute

This thing breaks stall like nobodies business. It has the ability to 1/2HKO every switch in, and Scarf Gothitelle can only revenge a healthy Heracross if it is at -1.

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-189 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 319-376 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 390-460 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 640-760 (162.4 - 192.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 280-330 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 185-225 (60.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter > Aerilate
EVs: 252 Attack / 252 Spe / 4 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat/Earthquake
- Frustration
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance

While Pinsir does require Skarmory to be broken or eliminated, Stall pretty much loses something every time that Pinsir is brought out on any specially defensive mon, as nothing can safely switch in to him.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 157-186 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 328-387 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

If this thing manages to get a burn free Swords Dance, it's basically over late game when most walls won't be at near max HP.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

ed wins

You neglect to mention mega venu as a altaria switch in
Cresselia handles mixed thundurus
Unaware Clefable can sort of check heracross also so can acrobatics gliscor

 

[Celticpride]

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 Spa / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot/Psychic/Taunt

There is nothing on stall that can safely switch in on this, and even the worse of players can at least secure one kill with Wall Breaker Thundurus.
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 146-172 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 359-424 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 536-632 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 471-556 (141 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 356-421 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 593-702 (150.5 - 178.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 247-291 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 203-239 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I guess I feel like this should be addressed because mixed Thundurus is actually becoming less effective instead of more effective imo, and that all really goes down to the slashitis on the last moveslot. The way I see it, there's a handful of fat Grounds that Electrics in general have to deal with (or not deal with), and Thundy kinda has to pick and choose his battles. HP Ice beats TankChomp and Gliscor, but Grass Knot doesn't. The inverse is true for Hippowdon, Quag and Gastrodon. There's also three viable stall / balanced Megas in Venu, Latias, and Altaria that all hard check / counter Thundurus. And running Psychic to lure Venu actually makes your overall coverage worse. I guess the tone of "nothing on stall can safely switch in on this" seemed a little off when mixed Thundy really only "destroys" outdated stall cores like SkarmCham and is actually not that hard to play around.

 

[SketchUp]

Thundurus and Mega Heracross are wallbreakers, not stallbreakers.
Mixed Thundurus doesn't run Psychic so it is beaten by Mega Venusaur, Calm Clefable, SpD Zard X, Celebi, Mega Latias, SpD Mega Altaria and Cresselia. If you run Grass Knot, Tankchomp and Gliscor beat you; if you run HP Ice, Quagsire and Hippowdon beat you.
Mega Heracross is defeated by Clefable and Mega Altaria. Landorus-T needs Toxic or HP Flying which it really shouldn't run because Mega Heracross isn't that common, same with Acrobatics Gliscor. Gothitelle traps it and does 75% with Psychic, Talonflame checks, Tornadus-T checks, Brave Bird Skarmory checks.

 

[ed wins]

Thundurus and Mega Heracross are wallbreakers, not stallbreakers.
Mixed Thundurus doesn't run Psychic so it is beaten by Mega Venusaur, Calm Clefable, SpD Zard X, Celebi, Mega Latias, SpD Mega Altaria and Cresselia. If you run Grass Knot, Tankchomp and Gliscor beat you; if you run HP Ice, Quagsire and Hippowdon beat you.
Mega Heracross is defeated by Clefable and Mega Altaria. Landorus-T needs Toxic or HP Flying which it really shouldn't run because Mega Heracross isn't that common, same with Acrobatics Gliscor. Gothitelle traps it and does 75% with Psychic, Talonflame checks, Tornadus-T checks, Brave Bird Skarmory checks.

