Yes but Regieleki is too good on spikes teams and can lure Lando in really well. Aswell as having rapid spin
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Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Every Mon becomes better with Spikes support. Koko and Zeraora can lure Lando too without being almost useless with it around. Same for Pult, Tran, Kartana (sort of), Blaziken, etc. All those can make progress faster than Regieleki can and are way less match-up reliant.
While not a good Mon himself, Excadrill can also Spin while luring Lando, and it can do much more, such as put Rocks, switch into Toxic, check Lele and Clef and completely wall Koko and Nihilego.
Will give people 24-36 hours to ask questions about the rises, drops, or lack thereof as per normal. I will respond to everyone I can, but it may take some time as I do work.
Please do not ask questions that have already been asked -- it takes a very short period of time to look and it wastes my time to repeat myself/refer people to prior responses. Please do not use this as a chance to complain -- it takes me two clicks to delete your post.
Rises:
Drops:
from A to A+
from A to A+
from A- to A
from A- to A
from B+ to A-
from B to B+
from B to B+
from B to B+
from B to B+
from B to B+
from B to B+
from UR to B
from C+ to B-
from C+ to B-
from UR to C-
from UR to C-
Ask away
from S- to A+
from A+ to A
from A+ to A
from A to A-
from A to A-
from B+ to B
from B to B-
from B- to C+
from B- to C+
from B- to C+
from C+ to C
from C+ to C
from C+ to C
from C to C-
from C- to UR
from C- to UR
how does primarina
find herself a niche in a metagame with much better water and fairy types? and what’s with the corviknight 
and ferrothorn 
drops? is there a rise of fire types in the current metagame?also why aren’t slowbro
and chomp 
in S-? slowbro is a phenomenal defensive pivot and support mon who exerts tons of offensive pressure with futureport, and garchomp is a terrifying wallbreaker made even more potent with scale shot. with such huge upsides and only minor downsides, that does seem worthy of being S- imo
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Why didn't Volcarona drop to A-?
I can probably answer my own question, seeing as Ninetales-A was cited as facilitating strong breakers in an offensive meta while also being the single most effective setter of Hail teams, which directly impacts Volcarona because it is very scary behind Screens. But even then it is kinda mediocre in practice, doesn't fit on most teams and you really have to clear a way for it to sweep which can pressure team structures built around it to inherently have some big flaws and be kinda matchup fishy. Of course, the meta being so offensively divided allows it to drive the stake in some matchups, but that can be said about other scary breakers, many of which don't require as much dedicated support (and the fact that most teams want more than one offensive pairing in a team, due to how stacked matchups become).
Why didn't Scizor drop to B-?
I can understand a portion of why it wouldn't drop, seeing as its has some niche with on HO with a SD set when supported by Screens setters (i.e. Ninetales-A, which I'm sure is part of the reason why you could potentially justify it not dropping) but that's as far as it goes. Its defensive sets are pretty bad, comparable only to a Walmart Corviknight. Even when it has that niche on HO, I still don't see many real reasons for it to be anywhere but B- and below, because there are still a ton of roadblocks for it.
Why didn't Zapdos rise to A+?
Especially as of recently, Zapdos has made a significant impact on the metagame. Its defensive sets offer it a lot of utility that never fails to be valuable, and its prized STAB Hurricane makes more offensively inclined sets a tool for breaking teams. Its ability to punish physical contact moves that risk activating Static makes it a great way to passively dismantle things, while Pressure (albeit rare) allows it to annoy checks and stall teams. Specifically, it performs well against the common balance / BO style teams, though its performance against Weather, offense, and Screens HO is varying. I can still see reasons why it would remain in A, but it's one I thought was worth mentioning because I feel it teeters the A+ line.
[EDIT]
Thinking a little more about Zapdos, by team structure I can understand why it wouldn't deserve the rise. It is very splashable, and while impactful, is nowhere near as significant by influence. Though, whether it's there or not, I still think Volcarona is significantly less notable and deserves to be reinspected. Hopefully we'll have council reasoning soon for some of these questions?
To be clear, none of these are arguments I would just like questions answered if possible.
