You are confusing Eerie Spell with Freezing Glare. Eerie Spell is on the watchlist for its strong PP draining effect.
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STAB STABmons
- Thread starter in the hills
- Start date
You are very right; edited my post to reflect that mistake. Eerie Spell will definitely be something to watch out for though, no doubt.
Crown Tundra STABmons BanlistNew Pokemon Bans
Lugia
Ho-oh
Groudon
Kyogre
Rayquaza
Palkia
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-O
Genesect
Landorus-Incarnate
Xerneas
Yveltal
Power Construct / Zygarde-Complete
Kartana
Pheromosa
Calyrex-Ghost
Calyrex-Ice
New Pokemon Unbans:
Darmanitan
Gengar
Pokemon Watchlist:
Aerodactyl
Blaziken
Latios
Tornadus-Therian
Thundurus-Therian
Thundurus-Incarnate
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Naganadel
Blacephalon
Spectrier
New Moves Bans:
Geomancy
Lovely Kiss
Thousand Arrows
Move Watchlist:
Eerie Spell
Glacial Lance (130 BP, 100 Acc, no drawback)
Oblivion Wing
This is our finalized initial banlist.
We elected to ban neither of the new legendary horse duo. The Ghost-type one has negligible coverage, while the Ice-type one is a slow and bulky mono-Ice type. By contrast both Calyrex fusions simply have too much in the way of stats. We do not yet know if they will be able to gain Calyrex's Grass moves, but either way they both have excellent movepools and will remain banned.
Gengar and Darmanitan were banned in a metagame with fewer tools to deal with them. We will keep our eye on them, however the new introductions make their power and Speed tiers less impressive and the council felt it was appropriate to give them another chance.
tagging Kris and The Immortal
Why isn’t Astral Barrage on the watch list with Glacial Lance?
It’s a Ghost Special version of Glacial Lance, but with 10 less BP for some reason.
I've done a ton of building in this meta over the last couple weeks with leaked stuff, and continued to build once everything was released, so I made some abridged notes on my thoughts on most of the mons I was using to pass to the other council members. After finishing that I felt like I may as well post them here too, so without further ado...
https://pastebin.com/eJT4RnJe
I stuck to what I was comfortable talking about, so there's some mons that I have built with that aren't on here, but these represent most of my personal opinions on the meta so far.
Also fuck Astral Barrage for deciding to exist AFTER I EV'd half my Gengar/Blace checks specifically for Moongeist Beam...
https://pastebin.com/eJT4RnJe
I stuck to what I was comfortable talking about, so there's some mons that I have built with that aren't on here, but these represent most of my personal opinions on the meta so far.
Also fuck Astral Barrage for deciding to exist AFTER I EV'd half my Gengar/Blace checks specifically for Moongeist Beam...
So, uh, I ran into a top 10 ladder player with my shitty mono-Flying team, and the resulting match had me realize just how good Galarian Moltres is as a wallbreaker/stallbreaker.
NEW TOY SYNDROME (Moltres-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Nasty Plot / Roost
- Taunt
- Fiery Wrath / Roost
Galartres has very good bulk, a respectable base 90 Speed, and the same defensive typing that makes Mandibuzz such a good wall in OU. Couple that with Berserk rewarding you for taking hits and recovering it off, and you get a very capable wallbreaker that can shut down and outlast defensive staples while remaining threatening as a booster due to its bulk. As far as priority goes, it's only weak to Accelerock and Ice Shard, and it has the natural bulk to live various First Impressions, Aqua Jets, Extreme Speeds, et cetera. Plus, bonking Spectral Thief users always helps. It struggles with Magearna, but that's what you have 5 other mons for.
I actually have a replay for once! Galartres puts in WORK during this battle, providing a not-so-obvious stop to Chansey due to Taunt, Berserk boosts, and Oblivion Wing's healing.
NEW TOY SYNDROME (Moltres-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Nasty Plot / Roost
- Taunt
- Fiery Wrath / Roost
Galartres has very good bulk, a respectable base 90 Speed, and the same defensive typing that makes Mandibuzz such a good wall in OU. Couple that with Berserk rewarding you for taking hits and recovering it off, and you get a very capable wallbreaker that can shut down and outlast defensive staples while remaining threatening as a booster due to its bulk. As far as priority goes, it's only weak to Accelerock and Ice Shard, and it has the natural bulk to live various First Impressions, Aqua Jets, Extreme Speeds, et cetera. Plus, bonking Spectral Thief users always helps. It struggles with Magearna, but that's what you have 5 other mons for.
I actually have a replay for once! Galartres puts in WORK during this battle, providing a not-so-obvious stop to Chansey due to Taunt, Berserk boosts, and Oblivion Wing's healing.
I added a couple clauses that were missing from the OP there, specifically OHKO and Evasion. This won't effect the meta at all as they were already in effect, just now they're listed properly. Shoutout alaserdolphin for pointing this out.
What I would like to hear from you!
The council has been discussing various Ghost types such as Gengar and Blacephalon and whether or not they are too strong for the metagame. However with the addition of Astral Barrage the question arises: where is this problem sourced? Would these mons still be problematic without Astral Barrage? So what I would like answered is;
Are some Ghost types a problem? If so which ones?
If so, would these Ghost types still be problematic if Astral Barrage was banned? Is Moongeist Beam strong enough?
If so, does the problem come from Astral Barrage, or is the primary culprit something else? Or something different for each?
Thoughts on the meta...
These categories are kinda loose, so don't give them too much credence. They're at least somewhat related to how good I thought stuff was going to be going in. I also didn't cover everything, because I wanted to actually post this sometime this year.
The Broken
Gengar is back and doing Gengar things. It still hits super hard with either Specs or Nasty Plot sets. Astral Barrage has only increased its fire power. We've seen this thing before, and I think I know where it's going to end up.
Naganadel does what it's always done. Hit hard with excellent dual STAB coverage, get Beast Boosted out of reasonable non-priority revenge killing range, and boost its SpA on forced switches. Here it gets access to Clangorous Soul, but I haven't actually seen that yet. Specs is another set that works well, especially with Naganadel's new access to Spikes allowing it to abuse switchins it can't break, espcially given that Sylveon, the most reliable spinner in the meta, cannot safely switch into Naganadel's STAB.
Both Band and Nasty Plot sets are absolutely incredible. Tyranitar can't reliably check either thanks to Superpower / U-Turn and Charti Berry sets respectively. Oblivion Wing gives Nasty Plot sets the sustainability to last throughout the match and outlast defensive answers without sacrificing moveslots. There is no single counter to this There are almost no reliable counters, and those that do exist tend to not be terribly efficient, and thanks to its good Speed tier and acceptable bulk (combined again with Oblivion Wing's recovery) offensive counterplay is difficult as well. Electric / Flying is a great typing, and Fighting coverage is all it really needs in this metagame.
It does the same thing as , except slower and stronger, and no physical sets. Scarf sets are a thing for this moreso than its faster forme, but mostly it just smashes through fatmons harder. Volt Absorb and its increased power means that some of the few counters to Thundurus can't counter Therian, such as Tapu Koko, but others can abuse its slower nature and inability to go physical or mixed. Overall the worse forme but still very much broken.
Nothing new or exciting here, just the same old Zygarde that sets up on pretty much the entire physical metagame and sweeps with one move. The loss of Hidden Power makes a lot of its old checks and counters a lot shakier. Buzzwole and Sylveon do a good job keeping this in check for now, but it's super hard to reliably deal with beyond those two mons.
The Great
Tyranitar may not be a new addition to this metagame, but it sure feels like it. This is our new S rank, the best mon in the meta, the thing it's really hard to build without that makes almost every team better. It's flexible in its roles, checks numerous top threats, and is offensively threatening. At first glance it didn't gain a ton this DLC, pretty much only getting Diamond Storm back, but with the reintroduction of otherwise difficult to answer Pokemon such as Blacephalon, Thundurus, and Latios it has become the glue many teams need. Unlike pre-DLC Toxapex I don't feel it is broken or banworthy at this time, merely very very good.
The Good
Blacephalon was banned last generation, but with V-Create restricted and its best counter Tyranitar everywhere Blacephalon has proven to merely be good. I have been liking Heavy Duty Boots on it, which allows a mixed offensive utility role. Shadow Sneak is very useful for revenge killing, and with its sky-high SpA it will always hit hard. Astral Barrage is a nuke and a half, although admittedly not THAT much of a buff over Moongeist Beam. Other sets are also nice, such as Specs, LO, or even Band (altho band with V-Create is meh). Fire / Ghost gives some great moves and Blacephalon has the stats to use them. If Tyranitar wasn't so common I suspect I would be calling for a ban but as it is I think it's not a terribly high priority.
Not metashaking by any means but Buzzwole is a good physical wall capable of stopping terrifying threats like Urshifu and Zygarde. It can also use some decent offensive sets such as No Retreat, which loves Leech Life recovery, and Band.
It's no Gen 7 Lando-T but it's still good. Stresh keeps saying he doesn't like defensive right now but I still find it effective if not nearly as good as last gen. Offensive has some issues with how common dual resists to its stabs are (both Thunduri (Thunduruses? Thundurusususususes?), Rotom-Mostofthem, Zapdos, Aerodactyl, etc.) and while this is no death knell for it it does make it easier to wall or pressure depending on the mon. Thundurus especially is nasty because if you Intimidate a Defiant set you're in trouble. However I doubt Lando-T will ever be less than good in STABmons, and it finds its way onto plenty of teams.
Latios is broken. Except Tyranitar exists. Both Specs and CSoul sets are difficult to check and are rather different to play against. Except Tyranitar messes up both pretty well. Aura Sphere is nasty for Tyranitar, but I've been running Chople on Tar largely for precisely that, which gives you a good bit more leeway in playing against Latios, as Csoul is only one-time and Specs is by far the most dangerous early on when Dragon Energy is at full or near full power. It's also worth noting that both of Latios' STABs have common immunities, making Specs sets vulnerable to being Protect'd -> switch to immunity.
I thought Tapu Lele would be broken going into this meta, but it hasn't shaken out that way. Lele hits hard with Expanding Force, but there are a number of ways to shut that down. The other Tapus are capable of resetting terrain on it making it notably less threatening, and the most dangerous sets are all choiced, which is abusable. It's also slow for this metagame, and easily offensively pressured. It hits hard, and with good prediction does a ton of damage. But it's nowhere near as absurd as I feared it would be. It may need a ban later on, but not a high priority to me.
The Not-So-Good
Aerodactyl is still a nuke. It's still really really hard to switch into. But that's not particularly special in this metagame, and it's so weak to rocks and frail that it doesn't really stand out. Its Speed tier is nice but not unmatchable. Regieleki is somewhat common and easily outpaces, while Koko and Spectrier match it. It won't be bad if you use it with the right support, and I feel that as bans start to happen and it has less competition it will get better, but right now it's not a top tier threat.
While Urshifu-Single-Strike was arguably broken pre-DLC, the metagame has become so Fairy-infested Urshifu just doesn't get chances to shine anymore. Buzzwole being introduced is also a major issue for it because Buzzwole is the single best wall for standard Urshifu sets. It COULD run Aerial Ace for Buzzwole... but then you're not running coverage for Fairies, or not running U-Turn. And you're running Aerial Ace.
