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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)
- Thread starter TPP
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Instead of saying the council is evil or doing a bad job, I want to focus on the real problem and a possible solution.
In my eyes, and as it seems many others, the tiering process is not fast enough. Maybe the council could have handled some things different, but I think all in all they did a god job.
The alternatives to what they did are quickbanning more mons early on or quickbanning mons many weeks after a big metagame shift without retesting them. Both options would end in the council having more power/ the public having less to say, as it was extensively discussed above.
So there probably needs to be a different way than the quickban, where the public can't say anything, and the supect test, that takes way too long when there are DLCs.
My idea would be to expand on the idea of the community survey that they did a few weeks before:
Make a community survey every few weeks where people can vote if a mon/all the problematic mons should be quickbanned/suspect tested. If a mon gets enough votes it gets quickbanned/suspected.
To ensure that the voting people know about the stuff that they are voting on, only the top tournament and ladder players would be allowed to vote.
This would be a tool that allows faster banning of problematic mons with involvement of the community.
On top this could be used to determine the order of suspects, so nobody can say XY was not tested first, because the council didn't want it to be tested.
And all in all it would give a much better, factual basis for a discussion of future tiering action then there is at the moment.
I know this would be a huge change, but obviously the way we handle it at the moment does not really work with DLCs.
And if we wait to see if the DLC model stays until the next generation, that could be really bad for the current generation.
I just wanted to present this idea and try to be constructive.
So, what do you think?
In my eyes, and as it seems many others, the tiering process is not fast enough. Maybe the council could have handled some things different, but I think all in all they did a god job.
The alternatives to what they did are quickbanning more mons early on or quickbanning mons many weeks after a big metagame shift without retesting them. Both options would end in the council having more power/ the public having less to say, as it was extensively discussed above.
So there probably needs to be a different way than the quickban, where the public can't say anything, and the supect test, that takes way too long when there are DLCs.
My idea would be to expand on the idea of the community survey that they did a few weeks before:
Make a community survey every few weeks where people can vote if a mon/all the problematic mons should be quickbanned/suspect tested. If a mon gets enough votes it gets quickbanned/suspected.
To ensure that the voting people know about the stuff that they are voting on, only the top tournament and ladder players would be allowed to vote.
This would be a tool that allows faster banning of problematic mons with involvement of the community.
On top this could be used to determine the order of suspects, so nobody can say XY was not tested first, because the council didn't want it to be tested.
And all in all it would give a much better, factual basis for a discussion of future tiering action then there is at the moment.
I know this would be a huge change, but obviously the way we handle it at the moment does not really work with DLCs.
And if we wait to see if the DLC model stays until the next generation, that could be really bad for the current generation.
I just wanted to present this idea and try to be constructive.
So, what do you think?
Apparently it's good but there would be some huge problem: where do you vote?
if someone has got more alts in the top500 has more vote? And if someone is not online during the weeks?
You'd vote here on the forums, like always. And you'd post a screenshot that proves you're high ladder, like always.
I've noticed with every suspect, there's always somebody who wants to call out the council on some sort of inaction or action that they take, despite being abundantly clear about what they aim to do and why. I won't repeat anything theotherguytm said but his post is phenomenal regarding the issue and I highly recommend you read it if you want a good scope of what's actually going on.
There is no "secret plan" to make the metagame stall. There is no high, dominant agenda that any formal council here has, and the notions saying as such are immensely uninformed and narrow minded. The way a good chunk of people have responded to the council throughout the generation has been really ridiculous, childish, and disruptive of metagame discussion just because someone wants to think that they got the council in the corner and are advocating for a better Smogon. A better Smogon is not created by battling nonexistent corruption, but rather by promoting unity, civility, and actual discussion on what's meant to be discussed. It's really saddening and concerning to see how the council is being put into such a terrible lose-lose situation regarding their approach to the metagame, especially with how they've been trying to be much more transparent and receptive than in past generations.
If you have suggestions on how to improve things, bring it up in a civil, non-confrontational way, message a council member, or anything other than trying to target the council. Targeting and attacking gets us nowhere, and is a reason that Smogon is so poorly esteemed to begin with. So, in other words: discuss the metagame. If you have concerns that you want to bring up, bring them up, but do so in an informed, civil fashion, as opposed to tossing blame around.
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To actually get things back on track: I would like to bring up Urshifu at the moment. I've been somewhat curious as to its surprising lack of use, as with the little time I've had to get suspect requisites, I've seen it only twice out of nearly 40 games. We know as to Urshifu's immense power and wallbreaking ability, and not only has it seen surprisingly sparse usage, but at the same time, I feel the metagame has somewhat adapted to it. But... it's still an Urshifu, with one of the most powerful offensive moves and midground options in the game. It could partially be Cinderace just being an overall more effective Pokemon, but I'm curious: what do you guys think is up with it?
There is no "secret plan" to make the metagame stall. There is no high, dominant agenda that any formal council here has, and the notions saying as such are immensely uninformed and narrow minded. The way a good chunk of people have responded to the council throughout the generation has been really ridiculous, childish, and disruptive of metagame discussion just because someone wants to think that they got the council in the corner and are advocating for a better Smogon. A better Smogon is not created by battling nonexistent corruption, but rather by promoting unity, civility, and actual discussion on what's meant to be discussed. It's really saddening and concerning to see how the council is being put into such a terrible lose-lose situation regarding their approach to the metagame, especially with how they've been trying to be much more transparent and receptive than in past generations.
If you have suggestions on how to improve things, bring it up in a civil, non-confrontational way, message a council member, or anything other than trying to target the council. Targeting and attacking gets us nowhere, and is a reason that Smogon is so poorly esteemed to begin with. So, in other words: discuss the metagame. If you have concerns that you want to bring up, bring them up, but do so in an informed, civil fashion, as opposed to tossing blame around.