I can probably answer my own question, seeing as Ninetales-A was cited as facilitating strong breakers in an offensive meta while also being the single most effective setter of Hail teams, which directly impacts Volcarona because it is very scary behind Screens. But even then it is kinda mediocre in practice, doesn't fit on most teams and you really have to clear a way for it to sweep which can pressure team structures built around it to inherently have some big flaws and be kinda matchup fishy. Of course, the meta being so offensively divided allows it to drive the stake in some matchups, but that can be said about other scary breakers, many of which don't require as much dedicated support (and the fact that most teams want more than one offensive pairing in a team, due to how stacked matchups become).
Why didn't Scizor drop to B-?
I can understand a portion of why it wouldn't drop, seeing as its has some niche with on HO with a SD set when supported by Screens setters (i.e. Ninetales-A, which I'm sure is part of the reason why you could potentially justify it not dropping) but that's as far as it goes. Its defensive sets are pretty bad, comparable only to a Walmart Corviknight. Even when it has that niche on HO, I still don't see many real reasons for it to be anywhere but B- and below, because there are still a ton of roadblocks for it.
Why didn't Zapdos rise to A+?
Especially as of recently, Zapdos has made a significant impact on the metagame. Its defensive sets offer it a lot of utility that never fails to be valuable, and its prized STAB Hurricane makes more offensively inclined sets a tool for breaking teams. Its ability to punish physical contact moves that risk activating Static makes it a great way to passively dismantle things, while Pressure (albeit rare) allows it to annoy checks and stall teams. Specifically, it performs well against the common balance / BO style teams, though its performance against Weather, offense, and Screens HO is varying. I can still see reasons why it would remain in A, but it's one I thought was worth mentioning because I feel it teeters the A+ line.
[EDIT]
Thinking a little more about Zapdos, by team structure I can understand why it wouldn't deserve the rise. It is very splashable, and while impactful, is nowhere near as significant by influence. Though, whether it's there or not, I still think Volcarona is significantly less notable and deserves to be reinspected. Hopefully we'll have council reasoning soon for some of these questions?
To be clear, none of these are arguments I would just like questions answered if possible.
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Why did toxtricity drop?
Yes, it doesn't appreciate lando but it is one of the most comically powerful special attackers in the tier
Why did Hippowdon drop but Gastrodon rise?
I find that hippo has more utility on more offensive team structures due to setting up a hazard as opposed to gastrodon which kinda just sits there
Yes, it doesn't appreciate lando but it is one of the most comically powerful special attackers in the tier
Why did Hippowdon drop but Gastrodon rise?
I find that hippo has more utility on more offensive team structures due to setting up a hazard as opposed to gastrodon which kinda just sits there
I think this is an unfair comparison, for a few reasons.
1) ground types in the meta almost all have little to no means of recovery (lando and chomp in particular), and even for the ones that do
2) weavile is arguably the best mon in the tier right now, and it gives ground types a very bad time, and
3) regidrago doesn't get rapid spin, meaning that eleki has usage even without screens and while there's a ground type up, and also
4) Drago is bulky, but doesn't actually want to take hits because it decreases the power of its strong STAB, so eleki's unmatched speed is a much better standout stat
Of course you know all this, and that's why you're not calling for eleki to be unranked. But my point is that eleki (even if we're assuming that screens eleki is totally outclassed and has no niche) is its own beast with its own (any) role in the meta.
Well, yes, Regieleki is better than Regidrago because of what you say. However, that is already reflected by it being C+. B- (the next Tier) has these Mons: Blaziken, Celesteela, Hippowdon, Reuniclus, Seismitoad and Thundurus-T. Maybe Reuniclus is worse than Eleki, but all of the other ones are way more consistent and need much less support to work. So, still no reasons (in my opinion) to rise it, C+ is a good place for it.
I can try to answer this. Celesteela has been becoming much more apparent as a staple of hyper offense teams for quite a while due to its good offensive capabilities combined with its excellent defensive typing. It’s also seen some great success in the WCOP qualifiers.
