Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

[Lord Pxperto]

mine

 

[ritch.]

mine

Gotta make one of my own when I'm home from school

 

[G-Luke]

Thanks for the feedback! Some explanations for the mons you mentioned: Avalugg-Hisui, as opposed to base Avalugg, has a stellar offensive profile. Mountain Gale + Stone Edge + Earthquake is a nightmare to wall in lower tiers, and I can see this filling a role similar to Stakataka as a hazard-setting tank (except this one also gets spin!). Sure, its defensive typing is godawful, but that's why it's all the way down in PU. The only reason to use Vivillon over the Oricorios is Sleep Powder, and I really don't think that's enough to make up for its typing. Klawf's special bulk honestly kills the mon. I didn't realize it had Knock though, so I could maybe see a PU niche. Cyclizar was tough to rank when considering Shed Tail. RUBL made sense to me originally but I think as long as Shed Tail is legal this mon will be at least UUBL, possibly even banned from OU. Without Shed Tail I think it slots solidly into RU though. The UU meta is extremely unfavorable to Lilligant-H, as mons like Moltres, Salamence, Amoonguss, Ceruledge, and Thundurus-Therian all completely stop its sweep, and some of those can be very dangerous when given free turns, so I don't think it's worth the risk. Agreed on Noivern, but I'm not comfortable putting it any higher than RU long-term.

Lilligant does get Ice Spinner, so Mence, Amoonguss and Thundurus-T aren't an issue after a boost. But I can see bulky Moltres still walling it. I also think Vivillion probably does be NU because I don't think QD Oricorios are NU at all, outside of maybe Psychic. And finally Avalugg Hisui sucks ass man, it's typing is too horrible and it doesn't have any defensive utility not provided by other Pokémon (including base). I think otherwise the list is pretty Coolio.

 

[TCTphantom]

Spoiler

Here are my rough thoughts. Not as adamant that Chien Pao needs a test compared to others but it will probably be a A+ tier mon at least.

Also some misc thoughts on a few other mons that I can't post due to the tier maker I used.

Spoiler

Hisuian Typhlosian will be ok. Probs RU or something.
Hisuian Samurott I am seeing UU with Ceaseless Edge and Sucker Punch.
Hisuian Decidueye is ok but its probs NU or lower.
Hisuian Arcanine is UU.
Hisuian Zoroark is UU or RU.
Zamazenta C will get an OU test this gen and will be meh. Iron Defense Body Press is turbo bait.
Lando I, Magearna, Urshifu S, and Spectrier will get banned very quickly after home.

 

[The Black Hippopotas]

Trying to do a competitive set for Arboliva

Arboliva @ Leftovers
Ability: Seed Sower
EVs: 188 HP, 32 Def, 252 SpA, 36 SpDef
Bold Nature
-Strength Sap
-Giga Drain
-Earth Power
-Hyper Voice

Arboliva is a pretty good Pokemon for Trick Room teams, but I think it can perform nicely in standard teams too thanks to Strength Sap + Seed Sower

 

[Cuddly]

Time to break the Geneva Convention by forcing this captured PoW (me) into analyzing Tera types for even more Pokemon. Let's start with the Pokemon confirmed in the data mine that weren't on the list of returning Pokemon.

Old Pokemon not shown in the older list

Tera: Fighting, Dark
Like with most Ghost types, you get a Dark resist and with Tera Blast Fighting you get really good STAB combo. Though you can use Dark as well since Banette has one Fighting option and a bunch of good Dark moves to abuse.


Tera: Water, Grass
EBIN MEME DAMAGE aside, I think Kyogre would benefit a lot with Grass or Electric. While its Super STAB Water attacks sound Ebin, Kyogre doesn't need damage from Water Spout or Origin Pulse so much as it would need cover. Grass benefits Kyogre as a means to hit its Ubers nemesis, Gastrodon super effectively with Grass Tera Blast. Grass of course covers its weaknesses as well.