--
To actually get things back on track: I would like to bring up Urshifu at the moment. I've been somewhat curious as to its surprising lack of use, as with the little time I've had to get suspect requisites, I've seen it only twice out of nearly 40 games. We know as to Urshifu's immense power and wallbreaking ability, and not only has it seen surprisingly sparse usage, but at the same time, I feel the metagame has somewhat adapted to it. But... it's still an Urshifu, with one of the most powerful offensive moves and midground options in the game. It could partially be Cinderace just being an overall more effective Pokemon, but I'm curious: what do you guys think is up with it?
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It is as fast as it can be, I will just quote Finch here as he put a timeline of what they did this year.
I don't see how it gets faster than this, they have suspected about 5 elements between home and DLC1 metas. Considering every suspect lasts for 2 weeks and we need time for the metagame to settle down, the process functions fine.
This is what they are trying to avoid, they would rather have the public to vote on as many suspects as possible and don't quick ban unless it is necessary.
This is indeed a problem that everybody (including the council) acknowledges. The DLC marketing model hurts our systems too much, but the OU council alone is not in a position to change the system. They are tied to Tiering Admins and they only follow the existing guidelines. If this model stays, then you can be sure that we will also adapt to avoid future problems.
Making a community survey "every few weeks" will not work for various reasons.
- This is already what suspect tests aim. Council does not determine the faith of an element by putting it to the public vote, that power stays with the community. The majority of the voters voting ban does not mean the council banned that Pokemon, and there are some examples of stuff staying unbanned. (See Scizor and Mega Altaria suspects UU last generation, they are back to back.)
- This just adds more constraint to the existing suspect process as you are just adding more time on top of 2 weeks of suspect laddering + time for the metagame to settle.
- Picking who is eligible to vote is not an easy task, it involves tracking everybody on the simulator, reach to their Smogon accounts, and ask for their vote. This is not a one-day job and on top of that, we will repeat this process after the suspect ladder while the vote is being cast.
- Suspect process actually functions faster than this as long as we don't quick ban, but that kills the purpose of having the community involved.
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Ok let's be real on a few things:
The council and staff are all unpaid volunteers, so there's no reason to personally attack them for "not doing their job" -- props to them for the time, but obviously there's dissatisfaction with the way things are and I don't see much being done to change the status quo.
- 95% of people playing OU are smelly garbage at the game and just copy-paste stuff off here; the "balance" of the OU tier doesn't matter to them. (Nothing wrong with that..it's how people learn). Making game balance decisions to quell forum complaints is misdirected from the actual objective of balancing a game.
- The councils of each tier only operate within the bounds that are laid out by the tiering guidelines of the site. Sometimes this is done more lackadaisically than would be ideal, but the high-level principles are beyond the control of any individual tier.
- There's no reason beyond Smogon self-righteousness for the suspect process (or even the existence of suspects) to be so rigid. All the rules here are made up anyway. A supreme dictator banning stuff immediately has the same end-result as months of drawn out suspects, the former just doesn't appease forum babies.
The council and staff are all unpaid volunteers, so there's no reason to personally attack them for "not doing their job" -- props to them for the time, but obviously there's dissatisfaction with the way things are and I don't see much being done to change the status quo.
What does everyone think of Hawlucha right now? It's been all over the place in terms of viability as it responds to the many metagame changes over time. I think giving it top tier terrain support is nice, as it's able to utilize Grassy Seed and get its Unburden boost right away. I think it struggles a lot with many top tier mons like Hippowdon, Clefable and Toxapex though. Has anyone run any interesting tech that alleviates some of its bad S/A tier matchups?
I think
is really cool ya, but as you said, it can struggle with top meta-threats like Hippo, Clef n Pex. I think to make up for that weakness Lucha can use Taunt in its last slot to keep Pex from Baneful-ing as it does so currently in the Cinderace suspect a little bit more often again. It also disrupts any other influence like phazing with Whirlwind and doesnt get as easily inflicted with other status-moves like Thunder Wave or Sleep-inducing ones.Against Clef it has a little bit of a harder time, thats why it usually should come in at the right spot when Clef is weakened beforehand. But in overall Lucha is in a good spot I would say and Magnezone's high usage reflects that in my opinion as it thrives currently to help Rillaboom and its remaining teammates to get rid of the 2 annoying birds Skarm and Corvi for not only Rilla but also Lucha. And having a immediate unburden-boost + a +1 in def is really good against Cinder-Matchups as well and also against both Urshifu-variants. I really think Lucha is in a good spot currently and HO in general is very solid as a whole.
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Well kind of. A supreme dictator (like, in a good way... not a Hitlery way) would ban faster which could get rid of obviously problematic Pokemon like Dugtrio and Magearna without the need for a month long suspect test. In the past this was fine as a generation lasted a few years with a dozen or so at most new Pokemon added to the game.
But now with the DLC model we're looking at 100 or so Pokemon added to the tier every 3-6 months. The old Smogon way has become too slow. It won't "have the same result" if gen 9 is released before Smogon finishes testing everything. Gen 8 has kind of been shit so far and that's mostly due to how the council + community hasn't been able to keep up with the constant stream of broken stuff being added to the meta.
I don't think the solution is a literal supreme ruler but maybe there needs to be a way for the public to just vote on a suspect without waiting for the council or weeks of suspect testing. There was a survey released that showed over 40% supported a Magearna quick ban with an additional 33% in support of a suspect test, and only 20% saying they weren't sure. Only about 6% thought it wasn't broken.