The Outright Bad
In The Hills smells
Spectrier is so close to being broken. But it has like three non-STAB types in Special coverage, and they're all shit. Mud Shot, Dark Pulse, and some Normal moves. I have legitimately been considering running a Double Kick set and if that doesn't tell you how bad its movepool is idk what will. Ghost is not a good type for mono-attacking, and while there are so many types it pairs well with, Spectrier just didn't get what it needed. I understand it's good in other metas like Camo and OU but the meta hasn't worked for it here.
What I would like to hear from you!
The council has been discussing various Ghost types such as Gengar and Blacephalon and whether or not they are too strong for the metagame. However with the addition of Astral Barrage the question arises: where is this problem sourced? Would these mons still be problematic without Astral Barrage? So what I would like answered is;
Are some Ghost types a problem? If so which ones?
If so, would these Ghost types still be problematic if Astral Barrage was banned? Is Moongeist Beam strong enough?
If so, does the problem come from Astral Barrage, or is the primary culprit something else? Or something different for each?
Thoughts on the meta...
These categories are kinda loose, so don't give them too much credence. They're at least somewhat related to how good I thought stuff was going to be going in. I also didn't cover everything, because I wanted to actually post this sometime this year.
The Broken
Gengar is back and doing Gengar things. It still hits super hard with either Specs or Nasty Plot sets. Astral Barrage has only increased its fire power. We've seen this thing before, and I think I know where it's going to end up. Naganadel does what it's always done. Hit hard with excellent dual STAB coverage, get Beast Boosted out of reasonable non-priority revenge killing range, and boost its SpA on forced switches. Here it gets access to Clangorous Soul, but I haven't actually seen that yet. Specs is another set that works well, especially with Naganadel's new access to Spikes allowing it to abuse switchins it can't break, espcially given that Sylveon, the most reliable spinner in the meta, cannot safely switch into Naganadel's STAB. Both Band and Nasty Plot sets are absolutely incredible. Tyranitar can't reliably check either thanks to Superpower / U-Turn and Charti Berry sets respectively. Oblivion Wing gives Nasty Plot sets the sustainability to last throughout the match and outlast defensive answers without sacrificing moveslots. It does the same thing as , except slower and stronger, and no physical sets. Scarf sets are a thing for this moreso than its faster forme, but mostly it just smashes through fatmons harder. Volt Absorb and its increased power means that some of the few counters to Thundurus can't counter Therian, such as Tapu Koko, but others can abuse its slower nature and inability to go physical or mixed. Overall the worse forme but still very much broken. Nothing new or exciting here, just the same old Zygarde that sets up on pretty much the entire physical metagame and sweeps with one move. The loss of Hidden Power makes a lot of its old checks and counters a lot shakier. Buzzwole and Sylveon do a good job keeping this in check for now, but it's super hard to reliably deal with beyond those two mons. The Great
Tyranitar may not be a new addition to this metagame, but it sure feels like it. This is our new S rank, the best mon in the meta, the thing it's really hard to build without that makes almost every team better. It's flexible in its roles, checks numerous top threats, and is offensively threatening. At first glance it didn't gain a ton this DLC, pretty much only getting Diamond Storm back, but with the reintroduction of otherwise difficult to answer Pokemon such as Blacephalon, Thundurus, and Latios it has become the glue many teams need. Unlike pre-DLC Toxapex I don't feel it is broken or banworthy at this time, merely very very good. The Good
Blacephalon was banned last generation, but with V-Create restricted and its best counter Tyranitar everywhere Blacephalon has proven to merely be good. I have been liking Heavy Duty Boots on it, which allows a mixed offensive utility role. Shadow Sneak is very useful for revenge killing, and with its sky-high SpA it will always hit hard. Astral Barrage is a nuke and a half, although admittedly not THAT much of a buff over Moongeist Beam. Other sets are also nice, such as Specs, LO, or even Band (altho band with V-Create is meh). Fire / Ghost gives some great moves and Blacephalon has the stats to use them. If Tyranitar wasn't so common I suspect I would be calling for a ban but as it is I think it's not a terribly high priority. Not metashaking by any means but Buzzwole is a good physical wall capable of stopping terrifying threats like Urshifu and Zygarde. It can also use some decent offensive sets such as No Retreat, which loves Leech Life recovery, and Band. It's no Gen 7 Lando-T but it's still good. Stresh keeps saying he doesn't like defensive right now but I still find it effective if not nearly as good as last gen. Offensive has some issues with how common dual resists to its stabs are (both Thunduri (Thunduruses? Thundurusususususes?), Rotom-Mostofthem, Zapdos, Aerodactyl, etc.) and while this is no death knell for it it does make it easier to wall or pressure depending on the mon. Thundurus especially is nasty because if you Intimidate a Defiant set you're in trouble. However I doubt Lando-T will ever be less than good in STABmons, and it finds its way onto plenty of teams. Latios is broken. Except Tyranitar exists. Both Specs and CSoul sets are difficult to check and are rather different to play against. Except Tyranitar messes up both pretty well. Aura Sphere is nasty for Tyranitar, but I've been running Chople on Tar largely for precisely that, which gives you a good bit more leeway in playing against Latios, as Csoul is only one-time and Specs is by far the most dangerous early on when Dragon Energy is at full or near full power. It's also worth noting that both of Latios' STABs have common immunities, making Specs sets vulnerable to being Protect'd -> switch to immunity. I thought Tapu Lele would be broken going into this meta, but it hasn't shaken out that way. Lele hits hard with Expanding Force, but there are a number of ways to shut that down. The other Tapus are capable of resetting terrain on it making it notably less threatening, and the most dangerous sets are all choiced, which is abusable. It's also slow for this metagame, and easily offensively pressured. It hits hard, and with good prediction does a ton of damage. But it's nowhere near as absurd as I feared it would be. It may need a ban later on, but not a high priority to me. The Not-So-Good
Aerodactyl is still a nuke. It's still really really hard to switch into. But that's not particularly special in this metagame, and it's so weak to rocks and frail that it doesn't really stand out. Its Speed tier is nice but not unmatchable. Regieleki is somewhat common and easily outpaces, while Koko and Spectrier match it. It won't be bad if you use it with the right support, and I feel that as bans start to happen and it has less competition it will get better, but right now it's not a top tier threat. While Urshifu-Single-Strike was arguably broken pre-DLC, the metagame has become so Fairy-infested Urshifu just doesn't get chances to shine anymore. Buzzwole being introduced is also a major issue for it because Buzzwole is the single best wall for standard Urshifu sets. It COULD run Aerial Ace for Buzzwole... but then you're not running coverage for Fairies, or not running U-Turn. And you're running Aerial Ace. The Outright Bad
In The Hills smells
Spectrier is so close to being broken. But it has like three non-STAB types in Special coverage, and they're all shit. Mud Shot, Dark Pulse, and some Normal moves. I have legitimately been considering running a Double Kick set and if that doesn't tell you how bad its movepool is idk what will. Ghost is not a good type for mono-attacking, and while there are so many types it pairs well with, Spectrier just didn't get what it needed. I understand it's good in other metas like Camo and OU but the meta hasn't worked for it here.
I know I tend to have...unique takes to say the least. However, I'll try my best to explain how I'm seeing the meta shape up from messing around on the ladder.
The Ghosts:
I want to use Spectrier, but its lacking movepool is a big deterrent for me. Yeah it has a great speed tier and sp.attack stat, but it has really strong checks in tyranitar, chansey / blissey, Moltres-galar, Obstagoon, etc. I don't think life orb is the best item for the horse, but i'll use it for the calcs to show what can stop it. You need to have a +2 life orb mud shot to 2hko banded ttar with 252 ev hp investment...and adamant banded accelerock 2hkos the horse. Sp.def ttar is 3hko'd by a +2 life orb mud shot and a knock off with 0 investment ohkos the horse. A +4 mud shot with no life orb only has a 9% chance to 2HKO 252 / 252 ttar after Leftovers recovery so sp.def ttar is the way to go imo. The only reason why I used Spectrier was to outspeed the other ghosts in the meta. I gave it a kasib berry to take sneaks better. Moltres-galar is imo the best check for it. I think a sp.def moltres-g is the better set to use. A +1 0 investment fiery wrath is a ohko against the horse (i calc'd for no investment horse). Oblivion wing is the better move to click because a +1 and then a +2 owing (0 investment) will ko the horse (i calc'd for no investment horse) and also keeps you pretty healthy. Spectrier with a taunt nasty plot set can beat chansey / blissey unless they run shadow ball or something...but even I think that's kinda bad. Choice scarf modest could be a good late game sweeper once the checks are gone. I didn't copy any of the calcs so have fun doing them if you want to double check my work. Also, please stop using shadow sneak on the ladder...you know who you are.
Gengar is probably the best ghost mon in the meta because of the variety of sets it can run. Nasty plot, disable baneful bunker, sub, and specs are all great sets. Astral barrage is the better ghost move to run, but moongeist will come in handy for like 3 mons (mimikyu, and sturdy mons like skarm and steelix i guess). The biggest thing holding gengar back is its speed tier. 110 is great, but there are several mons faster than it that can one shot it. Having focus blast makes it so much more appealing to use than Spectrier and Blace.
Speaking of blace... Blacephalon is very similar to Spectrier in that they both will boost their sp.attack with ko's (unless you are using physical or timid 20 sp.attack ev) and have shallow type coverage. Blace does have slightly better options with trick, knock off, fire coverage, and a usable attack stat for sneak. If gengar's 110 base speed is lacking in this offensive meta, then blace's 107 definitely is. Being slower than keldeo and terrakion does not make me want to use blace and scarf sets can get walled so easily. Blace has poor defenses and is weak to multiple priority moves (sneak, sucker, aqua jet, water shuriken, accelerock) and will most likely be taken out from this alone.
I consider Marowak-alola to be the 2nd best ghost type. Lighting rod is great to check Regieleki and Tapu koko. Shadow sneak can ohko gengar, blace, and has about a 56% to ohko no investment Spectrier. Thing just hits hard.
Aegi honestly does the same stuff as it did previously. Mixed spell tag, Specs, SD 3 attacks are good sets, but 60 base speed isn't cutting it for me.
I hate Mimikyu but i understand why it is used. Disguise eating a hit is so good, especially when it is from a mon that has stat boosts that you can steal with spectral thief. If I'm being honest, I'd rather use ditto
as I can just copy my opponent and not have to telegraph what attack I'm going to use like when I send out mimi. Plus, I believe that ditto handles the ghosts with moongeist and sunsteel strike users (Excadrill, aegislash, sometimes Celesteela, bisharp) better than mimi does.
Ghosts tldr: I don't want to have chansey or ttar on every team or be forced to sack a mon and then bring out a faster mon that can ko the ghost. In favor of gengar ban and will get sick and tired of blace in a few weeks and will want it gone as well even though it probably isn't ban worthy.
Random thoughts on the meta:
Naganadel hits way too hard. Timid specs dragon energy does 34-40% to sp.defensive heatran and has a 98.6% chance to 3HKO chansey. Nasty plot sets are also great cause you get to switch up from dragon stab to poison stab to fire blast for the steel types. And don't get me started on it having u-turn and spikes now. ban it
and
are doing the same exact things as they did last gen... and it's still good. ban thundurus and suspect thundurus-t down the line.
is also doing the same stuff it did last gen. With sub, coil, shore up, t-arrows arguably being its best set. It isn't impossible to stop this thing, but it's still good and will probably end up being like A+rank.