What BT89 said, Celesteela compresses a ground immunity, steel type, and scarf tapu lele/ scarf kartana check in one slot which are all very useful for HO as well as the ability to snowball with Beast Boost after Automize and meteor beam
I agree with or am ambivalent about basically everything except this. I really like using Nidoking but it struggles a lot in match ups against offense which is becoming arguably the best way to maintain momentum against the plethora of offensive threats in this tier that are incredibly difficult to prep for without going full fat (which Nidoking tears apart fwiw). Things that aren't OHKOed really give it a lot of trouble because even neutral hits can threaten to kill it. The matchup against Koko is great at least other than it being annoyed by Nature's Madness which is another reason why its recent rise to B+ was a long time coming. Don't think it's really caught on enough or become enough of a staple like Volcanion to reach the A ranks but I'm not ruling it out at all tbh, just probably not right now
I'll probably do more writing about why I think Lele and Zapdos are A+ mons after the shifts have had some time to marinate and I play with them and analyze more games with them, cause I think they're the moment right now :P
What makes Slowking a more reliable answer to Heatran than it was before? I recall that Heatran usually was able to win the 1v1 due to Toxic + Magma Storm damage. Is this a result of other sets like Offensive Stealth Rock Heatran seeing a rise in usage, which Slowking is able to more effectively handle (not stating this as a fact, just wondering if its a factor in making Slowking a more reliable answer to Heatran)?
See my response to Mimikyu Starduest and 658Greninja.
Nobody really brought it up, but it at least can U-turn, is not 4x weak to SR, and functions as more of a revenge killer with Scarf. Closer call, maybe we'll vote on it next time.
Not enough support, but I can see it being voted on again.
Shuckle provides SR, Encore, etc. -- easier to compress roles on these teams.
Automize sets seeing more usage on HO, which makes sense as it provides some nice resistances and a Ground immunity for those teams.
See my response to Red Raven for the former, see my response to Moyoshi, and see my second response to Red Raven for the latter.
See my response to HydreigonTheChild.
See my response to Esca D. Sulphate.
See my response to Moyashi.
Finally a unique question! It still checks Tapu Lele and SD Weavile. It also is a very good option on HO thanks to priority and some practical resistances.
so many people asking repeats
I'd be open to C-ing it I guess, but realistically one ladder hero does not define much (I do appreciate the effort though). The main thing is how volatile and inconsistent it is for something with such a ridiculous opportunity cost that dictates entire team structures around it.
What Eeveeto said is entirely correct, fwiw
SubCM sets are stronger off the bat, but also Specs (more power, Flip Turn, etc.) has a very slight niche.
Fire types are strong, but also both face stiffer-than-ever competition from other Steel types remaining strong, Corviknight sees Defog Landorus-T being the king, and Ferrothorn sees less Spike weak teams than before (although it's still very good and a top 5 Pokemon, so A+/S- are both fair -- close vote).
Both just rose from A to A+, and the former did so without much of a majority. This thread really is just open to questions right now rather than arguments, but you're more than welcome to nominate either or both for S- in a day when it's fully open!
It is strong, but that does not mean it is good. It has no defensive use, it cannot break Ferrothorn, it struggles with prediction reliance around things like Heatran and Dragapult, and there are far more consistent options. If anything, it's barely hanging on to being ranked rn.
Hippo Sand is falling off while Tyranitar Sand sees more usage as Hippo fits poorly with things like Excadrill and Landorus-T, which find themselves on Sand a lot. Gastrodon is totally separate, providing a Fire resistance and potential Water immunity to help vs Heatran, Volcarona, and Rain.
See my response to Fenghuang, but also what BT89 said is true. Keep in mind the defensive sets are not what is being compared here.
More usage and it does very well against opposing offensive (especially with Rillaboom hitting a plateu in recent months), which is surging overall. This kind of leads to a weird arms race, especially on the ladder, which favors Rain atm.
Eruption over Taunt is pretty common now, which makes Slowking one of the few reliable pivots to it. Toxic + Taunt sets can be lame in the long term, but those are less common overall as a result of this and consistent usage of SR and Heavy Slam on Heatran, too.
I also think Slowking's overall niche grew for other reasons, fwiw, but in terms of Slowking vs Heatran, stomaching Eruption sure helps.
Could go either way here and it was close, but we're seeing it plateau and there's also more Slowking right now, which does not help too much.
Thanks to Eeveeto for his helpful answers earlier!