In the past just suspect testing Mag would have been fair but with the DLC model this has become a waste of time. Something new has to be initiated if we are to keep up with DLC. A new method that doesn't rely on the council, or some alternative that gives the council special powers to quick ban if there is overwhelming community support.
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I am glad someone finally pointed this out. The process is way too slow right now for any sort of movement whatsoever (in OU at least). Doing a Quickban on Cinderace, only to retest it two months before new DLC drops is such a waste of everyone's time. People understand that a retest helps to "validate" the decision of the council to quickban, and I guess helps "secure" the integrity of the tier decisionmaking. But to say it wouldn't be "fair" to not re-test is sort of a bunch of baloney. Nobody feels slighted by the decision to quickban Ace. I saw almost NO OPPOSITION here to the quickban - people mentioned and questioned the quickban, but there was absolutely no passionate opposition to Ace being banned and there was definitely nobody here asking for a re-test before DLC. The reason? People didn't care - they moved on, and wanted to look at other things that need attention before DLC drops. This meta is changing at a pace like we've never seen in other gens, and we can't afford to delay things. What is actually "unfair" is making the community go through a suspect re-test, wasting time getting reqs, all for nothing as nobody asked for it and nothing is going to change with the result.
If by some bizarre anomaly the re-test actually yields a NO BAN on Cinderace, I will eat all of my words and video tape it and post it here.
As to how to speed up the process of doing things around here - having everyone vote on things immediately won't work, because the truth is that many people do not have a good grasp on what's healthy in the meta and what isn't, and many people are also very exaggerative on things. Maybe have a specific group of non-council players (with high ladder ranks) be able to formally present problematic mons to the OU council to force a vote on doing a suspect or quickbanning. It would allow for a separate body of players to not make decisions, but at least bring things that the community sees as a problem directly to the council's attention so that they can actually take action on it through a vote. It wouldn't take that much time, and if the council all agrees with each other that it's not a problem then they can simply vote not to suspect or ban it. But at least it would force a vote on the issue so people have some finality on it. It would eliminate the millions of posts of people clamoring for Toxapex suspect because at least there would be a decision made at the time. I don't know how you would work out the details on this, but it's something that you could potentially do.
But, as someone said earlier, Smogon is not any kind of official pokemon site whatsoever and all of the staff that do things here are unpaid volunteers just helping to manage the community. So, while we can try to work together to make the process better, I would suggest that A) people don't personally attack the council because that's not very fair (disagreeing and criticizing decisions is ok, attacking is not), but also B) that the council recognize that they are also community members like all of us, and so everyone's opinion should be treated as important regardless of position here. So, good gaming and have fun. If you stop having fun then you should probably re-evaluate what you're really doing playing games here.
Are we talking about changing the council ou or all the councils? OU it's not the unique tier in PS! and we cannot change all the system. Why I didn't see any attack at the council in the other tier? Why in the other tier it work perfectly? They also had the drastical change of the DLC1 and every month they have huge changes. How they did this job great? Why we are attacking the council? They always had the right decision at the right point. For one moment close your eyes and think: you are a normal guy and you are a member of the council. You know that your decision will change this fantastic tier and game, and if you are wrong... well you'll have a process for your decision. But hey, you can do your decision and hear what's other people think. In this case they can't be angry, you done the right think. But you are attacked because you and others members of the council aren't fast enough? Really? Democracy is a power that we have and don't use this power bad, please
P.s I know, I'm just a boy, but this is my think, and imo it's the most important thing share our thinks in this strange periods for smogon and for all the humanity. And I also know that my english is orrible sorry
P.s I know, I'm just a boy, but this is my think, and imo it's the most important thing share our thinks in this strange periods for smogon and for all the humanity. And I also know that my english is orrible sorry
Because this is the OU subforum. If the current process does or does not work with other tiers it is up to those forums to figure it out. But here we have to focus on OU.
Also your English is great!
I think everyone here means all of the councils. (But not changing the members, just the functions) As for why it seems perfect in other tiers, I don't think people think that's perfect either. The complaining appears to be heppening in OU for the sole reason that it is somehow the cornerstone for the tiers. Honestly if the people mean all of the councils, this is discussion that should be in PR and not here.
Anyone else notice how Finch was saying at first that community input matters and that a survey will be released after OLT which will include both tournament and ladder players? About how that survey will be used to gauge community consensus? Well it seems like that went the window. Now he wants to suspect Urshifu after the Cinderace retest and leave Toxapex and Clefable untouched because apparently, Urshifu is now the "bigger issue"?
Who decided that Urshifu was the bigger issue? I see much more posts in this thread calling for action against Toxapex and Clefable. Heck, Toxapex and Clefable has been sitting on the S rank for literally eons while Urshifu still haven't been able to break past A+. Is it the council member's individual opinion that Urshifu is the bigger problem? Why should the council's individual opinions take precedence over community opinion?
Who decided that Urshifu was the bigger issue? I see much more posts in this thread calling for action against Toxapex and Clefable. Heck, Toxapex and Clefable has been sitting on the S rank for literally eons while Urshifu still haven't been able to break past A+. Is it the council member's individual opinion that Urshifu is the bigger problem? Why should the council's individual opinions take precedence over community opinion?
Dracovish was A+ too, finchinator says its opinion, you say "He wants" finch it's not the council man
First of all, problematic mons that are suspect/ban-worthy don't need to be S rank in order to be tested, they just need to pose a big enough threat in the tier to prove that they are too much to handle or overwhelming. In most cases, offensive mons that get tested will be around the A+ or S ranks, with the A+ ones having a few weaknesses that prevent them from being outright broken.