They are wall breakers, yes, but stall works best when every member of the team is alive and and stall begins to whittle more and more as member after member is no longer available to do their job.
As you mentioned, Cresselia is a direct counter to that particular mixed set, and it gets beaten by "x" only if it is not running "x" coverage move. Every stall team is different, and all that it takes is one misplay while scouting his moveset or trying to stall the LO damage from a wall to go down that quickly. Also, while Cresselia is an incredible super wall, you have to understand that not every stall team carries Cresselia, or Gothitelle for that matter, and can be incredibly weak to either of these things. Good stall is admirable and difficult to do, but not even the best of stall can handle every single team or set out there.
that's just impossible

 

[ed wins]

ed wins

You neglect to mention mega venu as a altaria switch in
Cresselia handles mixed thundurus
Unaware Clefable can sort of check heracross also so can acrobatics gliscor

I somehow missed your tagxd
I didn't forget to include mega venusaur, I just didn't include it because I've yet to see any one use it in ORAS stall when you have Sableye or Altaria that can do a much better job with their mega slot

 

[Analytic]

I somehow missed your tagxd
I didn't forget to include mega venusaur, I just didn't include it because I've yet to see any one use it in ORAS stall when you have Sableye or Altaria that can do a much better job with their mega slot

Well not really. Now that Landorus is gone, I think VenuTran has become very effective. M-Venusaur serves a blanket check to so many mons in the metagame and has surely benifitted from the ban

 

[PK Bash]

For what it's worth, I use Mega Venusaur on a semistall team and it works incredibly well for me. I can speak from experience when I say you shouldn't neglect it as a viable Stall mega - it kind of sits in the same position as Mega Slowbro where it works really well, but is not especially popular, on Stall. I personally think it's worth mentioning where appropriate. I wouldn't say Sableye and Altaria do a "much better job" - although they are arguably more useful to Stall generally, Venu also pulls a lot of weight, I can promise you that, is more useful for certain teams/objectives and shouldn't be discredited or played down. In my opinion.

 

[yuruuu]

skarmory, mandibuzz, togekiss, empoleon, mantine(?), mega scizor, mega blastoise, should be under hazard control too. even defog latias can be used on select stall teams.

 

[Analytic]

skarmory, mandibuzz, togekiss, empoleon, mantine(?), mega scizor, mega blastoise, should be under hazard control too. even defog latias can be used on select stall teams.

I will add this later on when I'm on a computer

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Hm i'm kind of wondering what the appeal is in using mega altaria on stall. Sure it checks quite a bit, but its easy to wear down and the stuff is beats is beaten by other stall mons.
Garchomp? gets toxicd and hit by eq pretty hard. Also easy to wall.
Zards? Y is handled by chansey and X is beaten by hippo, alo, quag, slowbro
Keldeo: its risks getting burned. Also handled by a lot of other things.
Lati@s gets hit but psyshock hard also they are pretty easy to handle
Dragonite I guess but ES and EQ still hit hard

> already starting to get into rarer stuff

Conkeldurr? pretty rare and hurt by ice punch and poison jab
Mega gyarados: guess this is good but loses to icefang
sableye? dislikes status but good
zapdos? obscure and pretty easy to check
Infernape? Victini? Crawdaunt? Mega Heracross?

Basically I don't think it checks all that much, some of the stuff it does check is rare, is prone to status w/o heal bell, would usually rather use another mega on stall. It is quite good on offense or balance.

 

[SketchUp]

You underrate the fact that checking both Charizards at the same time is pretty awesome, while it also beats other very big threats to stall which are very hard to cover: SD Crawdaunt, SD PH Breloom, Mega Heracross, NP Thundurus, Taunt Serperior and Taunt MGyarados. Mega Altaria gives great utility in Heal Bell and Roar / Perish Song and its damage output is still decent even uninvested which prevents the stall team from becoming too passive which really sucks with threats like RD Manaphy everywhere. Sure it doesn't check as many pokemon as Mega Slowbro or Mega Venusaur do, but it definitely got some niches over these pokemon.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

You underrate the fact that checking both Charizards at the same time is pretty awesome, while it also beats other very big threats to stall which are very hard to cover: SD Crawdaunt, SD PH Breloom, Mega Heracross, NP Thundurus, Taunt Serperior and Taunt MGyarados. Mega Altaria gives great utility in Heal Bell and Roar / Perish Song and its damage output is still decent even uninvested which prevents the stall team from becoming too passive which really sucks with threats like RD Manaphy everywhere. Sure it doesn't check as many pokemon as Mega Slowbro or Mega Venusaur do, but it definitely got some niches over these pokemon.