Tera: Fire, Water, Dragon
Well guys, Primal Groudon finally returns So Groudon has a new partner/Rival in Koraidon. They pair up very well actually as Groudon is more defensive and Koraidon is by far more offensive and its typing matches well for a Sun team. Unlike other pure Ground types, Groudon has Drought, making Steel or Grass counter intuitive. Fire is a pretty good option for Groudon seeing how great its Primal form was. Drought halving its Water weakness and letting it use STAB Fire moves under the Sun. It also resists Ice and Fairy for Koraidon when paired with it. Water and Dragon provide a resistance to Water without being weak to Fire so that it can easily switch into Kyogre.


Tera: Steel, Ground, Flying, Water, Dragon
Ok, so this Gen Rayquaza lost one of its GOAT tools in V-Create due to transfer moves being killed. We got rid of Scald, but at what cost? So that kind of ruins the idea of Fire Rayquaza if you don't want to use Overheat. Steel and Water are the Ice protection for Rayquaza and have their own benefits. Ground protects it against Rock, but also lets it have STAB Earthquake for Steel types and for when Necrozma returns for DLC. Dragon and Flying can actually be used with Draco Meteor and Dragon Ascent respectfully if you want too.


Tera: Bug
To be frank, I have no clue what to do with Kricketune since it's just awful. It has no movepool and can't be saved by Tera Blast either.


Tera: See Overqwil, but with Fire over Water, and add STABs
Skuntank like Overqwil doesn't really get much from Terastallizing since it already only has 1 weakness and Bug/Grass/Flying otherwise provide a bunch of weaknesses. It can also use it more offensively with Fire and its STABs already.


Tera: Steel, Poison, Fairy, Dark
Uxie has a great position due to being a Floating Defensive Psychic. It can take advantage of Levitate by becoming Ground Weak types like Steel or Poison, and it can additionally use Fairy or Dark to help with its regular weaknesses too. It's pretty simple since it is a more defensive Pokemon.


Tera: Very similar to Uxie but with Electric
So Mesprit is a well rounded Pokemon that doesn't specialize in anything, so it's a bit more offensive than Uxie. As such it would use all its Teras and also Electric for Thunderbolt STAB. Sadly lacking a lot of move despite being the well rounded one of the Lake Trio.


Tera: Same as Mesprit but with Fire
Azelf's only change to the other Lake Trio are its movepool and stats, which it actually gets a bunch of useful tools naturally.


Tera: Grass, Flying
I did Heatran in another list even further back describing why and how it would use Grass and Flying. To summarize, Heatran really benefits from Grass due to its match up with Rain teams and also Ground spam. Heatran is a great example of Terastallizing defensively and how to use it. As it's not so much about making a Pokemon a super power like Dynamax, but more so giving yourself a way to have better odds against your match-ups. You can choose to Terastallize a Pokemon that would be weak to a certain match-up normally, but can turn out good with a new typing. And then when it isn't facing those match-ups, it can remain its original typing. That is to say Heatran Terastallizes when it needs to and stays Fire/Steel when it needs to.
Also Flying is a great option as well, but it is weak to Stealth Rock and Grass pairs better with Flash Fire.


Tera: Same a Uxie
It's literally just Uxie but bulkier for less speed and tools like U-turn.


Tera: Literally anything technically
So Arceus is a unique case as it can literally be any type it wants already, which you think would make Terastallizing useless, but remember what I said about Heatran. You can effectively have 2 different Arceus forms on your team and you choose which one to use each match (unless it doesn't override Plates or something. Idk how it works with Arceus).


Tera: See all the generic Psychic types normally
Gothitelle outside of Shadow Tag is really nothing special that separates it from other Psychics. Not even something like Levitate.


Tera: Water, Electric, Fighting
Being an Adaptability user, Dragalge definitely wants to use Terastallizing to its full potential and use 3 STABs that are all boosted by x2. Honestly don't know what happens when you do Adaptability+Super STAB. I was told it would be x2.66~, but idk based on how Adaptability and Tera are coded so uniquely.


Tera: Flying, Water, Electric
Klefki is nothing special. It has the same type as Magearna so it doesn't benefit much from Terastallizing. It can use Flying or Water to take a would-be super effective hit in a pinch, and it can do that with Electric and Magnet Rise too.