OLT is still going on and the metagame is continuing to evolve, as can be seen in Snake and OLT with Amoonguss and even Tangrowth cutting into Toxapex's usage quite a bit. Is Toxapex still a problem? Yes. Is it the only problem? No. Finch was sharing his own personal opinion at the time rather than speaking for the entire council, and he will usually mention this in his posts. If one person on the council feels strongly about one mon, then what's the problem? That individual will ultimately need to discuss it with the other councilmen before a decision is made, so it's not like their opinion is the only one that matters.
I'm not even on the council, and I ran into this issue before when I shared my opinion about Urshifu for the purpose of generating discussion on it because I thought it was starting to feel like too much. What did I get instead? A few good posts and a bunch of people mad at me for not posting about Toxapex instead. Personally I felt like I gained a reason to not post here on that day, and I think it's extremely counterproductive to do that to the only councilmen (Finch) that posts anything here. I already said this once, but unfortunately it looks like we're still having the same issues of everyone wanting to use this thread to complain about the council. Seeing as how a one day lock on this thread didn't change anything, we'll be keeping it locked for a slightly longer period of time.
Have a good weekend, and good luck to those who plan on getting reqs for the Cinderace test.
Now that the Cinderace test is over, we will reopen this thread. Let's try and stay on topic this time. In other news, there is a direct covering the crown tundra dlc that is set to air in about 18 hours. Usage stats should come later this week, so I'll do the usual post once they arrive.
Have a good day.
Have a good day.
First off, I want to say that this post and every other opinion I share in this thread is only my personal opinion. It is not the opinion of the entire SS OU Council and if you would like to discuss anything with the council, do not hesitate to message us at any point in time here. I believe that everyone's voice matters so long as they are informed and considerate going into any dialogue about the metagame. Of course, this is just the metagame discussion thread, so I trust people to use the appropriate channels for sharing their ideas moving forward to avoid a repeat of prior issues.
Because of my believe that sharing one's opinion on the metagame is important, I like using my voice as an active player and contributor to share my opinion with the general public. If I say that I believe x Pokemon should be suspected or banned, it does not mean that everyone else has to feel this way in general or on the OU Council. I hope this is abundantly clear moving forward as it seems some people took my opinion as the law when that is very much not the case. I encourage people to share their opinions regardless of if they are the same as my own or not.
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With this said, I personally believe two Pokemon warrant discussion right now: Urshifu and Toxapex. I understand complaints about Clefable, but I view its surge in usage as a product of other more problematic Pokemon and I also do not see it as remotely broken. Of course, others are entitled to feel differently, but I am just sharing my personal thoughts. Clefable, in my opinion, is a necessary evil as it currently stands.
, on the other hand, strikes me as a very restricting and broken presence in the tier right now. You can count the checks to Urshifu on one hand: Clefable, Weezing-Galar, and Primarina are the primary ones, but you can make a case for Togekiss or Azumarill I suppose. There are also some cores that handle specific Urshifu such as Toxapex or Amoonguss paired with a durable Wicked Blow resist, but these cores are going to struggle with Bulk Up variants, which are increasingly common.
I do believe that Choice Band Urshifu is the most consistently encountered set, but I think that Bulk Up compliments it nicely and the overlap between the two limits teambuilding to using a defensive Fairy type, which ends up as Clefable a vast majority of the time. Many people dislike how teambuilding is limited as much as it is, citing bulky-offense's drop in usage as an example of less-than-ideal metagame states. I do not necessarily disagree with this, but I do disagree when people extend this logic to wanting to ban Pokemon like Clefable or Toxapex as a solution (I do not mind the prospect of banning Toxapex, but this is not the right reasoning -- more on this later). Pokemon like Urshifu are the culprits of this. They force specific defensive structures if you wish to find any sense of consistency in this metagame. Personally, I do not view an SS OU where Clefable (or Weezing-Galar, which is comfortably a UU Pokemon as it stands) is forced on to such a large amount of builds as an ideal one.
In my personal opinion, it would be proper to proceed with an Urshifu suspect test in the near future. I believe it is the most banworthy Pokemon in the metagame currently and while it is an offensive option that does not check many things, it being prominent in the metagame arguably holds back other offensive options from thriving and teambuilding conventions from developing more than any defensive presence in the metagame.
As for
, I believe it is still on the radar, but I am less sold than I was during OLT. Toxapex, unlike Urshifu, is a very reactionary Pokemon. Sure, Urshifu would stink in a metagame where every team had multiple Fairy types and such, but barring an extreme like this, it is going to naturally be one of the best presences in the tier due to sheer strength and offensive presence arguably. As for Toxapex, it is subject to seeing great increases in usage and effectiveness if the Pokemon that are circulating can abuse it or some decreases in usage and effectiveness if the metagame shifts towards adapting to it (i.e: last generation, we saw less Toxapex when things like Gliscor and Mega Alakazam rose. This generation, we saw more Toxapex when things like Dracovish and CM + Flamethrower Clefable rose). This does not mean it is not something to suspect or ban as defensive Pokemon can absolutely be suspected and/or banned, in my opinion. However, Toxapex's usage is largely dependent (moreso than things like Urshifu) on its surroundings due to it being used predominantly as a countermeasure and utility presence. And one can argue that it saw a peak in effectiveness during OLT and the metagame has reacted to it since then. Let's go into more detail on this.