Sure aero is stoppable...until your opponent hits every headsmash and crits your check to it. Aero being choice locked is the only thing keeping me from arguing for a ban at the moment.
Glacial Lance should be the next move banned. 130 bp move with no drawbacks is really good. DD kyurem, banded weavile, and adamant LO mamo scare me, but lance-less versions scare me less. My 252/252+ ferro being 2hko'd upsets me greatly.
I have been having a lot of success with magearna. I was originally running an iron defense and calm mind set with draining kiss and stored power, but I hated being slower than most mons. So I am now using a shift gear calm mind set with grassy seed (electric seed works too) for the defense boost.
Dnite has potential thanks to heavy-duty-boots keeping multiscale alive. I really want to run espeed on this, but i know dragon ascent, dragon darts, and eq is better though.
Zolt is the next mon I want to experiment with. This thing now has sand rush so bolt beak will hit everything for double damage except speed invested regieleki, priority users, and scarf users with at least 102 base speed with a plus speed nature (this is for adamant zolt) Jolly zolt in sand is only slower than either a plus speed nature regieleki or a scarf mon with at least 117 base speed with a plus speed nature. I'm thinking of using adamant banded.
I ran out of steam just talking about the stupid horse but hopefully my thoughts came across.
EDIT: I don't think I addressed it, but I don't think astral barrage is the problem. I think the move is fine outside of gengar and blace.
The Ghosts:
Ghosts tldr: I don't want to have chansey or ttar on every team or be forced to sack a mon and then bring out a faster mon that can ko the ghost. In favor of gengar ban and will get sick and tired of blace in a few weeks and will want it gone as well even though it probably isn't ban worthy.
Random thoughts on the meta:
I ran out of steam just talking about the stupid horse but hopefully my thoughts came across.
EDIT: I don't think I addressed it, but I don't think astral barrage is the problem. I think the move is fine outside of gengar and blace.
Thundurus-Incarnate, Zygarde, and Arena Trap have been quickbanned from STABmons
Votes
| Votee | Final Result | drampa's grandpa | In The Hills | xavgb |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Thundurus-I | BAN | Ban | Ban | Ban |
| Zygarde | BAN | Ban | Ban | No Ban |
 Arena Trap | BAN | Abstain | Ban | Ban |
Thundurus-I was banned for the incredible offensive potential of both physical Defiant sets and special Nasty Plot sets. Because of its versatility and power Thundurus was deemed too difficult to reliably check. Zygarde was banned because of its wide array of options allowed by its movepool and statline, most notably the one-move coverage brought about by Thousand Arrows, which allows it to pick its checks and counters and set up on a large portion of the metagame. Arena Trap was banned because of the uncompetitive strain it put on both building and playing, forcing anything trapped by it into either suboptimal sets or convoluted plays. ONLY Zygarde-50 is banned as a result of this tiering decision. Zygarde-10 is still legal.
ONLY Thundurus-Incarnate is banned as a result of this tiering decision. Thundurus-Therian is still legal.
Pokemon with access to Arena Trap are still legal, they simply must use a different ability, as with any other ability ban.
Kris The Immortal
Well it’s a good thing that bolt beak has been banned, otherwise: Zapdos would be absolutely bonkers. Imagine if there were stabmons Uber edition (without any bans): Zekrom with bolt beak, Dusk mane Necrozma with double iron bash (assuming the format allows it to use steel type attacks), Ho-oh with V-create, Zamazenta with Body Press and King’s shield, Kartana with Double Iron Bash, Lunala with Astral Barrage, Black Kyurem with Glacial Lance, Groupon with Thousand arrows; omg, Stabmon Uber or especially stabmons AG edition would be absurd.
STABmons Ubers
Pokemon can learn any move that matches their type, in an Ubers environment. All pokemon that are banned in STABmons are unbanned here.
Clauses: Ubers Clauses
Banlist:
Pokemon:
Items:
Moves: Acupressure, Belly Drum, Chatter, Geomancy, Shell Smash, Shift Gear, Spore, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed
See the Mashup Megathread for more info.
The first viability rankings update in.... a long time is here!
The council elected not to include subranks at this point due to the fact that the metagame is still in its infancy and we likely have more bans to come before the metagame is settled. As such you can expect more updates in the not-too-distant future.
The ranks are internally organized alphabetically, not based on how good the Pokemon are. I make no claim that Aegislash is better than Zeraora, only that A comes before Z.
Shoutout to In The Hills and xavgb for putting in so much work on this, and Chazm for giving us feedback and pointing out some mons we were missing.
And without further ado:
S
These Pokemon are the best Pokemon in the tier, which they define. They have few flaws, which are more than made up for by their strengths. Most teams will have at least one on their team, and it is mandatory to take them into account when teambuilding.
Heatran
Sylveon
Tyranitar
A
These Pokemon are extremely effective in the tier. They are considered top tier, and their strengths largely overshadow their flaws. Considering these Pokemon when building is important.
Blacephalon
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Gengar
Landorus-Therian
Latios
Magearna
Mamoswine
Naganadel
Rotom-Heat
Slowbro
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Thundurus-Therian
Tornadus-Therian
Toxapex
Urshifu-Single-Strike
B
These Pokemon are largely effective at what they do, but have flaws or poor matchups that prevent them from being top tier. Considering these Pokemon when building is beneficial, but many will often naturally be checked.
Aegislash
Aerodactyl
Amoonguss
Blaziken
Blissey
Buzzwole
Celesteela
Corviknight
Chansey
Cinderace
Excadrill
Gyarados
Hippowdon
Keldeo
Mandibuzz
Marowak-Alola
Mimikyu
Obstagoon
Pelipper
Rotom-Wash
Slowking
Tapu Fini
Terrakion
Victini
Zapdos
Zapdos-Galar
Zeraora
C
These Pokemon have a niche in the tier. They will not fit on most teams, but can prove effective when given the right support. They may be mostly outclassed or the utility they provide may be unnecessary on most teams. These Pokemon are generally uncommon and niche, and do not need to be given special consideration during teambuilding.
Azumarill
Barbaracle
Clefable
Dragonite
Grimmsnarl
Hydreigon
Kommo-o
Latias
Ninjask
Regieleki
Rillaboom
Seismitoad
Shedinja
Spectrier
Swampert
Tangrowth
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
The council elected not to include subranks at this point due to the fact that the metagame is still in its infancy and we likely have more bans to come before the metagame is settled. As such you can expect more updates in the not-too-distant future.
The ranks are internally organized alphabetically, not based on how good the Pokemon are. I make no claim that Aegislash is better than Zeraora, only that A comes before Z.
Shoutout to In The Hills and xavgb for putting in so much work on this, and Chazm for giving us feedback and pointing out some mons we were missing.
And without further ado:
S
These Pokemon are the best Pokemon in the tier, which they define. They have few flaws, which are more than made up for by their strengths. Most teams will have at least one on their team, and it is mandatory to take them into account when teambuilding.
Heatran Sylveon TyranitarA
These Pokemon are extremely effective in the tier. They are considered top tier, and their strengths largely overshadow their flaws. Considering these Pokemon when building is important.
Blacephalon Ferrothorn Garchomp Gengar Landorus-Therian Latios Magearna Mamoswine Naganadel Rotom-Heat Slowbro Tapu Bulu Tapu Koko Tapu Lele Thundurus-Therian Tornadus-TherianToxapex Urshifu-Single-StrikeB
These Pokemon are largely effective at what they do, but have flaws or poor matchups that prevent them from being top tier. Considering these Pokemon when building is beneficial, but many will often naturally be checked.
Aegislash Aerodactyl Amoonguss Blaziken Blissey Buzzwole Celesteela Corviknight Chansey Cinderace Excadrill Gyarados Hippowdon Keldeo Mandibuzz Marowak-Alola Mimikyu Obstagoon Pelipper Rotom-Wash Slowking Tapu Fini Terrakion Victini Zapdos Zapdos-Galar ZeraoraC
These Pokemon have a niche in the tier. They will not fit on most teams, but can prove effective when given the right support. They may be mostly outclassed or the utility they provide may be unnecessary on most teams. These Pokemon are generally uncommon and niche, and do not need to be given special consideration during teambuilding.
Azumarill Barbaracle Clefable Dragonite Grimmsnarl Hydreigon Kommo-o Latias Ninjask Regieleki Rillaboom Seismitoad Shedinja Spectrier Swampert Tangrowth Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Man up and ban pex already. Flip turn pex has been ruining the meta game for months. I know that smogon tier leaders have some unhealthy obsession with defending pex, but it has really been a big contributor in making this meta a lot less interesting and fun. Just cuz a mon is fat doesn't mean that it cannot be broken and banworthy for being over centralizing.
Naganadel has been banned and Astral Barrage has been restricted in STABmons
Votes
| Votee | Final Result | drampa's grandpa | In The Hills | MultiAmmiratore | vivalospride | xavgb |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Naganadel | BAN | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | Abstain |
Ghost-Type Tiering
| Tiering Action | Tiering Action | Tiering Action | Tiering Action | Abstain | Tiering Action |
Gengar, Blacephalon, Both, or Astral Barrage | Astral Barrage | Astral Barrage | Blacephalon and Gengar | Blacephalon and Gengar | Astral Barrage | Astral Barrage |
Naganadel has several sets, all of which are offensively potent. It works much as it has in Overused; powerful, fast, with excellent dual STAB and all the coverage it needs in Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Dragon Energy makes Choice Specs nigh unwallable, while boosting sets with Nasty Plot or Clangorous Soul are excessively difficult to revenge kill thanks to Beast Boost buffs. While Heatran has been held up as a reason not to ban, Heatran is 3HKO'd by Specs Dragon Energy, and has no reasonable way to recover off the damage other than Leftovers.
This was a preliminary vote as to whether ANY ban should occur to solve our Ghost-type problem. I will discuss this more in the next section.
We have been discussing the best way to resolve our Ghost-type issue for a little while now. Both Blacephalon and Gengar hit too hard, too fast, with excellent dual STABs, and the high base power of Astral Barrage compounded their naturally high Special Attack stats to limit walls primarily to Tyranitar and Chansey / Blissey, although both Ghosts had options to at least cripple each.
The options we voted on can probably best be expressed through this poll
I encourage council members to say why they voted one way or another on this issue.
What's next...
With OMWC (or WCoOM idgaf) right around the corner we will be watching the tour closely to see what stands out as dominant and / or broken. We will especially be watching Gengar and Blacephalon, to see if they are indeed balanced by the loss of Astral Barrage. I personally have my eye on Latios as well, as it is already quite potent and the loss / nerf of several Pokemon that were both offensively threatening and had similar checks could well give it a significant boost.
tagging Kris and The Immortal
Yesterday I was doing some testing and discovered something interesting that might be cool here.
You should be aware of No Retreat trapping the user and preventing its use a second time, but did you know there actually is a way to use No Retreat consecutively? If you've already been afflicted with the trapped status (such as from Mean Look or Block), No Retreat will still give you boosts, but the self-trapping part will fail, and so will the flag that prevents repeated use of the move!
Unfortunately, self-trapping is hard. I tried it with Ingrain, and it sadly does not work (I don't know if that's the case on Cart, but it doesn't work on Showdown at least), which is a shame since having free recovery + an omniboost sounds pretty devastating.