Checking zards is very good but lot of those other threats have extremly low usage that makes it hard to justify altaria.
Crawd and hera have like 2% ou usage
Skarm, celebi, goth can all beat breloom still good tho.
Thundurus is beat by: Quagsire, clefable, chansey, venu
Serp checked by: celebi, jirachi, chansey, skarm, venu, scizor
Mega gyarados also quite good to check but again its pretty rare.

Heal bell isn't too hard to find on stall.
Also perish songs limited pp makes it meh.

Honestly it a an amazing mon, but lot of the stuff it beats isn't common. When playing stall i find its best to beat whats common.

 

[Celticpride]

Honestly it a an amazing mon, but lot of the stuff it beats isn't common. When playing stall i find its best to beat whats common.

Um what? Keldeo, Lati@s, Zards, Lopunny, Thundurus, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Serperior, Mega Gyarados and Lando-T aren't common? That's quite a few top 30 usage mons (1695 stats) that are solidly beaten and I'm pretty sure there's a few more that Alt can shaky check at the worst. I'm not really sure you're going to find another stall Mega outside of Sableye that can pull that much work. Something like Mega Latias or Mega Venusaur seems like they would handle less (and if you think Alt is easy to wear down, Venu's a whole other story).

Edit: I didn't forget Sableye jpw it's just not top 30 in usage D:

 

[jpw234]

You guys are forgetting that it beats mega sableye, which is huge because most stalls get 6-0ed by opposing sableye stall or balance

Ultimately it serves as role compression allowing you to use a muuuch larger variety of supporting mons. When you use typical shit you're locked into Chansey for Char-Y/Thund, Quag/Hippo for Char-X, some bulky grass for Gyara, one of a few Keld counters, etc, and you're basically just admitting that you lose to Mega-Hera and Mega-Medicham in the current meta. Altaria lets you beat a bunch of really threatening shit on both sides of the spectrum WHILE providing an important source of offensive pressure with the ability to run Hyper Voice and usually at least one of Fire Blast/EQ which seriously helps against offensive teams, PLUS you get Heal Bell which is very important utility that you also typically have to stretch for (Chansey/Clefable).

Right off the bat using Alt means you don't have to use Chansey, that alone is a massive boon for current stall since Chansey is so ass in the current meta sapping the shit out of your momentum every time it comes in.

I think that Alt is probably the best mega for stall at the moment outside possibly Venu

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Um what? Keldeo, Lati@s, Zards, Lopunny, Thundurus, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Serperior, Mega Gyarados and Lando-T aren't common? That's quite a few top 30 usage mons (1695 stats) that are solidly beaten and I'm pretty sure there's a few more that Alt can shaky check at the worst. I'm not really sure you're going to find another stall Mega outside of Sableye that can pull that much work. Something like Mega Latias or Mega Venusaur seems like they would handle less (and if you think Alt is easy to wear down, Venu's a whole other story).

Edit: I didn't forget Sableye jpw it's just not top 30 in usage D:

Thing is half those Latios, lopunny, thundurus garchomp and lando-t can all 2hko or come close to 2hko with EQ, hp ice, return, and psyshock. if altaria is your only answer your in trouble.

Also mega gyara isn't terribly common. maybe 5% of teams. gyara itself is common but only about hald are mega.

jpw234 I really don't think its admiting you lose to hera/medicham. Gliscor and clefable can sort of handle hera. Also can be revenged by gothitelle.
Medicham is beaten by sableye or basically any psychic type on stall: cresselia, slowbro, mew. Also zen headbutt 2hkos altaria also.

Against opposing sableye stall you can use sylveon or clefable. you win with CM Slowbro. You get into a crit war with your own sabeleye stall Unless no CM then you just win.. Or at worst you can pp stall with chansey.

 

[yuruuu]

I'm just going to leave this quote here about Chansey being a momentum killer...