Tera: Fighting, Fairy, Dark
Hoopa in the lower tiers has great potential using this mechanic. Being a Ghost/Psychic type, it is extremely weak to Ghost and Dark, and its low physical bulk. However, it has great special bulk to make up for this and with Teras it can be much more of a threat. While Pursuit is gone, Hoopa still appreciates losing its Dark and Ghost weaknesses with most other types. Fighting is for Focus Blast STAB. Fairy only has Tera Blast for STAB, but it does provide a great defensive typing to Hoopa. Hoopa can also opt to use Dark which would cover both its weaknesses.

Tera: Dark, Poison, Fighting, Electric, Fairy
Hoopa-Unbound is a power house set back by its typing. Having no resistances and massive Bug and Fairy weakness, not to mention its poor physical bulk. This makes Hoopa-U a great wallbreaker, but almost entirely useless against offensive teams, which will look like they'll be pretty dominant this gen. However, Hoopa is in luck with Terastallizing fixing its biggest issue in lack of resistances on top of making it more of a threat. Its spammable Dark moves can be made even stronger with Super STAB while also giving it a Ghost/Dark resist. Poison is good as it combats Bug/Fairy while giving STAB to Gunk Shot. Fighting is similar to its Confined form but with physical options as well, and same with Fairy. Electric makes its Thunderbolt pretty devastating too.


Tera: Ground, Water, Fire
Ground on Volcanion is by far the best option due to its unique typing and Water Absorb. Volcanion's weaknesses include Rock and Electric, both of which Ground resists, Ground is only weak to Grass and Ice thanks to Water Absorb, and it also has Earthpower. Water and Fire are fine options too, even if it does lose some defensive utility.


Tera: Just see Girafarig
Literally just see Girafarig

Tera: Dark, Poison
Same as most other Mono-Fighting types

Tera: Grass, Rock
Seeing all the nerfs to Rillaboom and its movepool, it got hit a lot and can't do as much with Tera besides making its Wood Hammer nuclear or giving itself good Rock coverage with Tera Blast.


Tera: Fire, Fighting, Poison, Dark
Cinderace is a very unique Terastallizer because Libero got nerfed so hard that it arguably could be worse than on non-Choice sets. Like if you want to use its new Sword Dance move, you will become a Normal type and lose your STAB on even Pyro Ball, Gunk Shot, and High Jump Kick. You could honestly just run Blaze and Terastallize pretending it still has old Libero. Oh, and the new Fire Starter, Skeledirge, would otherwise counter Cinderace and threaten to burn it with Will-o-Wisp when it uses Sucker Punch. They really want to kill this wabbit huh?


Tera: Water, Ice, Dark, Ground
Really generic ass Mono water type who doesn't really get much use out of Tera. At least its fellow starters were nerfed so hard that it'll see them in the lower tiers.


Tera: Fighting, Fairy, Dark
You might see a heavily nerfed Zacian, which it is, but while it can only activate Intrepid Sword once, it can Terastallize and give itself STAB on Close Combat, which is pretty huge, as well as make Play Rough and Crunch stronger. Like with Magearna, Zacian-C already has an amazing typing so it doesn't get much of Terastallizing besides STABs.


Tera: Flying, Fighting, Water
Ok what the actual fuck. Did they really need to nerf Zamazenta? Sure it gets Stone Edge and Body Press, but they nerfed Dauntless Shield and its defenses. Honestly don't know what to do with it either since it Terastallizing either focuses on Offense or Defense, not both at the same time like most Pokemon and it doesn't do that great in either department.
Well at least it can easily be OU now with how much powercreep their is and it being nerfed too. Defensive teams might actually have a backbone if this thing is unbanned.

Tera: Steel
so Eternatus is still a great Pokemon, but like with most great Pokemon it doesn't need to Terastallize as often since it already has a great type and coverage. The typing and its bulk is what makes it an Ubers Staple. But if you do have to Terastallize with Eternatus, use Steel


Tera: Steel, Poison
Despite the nerf to Wicked Blow (wow a whole 5 BP loss), Urshifu is definitely way more of a threat to defensive teams now that it can cover its Fairy weakness defensively and offensively. After a bunch of power creep is banned, Urshifu will likely go too, but who knows since this Meta seems way more offensive.