But then I remembered another signature move introduced in Gen 8 that's really flew under the radar: Jaw Lock. This move traps both the target and the user, which is an interesting effect. In our case, however, that self-trapping effect is exactly what we want, as it is the same as that from Mean Look, and thus means we can use No Retreat with impunity. Cool, right?
The only Pokemon which can abuse this combo are the three Dark/Fighting Pokemon we have. Urshifu is practically just Pangoro 2 so that's really all I'm going to explore
Urshifu @ Leftovers
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Jaw Lock
- No Retreat
- Substitute
- Rest
Gameplan is simple: Jaw Lock on something which can't seriously threaten you, whether immediately or after getting +1 in defenses. Unless they have a pivot move or are Ghost, they won't be able to switch out (hopefully there's no Shed Shell). You can proceed to No Retreat, using Sub to protect yourself from from the likes of Crits, Status, Seismic Toss, or whatever. Rest is there if you do get statused: once you've boosted yourself up, you'll be hard to take down, and if the opponent is trapped there might not be anything for them to do to take advantage of the Sleep turns. Helps in stalling out the opponent as well, if needed. At +6 you're plenty strong and Jaw Lock should be enough to muscle through teams.
On its own this does have weakness, but because we're talking about Wicked Blow the Pokemon over here, this looks to be a formidable lure to take advantage of people expecting more standard sets, or a horrifying wincon. The last two moveslots are also pretty customizable: if you're afraid of getting beat by Haze users, for example, you might consider Taunt, or perhaps U-Turn to ensure you can leave the Jaw Lock if things turn south.
The only reason Scrafty is worth mentioning is because Shed Skin is useful for preventing Status without necessarily needing Rest, though its poor Speed and Attack, as well as not exactly being bulkier than Urshifu, is a bit of a letdown.
You should be aware of No Retreat trapping the user and preventing its use a second time, but did you know there actually is a way to use No Retreat consecutively? If you've already been afflicted with the trapped status (such as from Mean Look or Block), No Retreat will still give you boosts, but the self-trapping part will fail, and so will the flag that prevents repeated use of the move!
Unfortunately, self-trapping is hard. I tried it with Ingrain, and it sadly does not work (I don't know if that's the case on Cart, but it doesn't work on Showdown at least), which is a shame since having free recovery + an omniboost sounds pretty devastating.
But then I remembered another signature move introduced in Gen 8 that's really flew under the radar: Jaw Lock. This move traps both the target and the user, which is an interesting effect. In our case, however, that self-trapping effect is exactly what we want, as it is the same as that from Mean Look, and thus means we can use No Retreat with impunity. Cool, right?
The only Pokemon which can abuse this combo are the three Dark/Fighting Pokemon we have. Urshifu is practically just Pangoro 2 so that's really all I'm going to explore
Urshifu @ Leftovers
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Jaw Lock
- No Retreat
- Substitute
- Rest
Gameplan is simple: Jaw Lock on something which can't seriously threaten you, whether immediately or after getting +1 in defenses. Unless they have a pivot move or are Ghost, they won't be able to switch out (hopefully there's no Shed Shell). You can proceed to No Retreat, using Sub to protect yourself from from the likes of Crits, Status, Seismic Toss, or whatever. Rest is there if you do get statused: once you've boosted yourself up, you'll be hard to take down, and if the opponent is trapped there might not be anything for them to do to take advantage of the Sleep turns. Helps in stalling out the opponent as well, if needed. At +6 you're plenty strong and Jaw Lock should be enough to muscle through teams.
On its own this does have weakness, but because we're talking about Wicked Blow the Pokemon over here, this looks to be a formidable lure to take advantage of people expecting more standard sets, or a horrifying wincon. The last two moveslots are also pretty customizable: if you're afraid of getting beat by Haze users, for example, you might consider Taunt, or perhaps U-Turn to ensure you can leave the Jaw Lock if things turn south.
The only reason Scrafty is worth mentioning is because Shed Skin is useful for preventing Status without necessarily needing Rest, though its poor Speed and Attack, as well as not exactly being bulkier than Urshifu, is a bit of a letdown.
I'm just gonna give a shoutout to a mon that surprisingly hasnt been mentioned in this thread, nor is it on the VR, being porygon 2
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Glare/Rapid Spin/Court Change
- Recover
- Teleport
This set allows p2 to function as a solid defensive pivot, works great alongside toxapex, that can also act as hazard removal, if you dont need hazard removal or already have a different hazard remover you can use glare, an upgrade to thunder wave, and the real star of this set is boomburst, which hits decently hard even when you are uninvested in special attack
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Glare/Rapid Spin/Court Change
- Recover
- Teleport
This set allows p2 to function as a solid defensive pivot, works great alongside toxapex, that can also act as hazard removal, if you dont need hazard removal or already have a different hazard remover you can use glare, an upgrade to thunder wave, and the real star of this set is boomburst, which hits decently hard even when you are uninvested in special attack
So I've been really enjoying this metagame and it's sad that there's not many players because it's a really fun and interesting meta.
I guess I'll post some thoughts to hopefully spark more discussion since this thread is pretty inactive.
I really like Aero Blast on Tornadus-T since you no longer have to worry much about a miss. You don't need rain to cosistently hit Hurricanes. The lower damage is not very noticeable specially when it gets Nasty Plot and you can run Life Orb too. I love running it on sand teams and Weather Ball is nice to hit things like Zapdos.
Tyranitar is amazing. Being able to perform multiple roles effectively. The Smooth Rock defensive set is amazing support and is not passive either because of the amazing Parting Shot. Diamond Storm and Knock Off and hilariously powerful and spammable moves. I've even had success with Dragon Dance with Webs and Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch also helps out a lot with faster threats like Latios.
Dragon Ascent is something I've seen being spammed a lot and for good reasoning. Nothing is immune to it and it's very powerful. It's a way better Brave Bird despite the defense drops. Salamance is a nuke with this and can easily snowball with Moxie. Other great users of this move include Landorus T, Dragonite and Galar Zapdos.
Dracozolt is something that definitely should be ranked. It doesn't gain much but Dragon Darts makes it so you don't have to rely on Outrage to hit Grounds hard and you are not as reliant on Draco Meteor and sacrificing Attack EVs.
I guess I'll post some thoughts to hopefully spark more discussion since this thread is pretty inactive.
I really like Aero Blast on Tornadus-T since you no longer have to worry much about a miss. You don't need rain to cosistently hit Hurricanes. The lower damage is not very noticeable specially when it gets Nasty Plot and you can run Life Orb too. I love running it on sand teams and Weather Ball is nice to hit things like Zapdos.
Tyranitar is amazing. Being able to perform multiple roles effectively. The Smooth Rock defensive set is amazing support and is not passive either because of the amazing Parting Shot. Diamond Storm and Knock Off and hilariously powerful and spammable moves. I've even had success with Dragon Dance with Webs and Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch also helps out a lot with faster threats like Latios.
Dragon Ascent is something I've seen being spammed a lot and for good reasoning. Nothing is immune to it and it's very powerful. It's a way better Brave Bird despite the defense drops. Salamance is a nuke with this and can easily snowball with Moxie. Other great users of this move include Landorus T, Dragonite and Galar Zapdos.
Dracozolt is something that definitely should be ranked. It doesn't gain much but Dragon Darts makes it so you don't have to rely on Outrage to hit Grounds hard and you are not as reliant on Draco Meteor and sacrificing Attack EVs.
Mamoswine has been quickbanned from STABmons
source: bulbapedia
By a 4-0 vote (with one vote outstanding) the council has banned Mamoswine from STABmons!
As per Ransei this WILL effect the coming week of Other Metas World Cup
source: bulbapedia
By a 4-0 vote (with one vote outstanding) the council has banned Mamoswine from STABmons!
As per Ransei this WILL effect the coming week of Other Metas World Cup
| User | Vote |
|---|---|
| drampa's grandpa | Ban |
| In The Hills | Ban |
| MultiAmmiratore | n/a (outstanding) |
| Vivalospride | Ban |
| xavgb | Ban |
Mamoswine's extreme power with its excellent dual STABs left its viable counters near non-existent. Notably the new move Glacial Lance and the return of Precipice Blades made its STABs not only superb coverage but extremely high-powered as well. Even the best physical tanks in the metagame could not eat Mamoswine's hits.
This is not to say counters are non-existent, but they tend to be uncommon, prone to chip, or otherwise unviable. Rotom-Wash is notable for being the best counter to Mamoswine, but dies to Life Orb Freeze Dry. Avalugg is also a counter, although it struggles to keep up with Stone Edge after a little chip or a crit (from a high crit rate move).
Mamoswine @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Oblivious / Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Glacial Lance
- Ice Shard
- Stone Edge / Stealth Rock / Spikes / Knock Off / Freeze Dry
Ability: Oblivious / Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Glacial Lance
- Ice Shard
- Stone Edge / Stealth Rock / Spikes / Knock Off / Freeze Dry
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 173-204 (51.7 - 61%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Overall: Mamoswine's ability to pressure teams both at the teambuilding stage and in game was deemed excessive and limiting, leading to the council voting for a ban.
A question we've been getting: "Why not ban Glacial Lance?"
Glacial Lance is available on a number of other Ice types, none of which are even close to being broken, besides a couple which are broken either way (Darmanitan-G, Kyurem-B, Calyrex-Ice which would have it either way). Clearly therefore, Mamoswine's properties are a defining part of what makes an issue here, rather than being a broken move slappable on anything vaguely the right shape. This is why we decided to ban Mamoswine, even though it was not an issue before gaining Glacial Lance. Kyurem, Weavile, and other Ice-types can continue to use Glacial Lance, and will likely never prove to be an issue.
I would like to apologize for the timing and lack of transparency on this particular ban vote; we decided it was better to get it out before the next week of OMWC, rather than wait a couple days for community feedback when a large portion of the council had already made up its mind. We hope next time to be able to draw more from community feedback and provide more of a heads up.
As always I invite the council and anyone else to share their thoughts on both Mamoswine and the post Mamoswine metagame.
Kris The Immortal
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STABmons is not in the best spot at the moment. Power creep brought by the Crown Tundra has not been kind to the metagame as it currently suffers from extremely constrained teambuilding, repetitive defensive cores and questionably strong mons that make you think why they were even allowed in the first place. So, I have compiled a list of "brokens" tiers for the metagame, in my opinion.
Tier 1: Absolutely insane Pokemon I think should either be banned or suspected immediately.
Tapu Koko has been an incredible Pokemon for me to use so far. It's extremely powerful with both Choice Specs and Choice Band being viable on it, and even some more fringe sets like Shuca Berry, which allow it to pivot against Excadrill, its best counter, without much of a worry of prediction. Not only does it have very little in the way of reliable counterplay as most Ground types are 2HKOd at the very least by Specs Fleur Cannon, unlike the other member of this list, it's insanely fast and has very little in the way of offensive counterplay - infact, in the current metagame, only Barraskewda outspeeds it naturally. For that it has felt like an incredibly restrictive Pokemon that requires insane amounts of prediction to beat without the opponent getting a heavy advantage from it.
