Resource SS PU Viability Rankings

[Chloe]

art by UberSkitty
​

Most of you know the drill by now, but if you don't: viability rankings are a method of sorting Pokemon in a given tier based on how good they are in said tier. S rank is reserved for the defining Pokemon of the tier, while C rank is the place for near unviable Pokemon that have almost no worthwhile use in the metagame. As the metagame changes, the rankings are periodically updated by players who are well-versed in the tier. Note that ranks are currently done alphabetically and not by viability; this may change like it did last gen.

Do not post one-liners in this thread. Unless it is an exceptional sentence that is able to justify or explain something in a few words, one-liners rarely contribute anything of value to a thread. For NFEs not already included in the viability rankings (or even already included): put the effort into actually investigating its uses in the metagame and providing substantial FACTS and REPLAYS to prove your point before you post. Opinions contribute very little to the discussion if they do not have something to back them up, nor do posts that look at a single point and ignore everything else that has been said. When arguing for a Pokemon's ranking, account for opposition, and do not attempt to ignore the drawbacks of a Pokemon either.
If nominating an unranked Pokemon to be ranked, it is highly recommended that you get feedback from the PU room and/or Discord beforehand to make sure there is a concrete reason that said Pokemon deserves to be ranked.

For this thread, remember this: it is not on the community to do the research and debating for your proposed change. If you want something to rise, drop, or be added, please do the work to gather the evidence. If you made a nomination that didn't go through, it didn't get ignored - feel free to ask for reasonings by messaging a mod, or asking in the SQSA or PU Discord chat (but please do not ask in this thread). Also, contact a mod if you find a small error (Pokemon inadvertently omitted from the list, etc.) rather than posting in the thread about it.

PU does not use rank descriptions like some other tiers do. Each Pokemon in a rank should just be seen as above or under Pokemon in other ranks rather than needing to fit a certain set of criteria.


S Rank

Gigalith

Ribombee

A Rank
A+

Doublade

Sandslash

A

Archeops

Charizard

Eldegoss

Silvally-Ghost

Wishiwashi

A-

Aggron

Articuno-Galar

Ferroseed

Jellicent

Quagsire

Sneasel

Tangela

Weezing

Whimsicott

B Rank
B+

Audino

Centiskorch

Gallade

Lycanroc

Magneton

Qwilfish

Sandaconda

Silvally-Steel

Thwackey

Togedemaru

Vikavolt

B

Hitmonlee

Mesprit

Shiftry

Silvally-Fairy

Swoobat

Thievul

Trevenant

B-

Abomasnow

Altaria

Cinccino

Coalossal

Comfey

Frosmoth

Haunter

Jolteon

Lanturn

Mareanie

Ninjask

Regirock
Sableye

Silvally-Grass

Uxie

C Rank

Absol

Accelgor

Alcremie

Arctovish

Aromatisse

Articuno

Aurorus

Basculin

Clefairy

Ditto

Druddigon

Exeggutor

Froslass

Galvantula

Garbodor

Glastrier

Gourgeist-Small

Gourgeist-Super

Hattrem

Magmortar

Perrserker

Persian-Alola

Poliwrath

Pyukumuku

Rhydon

Rotom

Runerigus

Sawk

Silvally-Poison

Stunfisk-Galar

 

[MZ]

A note about these new rankings: It is absolutely a bit early to be doing this as opposed to a viability list, but I'm kind of tired of viability lists where it's very hard for non-council members to give any real input and people seemed to want a full viability rankings thread now so why not. It's still hard to judge this fairly new meta. Some subranks are a lot more expansive than others, some Pokemon are ranked based on the input of only a couple of council members, and the low ranks are awkward enough that we don't even have subranks in C-rank yet. Those will come, as will a lot of other fixes in time, this is just the "please understand" post. With that being said, go nuts.

 

[gum]

some quick noms

a -> a+
i was pretty surprised when i saw this ended up in a-rank. it's easily one of the tier's most splashable glue and checks a stupid amount of stuff, ranging from ribombee to tsareena and gallade. even outside of acting as a soft switchin to the majority of the tier's physical attackers, it has plenty of options to cripple switchins like regirock and jellicent with a random toxic / will-o-wisp and can always pivot out of bad matchups. other options like defog and the rarer sd / gale wings work too, and it's quite easy for these sets to perform well too with proper support. while i realize that's an argument u could use for just about any pokémon ever, i think it just adds to talonflame's versatility and splashability. also, it's basically speed control simply due to how fast it is (u should still run priority users alongside it though!!). it might not be as threatening offensively as zard, but the utility it provides to teams is unmatched and makes it worthy of a+ rank imo

c -> b-/b
this pokemon's criminally underrated!! it's still a fantastic breaker and while it doesn't provide teams with as much defensive utility as mons like regirock, palossand, and gigalith do, it trades that for being extremely hard to switch into and being able to dismantle common defensive cores after a single swords dance. it also pairs with excellent mons like roserade and virizion quite well. only reason i'm not nomming it for somewhere higher is because of the opportunity cost that comes with running it over other bulky ground- and rock-type rockers, as it forces u to run secondary answers to threats like archeops since it has no passive recovery, but those aren't particularly hard to fit on teams and usually work with rhydon rather well anyway

k that's all for now, ty for reading!