Tera: Electric, Water, Fighting
I actually talked about Urshifu before, like with Heatran, but way way back with all the Gen 8 OU mons. Not much has changed besides the complete removal of Ferrothorn, Toxapex being nerfed into oblivion, and Slowbro losing Teleport and Scald. So yeah it definitely got massively indirectly buffed in that regard. Additionally also getting Protective Pads but better too. Oh and before I originally thought you'd have only 1 STAB with Tera too. Anyways the types it uses are pretty self explanatory. Electric for a boost to Thunder Punch, and Water or Fighting to make it's STABs hit really hard.


Tera: Steel, Fighting
You know, Zarude's typing is a little under appreciated offensively and defensively. Sure it has a bunch of weaknesses, but it also has a bunch of good resistances and is complimented well by Steel as it resists a whole bunch of things Zarude is weak to. Fighting can be used for Close Combat STAB, but Fighting overlaps a lot with Zarude's weaknesses.


Tera: Grass, Ice, Electric
Regieleki is honestly overhyped with Tera imo. It now gets coverage besides crappy low BP moves and Normal, but doing so means Regieleki, an incredibly frail Pokemon, hogs the Tera spot for all match-ups. It does mean most Ground types aren't switch-ins, but you also make Regieleki part Ice when you do, and if you use Grass with some defensive utility, you are still walled heavily by Dragons and some of the common Ground types like Landorus-T. It also doesn't help that immunity abilities like Volt Absorb are going to be pretty common since they pair so well with Tera. You can also Ungabunga and make Regieleki hit really hard with Electric Tera.


Tera: Poison, Fighting, Fire, Dragon, Steel, Ground
While Regidrago won't be a great as Regieleki in this meta, it will definitely use Terastallizing better thanks to its movepool and immunity abilities being more in its favor. That is to say only Fairy is immune to Dragon and the things that can cover for Dragon's weaknesses are at worst unable to hit Flash Fire. Additionally it just has more options for STAB as well. It having a massive HP stat can also let it Terastallize into a more defensive typing and allow it to set up more Dragon Dances if you want.


Tera: Just see Avalugg
Being mono Ice, only difference between it and Avalugg in what to use for Tera is just using the more offensive types like Fighting or Ground, while it still can use the Defensive types to fix its typing issue.


Tera: Dark, Fairy, Fighting
Spectrier is in a similar category of getting coverage that it really shouldn't have. Being a strong Ghost type, it can now have Fighting/Fairy coverage that would also defend against Sucker Punch, so it doesn't even need to use cheesy sets this time around.


Tera: Grass, Psychic, Steel
When in doubt, just use STABs or Steel type when Terastallizing. Calyrex does at least use Steel pretty well given its movepool with Leech Seed, so it benefits greatly in the lower tiers


Tera: Fairy, Fighting
Welp, AG for this thing. Like with Spectrier and Dragapult, you probably shouldn't give something like this coverage that it shouldn't have AND also lets it resist Sucker Punch.


Tera: Steel, Fighting, Ground, Water, Ice
Calyrex-I is a great abuser of Terastallizing as it can fix its typing weaknesses when it needs to while providing great STAB options for some. It can spec more defensively too since it has regular Calyrex's moves like Leech Seed and with it having nearly the same bulk as Lugia. It'll also benefit from its better form being AG so it can actually be used itself. You can use Ice, but Glacial Lance is not needing power with how strong it is.

Ok that's all the returning Pokemon that were in the Datamine but not in the leak. btw there were Pokemon like Pangoro who were in the leak but not in the game for what ever reason, maybe they'll be DLC, so take that for what you will.

Next post will be all the Fully Evolved Pokemon and new regional forms, while will likely be in the OU Discussion thread depending on when we get to play Gen 9 and when that thread is made. Just posting this in case thread closes early.

 

[ritch.]

Set dump and Chien Pao coming soon

 

[MilkyWay]

In a meta where offence will be king, you need the offence killer. You need weather! Let me introduce you to your candidates!