And let's get one thing straight: Stall, by nature, is a 'momentum kill'. Don't ever think it's anything else. You can pressure, you can create switches and you can make plays, but YOU are doing that, not the stall team. Because of the inherent lack of speed, the general lack of power and the usual need for recovery, stall teams are always going to be able to be pushed on the back foot. If you think you can consistently keep pressure throughout a match with a stall team, you're dead wrong. As soon as they use U-turn, taunt, Baton pass, a boosting move or move into a threat, whatever you've been doing doesn't matter: You play on their terms because even when you do all of this, your opponent may have a mon that simply invalidates what you do. And for stall teams, that's fine because you generally are able to win on an opponent's term unless they bring stall breakers or ways to crack your team with ease. No matter what, if you don't have speed to outspeed what naturally beats your team, you don't have a chance.

So Chansey being a momentum sink? Guys, we've known this forever. It hasn't changed and this isn't a great epiphany. If you're going to be bothering with momentum, go build a voltturn team with some bulky mons. I've done it, it isn't as effective when you try to form it to a true stall team. Hence why I never pursued it heavily. Chansey may be steal your own momentum but it sure as hell does a nice job of making sure none of your opponent's special attackers GAIN any momentum. Sure, there's some special mons that give chansey hell, but very few outside of landorus, mixed thundy and taunt gard manage (which must avoid losing around 72 HP to do so).

As I said, the only stall that really cares if it loses momentum is sableye... All other stalls should be prepared to expect it... Technically, I think a sable team not prepared to expect it isn't any good, but whatever... I won't use a slower gen4 rotom- with a better ability.

 

[Celticpride]

Thing is half those Latios, lopunny, thundurus garchomp and lando-t can all 2hko or come close to 2hko with EQ, hp ice, return, and psyshock. if altaria is your only answer your in trouble.

Also mega gyara isn't terribly common. maybe 5% of teams. gyara itself is common but only about hald are mega.

Calcs

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 284-336 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 130-153 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria: 133-156 (37.6 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Thundurus: 183-216 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 314-372 (87.9 - 104.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

That's just stock standard defensive Altaria. 1.2% is basically non-existant imo and that's also assuming you're opponent predicts right every time Alt comes in.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Calcs

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 284-336 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 130-153 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria: 133-156 (37.6 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Thundurus: 183-216 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 314-372 (87.9 - 104.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

That's just stock standard defensive Altaria. 1.2% is basically non-existant imo and that's also assuming you're opponent predicts right every time Alt comes in.

Like i'm saying not bad, but add in a bit of extra chip and lot of those turn into 2hkos. Add in spikes, a double switch so altaria has to take sr twice, u-turn damage, volt switch etc...

nonmixed 252 thundurus wins.
LO garchomp (still a thing and pretty good lure imo) beats altaria.

If Altaria is your only option to stop those then your in trouble. If you have other ways to stop them then why are you using altaria. Not saying its bad just from my experience its gets overwhelmed to easily and other stuff your supposed to beat: victini, megacross, crawd aren't used enough.

 

[bludz]

"If you have other ways to beat them then why are you using Altaria" what?

Its best to pack multiple checks/counters to big threats so they can't predict your only switch in every time among other things.

Altaria also offers heal bell support which frees up a spot on Chansey (if you're running it).

 

[SketchUp]

Like i'm saying not bad, but add in a bit of extra chip and lot of those turn into 2hkos. Add in spikes, a double switch so altaria has to take sr twice, u-turn damage, volt switch etc...

nonmixed 252 thundurus wins.
LO garchomp (still a thing and pretty good lure imo) beats altaria.

If Altaria is your only option to stop those then your in trouble. If you have other ways to stop them then why are you using altaria. Not saying its bad just from my experience its gets overwhelmed to easily and other stuff your supposed to beat: victini, megacross, crawd aren't used enough.

I don't really get this logic because the same applies to Mega Venusaur. That pokemon won't check Mega Diancie that well if you add tons of residual damage but you just have to make plays doesn't matter if you're using Altaria or Venusaur. Also, stall definitely has ways to beat pokemon like Zard Y, MGyara and MHera but it's almost impossible to make a team that handle all these wallbreakers really well. The difference between a pokemon like Venusaur and Altaria is that the things that Venusaur beats (Keldeo, Diancie, Azumarill) are less of a threat to stall (or easier to prepare for) than pokemon Altaria beats (PH Loom, Mega Gyara, Zards)

Checking zards is very good but lot of those other threats have extremly low usage that makes it hard to justify altaria.
Crawd and hera have like 2% ou usage
Skarm, celebi, goth can all beat breloom still good tho.
Thundurus is beat by: Quagsire, clefable, chansey, venu
Serp checked by: celebi, jirachi, chansey, skarm, venu, scizor
Mega gyarados also quite good to check but again its pretty rare.