 

[iceblazer]

Pretty cool VR right here, lemme make a nom real quick

b -> b+

B really undersells Golbat imo, it’s an excellent pick at the moment. Yes, being forced to run eviolite and being weak to rocks absolutely sucks, and being weak to popular picks such as Heilo and Arch hampers it, but the amount of stuff that it walls more than makes up for it. Bat walls a good amount of mons at the moment, including Virizion, Rose, Toxicroak, and Passimian who are all top tier at the moment which can be a godsend for teams that don’t have the space for separate checks for them. Now, in case you’re about to object to this saying that Virizion always runs SE for Flying types, Viriz actually 3HKOs Bat without a boost.
252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 102-122 (28.8 - 34.4%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO
Even with a SD up, it’s a 2HKO on Viriz’s part. And Golbat either Roosts off the damage or retaliates back with BB:
0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 564-664 (174.6 - 205.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rose can’t do much either except put Bat to sleep. The same goes for Croak and Pass except they can Knock Eviolite off, and Croak has a couple other options for Flying types, so watch out for that. Overall, if you need a check to any of these mons, Golbat’s got you.

 

[PlusC]

Came to suggest Golbat go higher so backing up SovietSympathisers nomination. He's mentioned a lot of what I was going to but I wanted to point out the sheer versatility he has. He can set up Toxic Spikes, he can break stall with Taunt and Super Fang, he can even run a Nasty Plot set that has a really easy time setting up.

 

[UberSkitty]

Hello people I am UberSkitty and here are some noms

Rises:
Hitmontop: B -> B+
B is just a little too low for this mon for my liking. On top of its great role compression between priority, hazard removal, and useful resistances, it also offers a good offensive presence thanks to Technician. Triple Axel makes it not the easiest to wall as it covers stuff like Palossand and Xatu, who often serve as Fighting-resists, and even helps wear down others like Mesprit and Silvally-Fairy. It can also offensively check a bunch of fast threats like Heliolisk, Sneasel, and Togedemaru thanks to its strong Technician STAB Mach Punch. It's bulk is decent too, I've been able to stop mons like Scrafty from sweeping thanks to Hitmontop being able to take a hit and fire back. Not to mention this meta doesn't have the best Rapid Spinners, which can be valued by some over Defog if you don't feel like removing your own Roserade's Spikes and whatnot.
Tsareena: B -> B+
Another mon I'd like to see rise just a little, it's a solid Rapid Spinner or even Choice Scarfer. As I said with Hitmontop, Rapid Spinners are pretty limited right now, even if you might not be pairing Tsareena with Roserade there's still hazards like Weezing's Toxic Spikes and Ribombee and Vikavolt's Sticky Web you might wanna keep on your opponent's side of the field. While it may not have the highest Speed, Tsareena still has a great Attack stat and access to U-turn to make it a good revenge killer or way of gaining momentum. However, U-turn isn't Tsareena's only good move, since its movepool is overflowing between stuff like Power Whip, Triple Axel, Knock Off, and High Jump Kick. Also a being Choice Scarfer that is immune to priority thanks to Queenly Majesty is snazzy.
Carracosta: C -> B/B-
Why is this mon so low? It's still a fine Shell Smash user even with Omastar in the tier, and was apparently used in some recent Smogon tour battles or something. On top of priority to make up for it's lacking Speed, it has a couple options to help it set up between Solid Rock and Heavy-Duty Boots+Sturdy. It has a decent Attack stat alongside good STAB combination and stuff like Zen Headbutt to hit the few things that would wall it like Virizion and Toxicroak. It's definitely worthy of being higher than C.

Drops:
Regigigas: B- -> C
Speaking of being worthy of being higher than C... nah. Even with Protect and whatever it got this gen, Slow Start is way too much of a pain for this thing to become an actual offensive threat most of the time. I've tried specially defensive too, which does stuff, but even then I'd rather just use Miltank or Audino if I really wanted a specially defensive Normal mon. Or I could just be normal myself and run an actual special defense mon like Guzzlord, Gigalith, or Lanturn.
Eldegoss: C -> UR
This mon is so bad. While this mon's defenses are good especially with Regenerator, its movepool is way too atrocious for the bulk to make up for that. It doesn't have access to stuff like Toxic or U-turn to help against its switchins, and while Sleep Powder is nice and all but there are multiple better Grass-types that get that like Roserade and Tangela. And speaking of Tangela, that's a much better bulky Grass-type Regenerator mon with its Eviolite boost and good movepool with stuff like Knock Off and the previously mentioned Toxic and Sleep Powder. Even Ferroseed is better. Rapid Spin is nice and all but if I really wanted a Grass-type hazard remover I'd rather go Tsareena, Whimsicott, or Shiftry. The combination of being simply outclassed in all aspects and a horrendous movepool makes this mon just not good enough to be ranked. And no, it does not prove its worthiness in battle either.