Sun
Torkoal - Scovillain - Slither Wing - Chi Yu

Sun will obviously stick out at the start due to how it buffs up all the new caveman mons. Torkoal is your setter. It hates the lack of removal but hey what ya gonna do.

That weird ass pepper mon Scovillain has just about the right stats and movepool to work as a chlorophyll sweeper. 108 SpA ain't incredible, but it's good enough when sun boosted to smash hard. Growth, Fire Blast, Solar Beam/Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Grass Knot for grass stab to hit rocks and waters. Unfortunately its special movepool is pretty lacking so there's no good final move on a special set to hit fire types. But mixed works since you can run stomping tantrum. It's physical movepool is much better overall, including Zen Heatbutt and Crunch, but is stuck with fire fang so isn't worth it. Honestly you hit so hard with fire blast that you could run sub in the final slot.

Sun mons amongst the Caveman Mons are tough to pick out since the obvious candidates would be banned even without sun (Salamence and Misdreavus). From the remaining candidates, the extra floofy Volcarona looks promising. Its attack is so high so it can't realistically boost speed, but you do have flame charge as a genuinely terrifying option. +1 speed and +1 attack floofy bug will sweep a lot of teams.

Finally as just a fire type nuke, hard to go wrong with Chi Yu. I actually think this mon will take a while to get banned, since its 100 speed will look slow compared to the hyper offence at the start, it has no good speed boosting option, and hates the numerous dark types the starting meta has. Still, if you just want to click funny fire button go boom like Victini or Darm, Chi Yu is probably your best bet. (I guess there's Zard, but eeehhhhh with hazard control as difficult as it's going to be, not convinced Zard will be a good option).


Snow
Slowking - Cetitan - Abomasnow

I'm rushing in here excited to tell you all about my new favourite combo: Slowking + Cetitan! Slowking can do the frosty teleport move to bring in Cetitan for free under snow. Since you'll want to try bring in a physical attacker versus Slowking, and not one who is a fire or fighting type, Cetitan will be in a perfect place facing something that will do not that much damage to it with its defence boost in snow. From there, Cetitan clicks belly drum, runs the old ice+ground super duper Mamo combo and dunks on everything. You can't even revenge it in snow with mach punch Breloom since Cetitan can just click ice shard for its last move and out-priority the priority.

There's also the option of Abomasnow, which isn't as laughable as it sounds originally. The defence boost goes a long way to making it much bulkier. It means it switches in pretty freely versus the Chad Dolphin. Plus it's going to be one of the few mons that take not much damage from Future Delibird, since it resists hydro and takes little from freeze dry. Considering how good Veil is, it's not a terrible option. However if you want screens + hail for the optimal Cetitan setup, Slowking can actually do that too. Run Oblivious over Regenerator if you are going dual screens to hard commit to the strategy. A bit silly but definitely viable.

Sand
Tyranitar - Hippowdon - Houndstone

I don't see a huge amount of space for Hippowdon in OU right away, but TTar definitely can fit in. But what is he going to do without his best buddy Excadrill? Team up with a good doggy! Not Lycanroc you silly, although I suppose if you squint really hard you can see a niche for it. No, it's with Houndstone. What does Houndstone do? Well, you know how Dracovish couldn't have Strong Jaw and Sand Rush at the same time, so you were "stuck" with "only" the 170 base power version? Well fear no more, because Houndstone has Last Respects, the 50 bp move that gets an extra 50bp for every mon of yours that faints. Meaning it's not difficult to see a last mon Houndstone under sand easily sweeping teams with its funny 300bp kill everything move.

It technically has coverage for all the darks with Play Rough, but let's be honest here. You might as well only run two moves on this mon, and the second should be Sleep Talk.

Rain
Pelipper - Barraskewda - Drednaw - Palafin

Rain is kinda shit out of luck. Yeah you have Pelipper, but Barraskewda lost flip turn in the generational shift, and Skewda without flip turn dropped to RU in Gen 8. Your best swift swim sweeper is Drednaw. Drednaw! I've actually used Drednaw in UU and it's not that bad. It's pretty much exactly the same as Kabutops (SD + Liquidation + Head Smash + Megahorn). Your best bet would be using rain to boost hard hitting water types like Palafin or maybe Quaquaval? That is, until Home is released and we get the Hisui mons. There's Overquil, but you also get the unholy abomination that is Basculegion for the brief 5 seconds before it's banned.