The metagame during OLT was pretty poor, in my personal opinion. The extremes dominated, which meant things like Toxapex thrived at previously unprecedented levels. Toxapex was approaching staple status on stallier teams or even balances focused on longevity due to it soft checking a number of prominent Pokemon, having the ability to force item displacement or status (Knock Off, Scald, and Toxic/Toxic Spikes/Baneful Bunker depending on its set), and having Regenerator. Moreover, with the ability to force status/item displacement and having Haze to shut-down lots of set-up sweepers, it also thrived against the opposing extreme of hyper offense, be it opposing weather builds as it slowed their momentum or opposing hyper offense as it oftentimes thwarted sweeping attempts. I personally was very in favor of looking into Toxapex during this state of the metagame and this was what prompted my bringing it up to begin with.
Since this point in time, I feel like the metagame has shifted drastically. Balances have become the most common archetype once more and these balances have integrated a lot of things that are able to minimize the effectiveness of Toxapex, especially when compared to previous points. For example, Spikes, Calm Mind + Thunder(bolt) Clefable, Reuniclus, Kyurem, Magnezone, and Hatterene have all surfaced on balance teams more than ever before. What do they all have in common? Abusing the presence of Toxapex, which is no coincidence whatsoever. Additionally, there has also been a surge in Amoonguss usage lately, which has cut Toxapex usage significantly. Do I believe that usage is the sole decider of a suspect/how broken a Pokemon is? Nope, not at all, but it is no coincidence that this is happening alongside the aforementioned trends either.
Any developing metagame -- which this metagame certainly is -- will go through waves of changes and then reactions to these changes. Every action has a consequence and every status quo is formed to be shifted in the near future when it comes to developing metagames. We have seen dozens of metagame shifts over the course of this generation and I imagine we will see dozens more. I believe Toxapex was only overly restrictive during a 1-2 month period throughout July and August. I do believe it warranted suspect attention then and honestly I do not oppose a suspect now as this can absolutely be the case again, but seeing how well people prepare for it right now makes it far less of a priority to me, especially given how pressing the matter of Urshifu is to me.
To sum it up: I am in favor of looking into both Urshifu and Toxapex, but I view Urshifu as more pressing and problematic. I also believe that Urshifu's restrictions on teambuilding will open things up for other offensive threats far more than it will shift the metagame towards a more defensive state.
Because of my believe that sharing one's opinion on the metagame is important, I like using my voice as an active player and contributor to share my opinion with the general public. If I say that I believe x Pokemon should be suspected or banned, it does not mean that everyone else has to feel this way in general or on the OU Council. I hope this is abundantly clear moving forward as it seems some people took my opinion as the law when that is very much not the case. I encourage people to share their opinions regardless of if they are the same as my own or not.
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With this said, I personally believe two Pokemon warrant discussion right now: Urshifu and Toxapex. I understand complaints about Clefable, but I view its surge in usage as a product of other more problematic Pokemon and I also do not see it as remotely broken. Of course, others are entitled to feel differently, but I am just sharing my personal thoughts. Clefable, in my opinion, is a necessary evil as it currently stands.
, on the other hand, strikes me as a very restricting and broken presence in the tier right now. You can count the checks to Urshifu on one hand: Clefable, Weezing-Galar, and Primarina are the primary ones, but you can make a case for Togekiss or Azumarill I suppose. There are also some cores that handle specific Urshifu such as Toxapex or Amoonguss paired with a durable Wicked Blow resist, but these cores are going to struggle with Bulk Up variants, which are increasingly common.I do believe that Choice Band Urshifu is the most consistently encountered set, but I think that Bulk Up compliments it nicely and the overlap between the two limits teambuilding to using a defensive Fairy type, which ends up as Clefable a vast majority of the time. Many people dislike how teambuilding is limited as much as it is, citing bulky-offense's drop in usage as an example of less-than-ideal metagame states. I do not necessarily disagree with this, but I do disagree when people extend this logic to wanting to ban Pokemon like Clefable or Toxapex as a solution (I do not mind the prospect of banning Toxapex, but this is not the right reasoning -- more on this later). Pokemon like Urshifu are the culprits of this. They force specific defensive structures if you wish to find any sense of consistency in this metagame. Personally, I do not view an SS OU where Clefable (or Weezing-Galar, which is comfortably a UU Pokemon as it stands) is forced on to such a large amount of builds as an ideal one.
In my personal opinion, it would be proper to proceed with an Urshifu suspect test in the near future. I believe it is the most banworthy Pokemon in the metagame currently and while it is an offensive option that does not check many things, it being prominent in the metagame arguably holds back other offensive options from thriving and teambuilding conventions from developing more than any defensive presence in the metagame.
As for
, I believe it is still on the radar, but I am less sold than I was during OLT. Toxapex, unlike Urshifu, is a very reactionary Pokemon. Sure, Urshifu would stink in a metagame where every team had multiple Fairy types and such, but barring an extreme like this, it is going to naturally be one of the best presences in the tier due to sheer strength and offensive presence arguably. As for Toxapex, it is subject to seeing great increases in usage and effectiveness if the Pokemon that are circulating can abuse it or some decreases in usage and effectiveness if the metagame shifts towards adapting to it (i.e: last generation, we saw less Toxapex when things like Gliscor and Mega Alakazam rose. This generation, we saw more Toxapex when things like Dracovish and CM + Flamethrower Clefable rose). This does not mean it is not something to suspect or ban as defensive Pokemon can absolutely be suspected and/or banned, in my opinion. However, Toxapex's usage is largely dependent (moreso than things like Urshifu) on its surroundings due to it being used predominantly as a countermeasure and utility presence. And one can argue that it saw a peak in effectiveness during OLT and the metagame has reacted to it since then. Let's go into more detail on this.The metagame during OLT was pretty poor, in my personal opinion. The extremes dominated, which meant things like Toxapex thrived at previously unprecedented levels. Toxapex was approaching staple status on stallier teams or even balances focused on longevity due to it soft checking a number of prominent Pokemon, having the ability to force item displacement or status (Knock Off, Scald, and Toxic/Toxic Spikes/Baneful Bunker depending on its set), and having Regenerator. Moreover, with the ability to force status/item displacement and having Haze to shut-down lots of set-up sweepers, it also thrived against the opposing extreme of hyper offense, be it opposing weather builds as it slowed their momentum or opposing hyper offense as it oftentimes thwarted sweeping attempts. I personally was very in favor of looking into Toxapex during this state of the metagame and this was what prompted my bringing it up to begin with.