Sure you can use Clefable for Sableye, Chansey for Zard Y, Quagsire for Zard X and Gliscor for Mega Heracross, but you're kinda forced to run the standard full stall teams that get shit on by so many pokemon that are common nowadays. Mega Altaria gives stall a way to beat all these big threats that are in general harder to prepare for when using stall than for stuff Mega Venusaur beats, which gives the stall team flexibility so it doesn't have to run Chansey / Skarm / Sableye / Clef on every build who just loses to pokemon like RD Manaphy and Tauntgar. Also, Mega Altaria gives Heal Bell support (''heal bell isn't too hard to find'' is not true because there are like 3 other viable Heal Bell users and they all need their other moves more than Altaria does) and some offensive presence which is great for stall to have.

 

[AM]

Gliscor is one of the most ass checks to Mega Heracross ever. The fact you're forced to run such a subpar move in Acrobatics in the ORAS meta and run a ton of speed which makes you have a garbage matchup against a good 70% of stuff you're suppose to be actually beating with lack of both of those traits with Gliscor I think is a huge waste of potential and realistically in practice you're going to just lose to the mandatory partners in the back that'll just play on your desperate attempt to check it with Gliscor.

Chansey sucks because it's a momentum killer that is able to murder momentum on a playstyle that is known for losing momentum lol if that makes sense. Like yeah you can sort of scapegoat all you want in using the "stall is a playstyle that is known to lose momentum" but this is kind of bs when a lot of the good stall teams I see rely on momentum through the use of Regen, hazards, and some sort of legitimate speed control in the form of Thunder Wave or a faster mon.

As far as M-Alt on stall goes there's a big misconception about it that I think some overlook when kind of missing why it's good. It's good in the hands of a good player who knows how to play stall or at least knows how to exploit openings to maintain longevity. There's a lot of people that don't know how to do this cause 1. Team probably had an issue to begin with as such it was a team problem where M-altaria couldn't provide much say it gets swept by M-Metagross or something. 2. Probably the most important point is that people don't know how to use M-alt on stall. You're not suppose to be getting to a point where it's murdered by wall-breakers and it's not suppose to function as one either or a sweeper. It's just a pivot, you heal up, Heal Bell, pop off a Hyper Voice or w/e and utilize its typing to exploit hazard damage because some things right off the bat will just lose to M-Altaria like Keldeo under most circumstances for example.

SketchUp I sort of get where you're coming from with the whole M-Venu + M-Alt comparison but you're waaaaaay off if Azumarill is being considered a non threat or of lesser value to some of the things you mentioned like M-Gyarados or PH Loom. It's arguably one of the most threatening things to stall because its answers or at least legitimate ones are all Spike prone, grounded, or kind of just are so situational in where the only real legitimate check to it when taking everything into account is Mega Venusaur, and still has a good matchup against a lot of different playstyles with different variations.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

"If you have other ways to beat them then why are you using Altaria" what?

Its best to pack multiple checks/counters to big threats so they can't predict your only switch in every time among other things.

Altaria also offers heal bell support which frees up a spot on Chansey (if you're running it).