Other stuff I considered but was less sure of:

Gigalith: A -> A+

Magneton: B+ -> B

Sawk: B+ -> B

Also Golbat doesn't get Toxic Spikes and Duosion is our lord and savior ok bye

 

[Bob Barker's Ghost]

Rise:

Shiinotic: Unranked -> C+

I went over this briefly in a post i made HERE, but I think Shiinotic is definitely an underrated definsive pokemon right now. Fairy/Grass typing allows it to potentially check a variety of top tier threats such as: Passimian, Absol, Vaporeon, Kabuto, Regirock, Gigalith, Scrafty, Gurdurr, Kingler, Thwackey, Flapple, Shiftry, Alolan Exxecutor, etc. While poison jab and flamethrower need to be scouted, Spore by itself is a broken move and should warrant at least some ranking on the viability list. I think Shiinotic is actually very strong and functions well on Rain teams, certainly well enough to warrant a spot on the rankings.

 

[BulbaBrain]

Hello New VR, Bulba here!

Ok I'm gonna do some noms because Roserade go byebye.

1. A- --> A/A+
Now Aromatisse doesn't just let in the best mon in the tier, it actually becomes one of the best mons in the tier. It is practically unbreakable unless you have a Poison/Steel type, provides amazing WishPassing support, and it isn't too passive with its decent 99 base SpA. Also Virizion doesnt like it and thats an S tier mon. With mons like Braviary, Passimian, Toxicroak and Gallade providing offensive support, this mon becomes an absolute staple on Balance/Bulky Offense teams, so A or A+ seems very fitting to me.

2. B --> A-
Tsareena in B is just in my opinion way too cruel. It has a great movepool and provides immaculate offensive utility with Knock, Spin and U-turn momentum. Just because it 'lets in Talonflame/Charizard' doesn't mean it just drops to B on the VR (Can't you just click knock/uturn?). Its also hard to revenge kill with Queenly Majesty, and puts a lot of offensive pressure on weaker teams with 120 base Attack. I've seen people run scarf, band, protpads, boots and many different sets of offensive utility and coverage which proves that this is a threatening menace and it has versatility. B is definitely undeserved here, and maybe that's just my preference of using this mon, but that's how I feel.

3. A- --> B+/B
Man, you got stuff like Vaporeon and Toxicroak and Heliolisk in A+ and u putting this shit in A- still? I understand that this is fast, Adaptability is crazy etc. etc. but this mon requires way too much prediction and has top tier mons with Water Immunities.

Okay that's it for me, hope u agree, but if u disagree pls tell me I'm wrong in another post :)

 

[Hera]

Oh, my turn!


B+ to A

I'm quite surprised by how much Absol is being underrated, because I see it as a great sidegrade to, or even better than, Sneasel, another popular STAB Knock Off user. While Absol doesn't have the great speed tier of Sneasel and the Ice STAB, it trades that for better survivability (letting it provide more in longer games), much better breaking power, and most importantly, coverage to hit standard Dark-type checks. Weezing does not want to take a Psycho Cut, Fairy-types hate Iron Tail, and Guzzlord is demolished by Close Combat. Sucker Punch is also great at forcing 50/50s that you can take advantage of. I also think there's much more room to experiment with Absol compared to Sneasel. While Sneasel is mandated to running Boots or Band to be successful, Absol has its choice of Band, SD LO, Black Glasses (my personal favorite), or Scarf. This makes Absol very flexible to fit a team's needs and hard to guess what it is from team preview. It's extremely good at what it does and I can't understand why it's so low.


B to B+

Froslass is very good at putting Spikes up and keeping them up. Ghost-type means it blocks spin attempts from mons like Claydol and Alolan Sandslash, and neither of them want to switch into a super-effective STAB or a Will-O-Wisp. In general, Froslass is just so GOOD at disrupting teams with status, keeping Spikes up because no spinners or Defoggers want to be crippled, and disposing of itself with Destiny Bond. It's a great boon to both offensive teams and hazards-stacking teams alike.


B to A-, Agree

Tsareena is very hard to switch into. Grass STAB is very valuable in a tier where Rock and Ground types are popular, and its ability to cripple its checks via Koff or pivot out with U-Turn is great. Even Talonflame isn't a surefire counter since Koff for a burn is a trade some teams are willing to make, and all Tsareena needs to do sometimes is Koff that one item, and suddenly teams are steamrolling. It's a great breaker, enabler, AND somehow has utility in Rapid Spin. It's really good and I completely agree with the rise.


B- to C, Disagree

I can understand wanting to demote Regi due to its rarity and how it's seemingly outclassed by options such as Miltank and Auduno, but I completely disagree. What sets Regigigas apart (and ultimately makes it better than them) from other options is not only its immense bulk, but also its Attack stat, letting it not be passive. Very little wants to switch into a SubTect set due to Toxic + Knock Off, and even those that can (Weezing, Silvally-Steel) are constantly worn down by repeated Knock Offs, cannot recover that health back, and fail to break a Regi Sub. It's a pain to bulky teams, and that alone deserves a rank above C (offensive sets are bad though, please never use them).


Swap Talonflame and Charizard

More explained opinions have been said about these two, so I won't go deeper into detail. Basically, many teams are running Talonflame over Charizard because of its speed tier, Flame Body, and a consistently powerful STAB in Brave Bird. U-Turn is also great at generating momentum, and you'll be hard pressed to find a matchup where Talonflame doesn't meaningfully provide. Meanwhile, Zard is still good, but struggles a bit compared to Talonflame. It doesn't have as much flexibility in its EVs as Talon does, making it has worse bulk overall. No U-Turn means it's a momentum sink at times, and it has issues fitting all the moves it wants at once (you want Toxic/Fire STAB/Defog/Roost/Wisp/Air Slash), while Talonflame can go without something like Wisp or Defog and still function well. Offensive sets could be neat, but I haven't seen enough of them to say anything, and not running Boots sounds like a death sentence.