I don't actually know what reliable defensive counterplay this has - every time I've tried to deal with it I've just had to say slap a SpDef Sylveon on the team. Yet like with Thundurus-Incarnate, it always has a good way around it. Physical sets might not be that good but they tend to do a number on checking things like that, bulky Taunt sets absolutely rip through blobs, and can be EVd to deal with a 0 SpA Sylveon Boomburst too. It has a number of things that can revenge kill it but it simply does not have a single reliable defensive counter at all, which in a metagame that is already quite centralized is not something that's exactly healthy. It's not like it doesn't have counterplay for those revenge killers either - for example, most Accelerock users are beaten out by Charti Berry sets, and other priority revenge killing methods cannot take down Thundurus-T from full. This mon is extremely restrictive to the point where a lot of defensive cores just outright ignore it from my experience - because there is no reliable method of dealing with it aside from out-offensing it. Viable tactic but for something with enough counterplay to faster threats, it's not something I think is healthy at all.
Tier 2: Pokemon that feel very unhealthy to play with but are dealable with in most scenarios.
These two I would lump together under the "broken Ghost-type" banner. Spectrier is also a part of this but considering the current state of the metagame I think it's pretty disadvantaged compared to these two and is almost entirely banking on the opponent not bringing Tyranitar to the game. Both of these have the issue of having restricting counters, but both operate in different ways that make them both broken, but not evidently so.
Blacephalon: Aside from Tyranitar, Blacephalon doesn't really have counterplay. The best checks it has outside of Tyranitar are usually situational and tend to lose to Band & Specs variants. However, this isn't what I would consider to be the biggest broken in Blacephalon's arsenal - the biggest issue I have with Blacephalon is its mixed speed boosting set (shown below). Mixed Blace is not only difficult to wall by blobs or most conventional blanket means, it is also extremely difficult to stop when it often times requires priority or very fast Choice Scarfers (which it can knock off if they hard in). Whilst checks like Heatran & Tyranitar do exist, it is kinda frustrating to have to use them on so many teams at the moment, and thus I view it as being one of the central forces in the metagame.
Gengar: This is less of a "massively versatile" situation that Blacephalon can pull off but closer to the Thundurus-T situation of "this has very little in the way of counterplay". Nasty Plot with Life Orb has a few checks but most of them will need either super effective priority to properly answer Gengar as it is capable of 2HKOing nearly the entire metagame. A few developments in the metagame have resulted in the usage of some blankets like Assault Vest Toxapex as a way of nearly guaranteeing dealing with it, but Gengar does have a few tricks up its sleeve to cripple even these checks, such as Trick + Specs. It makes it extremely infuriating to deal with especially in such a fast paced metagame, but compared to Thundurus-T it is considerably more vulnerable to priority & being worn down over the course of the game, so I do not view it as broken as it.
Tapu Lele is also another Gengar situation - it has very little in the way of actual counterplay, but unlike Gengar it is a little more expansive in checks - mostly the Steel/Flying gang, but they all get shut down by Thunder, and other Steels are either not reliable enough to tank multiple Expanding Forces or are taken out by Focus Blast. The ability to block priority for other teammates too is very frustrating at times as well, which can make Scarf an extremely difficult to revenge cleaner.
I would also consider Urshifu to be an extremely annoying threat to deal with. Like the above, it doesn't have a lot in terms of pure counters, but the amount of things it can do to them is also quite wide. No Retreat + Life Orb is an irritatingly strong cleaner in the lategame, and is still extremely threatening early on, as it can bluff Bulk Up sets and use its raw power to wear down the team short-term, therefore opening a path for it alone, especially when paired with the very common Doom Desire / Future Sight support that is used around STABmons at the moment. You could actually argue for a ban of Doom Desire, and I might get into that later, but for now I adamantly believe Urshifu is the issue over delayed moves.
Tier 3: Pokemon that may warrant looking into in the future, but are not issues now.
Aerodactyl has done most of the same things it did last gen - both its Brave Bird and Head Smash are very difficult moves to properly switch into from Choice Band - although right now, there are a lot of decent pivots that punish it quite heavily for clicking the wrong move, such as Helmet Garchomp & Ferrothorn. I would not adamantly consider this broken but I believe it might become an issue once the rest of these Pokemon get looked at.
Choice Band Landorus-Therian worries me. Unlike the aforementioned Aerodactyl, its Flying STAB is even stronger than its, and can considerably damage even the bulkiest of resists trying to pivot into it. For example, max HP Tyranitar has an extremely narrow margin of error when it comes to dealing with its Flying STAB - even the slightest of chip damage will put it into a 2HKO position. Aside from decent pivots, there are only 2 decent checks in the entire game to it - Corviknight and Celesteela, both of which will take at least 30% from Dragon Ascent, and can both be Knocked Off (or Spiked on in the case of Celesteela) to provide even more chip damage against the opponent. This mon has a very Mamoswiny feel to it: whilst not as hard to wall, it is extremely difficult to consistently pivot around and has multiple good punishes - Sky Plate + SD does this to a major extent too; as Celesteela and Corviknight will be taking at least half from Dragon Ascent and Slowbro has a range in Landorus-T's favour to be 2HKOd. The major difference here is that Rotoms will pivot around it much easier, but regardless it is an extremely strong threat towards bulkier teams, and I question whether something of its strength should be legal or not.
Specs Keldeo is already extremely powerful, with only a handful of good checks like Assault Vest Slowking and Specially Defensive Toxapex, but this all falls apart when taking Scarf + Final Gambit Keldeo into the equation. Final Gambit Keldeo consistently removes Toxapex from the field, making a lot of the aforementioned threats above considerably harder to deal with - it hurts especially when Keldeo is already as powerful as it is even with a Choice Scarf, as any misplay could easily lead to Keldeo claiming a kill without even trading. For that, I consider it to be potentially unhealthy in the metagame, though it has shown no signs of being absolutely menacing compared to the rest of the Pokemon on this list.
Addennum: Pokemon that are not broken (yet) but deserve more attention
Diggersby is actually a fantastic boon for Hyper Offense, and is what I would consider to be the single best lead in the entire game. Knock Off, Spikes, Fake Out, Explosion are all amazing moves that it has in its arsenal that can severely chip the opponent when trying to prevent it from laying hazards - Explosion will be more than likely to take a Pokemon that doesn't outright resist it, especially given how powerful Diggersby is with Huge Power. Swords Dance itself is also a pretty strong wallbreaker, although with the amount of Landorus-Therian in the metagame I do not believe it is that amazing without Ice Memory sadly. Excellent, overlooked lead, should probably be C at least on the VR.
Despite being plagued by the existence of Tyranitar, Spectrier still has a lot going for it in this metagame. Hex + Taunt sets are still obscenely difficult to reliably deal with, because they can instantly cripple p much every check in the game, and unlike its competition in Gengar & Blacephalon, not only is it significantly faster, it is also considerably bulkier and capable of tanking the miscellaneous priority that both Blacephalon and Gengar hate to deal with. It is also capable of some SubDisable trickery with Moongeist Beam that can make it very difficult to actively hit whilst still pulling out some heavy damage. The other two ghosts may be more broken right now, but Spectrier is tailing right behind it IMO.
Tier 1: Absolutely insane Pokemon I think should either be banned or suspected immediately.
Tapu Koko has been an incredible Pokemon for me to use so far. It's extremely powerful with both Choice Specs and Choice Band being viable on it, and even some more fringe sets like Shuca Berry, which allow it to pivot against Excadrill, its best counter, without much of a worry of prediction. Not only does it have very little in the way of reliable counterplay as most Ground types are 2HKOd at the very least by Specs Fleur Cannon, unlike the other member of this list, it's insanely fast and has very little in the way of offensive counterplay - infact, in the current metagame, only Barraskewda outspeeds it naturally. For that it has felt like an incredibly restrictive Pokemon that requires insane amounts of prediction to beat without the opponent getting a heavy advantage from it.
I don't actually know what reliable defensive counterplay this has - every time I've tried to deal with it I've just had to say slap a SpDef Sylveon on the team. Yet like with Thundurus-Incarnate, it always has a good way around it. Physical sets might not be that good but they tend to do a number on checking things like that, bulky Taunt sets absolutely rip through blobs, and can be EVd to deal with a 0 SpA Sylveon Boomburst too. It has a number of things that can revenge kill it but it simply does not have a single reliable defensive counter at all, which in a metagame that is already quite centralized is not something that's exactly healthy. It's not like it doesn't have counterplay for those revenge killers either - for example, most Accelerock users are beaten out by Charti Berry sets, and other priority revenge killing methods cannot take down Thundurus-T from full. This mon is extremely restrictive to the point where a lot of defensive cores just outright ignore it from my experience - because there is no reliable method of dealing with it aside from out-offensing it. Viable tactic but for something with enough counterplay to faster threats, it's not something I think is healthy at all.
Tier 2: Pokemon that feel very unhealthy to play with but are dealable with in most scenarios.
These two I would lump together under the "broken Ghost-type" banner. Spectrier is also a part of this but considering the current state of the metagame I think it's pretty disadvantaged compared to these two and is almost entirely banking on the opponent not bringing Tyranitar to the game. Both of these have the issue of having restricting counters, but both operate in different ways that make them both broken, but not evidently so.
Blacephalon: Aside from Tyranitar, Blacephalon doesn't really have counterplay. The best checks it has outside of Tyranitar are usually situational and tend to lose to Band & Specs variants. However, this isn't what I would consider to be the biggest broken in Blacephalon's arsenal - the biggest issue I have with Blacephalon is its mixed speed boosting set (shown below). Mixed Blace is not only difficult to wall by blobs or most conventional blanket means, it is also extremely difficult to stop when it often times requires priority or very fast Choice Scarfers (which it can knock off if they hard in). Whilst checks like Heatran & Tyranitar do exist, it is kinda frustrating to have to use them on so many teams at the moment, and thus I view it as being one of the central forces in the metagame.
Blacephalon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 24 HP / 212 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Pyro Ball / Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Shadow Sneak / Knock Off / Poltergeist / Taunt
- Blue Flare / Taunt / Poltergeist
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 24 HP / 212 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Pyro Ball / Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Shadow Sneak / Knock Off / Poltergeist / Taunt
- Blue Flare / Taunt / Poltergeist
Gengar: This is less of a "massively versatile" situation that Blacephalon can pull off but closer to the Thundurus-T situation of "this has very little in the way of counterplay". Nasty Plot with Life Orb has a few checks but most of them will need either super effective priority to properly answer Gengar as it is capable of 2HKOing nearly the entire metagame. A few developments in the metagame have resulted in the usage of some blankets like Assault Vest Toxapex as a way of nearly guaranteeing dealing with it, but Gengar does have a few tricks up its sleeve to cripple even these checks, such as Trick + Specs. It makes it extremely infuriating to deal with especially in such a fast paced metagame, but compared to Thundurus-T it is considerably more vulnerable to priority & being worn down over the course of the game, so I do not view it as broken as it.
Tapu Lele is also another Gengar situation - it has very little in the way of actual counterplay, but unlike Gengar it is a little more expansive in checks - mostly the Steel/Flying gang, but they all get shut down by Thunder, and other Steels are either not reliable enough to tank multiple Expanding Forces or are taken out by Focus Blast. The ability to block priority for other teammates too is very frustrating at times as well, which can make Scarf an extremely difficult to revenge cleaner.
I would also consider Urshifu to be an extremely annoying threat to deal with. Like the above, it doesn't have a lot in terms of pure counters, but the amount of things it can do to them is also quite wide. No Retreat + Life Orb is an irritatingly strong cleaner in the lategame, and is still extremely threatening early on, as it can bluff Bulk Up sets and use its raw power to wear down the team short-term, therefore opening a path for it alone, especially when paired with the very common Doom Desire / Future Sight support that is used around STABmons at the moment. You could actually argue for a ban of Doom Desire, and I might get into that later, but for now I adamantly believe Urshifu is the issue over delayed moves.