Since this point in time, I feel like the metagame has shifted drastically. Balances have become the most common archetype once more and these balances have integrated a lot of things that are able to minimize the effectiveness of Toxapex, especially when compared to previous points. For example, Spikes, Calm Mind + Thunder(bolt) Clefable, Reuniclus, Kyurem, Magnezone, and Hatterene have all surfaced on balance teams more than ever before. What do they all have in common? Abusing the presence of Toxapex, which is no coincidence whatsoever. Additionally, there has also been a surge in Amoonguss usage lately, which has cut Toxapex usage significantly. Do I believe that usage is the sole decider of a suspect/how broken a Pokemon is? Nope, not at all, but it is no coincidence that this is happening alongside the aforementioned trends either.
Any developing metagame -- which this metagame certainly is -- will go through waves of changes and then reactions to these changes. Every action has a consequence and every status quo is formed to be shifted in the near future when it comes to developing metagames. We have seen dozens of metagame shifts over the course of this generation and I imagine we will see dozens more. I believe Toxapex was only overly restrictive during a 1-2 month period throughout July and August. I do believe it warranted suspect attention then and honestly I do not oppose a suspect now as this can absolutely be the case again, but seeing how well people prepare for it right now makes it far less of a priority to me, especially given how pressing the matter of Urshifu is to me.
To sum it up: I am in favor of looking into both Urshifu and Toxapex, but I view Urshifu as more pressing and problematic. I also believe that Urshifu's restrictions on teambuilding will open things up for other offensive threats far more than it will shift the metagame towards a more defensive state.
Throwing my support behind a suspect test for Urshifu over anything else. Wicked Blow is just too good with its 100% crit rate, and its best checks (Clefable, Galar Weezing, Togekiss) are swiftly 2HKO'd by Banded Iron Head, or pivoted out on with U-turn. While Clefable is naturally good in its own right, its become somewhat of a necessity thanks to Urshifu. While Urshifu is commonly complained about when using stall or balance, I think its just as effective against offense, and makes certain play-styles such as Screens Offense pretty un-viable. Its underrated bulk, power, and access to Sucker Punch make it very tough to switch into and OHKO / revenge kill, meaning it usually takes 2 Pokemon against offense (assuming it even makes that trade, could just come in later with the same problem).
If I had to decide now, I'd vote ban Urshifu, but I'm welcome to hear opposing arguments. Happy posting everyone, please remember to be civil
If I had to decide now, I'd vote ban Urshifu, but I'm welcome to hear opposing arguments. Happy posting everyone, please remember to be civil
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I think Toxapex is still more restrictive than Urshifu, but they are both pretty on par with how restrictive and problematic they can be, on separate extremes. Here is where I have the biggest issue though:
Both Toxapex and Urshifu can modestly check each other, and also modestly pressure each other. A max defense Toxapex can withstand a Wicked Blow (two if it's not banded) and go for Scald burn chance, then switch out to recover. Meanwhile, if the Toxapex is chipped, an Urshifu can significantly pressure it enough to force it out and, if predicted correctly, go for an Iron Head on any of the more reliable Urshifu checks.
Furthermore, the issue is expanded beyond simply an Urshifu v Toxapex matchup. Toxapex helps anchor a stall team unlike anything else in the tier, while Urshifu helps break stall unlike anything else in the tier. I do sincerely think that if you remove either of the two from the tier, the other is going to become out of hand. For example, if you remove Urshifu, now a Toxapex anchored stall team can suffocate almost any team in the metagame. All of its checks with Urshifu gone are easy to switch into (Psychic/Electric have plenty of immunities/resist), all the while Toxapex can knock off/burn near everything to debilitate the entire team. On the other side, if you ban Toxapex, now Urshifu has one less wall to worry about. While teams will still use Clefable etc. to check it, the fact that Toxapex is gone makes it much easier to try for an Iron Head on a predicted switch. Besidese Toxapex, there are not a lot of things that can eat both an Iron Head on a switch, take chip damage, and still eat a CC/Wicked Blow afterwards.
So, I think either you suspect neither of these or you suspect both at the same time. We're running out of time before DLC drops anyways.
Both Toxapex and Urshifu can modestly check each other, and also modestly pressure each other. A max defense Toxapex can withstand a Wicked Blow (two if it's not banded) and go for Scald burn chance, then switch out to recover. Meanwhile, if the Toxapex is chipped, an Urshifu can significantly pressure it enough to force it out and, if predicted correctly, go for an Iron Head on any of the more reliable Urshifu checks.
Furthermore, the issue is expanded beyond simply an Urshifu v Toxapex matchup. Toxapex helps anchor a stall team unlike anything else in the tier, while Urshifu helps break stall unlike anything else in the tier. I do sincerely think that if you remove either of the two from the tier, the other is going to become out of hand. For example, if you remove Urshifu, now a Toxapex anchored stall team can suffocate almost any team in the metagame. All of its checks with Urshifu gone are easy to switch into (Psychic/Electric have plenty of immunities/resist), all the while Toxapex can knock off/burn near everything to debilitate the entire team. On the other side, if you ban Toxapex, now Urshifu has one less wall to worry about. While teams will still use Clefable etc. to check it, the fact that Toxapex is gone makes it much easier to try for an Iron Head on a predicted switch. Besidese Toxapex, there are not a lot of things that can eat both an Iron Head on a switch, take chip damage, and still eat a CC/Wicked Blow afterwards.