Other noms I don't really feel strongly about:
(Water) B to B+
UR to C
A to A+
Abolishment of S Rank

 

[BulbaBrain]

Hello again, Bulba posting for the second time,

Did we miss out Electivire on this VR?

If not,
UR --> B or Higher

Electivire has a really nice niche as both a physical attacker and special attacker, and gets boltbeam for its physical set (STAB + Ice Punch). It works very nicely as a special attacker as well, getting access to flamethrower for grasses, and volt switch for momentum as well as some other coverage such as psychic and focus blast. It has a nice speed tier and good offensive stats, able to run LO, Scarf, Band, Specs and has a somewhat versatile movepool that something like Luxray and Manectric in the earlier metas cruelly lacked. With that in mind, I think the nomination above makes a lot of sense

Ok thats it, thanks for reading :)

 

[ManOfMany]

Hello again, Bulba posting for the second time,

Did we miss out Electivire on this VR?

If not,
UR --> B or Higher

Electivire has a really nice niche as both a physical attacker and special attacker, and gets boltbeam for its physical set (STAB + Ice Punch). It works very nicely as a special attacker as well, getting access to flamethrower for grasses, and volt switch for momentum as well as some other coverage such as psychic and focus blast. It has a nice speed tier and good offensive stats, able to run LO, Scarf, Band, Specs and has a somewhat versatile movepool that something like Luxray and Manectric in the earlier metas cruelly lacked. With that in mind, I think the nomination above makes a lot of sense

Ok thats it, thanks for reading :)

I don't think this nomination makes sense. First of all, being a mixed attacker is not a relevant niche, that is simply a capability that the pokemon has due to its moveset. It is no more relevant than saying "Audino is a wall" or "Scrafty is a setup sweeper" and doesn't say anything about how good the pokemon is. Electivire on paper appears pretty subpar in this metagame. Access to Ice Punch doesn't matter too much when the most common Ground-type, Palossand easily tanks that hit. And if you want an electric-type that is able to hit Grass-types hard you can go with Galvantula or Rotom-Frost. Heliolisk almost completely outclasses it as well, due to having equally good coverage and a much more useful ability and Speed tier. And that doesn't even get into all the other Electric-types with more useful defensive utility like Toge, Lanturn, Vikavolt, etc.
I can't think of a single reason to want to put Electivire on a team. (Wanting a physical Electric-type isn't a legit reason, that's just an aesthetic preference). There are much better pokemon if you want to put pressure on Water-types, gain momentum on a team, or use a speedy cleaner.

 

[BulbaBrain]

I don't think this nomination makes sense. First of all, being a mixed attacker is not a relevant niche, that is simply a capability that the pokemon has due to its moveset. It is no more relevant than saying "Audino is a wall" or "Scrafty is a setup sweeper" and doesn't say anything about how good the pokemon is. Electivire on paper appears pretty subpar in this metagame. Access to Ice Punch doesn't matter too much when the most common Ground-type, Palossand easily tanks that hit. And if you want an electric-type that is able to hit Grass-types hard you can go with Galvantula or Rotom-Frost. Heliolisk almost completely outclasses it as well, due to having equally good coverage and a much more useful ability and Speed tier. And that doesn't even get into all the other Electric-types with more useful defensive utility like Toge, Lanturn, Vikavolt, etc.
I can't think of a single reason to want to put Electivire on a team. (Wanting a physical Electric-type isn't a legit reason, that's just an aesthetic preference). There are much better pokemon if you want to put pressure on Water-types, gain momentum on a team, or use a speedy cleaner.

Thanks for the insight Many, I really appreciate somebody else's view on this. Yes, B was a bit unreasonable on my part and I admit I did not think of all the other electrics , but it shouldn't be unranked. Firstly, just because it is outclassed by certain Pokemon in higher ranks does not mean this just drops to unranked. It is strong enough to be used in the tier to a good extent.

Take this calc for example:
252 Atk Choice Band Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yes this is not too impressive, but its Palossand and Palossand is very impressive. I'm just trying to show that Electivire isn't just a weak mon thats totally unviable or whatever.

Now obviously, you might as well use Heliolisk over this, and that's objective - you should use Heliolisk over this, don't get me wrong. However, this is not an unranked mon. There are many Pokemon in C rank that fit into the category Electivire now runs in, and therefore I think it should be placed there.

Take Throh for example, a 'bulky Fighting type mon' which 'tanks hits' well enough, but you probably wouldn't use this mon at all right now given there are better mons and the niche adds pretty much nothing to the point one is making. Nonetheless, most likely you can find a somewhat decent amount of success with it.

I personally don't think we should carry a mentality of 'x and y outclass z therefore z has 0 viability'. Just because there are an abundance of good electrics in the tier doesn't make Electivire unviable, similar to how the abundance of good fire types in the tier (Charizard, Talonflame, Magmortar etc) doesn't make Turtonator immediately unviable as well. I obviously am aware that some people will disagree with this, saying something along the lines of "but it is pointless to use this if this just directly outclasses it." but in my opinion that concerns optimality rather than viability.