Tier 3: Pokemon that may warrant looking into in the future, but are not issues now.
Aerodactyl has done most of the same things it did last gen - both its Brave Bird and Head Smash are very difficult moves to properly switch into from Choice Band - although right now, there are a lot of decent pivots that punish it quite heavily for clicking the wrong move, such as Helmet Garchomp & Ferrothorn. I would not adamantly consider this broken but I believe it might become an issue once the rest of these Pokemon get looked at.
Choice Band Landorus-Therian worries me. Unlike the aforementioned Aerodactyl, its Flying STAB is even stronger than its, and can considerably damage even the bulkiest of resists trying to pivot into it. For example, max HP Tyranitar has an extremely narrow margin of error when it comes to dealing with its Flying STAB - even the slightest of chip damage will put it into a 2HKO position. Aside from decent pivots, there are only 2 decent checks in the entire game to it - Corviknight and Celesteela, both of which will take at least 30% from Dragon Ascent, and can both be Knocked Off (or Spiked on in the case of Celesteela) to provide even more chip damage against the opponent. This mon has a very Mamoswiny feel to it: whilst not as hard to wall, it is extremely difficult to consistently pivot around and has multiple good punishes - Sky Plate + SD does this to a major extent too; as Celesteela and Corviknight will be taking at least half from Dragon Ascent and Slowbro has a range in Landorus-T's favour to be 2HKOd. The major difference here is that Rotoms will pivot around it much easier, but regardless it is an extremely strong threat towards bulkier teams, and I question whether something of its strength should be legal or not.
Specs Keldeo is already extremely powerful, with only a handful of good checks like Assault Vest Slowking and Specially Defensive Toxapex, but this all falls apart when taking Scarf + Final Gambit Keldeo into the equation. Final Gambit Keldeo consistently removes Toxapex from the field, making a lot of the aforementioned threats above considerably harder to deal with - it hurts especially when Keldeo is already as powerful as it is even with a Choice Scarf, as any misplay could easily lead to Keldeo claiming a kill without even trading. For that, I consider it to be potentially unhealthy in the metagame, though it has shown no signs of being absolutely menacing compared to the rest of the Pokemon on this list.
Addennum: Pokemon that are not broken (yet) but deserve more attention
Diggersby is actually a fantastic boon for Hyper Offense, and is what I would consider to be the single best lead in the entire game. Knock Off, Spikes, Fake Out, Explosion are all amazing moves that it has in its arsenal that can severely chip the opponent when trying to prevent it from laying hazards - Explosion will be more than likely to take a Pokemon that doesn't outright resist it, especially given how powerful Diggersby is with Huge Power. Swords Dance itself is also a pretty strong wallbreaker, although with the amount of Landorus-Therian in the metagame I do not believe it is that amazing without Ice Memory sadly. Excellent, overlooked lead, should probably be C at least on the VR.
Despite being plagued by the existence of Tyranitar, Spectrier still has a lot going for it in this metagame. Hex + Taunt sets are still obscenely difficult to reliably deal with, because they can instantly cripple p much every check in the game, and unlike its competition in Gengar & Blacephalon, not only is it significantly faster, it is also considerably bulkier and capable of tanking the miscellaneous priority that both Blacephalon and Gengar hate to deal with. It is also capable of some SubDisable trickery with Moongeist Beam that can make it very difficult to actively hit whilst still pulling out some heavy damage. The other two ghosts may be more broken right now, but Spectrier is tailing right behind it IMO.
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MultiAmmiratore has stepped down from the STABmons council due to being unable to be sufficiently active. Thanks Multi for all your contributions and we hope you are able to remain involved in the tier!
Former tier leader Betathunder has been (re-)added to the council! We know Betathunder will do a great job on the council and hope he can help calm the tempest DLC2 has brought to us.
Also check out the STABmons Old Gen hub, hosted by our own council member In The Hills! The banlists are kinda scanty right now so go find broken stuff and abuse it ;)
Former tier leader Betathunder has been (re-)added to the council! We know Betathunder will do a great job on the council and hope he can help calm the tempest DLC2 has brought to us.
Also check out the STABmons Old Gen hub, hosted by our own council member In The Hills! The banlists are kinda scanty right now so go find broken stuff and abuse it ;)
The council has been unable to come to a consensus on whether any individual elements of the metagame are banworthy. We overall seem to agree that the metagame is rather stale and unhealthy due to limited options without straying into the suboptimal, however identifying that issues exist, while an important step, doesn't give us everything we need to fix them. So in this post I will discuss the various Pokémon the council has been discussing, both to keep everyone informed and to request feedback.
We are open to suspecting or banning Pokemon during the STABmons Open if the consensus is that this is the best way forward, however we are not set on doing so. We will absolutely not rush a decision just to get it in before the Open is over.
We would love to see replays, discussion of checks and counters, and generally anything related to the following Pokémon. Of course if you have other threats in mind feel free to bring them up here as well.
Pokemon are discussed in descending order of concern, with the threats the council deemed highest priority appearing first.
Urshifu-Single-StrikeSets: All-Out-Attacker | Band | No Retreat | Scarf
Bear hit hard. Because of Urshifu's excellent power and coverage it has next to no reliable switch-ins in the metagame. Between Sucker Punch, No Retreat, and Choice Scarf sets methods of offensively checking it are extremely limited, essentially being restricted to Pokémon such as Scarf Tapu Koko that outspeed, tank Sucker Punch, and can hit Urshifu hard enough to KO, even with potentially boosted defenses.
One of the main counterpoints to Urshifu being banned is that we simply have not seen enough of it in the recent metagame. Specifically in World Cup there were very few Urshifu that put in significant work. We of course do not ban Pokémon purely based on theorymon except in exceptional cases, so it is fair to say that more evidence is needed here.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 229-270 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 229-270 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gengar and SpectrierGengar sets: Sub Nasty Plot | 3 Attacks Nasty Plot | Specs | Scarf
Spectrier sets: Substitute | Specs
Ghost types have been warping the metagame around them since the beginning of the generation when Pursuit was removed.
Gengar was unbanned with the release of DLC 2 and has since proven itself once again nigh unwallable. Thanks to Focus Blast it is the best poised of all the Ghost-types in the metagame to push through Tyranitar, which otherwise stands out as the preeminent Ghost counter, making the most popular and omnipresent form of prep for Gengar and its brethren unreliable. Its typing and coverage allow it to threaten many of the metagame's prominent defensive such as Sylveon, Ferrothorn, and Slowthings.
Gengar, while undeniably extremely offensively potent, has trouble finding opportunities to abuse its power and coverage because of its frailty. It cannot count on being able to come in on anything on the opponent's team in an average match, which means you require slow pivots to abuse it properly. To quote esteemed council member xavgb "the mons you wanna bring in the most vs pivots (pex, rotoms, lando/chomp/seis), and the most valuable mons that go towards stopping your opponent from just spamming pivots and breakers (speed control and hazard setters) are usually giving gar either no chances or half chances."
Spectrier lacks most of Gengar's weaknesses. It has bulk enough to tank hits from most Pokémon it doesn't outspeed. It sits at one of the best unboosted Speed tiers in the metagame, outpacing Pokémon like Weavile, Tornadus-Therian, Cinderace, and all base 110s that Gengar fails to beat out. It is not reliant on slow pivots to bring it in thanks to the previous points, and can instigate or shore up sweeps without needing to win a free turn of setup thanks to Grim Neigh. Besides that Spectrier is problematic for the same base reason Gengar is: its Ghost STAB simply hits too hard, forcing not just good special tanks, but specifically Ghost resists.
Despite Spectrier's many strengths it has one flaw which is news to no one; its coverage is complete garbage. What this means in practice is "[Spectrier] necessitates ghost resists more than [Gengar and Blacephalon], but loses to ghost resists more than the other two" to quote council nerd In The Hills. As Ghost resists are not just common but required for most teams to successfully function this cripples Spectrier's ability to practically put in work against many teams.
Tyranitar is considered nigh mandatory by some members of the council in order to deal with these spooky threats. Mandating one Pokémon is unhealthy, so this is a problem if true, however Tyranitar naturally finds its way onto a huge number of teams, and running it is no hardship. Other Ghost resists have taken a back seat because Tyranitar is so prominent and so good but they do exist with Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, Porygon2, and of course certain Blissey sets serving the purpose.
Blacephalon was briefly discussed by the council but the general consensus was that it is not a priority concern at the moment.
Tapu KokoSets: Choice Specs | Choice Band | Boots Pivot | Special Scarf | Physical Scarf | Calm Mind
As you can see from the listed sets above Tapu Koko has a lot of flexibility and potential for mixing it up. I did not even list every potential Tapu Koko set, Life Orb 3-4 Attacks physical for instance, simply because there are so many potential options. It is extremely difficult for even an experienced player to tell from team preview which set Tapu Koko is likely to be running, as they all provide somewhat similar coverage and a level of Speed control. A reliable Tapu Koko check needs good mixed defenses as a result, and cannot usually be a naturally faster Pokémon because those are rare and typically frail, not to mention susceptible to Scarf sets. The high base power of Rising Voltage and Bolt Strike make non-resists unlikely to be able to survive the 2HKO without Blissey-like bulk.
Unfortunately for Tapu Koko there are a decent number of Pokémon which are capable of tanking its dual STABs. Marowak-Alola, Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Rotom-Heat, Tapu Bulu, and Excadrill are all viable options that can check or counter every Tapu Koko set with varying degrees of success. Once the set is revealed other options such as Hippowdon and Blissey can counter safely as well, while some scarfers such as Landorus-Therian can reliably revenge kill it. Its reliance on both Electric STAB and its Terrain for power is an exploitable weakness as well, thanks to the common immunities available making Electric moves risky to lock into, while Terrain is vulnerable both to its timer being exploited in various ways (stalling turns, forcing Koko out and back in towards the end of Terrain) and to being reset by other Terrain setters.
Tapu LeleSets: Choice Specs | Choice Scarf | Calm Mind
Tapu Lele is more similar to Urshifu than to any of the other Pokémon listed here. It has one main nuke of a move in Expanding Force which is capable of heavily denting even resists. Thanks to its secondary STAB and coverage moves Dark types such as Tyranitar cannot switch into Tapu Lele unless it is already locked into a move by a choice item. Thanks to Psystrike even the fattest of walls cannot reliably take its attacks, with even Pokémon such as Blissey and Slowking being 2HKO'd by Specs.
On the flip side Lele's crazy breaking power is most noticeable on its Specs set, which has the same flaws as most Choice sets. The move it locks into is exploitable, and its Speed tier, while acceptable, will also be exploitable by something on most teams. Depending on the coverage move it runs several Pokémon such as Corviknight are capable of switching into it, and forcing it to lock into coverage moves when it has limited opportunities to come in in most matchups limits its utility.