So, I think either you suspect neither of these or you suspect both at the same time. We're running out of time before DLC drops anyways.
I think Urshifu is really oppressive at the stage of teambuilding already since it basically forces you to run particular mons (specific core) and the array of these cores isnt particular wide. The reason why Clefable and Toxapex see so much usage is because of Urshifu and I think Urshifu is unhealthy for the metagame as it forces a certain way of building teams. Urshifu has also the trait to always chip things down with U-turn when it fears that a check might switch into it. Lastly the newfound Bulk Up-set is a thing on its own, as Urshifu can run Sucker Punch, which furthers its breaking potential. In my opinion Urshifu is suspect worthy as it alone makes other pokemon thrive in usage like Toxapex and especially Clefable with the defensive set. well my opinion on Toxapex is that it is less unhealthy than Urshifu but still in my eyes concerning for the metagame development as the combination of an impressive Bulk, Regenerator and Recovery in form of Black Sludge and Recover alongside Scald and Knock Off is really good if not outstanding. Toxapex is in a league of its own, when it comes to a defensive pokemon. I really think we should keep an eye on Toxapex. As to why I think I would not be opposed to a Toxapex-suspect is in a Post I made in the past.
Hi, talking about Urshifu since its been mentioned, and this Pokemon has been on my mind for a while.
Urshifu
I 100% agree with acting on Urshifu in some way. The Pokemon in my eyes in not only broken, but also a pretty detrimental presence in teambuilding. I've always thought that Urshifu was a negative presence overall and needed to be gone and that was with its Choice Band set, but I let that slide because while Urshifu had always had a horrible impact in teambuilding by requiring a Clefable on almost every single team, Physically defensive Clefable mind you, not Specially defensive, primarily to check Urshifu reliably, I wanted to see how the metagame adapted to it, because the metagame adapted to Toxapex in OLT with Pokemon like Hatterene and Toxtricity resurging in viability.
But in Urshifu's case? Nah not at all, it simply only got harder to deal with because Bulk Up LO is just as powerful as Choice Band, except that you're not Choice Locked into a move unlike using CB, and with that set emerging, Urshifu went from unhealthy territory to broken and unhealthy territory. I feel Urshifu isn't just unhealthy now, I feel its simply far too good for the metagame to handle with the lack of consistent counterplay to it overall, especially defensively, but even offensively can be a struggle because of Sucker Punch pretty much beating the offensive counterplay that it has, notably Zeraora and Dragapult, especially with Bulk Up because it can sometimes just snowball.
And I know there are going to be some people who will still feel that Urshifu is still not oppressive, so to further add to the pro-ban side, I got a few replays in Snake Draft to show Urshifu being stupid as soon as it gets on the field.
Storm Zone vs Eo - here Storm Zone doesn't really have a good Dark resist on his team, he's pretty much relying on Hydreigon as his Dark resist, which pretty much got bopped by Wicked Blow at 57% and what I am trying to show is what can happen without a bulky Dark resist like Galarian Weezing or Clefable, because everytime Eo got a free switch in with his Urshifu, it pretty much always got a 2HKO or a kill when it got in, going to show its lack of defensive counterplay.
Ewin vs Kebab mlml - this is a replay that Urshifu lost in yeah, but even with a pretty horrible matchup it still ended up getting 2 kills which is incredible. There's a Zeraora, a Conk and a Clefable on Ewin's team, how is Urshifu ever making progress against it? But with enough chip, Urshifu is able to easily beat the Primarina from where it was as well as the Zeraora with a Sucker Punch.
frisoeva vs Ewin - another example of it just consistently threatening the opponent when it gets in, frisoeva's Clefable is already heavily pressured by Magnezone and his team is bulky to where Urshifu can simply threaten something with a kill, especially considering that Ewin's Urshifu is Iron Head so frisoeva's Clefable is not safe whatsoever. An unfortunate crit happens that muscled past his Clef and from there Wicked Blow was a free move to click.
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So yeah I feel Urshifu is easily the most banworthy Pokemon right now and its the negative presence in both teambuilding and in practice is a detrimental to the metagame.
I 100% agree with acting on Urshifu in some way. The Pokemon in my eyes in not only broken, but also a pretty detrimental presence in teambuilding. I've always thought that Urshifu was a negative presence overall and needed to be gone and that was with its Choice Band set, but I let that slide because while Urshifu had always had a horrible impact in teambuilding by requiring a Clefable on almost every single team, Physically defensive Clefable mind you, not Specially defensive, primarily to check Urshifu reliably, I wanted to see how the metagame adapted to it, because the metagame adapted to Toxapex in OLT with Pokemon like Hatterene and Toxtricity resurging in viability.
But in Urshifu's case? Nah not at all, it simply only got harder to deal with because Bulk Up LO is just as powerful as Choice Band, except that you're not Choice Locked into a move unlike using CB, and with that set emerging, Urshifu went from unhealthy territory to broken and unhealthy territory. I feel Urshifu isn't just unhealthy now, I feel its simply far too good for the metagame to handle with the lack of consistent counterplay to it overall, especially defensively, but even offensively can be a struggle because of Sucker Punch pretty much beating the offensive counterplay that it has, notably Zeraora and Dragapult, especially with Bulk Up because it can sometimes just snowball.
And I know there are going to be some people who will still feel that Urshifu is still not oppressive, so to further add to the pro-ban side, I got a few replays in Snake Draft to show Urshifu being stupid as soon as it gets on the field.