Thanks for reading :)

 

[Fifty Shades of Rez]

I am so happy to see some of these rankings, they make my heart warm!
Not only does Liepard, my favorite Pokémon, has a viability in PU despite being in ZU, and my 2nd favorite Pokémon, Archeops, seems to be terrorizing this tier, but the best thing is Regigigas being usable in a tier - seeing his potential being realized and utilized is truly a happy thing to witness!
I have played some PU with these Pokémon, and the fact they are usable really makes me happy

 

[sugar ovens]

The mentality already is "if it has a niche, it gets ranked". But there must be the niche, the reason to use it. Why should I use Electivire over Heliolisk/Galvantula/whatever? Throh is a spdef wall with Knock and phazing utility - Turtonator is a sweeper with great coverage that can quickly set up and break. The currently unranked Shiinotic has a unique typing and Spore, so you can use it to fix weaknesses of your team, as it can check Pokémon that other Grass or Fairy types can't cover. What does Electivire offer? You mentioned that it's a mixed/physical attacker, Many already addressed it - right now it seems more like a weakness to me. It being strong enough to be usable in the tier is not a reason to put it on a team, when there are alternatives that do the same job better. If a Pokémon is directly outclassed, using it on my team over the better alternative just puts me at a disadvantage - i lose the good traits of the alternative and get nothing in return, thus i'm instantly in a worse position. And it doesn't matter whether the outclassed Pokémon is "good" or "bad". Teambuilding is about optimalization and in order to be viable, a Pokémon must be an optimal choice for the role/niche you need when building.

 

[TTK]

almost forgot to post this lol
Alright finally getting around to making this because I've increased my amount of games on the ladder (I alternate with like 4 alts testing stuff) and I already had an idea of what I wanted to talk about but now I feel confident to state my opinion on the viability of the mons in the tier. Without further ado, let's begin.


C to B/B+: I lean towards B+ more but idk how people feel about massive rises but tbh it's well deserved when Garbodor is in mind. The fact that this was in C is crazy and yes the VR came up when Rose was still here so Garb had major competition as a spiker but even then, Garbodor is a fighting resist. Isn't that enough reason to not rank it so low? Either way, now with Rose gone, Garbodor is the best spiker in the tier plus again, it's a fighting resist, handling most of our best ones outside of Gallade really. The amount of utility this mon offers plus it has the bulk (when invested) to handle some of our most dangerous wallbreakers and its increasing usage, it defo warrants a rise and I don't think anyone would disagree with me here.

A to A+: Talonflame is crazy good and I've finally realised the hype around it. Very impressive speed tier, blanket checking much of the offensive meta like Virizion, Ribombee, Sneasel, the rest of the fighters. Its overall quality and utility is as good as the rest of the A+ mons imo and should be swapped with Zard tbh for the same reasons Heracross 2.0 has mentioned..

B- to C/Unranked: Why is this thing ever going to ranked in a PU metagame? Protect and Rest do not save this thing from being a unmon in a fighting infested tier and the massive amount of support required to make this thing work (most of the time it doesnt work), it's a 6v5 trying to use this mon. If you want a normal, use anything else that's remotely viable. Regigigas says it best itself, it just can't get itself going.

A- to A: Last nom that I have explanations for, I feel like Mesprit is reclaiming its glory from SM as such a versatile and great mon overall. I find myself always heading towards Mesprit as a defensive fighting answer which also possesses slow pivoting plus hazards. Uxie arguably does a better job when it comes to defensive psychic but Uxie is much more passive than Mesprit and Mesprit has Healing Wish which is amazing in the lategame. Defensive also isn't the only good set, Nasty Plot Colbur, offensive rocks Colbur, Specs/Scarf; basically Mesprit from SM with the addition of Nasty Plot. It's no longer S tier but it's definitely still a top tier threat and probably the most versatile mon in the tier.

Other noms with no/hardly explanations

• Cofagrigus and Runerigus C to B (that cm iron defence cofa is lowkey a threat be careful)
• Agree with Weezing to A+
• Disagree with Absol to A, B+ is fine
• Agree with Basculin A- to B+, water immunes are too commonplace rn
• Unrank Eldebad please
• Agree with Golbat B to B+

 

[Lily]

TSAREENA SIMP POST INCOMING


Tsareena: B -> A-

I don't know what I'm missing that you guys aren't but judging by opinions in the Discord server, people seem to actually believe Tsareena belongs in B rank. This is blatantly untrue and here's why:

A) Offensive presence
It's no secret that this tier is lacking in long-term Grass resists - that's why Virizion is being suspected after all! Unfortunately for Virizion, it has to get by with weak STABs like Giga Drain and Leaf Blade. Tsareena does not suffer from this issue. Here are some calcs to demonstrate the power difference. Note that these calcs include Life Orb Virizion and Boots Tsareena.

252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 291-346 (62.7 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 366-432 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 203-242 (54.2 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 252-296 (67.3 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Fairy: 156-185 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Fairy: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 86-101 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 3.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 105-125 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The difference is pretty big and helps a lot with pressuring fat cores that revolve around the likes of Gigalith/Vaporeon/etc and yes, it does not have STAB Close Combat like Virizion does but it's not like it needs it because Grass STAB is just so spammable in PU.