Landorus-TherianSets: Choice Band | Swords Dance | Choice Scarf | Defensive | DOGGY
Landorus-Therian has been a staple of OU-based metagames for generations. Here the defensive and utility sets are still valuable but have lost some of their splashability, in no small part due to Urshifu ignoring Intimidate's drop with Wicked Blow. However offensive sets such as Band and Double Dance find themselves in the enviable position of 1-2HKOing pretty much the entire metagame. Ground/Flying is currently an excellent dual STAB to have, as our various Steel/Flying types and other resists have become less common. There are very few counters for Landorus-Therian, and even fewer that naturally make their way onto many teams. Because Flying has no immunities the few walls Landorus-Therian has must be careful to preserve their health in order to be able to check it, and several are vulnerable to trapping by the Magnezone line. Tyranitar, which is the most common Pokémon in the metagame in high level play, gives Landorus an easy switchin opportunity several times a match, especially the common SpD Tyranitar. Because it has Intimidate various other physical threats provide opportunities for Landorus to come in, either pivoted in or as a hard switch depending on sets and other factors such as previous damage and Choice locks, for example Zeraora, Cinderace, Buzzwole, and Garchomp.
On the flip side, methods of handling Landorus-Therian very much exist. Corviknight, Celesteela, and Skarmory can all at a minimum phaze it or pivot into an offensive check such as Weavile, Thundurus-Therian, or Urshifu (either, although Rapid-Strike is better for this purpose). If thought is put into how one plays against Landorus and minimal opportunities are given to let it in then it is able to be handled. The existence of autocrit moves, primarily Surging Strikes, can make the pseudo-bulk provided by Intimidate irrelevant, limiting the opportunities Landorus has to break.
What else we're thinking about:
The STABmons samples are SUPER outdated. They belong to the DLC 1 metagame and it's a miracle they're still legal. So with that in mind;
Please submit teams as samples!
Your teams should be tested against quality opponents. Replays are welcome but not mandatory. By submitting your team you give us the right to use it as a sample if we choose, and to make any edits we deem necessary, while still giving you overall credit for the team. We will, in general, try to not edit teams unless there is a glaring weakness or flaw on an otherwise acceptable team. Submitting your team does not guarantee that we will accept it as a sample. That decision will be left up to the council.
We would prefer if you filled out the following form and posted the results in this thread.
Code:
Team Name: (optional)
Team Paste: (pokepast.es link)
Brief Desciption of Team: (~10 words or less, preferably including the Pokemon it's built around and the team archetype.)
Notes: (again optional: include stuff like comments on how we could edit it if a ban goes through, a co-author if there is one, or tips on how to use it. Anything you wish to say that doesn't fit into the above categories.)Resources:
If anyone wishes to assist in the update of our resources please let us know. We are not prioritizing this at the moment, but the Role Compendium, Speed Tiers, and Viability Ranking all could use some work.
Given I wrote up a threatlist of my own a few months ago, I believe it should be time to follow up on that as the council has determined the order of action towards these Pokemon.
Quickbannable
Urshifu-Single-Strike
One thing I've found when playing around with Urshifu is that there's only one set that's really anything devastating - it just so happens that it has a lot of variation in the moveslots.
Urshifu @ Life Orb / Black Glasses
Ability: Wicked Blow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Thunderous Kick
- Poison Jab
- No Retreat / Sucker Punch
Thunderous Kick is ridiculously good on Urshifu - it never needs to worry about prediction games most of the time because of this move. Just clicking Thunderous Kick on most targets puts them in range of an OHKO against other moves. For example, versus Sylveon, a Thunderous Kick followed by a Poison Jab (252 Atk Life Orb Urshifu Thunderous Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 90-107 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery / 252 Atk Life Orb Urshifu Poison Jab vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 322-380 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) will almost always 2HKO a Sylveon. Aside from Buzzwole, this is also demonstrated with most of its checks - they are very easy to play around due to Thunderous' Kick's existence, and the general combination of those + Wicked Blow shuts out pretty much any defensive counterplay towards Urshifu that exists aside from Buzzwole or PDef Toxapex + Fairy, which is also handily messed around with by Thunderous Kick. From my experience of this mon it's hell to check; doable, but something I'd rather not have in the metagame right now.
Landorus-Therian
Landorus-Therian @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance
- Shore Up / Substitute
SD + Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian is nuts. This mon's practically got 0 defensive counterplay, and what counterplay it does have is generally via pivots that take obscene damage from +2 Dragon Ascent, and are easily forced into prediction games against Substitute variants, or purely offensive counterplay by simply not letting it in, like Urshifu. Even traditional resists like Slowbro fail to check SD Landorus-Therian - it simply hits far too hard with a far too spammable STAB to really be healthy for the metagame.
I think this calc wall shows enough of what Landorus-Therian can do. It forces a huge amount of rolls onto the metagame's checks, basically making it so that you only have a chance of beating it. This is insanely toxic for the metagame - only its defensive sets really give it any merit in the metagame.
Suspectable(?)
Gengar and Spectrier lie in a weird spot for me. They have counters that are nearly omnipresent on every team but it's clear that their presence on the field is not a healthy one. The mere existence of Tyranitar clearly pushes Spectrier back a few steps viability wise, and although Gengar can easily muscle through it, the introduction of Assault Vest Toxapex has been a pretty major pushback for it, not including the amount of other ways that Gengar gets checked, either through middling Speed tier, extremely fragile bulk (Sylveon can soft-check!), and a generally resilient metagame that includes loads of threats that are not OHKOd by any single move Gengar can pull out. Spectrier on the other hand, is far more polarized in its role, but due to Tyranitar being on every other team, Spectrier never really gets to show why it's so dangerous in the first place. I believe these two should be next in line for a quickban, but not before quickbanning Urshifu and Landorus-T first.
Additionally, I believe Blacephalon qualifies for this list under the usage of its speed boosting AoA set, given that its only true counter is Tyranitar and it has similar problems to Gengar:
Blacephalon @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 8 HP / 212 Atk / 16 Def / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Moongeist Beam
- Blue Flare
- Poltergeist / Knock Off / Shadow Sneak
Suspectable
Koko's a strong mon don't get me wrong, but from my initial analysis of it I was definitely wrong. Tapu Koko has a lot more counterplay than I initially had stated and for me its best set by far is Choice Specs, considering the amount of work the other sets have to do to get progress vs common Pokemon by comparison. Considering the strength of Ground types, common Steel types that aren't weak to Rising Voltage, and general specially defensive pivots that have started popping up on more and more teams, Koko is seeming more like a strong threat rather than an absolutely devastating speedy wallbreaker. The rise of Landorus-Therian as an offensive threat, Sylveon being omnipresent as ever, and the general state of the metagame put Koko in a spot where it can't really shine as greatly as it would on paper. I'd like to see this thing suspected at some point because I do believe it to be unhealthy, but not nearly to the same extent as the above 5.
Fine for now
I don't really see an issue with Tapu Lele in comparison to the other threats around. It's not exceptionally fast, it's not amazingly strong as a wallbreaker, and it suffers from initial power just like the other examples. Generally, the Steels running around aside from Heatran (Corviknight, Magearna, Aegislash, and depending on situation, Ferrothorn) all do an exceptional job at checking it. It may become a problem in the future, but I believe that generally Tapu Lele is not a problem in the STABmons metagame at all right now.
Samples:
I have a team I want to submit:
Nidoking VoltTurn Offense
https://pokepast.es/a20bd73cfcc5a365
This is a pretty fun team I've been using for STAB tours on occasion. Nidoking is a rather underrated wallbreaker that often doesn't get much in the way of preparation by most players - none of the top mons really do well against it, aside from the Grounds being able to pivot in on them in the case that they don't have Ice Beam, most traditional SpDef mons that would check it get blasted by Gunk Shot, and in the case that a true counter is found, Nidoking can easily just Spike up and pile on the pressure. Pairing with Nidoking is Keldeo - something that generally tends to lure in Pokemon that are heavily damaged by Nidoking, and helps provide the speed control for the team. Final Gambit also helps Keldeo potentially eliminate a Toxapex or heavily chip a Sylveon if the team desires it, and this can be used in multiple scenarios. Magearna & Landorus-Therian form a rather small defensive core here - Magearna utilizing Doom Desire to help out Keldeo and Latios break through Fairy types, and Landorus-Therian using Defog to at least have some support against Spikes. Both are relatively standard sets. 3A Latios gives the team an alternate Water resist to push some pressure off of Magearna to check things, and it being a strong and relatively fast wallbreaker also helps the team progress through the earlygame. Finally, Bulu is the second method of speed control, and seeks to be a physical cleaner that can break past certain resists in the lategame.
Alternatively, this team can use Ice Beam > Spikes on Nidoking, and utilize Stealth Rock over Defog on Landorus-Therian. Just be cautious that this team doesn't get too vulnerable to Spikestacking.
Finally, here's a more updated Viability Rankings of mine, hope it comes in handy in sorting out resource matters.
Quickbannable
Urshifu-Single-Strike
One thing I've found when playing around with Urshifu is that there's only one set that's really anything devastating - it just so happens that it has a lot of variation in the moveslots.
Urshifu @ Life Orb / Black Glasses
Ability: Wicked Blow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Thunderous Kick
- Poison Jab
- No Retreat / Sucker Punch
Thunderous Kick is ridiculously good on Urshifu - it never needs to worry about prediction games most of the time because of this move. Just clicking Thunderous Kick on most targets puts them in range of an OHKO against other moves. For example, versus Sylveon, a Thunderous Kick followed by a Poison Jab (252 Atk Life Orb Urshifu Thunderous Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 90-107 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery / 252 Atk Life Orb Urshifu Poison Jab vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 322-380 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) will almost always 2HKO a Sylveon. Aside from Buzzwole, this is also demonstrated with most of its checks - they are very easy to play around due to Thunderous' Kick's existence, and the general combination of those + Wicked Blow shuts out pretty much any defensive counterplay towards Urshifu that exists aside from Buzzwole or PDef Toxapex + Fairy, which is also handily messed around with by Thunderous Kick. From my experience of this mon it's hell to check; doable, but something I'd rather not have in the metagame right now.
Landorus-Therian
Landorus-Therian @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance
- Shore Up / Substitute
SD + Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian is nuts. This mon's practically got 0 defensive counterplay, and what counterplay it does have is generally via pivots that take obscene damage from +2 Dragon Ascent, and are easily forced into prediction games against Substitute variants, or purely offensive counterplay by simply not letting it in, like Urshifu. Even traditional resists like Slowbro fail to check SD Landorus-Therian - it simply hits far too hard with a far too spammable STAB to really be healthy for the metagame.
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 333-393 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 187-221 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 337-397 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 199-234 (66.1 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 195-229 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Landorus is EV'd to take 1 Steam Eruption from full HP)
+4 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 335-395 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 333-393 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 187-221 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 337-397 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 199-234 (66.1 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 195-229 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Landorus is EV'd to take 1 Steam Eruption from full HP)
+4 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 335-395 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
I think this calc wall shows enough of what Landorus-Therian can do. It forces a huge amount of rolls onto the metagame's checks, basically making it so that you only have a chance of beating it. This is insanely toxic for the metagame - only its defensive sets really give it any merit in the metagame.
Suspectable(?)
Gengar and Spectrier lie in a weird spot for me. They have counters that are nearly omnipresent on every team but it's clear that their presence on the field is not a healthy one. The mere existence of Tyranitar clearly pushes Spectrier back a few steps viability wise, and although Gengar can easily muscle through it, the introduction of Assault Vest Toxapex has been a pretty major pushback for it, not including the amount of other ways that Gengar gets checked, either through middling Speed tier, extremely fragile bulk (Sylveon can soft-check!), and a generally resilient metagame that includes loads of threats that are not OHKOd by any single move Gengar can pull out. Spectrier on the other hand, is far more polarized in its role, but due to Tyranitar being on every other team, Spectrier never really gets to show why it's so dangerous in the first place. I believe these two should be next in line for a quickban, but not before quickbanning Urshifu and Landorus-T first.