Storm Zone vs Eo - here Storm Zone doesn't really have a good Dark resist on his team, he's pretty much relying on Hydreigon as his Dark resist, which pretty much got bopped by Wicked Blow at 57% and what I am trying to show is what can happen without a bulky Dark resist like Galarian Weezing or Clefable, because everytime Eo got a free switch in with his Urshifu, it pretty much always got a 2HKO or a kill when it got in, going to show its lack of defensive counterplay.
Ewin vs Kebab mlml - this is a replay that Urshifu lost in yeah, but even with a pretty horrible matchup it still ended up getting 2 kills which is incredible. There's a Zeraora, a Conk and a Clefable on Ewin's team, how is Urshifu ever making progress against it? But with enough chip, Urshifu is able to easily beat the Primarina from where it was as well as the Zeraora with a Sucker Punch.
frisoeva vs Ewin - another example of it just consistently threatening the opponent when it gets in, frisoeva's Clefable is already heavily pressured by Magnezone and his team is bulky to where Urshifu can simply threaten something with a kill, especially considering that Ewin's Urshifu is Iron Head so frisoeva's Clefable is not safe whatsoever. An unfortunate crit happens that muscled past his Clef and from there Wicked Blow was a free move to click.
_ _ _
So yeah I feel Urshifu is easily the most banworthy Pokemon right now and its the negative presence in both teambuilding and in practice is a detrimental to the metagame.
Gonna throw in my 2 cents since
is being discussed.
While I believe Urshifu-S is clearly a determent in teambuilding, I believe Toxapex should be held under the same circumstances but from a defensive standpoint.
Why? It punishes offensive play with very little consequence, and the rewards far exceed the risks. To say it invalidates offense is a bit of a stretch, but it has a well-known toolbox that it excessively takes advantage of each game. You essentially have to play the long game against it unless you wanna take an unnecessary risk that might backfire and you lose cuz of that one play.
-Wanna set up with a sweeper against it? Haze shuts that down, and even if you wanna play the long game with it, it has the PP to potentially outlast you (no pun intended).
-Wanna bring in a specific offensive counter against it? You risk the Scald or Toxic/Baneful Bunker status and you may have lost you potential wincon that breaks the rest of the team as well.
-You got an item you wanna keep for the long game? That's cute, Knock Off will take care of that.
-Close to dying? No worries, Regenerator + Recover + Black Sludge relieves tremendous pressure of teams that rely on its defensive backbone. Its common defensive teammates can also relieve itself from any trouble it might possess solely based on covering type weaknesses.
Another interesting trend in comparison to last gen is the prevalence of Taunt. There is a possibility that it might have something to do with Trick being more accessible this gen, which can put defensive backbones to a halt if not played correctly. Off the top of my head, the common Taunt users at the time of this post are Hawlucha, Mandibuzz, defensive Kommo-O, and Dual Screens Grimmsnarl. While it does have a substantial impact on Pex, presence of Taunt in the metagame isn't necessarily relevant compared to last gen and the mons I mention run the risk of losing items or status depending on how aggressively players want to go against it. I think DLC2 will patch that issue up with Fini, Heatran, and Gliscor (I believe, iirc from datamine) return. But for now, I think Toxapex is somewhat unhealthy in this metagame, where again, there are limited options to choose from.
is being discussed.While I believe Urshifu-S is clearly a determent in teambuilding, I believe Toxapex should be held under the same circumstances but from a defensive standpoint.
Why? It punishes offensive play with very little consequence, and the rewards far exceed the risks. To say it invalidates offense is a bit of a stretch, but it has a well-known toolbox that it excessively takes advantage of each game. You essentially have to play the long game against it unless you wanna take an unnecessary risk that might backfire and you lose cuz of that one play.
-Wanna set up with a sweeper against it? Haze shuts that down, and even if you wanna play the long game with it, it has the PP to potentially outlast you (no pun intended).
-Wanna bring in a specific offensive counter against it? You risk the Scald or Toxic/Baneful Bunker status and you may have lost you potential wincon that breaks the rest of the team as well.
-You got an item you wanna keep for the long game? That's cute, Knock Off will take care of that.
-Close to dying? No worries, Regenerator + Recover + Black Sludge relieves tremendous pressure of teams that rely on its defensive backbone. Its common defensive teammates can also relieve itself from any trouble it might possess solely based on covering type weaknesses.
Another interesting trend in comparison to last gen is the prevalence of Taunt. There is a possibility that it might have something to do with Trick being more accessible this gen, which can put defensive backbones to a halt if not played correctly. Off the top of my head, the common Taunt users at the time of this post are Hawlucha, Mandibuzz, defensive Kommo-O, and Dual Screens Grimmsnarl. While it does have a substantial impact on Pex, presence of Taunt in the metagame isn't necessarily relevant compared to last gen and the mons I mention run the risk of losing items or status depending on how aggressively players want to go against it. I think DLC2 will patch that issue up with Fini, Heatran, and Gliscor (I believe, iirc from datamine) return. But for now, I think Toxapex is somewhat unhealthy in this metagame, where again, there are limited options to choose from.
Depending on if we have enough time to do a suspect as the release date is released tomorrow, I think it’s a great opportunity to do a community survey on what is more problematic: Urshifu or Pex? Both have equal suspect worthiness in my eyes, so I think a community poll would be a great way to decide which mon should have action taken on. However, there is the possibly that we might get DLC 2 in 2-3 weeks considering the trailer for isle of armor dropped 2-3 weeks before, so it could make sense if mid-October was the release date. Overall, if there is still time for a suspect test, we should do a community survey to determine whether we should suspect pex or urshifu
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