B) Utility
This is the main point. Tsareena has a LOT going for it in the utility section because of its three most common [and imo best] moves: Rapid Spin, Knock Off, and U-turn.
Tsareena is so strong that teams are forced to play very linearly against it - if they have something like Charizard or Talonflame, they pretty much have to send that out. Knock Off severely cripples these Pokemon because they can't reliably defog against Pokemon like Gigalith or Regirock, so they're stripped of 50% of their HP very consistently - all defensive utility then goes out the window, including checking both Tsareena itself and also its teammates.
Rapid Spin is also a boon in a tier that doesn't really have the best hazard removal. TFlame, Zard, the Vallies etc. are all quite decent but generally prefer to run other things so that they can be more proactive, like an extra coverage move or U-turn. Tsareena has the benefit of not really needing the moveslot it uses on Rapid Spin, being able to switch into and defeat the best rockers (Gigalith, Regirock, Palossand) AND being able to use it as an offensive weapon. Seriously, try dealing with a +1 speed Tsareena. It isn't easy.
Anyway, the important part of this is how much Knocking items from Pokemon like Charizard, Weezing and Talonflame actually opens up for your team. Passimian suddenly goes from eternally walled to eternally clicking Close Combat without punishment. Magmortar's left without any reliable switch ins, and even the things that can try to like Vaporeon and Jellicent happen to be pretty easy entry for Tsareena.
Lastly, I'm not going to explain what U-turn does but everyone knows how powerful it is as an offensive tool. Being able to get in breakers like Heliolisk, Magmortar, Toxicroak, and Vanilluxe in against stuff like Garbodor and Weezing for free is really really good.

C) How well it pairs with common Pokemon in the tier
The main one here is Vaporeon. Tsareena is an outstanding partner for Vaporeon, able to help it with a multitude of issues like being Heliolisk fodder, being free entry and forever walled by opposing Vaporeon and Jellicent, and being able to switch into stuff like Whimsicott and Virizion with the aid of a Wish. More importantly, though, is how Vaporeon benefits Tsareena. Its great natural bulk means that Wish support keeps it healthy for a long ass time especially because it gains free entry on so much shit like Palo/Gig/Regi/Vapo after Vaporeon switches into them and Wishes. Heal Bell also means that it can pivot into Scalds with ease, which is amazing because that move is currently very punishing to deal with. It also deals with burns from Talonflame's Flame Body, and Vaporeon is also a good Talonflame/Weezing/Charizard pivot on top of all that.

Other Pokemon it pairs well with include stuff like Talonflame and the Vallies, which it forms a great momentum core with, Palossand, which it can take Water moves and stuff for, and Virizion itself because good luck dealing with both of them with your half-assed Grass resists.

I'll gather replays later if they're required but this mon is really really really good and it should be explored a loooot more than it currently is. Please give it + Vapo a try, I promise you'll be impressed with the results.

 

[gum]

rises

a -> s
yeah ok i know i already nommed this to a+ and the vr hasn't been updated since but i truly believe talonflame deserves to be s. what i said in my previous post still stands; it's by far the tier's most splashable glue due to the stupid amount of stuff it checks thanks to its typing and usable bulk. like, i find it hard to not slap a talonflame on a team when it has a million of different options and it can easily fit any team's needs. flare blitz with 136 attack especially is a good one on heliolisk weak teams, as u ohko it with flare blitz. other options like taunt + toxic, sd + roost, or even roost 3 attacks are also solid, which further adds to its splashability. but yeah i'm just repeating stuff i already mentioned in my other post lol

a -> a+
palossand is really great atm. its typing, access to reliable recovery, and physical bulk make it an extremely sturdy rocker and fighting resist capable of checking a bunch of other potent physical attackers like archeops. it also pairs really well with other solid options and is rather splashable. not much else to say tbh, it's a rather straightforward mon that doesn't require any explaining

c -> b
frosmoth is still good! it needs a bit of support, but its great spa + special bulk make it quite threatening and give it ample setup opportunities vs common special attackers like ribombee, whimsicott, and heliolisk. i think substitute especially is good on it; it allows frosmoth to prey on bulky water-types and other walls that have to rely on status to not be complete setup fodder. substitute also makes it considerably harder to revenge kill and punishes people that tend to go hard on their scarfers / talonflame. obviously, it has no real coverage for steels and fires, and the speed tier is an issue, but they're rather easy to chip down unless they're called spdef togedemaru, and substitute kinda helps with the latter issue. i think it could end up higher (like, a-) but yeah baby steps

drops

s -> a+/a
archeops is great, i just really don't see it as being on par with virizion (and talon!). offensively it feels a bit underwhelming; there's plenty of solid defensive counterplay on most team where like, it mostly just feels like a u-turn bot most of the time. speaking of which, it's probably the best mon at gaining momentum in the tier due to the amount of stuff it forces out with that monstrous 145 attack, but as far as defensive utility goes, it has beyond none. i really can't stress this enough; defeatist is a horrible ability on a mon like this. being forced out by so much in fear of being knocked into defeatist range absolutely sucks and leaves it rather easy to offensively pressure. i know some people have tried special / mixed sets to good results, but i don't think those sets are common enough to warrant it staying in s-rank. not a bad mon at all, i just see it more on par with other strong options like toxicroak and passimian

b+ -> b-/c
i know the vr is new and obviously there's gonna be a lot of inaccuracies, but i really fail to understand why this was ranked so high to begin with? on paper, specs + stakeout is cool-ish, but i have a hard time finding a reason to ever use this over otherwise more solid breakers. its speed tier & average spa also mean that it doesn't force out as many threats as it once did in previous meta, while unburden sets are rather bad due to, again, power creep, and terrain in general being a pretty bad playstyle

ty for reading!!