2 quick questions about the update
1. any reason why TR exclusives Cress and Alolawak are ranked C, while TR exclusives Hatterene and p2 are C-? I'm not really aware of any relevant uses of these mons outside of the standard cookie cutter TR team(cress, hatt, p2, melm, alolawak, filler) and I definitely haven't seen any good reason not to rank them together, especially Alolawak since its completely reliant on hatt+p2 setting TR.
2. Was there any discussion on rising Blaziken this time around? Doesn't seem like there was any opposition in this thread for the last two VR cycles to my nominations, and some people echoed my sentiments about Blaziken being particularly valuable in a Weavile centric meta.
1. any reason why TR exclusives Cress and Alolawak are ranked C, while TR exclusives Hatterene and p2 are C-? I'm not really aware of any relevant uses of these mons outside of the standard cookie cutter TR team(cress, hatt, p2, melm, alolawak, filler) and I definitely haven't seen any good reason not to rank them together, especially Alolawak since its completely reliant on hatt+p2 setting TR.
2. Was there any discussion on rising Blaziken this time around? Doesn't seem like there was any opposition in this thread for the last two VR cycles to my nominations, and some people echoed my sentiments about Blaziken being particularly valuable in a Weavile centric meta.
can't speak on TR, but i've been loving blaziken lately, it can surprisingly snowball against certain structures well. however, to take a guess the increases prominence of Rain as well as Slowbro are unfavourable trends that offset it being a decent weavile check.
Cress has uses outside of TR and AloWak is more of a staple on these teams than P2 is. I think Hatterene straddles the line between C and C-, but at that point it’s a crapshoot in my book.
It cannot really abuse the Weavile metagame when any switch in to Weavile results in item displacement and/or taking massive damage, but it still cannot break LandoT + Water type cores well at all (Bro/Pex/Fini) while lacking OHKO prowess into offense (I.e: Chomp, Pult, Torn avoiding OHKOs and destroying it). Realistically Blaziken’s rank is one of the most fitting in the entire thread in my eyes just because of how much potential it can have being minimized due to how limited it is and how little it provides for teams in a tier where you’re always strapped for slots. I don’t think it’s been close to rising in a while if you want me to be honest, but I’m happy to have it voted on again and entertain more discussion since you seem engaged.
Hey! So I'd like to ask why did Azumarill and Glastrier stay ranked, as they seem quite fringe ATM and see next to no usage. However, there should be a reason so hence why I'm asking.
Can I ask why Zarude is still ranked at all? Idt it even fits super specialized teams like many of the others C-/C mons. No real defensive utility outside of switching on pex (you still have to jungle heal, lose your item or get tspiked on in most cases). It pressures bulky teams except it doesn't really unless they somehow let it get +2. Buzzwole and Scarf urshifu's existence doesn't help either, neither does Clef rising again.
Omastar was also already explained as being a decent but fringe option for rain given its a swift swimmer that can boost further with Shell Smash and Meteor beam and has decent coverage
Ah ok thanks man, I just thought that MBounce could be fit onto sun like its gen 5.
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so I’ve been trialling an all UU team in OU. Can’t say I’ve had success with flying colours, only peaking around the high 1800s. Tho there’s some things jt made me wonder about:
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Thoughts on
Rhyperior ?
it makes a great switch into zapdos and tornadus , that aren’t packing weather ball on rain teams. It’s also surprisingly hard to force out thanks to solid rock
you can hit 194 SpD and over 140 speed with mild investment, and plenty of EVs to spare to pass 400 attack, and basically not worry about trading hits with Pokémon’s like clefable or defensive Melmetal. It has access to STAB earthquake and rock slide, which is pretty amazing with SD at wall breaking the current trending walls.
it can hit a lot of cool benchmarks with its SD set, like KOing all the regenerators Pokémon’s bar slowbro (and slowbro just needs a little toxic and SR damage). Because it doesn’t need coverage, the 4th slot can be toxic or stealth rock. Toxic breaks unaware clefable and hits landorus on the switch. As they are the only walls..
—
Keldeo
is really good right now, it can check volcanion, forces out Weavile/bisharp, and breaks stall teams with minor support. slowbro/Slowking don’t really check it efficiently when the only move they can hit it with is future sight. This means they’re not long term answers over a game, as they can’t really force keldeo out easily, and are easy to predict.