Thing is with so many threats you can't afford to check/counter big threats multiple times. Besides if you have a true counter to it you don't need multiple counters.
heal bell users that fit on stall: Chansey, blissey, clefable, sylveon, togekiss, mew, celebi (fairly decent number)

I don't really get this logic because the same applies to Mega Venusaur. That pokemon won't check Mega Diancie that well if you add tons of residual damage but you just have to make plays doesn't matter if you're using Altaria or Venusaur. Also, stall definitely has ways to beat pokemon like Zard Y, MGyara and MHera but it's almost impossible to make a team that handle all these wallbreakers really well. The difference between a pokemon like Venusaur and Altaria is that the things that Venusaur beats (Keldeo, Diancie, Azumarill) are less of a threat to stall (or easier to prepare for) than pokemon Altaria beats (PH Loom, Mega Gyara, Zards)
Sure you can use Clefable for Sableye, Chansey for Zard Y, Quagsire for Zard X and Gliscor for Mega Heracross, but you're kinda forced to run the standard full stall teams that get shit on by so many pokemon that are common nowadays. Mega Altaria gives stall a way to beat all these big threats that are in general harder to prepare for when using stall than for stuff Mega Venusaur beats, which gives the stall team flexibility so it doesn't have to run Chansey / Skarm / Sableye / Clef on every build who just loses to pokemon like RD Manaphy and Tauntgar. Also, Mega Altaria gives Heal Bell support (''heal bell isn't too hard to find'' is not true because there are like 3 other viable Heal Bell users and they all need their other moves more than Altaria does) and some offensive presence which is great for stall to have.

You don't really need tons of residual damage just a little. Also btw not really advocating mega venu here. Um Mega venu handles Mega Gyara pretty well. also handles loom... Loom also handled by celebi, cresselia, and skarm pretty well.

Rd manaphy can be handled via goth or SPD celebi. Taunt gar is annoying but SPD Sableye or gliscor work. Shadowball blissey works pretty well.

Again goth can just revenge hera. Or you can just lose to cross. Like i mentioned its only on like 2 % of all teams. Losing 1 in 50 battles isn't that bad.

 

[bludz]

Your argument was that Altaria is worn down easily and other things can check the things that it checks. Honestly that's true of so many pokemon bar ones like Gliscor and Clefable which are difficult to wear down.

I think you're exaggerating when you say it isn't that valuable in checking both Zards, Gyara, Keldeo, etc in one slot. While yes stall has viable options to deal with all the pokemon Altaria is an answer to, Altaria puts an ease on teambuilding by accounting for so many threats at once. And yes, while you can't bring multiple counters / checks to every top threat, Altaria does grant a certain luxury in that regard simply because of its fantastic typing. If you really only have one thing for every threat then you are going to lose the second one of your counters / checks is overloaded, which is why it's important to spread the burden.

Also it really doesn't care much about the Toxic from Chomp or Scald burns from Keldeo (which you mentioned as things that wear it down) if it's defensive Heal Bell.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Your argument was that Altaria is worn down easily and other things can check the things that it checks. Honestly that's true of so many pokemon bar ones like Gliscor and Clefable which are difficult to wear down.

I think you're exaggerating when you say it isn't that valuable in checking both Zards, Gyara, Keldeo, etc in one slot. While yes stall has viable options to deal with all the pokemon Altaria is an answer to, Altaria puts an ease on teambuilding by accounting for so many threats at once. And yes, while you can't bring multiple counters / checks to every top threat, Altaria does grant a certain luxury in that regard simply because of its fantastic typing. If you really only have one thing for every threat then you are going to lose the second one of your counters / checks is overloaded, which is why it's important to spread the burden.

Also it really doesn't care much about the Toxic from Chomp or Scald burns from Keldeo (which you mentioned as things that wear it down) if it's defensive Heal Bell.

Thing with Altaria is a turn it spends heal belling is a turn it can't roost.
Example scenario:
rocks are up on altaria's side.
You switch in altaria on a garchomp's toxic
Altaria heal bells as the garchomp player switches to an altaria counter.
Altaria is forced out at ~82%
Next time Altaria comes in it is 2hko by Chomp EQ

Also by not using sableye (imo best stall mega) you are much more prone to hazards also losing to taunt.

In a perfect world having 2ndary checks counters would be great. But in this meta there are about 125 viable mons. About half of which are threatening to stall. 35 or so which are fairly common. (These numbers are just estimates)

By overlapping your coverage to one mon that is another threat you aren't handling. The second an opposing team brings something you don't counter you lose.
I'd rather lose after having one of my checks overloaded then by not having an answer at all.