 

[iceblazer]

-> ur

No Drought = no viability. Sorry, but the Tork won’t be cutting it this gen.

-> b
-> c

Terrain teams aren’t so hot nowadays due to the extensive amount of support they need and the fact that the best abusers of them are long gone. Additionally, they compete with other, more consistent team styles such as Offense and Balance. Not to mention they are other mons in the tier that require less prep for a sweep (even hitmonlee can do fine with normal gem + fake out or white herb + curse).

What does Pincurchin do again? As a Spikes setter, Ferroseed does a better job at that by being a bigger annoyance, and Garbodor, Accelgor, and Froslass have the ability to actually apply offensive pressure instead of being a total momentum sink.

-> b+

Lass is pretty cool right now. It does the same old Spikes suicide lead thing it’s always done, but I want to talk about the CB set. It’s surprisingly consistent in terms of viability, being able to bop Virizion with Axel and get Arch into Defeatist range with Ice Shard (it speed ties in actuality, but I prefer to take the safer route). Poltergeist’s also nice, being able to damage Talon without the fear or getting burned by Flame Body is a plus in my book. Also has a nice MU vs Whimsi, Palo, Braviary etc.

 

[Twilight]

C -> B
Haunter is hella underrated especially when it doesn't even face competition as a special Ghost-type wallbreaker. The number of Ghost resists in this tier are so low that Shadow Ball is easy to spam especially off such a high SpA stat with a resectable Speed tier. It's got a great STAB combination and when paired with Dazzling Gleam you can plough past Guzzlord and Scrafty. I've been using 3 Atk sets + Destiny Bond the most but it can also pull off options like Substitute well. Hex + Wisp sets are also obnoxious and effective. I haven't really used Choice-locked sets but I'd imagine they have viability. The main thing holding it back is the absolutely dreadful bulk it has, which means it more or less offers no defensive utility, as even Leaf Blade from Virizion can 2HKO it.

Silvally-Ghost B+ -> A-
120 BP physical Ghost STAB with no drawbacks that can be further boosted by Swords Dance, lol. The same thing as before, this tier just lacks many good Ghost-type switchins but unlike Haunter, this one has bulk and the ability to boost its Speed off a respectable Speed tier. Access to U-turn makes it a great pivot that punishes those Dark-types that attempt to check it.

C -> B/B+
EdgeQuake is a really strong STAB combination, especially off a 130 Attack stat. Heat Crash is great for the tier's Grass-types or Toxic can be used to cripple them plus other checks like Palossand. This tier is pretty much devoid of offensive Ground-types that can set Stealth Rock and it has the bulk thanks to Eviolite, which usually lets it stomach most super effective hits on the physical side.

A- -> A+
I feel like this is pretty self-explanatory but it's the most flexible Pokemon in the tier. It offers so much utility with SR + Healing Wish and it pulls off offensive sets so well in a tier devoid of many Steel- and Dark-types. The big thing holding it back is the Speed tier letting most offensive threats hit it first but this can always be patched up with a Choice Scarf or a Berry.

Carracosta C -> B
Pretty much agree with what UberSkitty said before about Carracosta.

UR-> B+/B
This Pokemon is solid imo so I am surprised it wasn't initially added in the first place. Its STAB combination hits incredibly hard with Virizion pretty much being the only common thing that resists both, but even that can get 2HKO'd by Stone Edge after Stealth Rock. It can be used both on and outside of rain teams and has a good amount of flexibility in what sets you can run with offensive SR, Choice Band, Swords Dance etc. Personally, I consider it to be more or less on par with Kabutops but the base 80 Speed tier Kabutops has is definitely nice when it comes to Speed tieing with stuff like Mesprit + access to both SR and Spin.

I also agree with Froslass rising but I honestly think an argument can be made for that to rise to A-, fantastic offensive typing with an insane Speed tier and Spikes. People should really use these offensive Ghost-types more, they make so much progress in this tier if you support them well.

 

[2xTheTap]

Hi all, council (minus HJAD and Ktut) voted on your recent VR nominations this weekend! We also provided some of our own noms (denoted with an asterisk) with this update.

As you can see, there are some pretty obvious trends here: our Fighting-types, especially Virizion, Passimian, Scrafty, and Toxicroak, are incredibly dominant at the moment, and as such, many Pokemon that are commonly used to check these (either offensively or defensively) were given a bump up in ranking: ex. Talonflame, Palossand, Silvally-Ghost, Cofagrigus, Runerigus, Froslass, Golbat, Silvally-Poison, Trevenant, etc. And, as a result of these Fighting checks seeing more use, so too did Pokemon used to combat these Fighting checks, ex. Talonflame is incredibly common at the moment, and so Lycanroc was given a fairly high placement for something that wasn't previously ranked. In general, some of these changes can simply be accounted for by us having more time to use everything since that massive tier shift happened; basically, the longer this meta continues without major changes happening, the more accurate these rankings will become, and so you'll see stuff we may have overlooked previously rise in viability, ex. Rhydon, Sandaconda, Miltank, Frosmoth, etc.