- Scald
- Secret Sword / Taunt
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
you can even run a mono attacking set with taunt , to completely shut down tox and also the FS + wait a turn + teleport combo that these twins use to safely bring in their Kartana/Zera/scarf lele on a broken substitute. I didn’t like the mono attacking set as much tho… due to the existence of volcanion. So if you’re packing a mono set, you need volcanion answers.
scald is a busted move in current OU. The list of Pokémon that like switching into it in such an offensive meta is not very long.
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Bulu has a perk that I think is quite overlooked.. and that is that it’s actually bulky and resists moves like knock off and close combat. That’s a big deal.. I wonder if anyone has explored bulkier sets much?
I run max attack adamant, 211 speed and the rest into SpD, and it makes a really good support Pokémon that can conveniently become a win con when the game opens up!
Bulu definitely feels relevant in the current meta ..
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Aegislash is really good right now. It’s the best of the 4, and I saved the best for last. I’ve been running a mixed set with only 100 SpeedEVs , HP investment, and max SpA. It pulls in a lot of work because shadow ball can 2hko a long list of OU threats, and it conveniently brings a lot of Pokémon into shadow sneak range. You can stack it with a sand setter forhitting a lot of chip benchmarks.
- shadow ball
- kings shield
- shadow sheak
- close combat
it also checks Lele very nicely and can act as a revenger for blacephalon/dragapult that have beenhurt a lot. It makes a great offensive switch in to Pokémon’s like the aforementioned lele, as well as Buzzwole, Fini, and some choiced Pokémon.
—
Thoughts on
Rhyperior ?it makes a great switch into zapdos and tornadus , that aren’t packing weather ball on rain teams. It’s also surprisingly hard to force out thanks to solid rock
you can hit 194 SpD and over 140 speed with mild investment, and plenty of EVs to spare to pass 400 attack, and basically not worry about trading hits with Pokémon’s like clefable or defensive Melmetal. It has access to STAB earthquake and rock slide, which is pretty amazing with SD at wall breaking the current trending walls.
it can hit a lot of cool benchmarks with its SD set, like KOing all the regenerators Pokémon’s bar slowbro (and slowbro just needs a little toxic and SR damage). Because it doesn’t need coverage, the 4th slot can be toxic or stealth rock. Toxic breaks unaware clefable and hits landorus on the switch. As they are the only walls..
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Keldeo
is really good right now, it can check volcanion, forces out Weavile/bisharp, and breaks stall teams with minor support. slowbro/Slowking don’t really check it efficiently when the only move they can hit it with is future sight. This means they’re not long term answers over a game, as they can’t really force keldeo out easily, and are easy to predict.- Scald
- Secret Sword / Taunt
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
you can even run a mono attacking set with taunt , to completely shut down tox and also the FS + wait a turn + teleport combo that these twins use to safely bring in their Kartana/Zera/scarf lele on a broken substitute. I didn’t like the mono attacking set as much tho… due to the existence of volcanion. So if you’re packing a mono set, you need volcanion answers.
scald is a busted move in current OU. The list of Pokémon that like switching into it in such an offensive meta is not very long.
—
Bulu has a perk that I think is quite overlooked.. and that is that it’s actually bulky and resists moves like knock off and close combat. That’s a big deal.. I wonder if anyone has explored bulkier sets much?I run max attack adamant, 211 speed and the rest into SpD, and it makes a really good support Pokémon that can conveniently become a win con when the game opens up!
Bulu definitely feels relevant in the current meta ..
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Aegislash is really good right now. It’s the best of the 4, and I saved the best for last. I’ve been running a mixed set with only 100 SpeedEVs , HP investment, and max SpA. It pulls in a lot of work because shadow ball can 2hko a long list of OU threats, and it conveniently brings a lot of Pokémon into shadow sneak range. You can stack it with a sand setter forhitting a lot of chip benchmarks.
- shadow ball
- kings shield
- shadow sheak
- close combat
it also checks Lele very nicely and can act as a revenger for blacephalon/dragapult that have beenhurt a lot. It makes a great offensive switch in to Pokémon’s like the aforementioned lele, as well as Buzzwole, Fini, and some choiced Pokémon.
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