Additionally, I believe Blacephalon qualifies for this list under the usage of its speed boosting AoA set, given that its only true counter is Tyranitar and it has similar problems to Gengar:
Blacephalon @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 8 HP / 212 Atk / 16 Def / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Moongeist Beam
- Blue Flare
- Poltergeist / Knock Off / Shadow Sneak
Suspectable
Koko's a strong mon don't get me wrong, but from my initial analysis of it I was definitely wrong. Tapu Koko has a lot more counterplay than I initially had stated and for me its best set by far is Choice Specs, considering the amount of work the other sets have to do to get progress vs common Pokemon by comparison. Considering the strength of Ground types, common Steel types that aren't weak to Rising Voltage, and general specially defensive pivots that have started popping up on more and more teams, Koko is seeming more like a strong threat rather than an absolutely devastating speedy wallbreaker. The rise of Landorus-Therian as an offensive threat, Sylveon being omnipresent as ever, and the general state of the metagame put Koko in a spot where it can't really shine as greatly as it would on paper. I'd like to see this thing suspected at some point because I do believe it to be unhealthy, but not nearly to the same extent as the above 5.
Fine for now
I don't really see an issue with Tapu Lele in comparison to the other threats around. It's not exceptionally fast, it's not amazingly strong as a wallbreaker, and it suffers from initial power just like the other examples. Generally, the Steels running around aside from Heatran (Corviknight, Magearna, Aegislash, and depending on situation, Ferrothorn) all do an exceptional job at checking it. It may become a problem in the future, but I believe that generally Tapu Lele is not a problem in the STABmons metagame at all right now.
Samples:
I have a team I want to submit:
Nidoking VoltTurn Offense
https://pokepast.es/a20bd73cfcc5a365
This is a pretty fun team I've been using for STAB tours on occasion. Nidoking is a rather underrated wallbreaker that often doesn't get much in the way of preparation by most players - none of the top mons really do well against it, aside from the Grounds being able to pivot in on them in the case that they don't have Ice Beam, most traditional SpDef mons that would check it get blasted by Gunk Shot, and in the case that a true counter is found, Nidoking can easily just Spike up and pile on the pressure. Pairing with Nidoking is Keldeo - something that generally tends to lure in Pokemon that are heavily damaged by Nidoking, and helps provide the speed control for the team. Final Gambit also helps Keldeo potentially eliminate a Toxapex or heavily chip a Sylveon if the team desires it, and this can be used in multiple scenarios. Magearna & Landorus-Therian form a rather small defensive core here - Magearna utilizing Doom Desire to help out Keldeo and Latios break through Fairy types, and Landorus-Therian using Defog to at least have some support against Spikes. Both are relatively standard sets. 3A Latios gives the team an alternate Water resist to push some pressure off of Magearna to check things, and it being a strong and relatively fast wallbreaker also helps the team progress through the earlygame. Finally, Bulu is the second method of speed control, and seeks to be a physical cleaner that can break past certain resists in the lategame.
Alternatively, this team can use Ice Beam > Spikes on Nidoking, and utilize Stealth Rock over Defog on Landorus-Therian. Just be cautious that this team doesn't get too vulnerable to Spikestacking.
Urshifu + Sharp Beak Landorus-Therian Bulky Offense
https://pokepast.es/0b24260059184197
Disclaimer: Run Jolly Urshifu on this paste - this will have a weakness to Tapu Lele otherwise. It is also possible to run Life Orb - I am just paranoid of Rocky Helmet chip. If Urshifu & Landorus-Therian do get banned, you can replace them with No Retreat + U-turn LO Zapdos-Galar and a Soft Sand Garchomp - these are probably the two next best Doom Desire users.
This was a more recently crafted team that involves two of the biggest wallbreakers in the business - Urshifu and Landorus-Therian. This Urshifu set is a rather generic AoA set with Thunderous Kick, something that helps it carve through defensive Pokemon and pile on pressure throughout the game. This is paired with a generic Assault Vest Toxapex - the heavy role compression of which was needed to support the extreme anti-balance pressure this team exerts. Heatran was then added as a natural pairing to both Urshifu & Toxapex, which also provides a Psychic type switchin, as well as providing Doom Desire support. Given that some Fighting resists overlap with Landorus-Therian, that felt like my next natural pick, and due to its extreme offensive power, also fit greatly with Urshifu as something that could be utilized in the midgame after Urshifu had done its work as a wallbreaker. Finally, Corviknight and Tapu Bulu were added to assist as ground resists and potentially put some pressure off of Heatran to check Tapu Lele.
https://pokepast.es/0b24260059184197
Disclaimer: Run Jolly Urshifu on this paste - this will have a weakness to Tapu Lele otherwise. It is also possible to run Life Orb - I am just paranoid of Rocky Helmet chip. If Urshifu & Landorus-Therian do get banned, you can replace them with No Retreat + U-turn LO Zapdos-Galar and a Soft Sand Garchomp - these are probably the two next best Doom Desire users.
This was a more recently crafted team that involves two of the biggest wallbreakers in the business - Urshifu and Landorus-Therian. This Urshifu set is a rather generic AoA set with Thunderous Kick, something that helps it carve through defensive Pokemon and pile on pressure throughout the game. This is paired with a generic Assault Vest Toxapex - the heavy role compression of which was needed to support the extreme anti-balance pressure this team exerts. Heatran was then added as a natural pairing to both Urshifu & Toxapex, which also provides a Psychic type switchin, as well as providing Doom Desire support. Given that some Fighting resists overlap with Landorus-Therian, that felt like my next natural pick, and due to its extreme offensive power, also fit greatly with Urshifu as something that could be utilized in the midgame after Urshifu had done its work as a wallbreaker. Finally, Corviknight and Tapu Bulu were added to assist as ground resists and potentially put some pressure off of Heatran to check Tapu Lele.
Finally, here's a more updated Viability Rankings of mine, hope it comes in handy in sorting out resource matters.
Urshifu-Single-Strike has been quickbanned from STABmons!
| Name | Betathunder | drampa's grandpa | In The Hills | vivalospride | xavgb |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vote | ban | ban | ban | ban | ban |
For a couple posts discussing Urshifu see:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8751378
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8751507
This ban will NOT effect the current week of the STABmons Open.
The council is continuing to keep its eye on the previously detailed threats, most prominently Landorus-Therian, Gengar, and Spectrier. Gengar and Spectrier will likely be suspected at some point in the future, although we would like to see how a post-Urshifu metagame shakes out before making any decisions.
Landorus-Therian will likely be voted on by the council if we deem it necessary.
As before we are open for any and all sample submissions.
Last edited:
I'm out of the STABmons Open now! Thought I'd drop the teams I built and / or used because 
. They're of rather mixed quality, and I'm not going to bother sorting them right now.
- This is literally an OU Sample I added STABmons moves to. It's depressingly effective for what it is. Be careful against Bulu (or Rillaboom).
- This team is some gudstuff which has notable trouble with Swords Dance Lando-T.
- This team attempts to abuse TSpikes + Hex Spectrier. It sucked, and isn't legal anymore anyway.
- This team is a fairly fat balance that attempts to wall stuff between Buzzwole, Slowking, and Blissey, while pivoting into Lando-T to break, Koko to go zooooom, or Dragonite to sweep. If I were rebuilding I'd change up the Dragonite, either replacing it or changing the set, but I was apparently feeling it.
- Another gudstuff team, this time attempting to use Spectrier to Wisp Tyranitar in order to let Urshifu and Magearna come in more easily. Now banned, however I think Urshifu should be possible to replace.
I honestly don't remember building this so if I'm claiming someone else's team accidentally please tell me. Maybe I'm just going senile in my old age.
- I dropped this terrible Sand team after one trial. Please use it if and only if you're playing against me ^_^
- This team's main quirk was using Avalugg to wall Lando-T. Lugg is super bulky and can take on pretty much all neutral threats, and doesn't just fall over to the first Special attack either. This team has to play carefully around Tapu Koko. Nidoking and Seismitoad can check it well but if they get chipped at all you're probably screwed.
This is probably my favorite team I made this Open, although I won't claim it's the best. If I were going to edit it I would look at changing around Lando-T and Nidoking. They both tend to underperform a little.
- Remember that bad Dragonite set from above? This Salamence is basically the same thing but maybe not quite as bad. Spectrier is so prepped for in this metagame, and this team has trouble versus most teams that are adequately prepped for it, so it's not very good.
I don't think I would submit any of these as samples unfortunately. Most of my builds were rather weird, and tended to not be that great. Maybe next time.
. They're of rather mixed quality, and I'm not going to bother sorting them right now. - This is literally an OU Sample I added STABmons moves to. It's depressingly effective for what it is. Be careful against Bulu (or Rillaboom). - This team is some gudstuff which has notable trouble with Swords Dance Lando-T. - This team attempts to abuse TSpikes + Hex Spectrier. It sucked, and isn't legal anymore anyway. - This team is a fairly fat balance that attempts to wall stuff between Buzzwole, Slowking, and Blissey, while pivoting into Lando-T to break, Koko to go zooooom, or Dragonite to sweep. If I were rebuilding I'd change up the Dragonite, either replacing it or changing the set, but I was apparently feeling it. - Another gudstuff team, this time attempting to use Spectrier to Wisp Tyranitar in order to let Urshifu and Magearna come in more easily. Now banned, however I think Urshifu should be possible to replace. - I dropped this terrible Sand team after one trial. Please use it if and only if you're playing against me ^_^ - This team's main quirk was using Avalugg to wall Lando-T. Lugg is super bulky and can take on pretty much all neutral threats, and doesn't just fall over to the first Special attack either. This team has to play carefully around Tapu Koko. Nidoking and Seismitoad can check it well but if they get chipped at all you're probably screwed.This is probably my favorite team I made this Open, although I won't claim it's the best. If I were going to edit it I would look at changing around Lando-T and Nidoking. They both tend to underperform a little.
- Remember that bad Dragonite set from above? This Salamence is basically the same thing but maybe not quite as bad. Spectrier is so prepped for in this metagame, and this team has trouble versus most teams that are adequately prepped for it, so it's not very good.I don't think I would submit any of these as samples unfortunately. Most of my builds were rather weird, and tended to not be that great. Maybe next time.
LANDORUS-THERIAN HAS BEEN BANNED FROM STABMONS
Due to its sky-high Attack stat, excellent dual STAB, and acceptable Speed and defensive utility, Landorus-Therian could come in multiple times a match, set up, and break down any Pokemon without both the lack of passivity to pressure Landorus and the resistance (or if you're Avalugg raw bulk) to tank its moves. Landorus' flexibility in its final moveslot further complicated matters as, while it most commonly ran recovery, it could also run hazards, Stone Edge, Smack Down, Explosion, or even Gravity to push through would-be walls. Choiced sets also contribute to the ban rationale, as they pushed Landorus-Therian's offensive prowess and unpredictability further.
| Names | Betathunder | drampa's grandpa | In The Hills | Vivalospride | xavgb |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Votes | go vote beta smh | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban |
In other news...
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