As far as drops go, many of these Pokemon (save the ones we unranked, Eldegoss and Regigigas) are not necessarily ineffective, but their drop in viability and usage mostly stems from the fact that they're not efficient in combating larger portions of the meta and require more building support to use effectively. Archeops especially fit the bill here; it is one of the most difficult Pokemon to prepare for and is hugely threatening once it's been brought onto the field, but building with it while mitigating your teams' weaknesses to other threats isn't the easiest thing to do, and so it isn't very splashable in this meta. Other Pokemon that dropped were simply overshadowed by Pokemon of the same typing, or if it was a Silvally that dropped, a different Silvally typing is built with more frequently, ex. Silvally-Fairy/-Steel/-Ghost are used far more often than Silvally-Dragon and -Ground; and, Fighting-types like Sawk and Gallade are very strong, but they aren't nearly as threatening as Toxicroak or Virizion, nor do they provide the same level of defensive utility by any means.

In any case, if you have any questions about the below, feel free to shoot me a PM here or on Discord.

Rises:

A to S

A- to A
A to A+
* B+ to A-
* UR to A-
A to A+
(Ghost) B+ to A-
* A to A+

* B to B+
C to B
B to B+
C to B-
C to B
B to B+
C to B-
* C to B
B to B+
C to B-
C to B
* C to B
* (Poison) C to B-
* C to B-

Drops:

S to A+
* A to A-

* A- to B+
A- to B+
* B to B-
* A- to B+
B+ to B
* B to B-
B+ to B
* (Dragon) B+ to B
* (Ground) B+ to B
B+ to B

B- to C
B+ to C

C to UR
B- to UR


Some of my own noms for people to discuss for a future update:

Sorting out offensive Water-types and having the VR reflect their varying levels of effectiveness: Omastar > Kingler > Clawitzer > Arctovish, imo.
B to A-/A
This performs very well in a meta wherein Water resists, save Vaporeon and Jellicent, typically run without recovery, while at the same time, Talonflame is incredibly common and so Weak Armor boosts happen frequently.

A to A-
A funky midground between Archeops and Passimian that doesn't see much use in this meta; while it may have similar levels of bulk, Defiant, and is just as fast as Passimian, Passimian can run a Choice Scarf without being chipped as badly by SR and gives you the utility of Knock Off and the resists of a Fighting-type while still being able to pivot. Or, you'll spring for a much stronger Flying-type in Archeops, which like Braviary, also has the ability to KO Flying resists like Togedemaru and Gigalith, but without taking any chip from Rocky Helmet / Iron Barbs or Sandstorm in the process in either case. It may be a case of its niche in the meta being somewhat ill-defined, in that people are simply not running the right sets, but even if it's running Boots with BU + Roost or 3 attacks + Roost as it should, it's still very much one of those Pokemon you have to build around in order to use effectively rather than it providing the support its teammates need.

B+ to B/B-
Before this most recent update, Scyther was sitting up in B+, even above Golbat; I don't really think that placing reflects Scyther's position in the meta well, considering that, as a resist to Virizion's dual STABs, it is slower than Virizion (unless Scyther is running Choice Scarf, but if it's CS, then it'd have a lot of trouble cleaning up late-game anyway due to how common Pokemon like Regirock, Gigalith, Togedemaru, etc. are and now it'd require way more support than a Pokemon ranked in B+ would otherwise thanks to it not running Boots), making it an easy target for Air Slash on specially offensive sets or Stone Edge on mixed or physically offensive ones. Your Virizion checks should essentially either run enough bulk to take it on (ex. Golbat), or at least be run faster than Virizion, which can be used to explain why Pokemon like Talonflame, Whimsicott, and Ribombee are seeing more usage, while Scyther's usage is lower by contrast and should remain that way unless something changes for Scyther. Another factor that comes into play here is how often Scyther is rendered useless in many match-ups by virtue of how little it can accomplish in the face of Pokemon like Gigalith, Togedemaru, Regirock, Palossand, etc.

 

[Pabloaram]

Hi!! I have a question: why lycanrock was UR to A-? What he does and why he wasn't in the vr before?? Nice week doods

 

[rien]

Hi!! I have a question: why lycanrock was UR to A-? What he does and why he wasn't in the vr before?? Nice week doods

Talonflame is incredibly common at the moment, and so Lycanroc was given a fairly high placement for something that wasn't previously ranked.

 

[Pabloaram]

I mean is what he does to be that high??

 

[Katy]

I mean is what he does to be that high??

I think it's not only because of Talonflame and its potential to revengekill and threaten it out, it is also due to other common placed Pokemon in the metagame which it is able to outspeed and therefore scaring them out or revengekilling them, staples like Charizard, Froslass, Archeops, and Scyther all fall short due to Lycanrocs better Speed tier and great STAB and coverage. On top of it, such a fast Pokemon got granted a strong priority attack in Accelerock, which is pretty good to revengekill weakened faster foes. So it pretty much deserved its placement that high in the VR.

 

[Joe Career]

Also it has decent attack and speed, good coverage in Close Combat, Drill Run, etc and Swords Dance so by default it would've been in the C's, it was just overlooked until now.