You think Golduck would have any viability as a rather niche swift swimmer this gen? It got access to Nasty Plot (only pokemon with Swift Swim + Nasty Plot I’m aware of), has reasonable coverage options (Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Psychic, also Flip Turn), and the same offensive stats as Kingdra (95 sp atk, 85 speed). By no means would it ever be OU I’m just wondering if it’d have any viability at all (I’m also saying this with the assumption terra is banned)

 

[Brown4Sides]

Might as well

OU/Uber

Obviously my opinions on these can change. I kept flip flopping between whether or not I should put Iron Valiant in STTG or OU. I didn't include any PLA mons. Shed Tail is in STTG over Cyclizar because I can see Orthworm being unhealthy with it, definitely better than Rabsca with Revival Blessing.

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

I agree with the view that if Terastallization is deemed broken, that Tera Blast should be suspected before Terastallization is suspected, because i think that there are quite a few mons that are broken with terablast that wouldnt be broken without it, like palafin, kartana or volcarona.

Late but probably still on time, I also agree with this sentiment. Tera Blast giving mons Hidden Power v2.0 if they have used Tera is strong, but I think this needs a bit more looking into.

Tera Blast on a moveset is an inherently risky move, as you either have to dedicate a Tera pokemon or risk having a pokemon with 3 moves for the entire game. Thus, if you have ground Tera Blast Volcarona, you will most likely only be using your Tera on said Volcarona.

However, the other side of the argument is that Tera Blast can make pokemon incredibly strong with giving them coverage they otherwise would not have access to. Examples being Volcarona, once again, with an Ice type move or a Ground type move to blast through opposing teams if they lack a check.

Note that the reason for a lot of these interactions is Tera Blast, not Terastalising itself. Tera is also confirmed to give an approximate 1.33x boost to moves the same type as you if you Tera into a type that you already have, and a 1.5x boost if you Tera into one you don’t have. Not too much of a power increase, and also comes with the upsides and downsides of changing your type.

In conclusion, while we don’t know how the meta will shape out, it’s looking like Tera Blast is more likely the broken element as opposed to Tera itself.

edit: Let’s wait to talk more about this until we sort out some pokemon bans, m’kay? This isn’t Dynamax, as detailed in this post by Cuddly.

edit 2: NP Lando lmaoooooo getting banned faster than you can say Genesect when that releases

 

[5camp]

You think Golduck would have any viability as a rather niche swift swimmer this gen? It got access to Nasty Plot (only pokemon with Swift Swim + Nasty Plot I’m aware of), has reasonable coverage options (Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Psychic, also Flip Turn), and the same offensive stats as Kingdra (95 sp atk, 85 speed). By no means would it ever be OU I’m just wondering if it’d have any viability at all (I’m also saying this with the assumption terra is banned)

I can't believe you've got me looking through Golduck's movepool on a Thursday night.

Golduck's main problem is it has no good ways to break bulky waters since its coverage is so bleh. It does get psychic to break Pex, which is very nice. But then there's Slowking who you can't touch at all, and can change the weather on you. Depends on how popular Slowking ends up being? But even generally bulky water mons like Parafin or Rotom-Wash will slow you down so much. Here's you at +2 life orb versus Rotom Wash with zero defensive investment.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Golduck Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 194-229 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile Drednaw gets a secondary stab with massive base power moves in stone edge or head smash, and megahorn for Slowbro/King. I guess it's harder to revenge Golduck with prio from Scizor, Pawmi or Breloom since pure water is such good defensive typing. But that's me comparing it to a mon that isn't likely to be OU viable anyway.

Honestly though? If you run fucking Golduck in OU and reach top 10 on the ladder, I will personally fly to your house and shake your hand because fuckit, that's hilarious.

::edit:: Wait, I was looking at Psyduck's movepool, Golduck actually gets grass knot. Although Rotom Wash weighs about as much as a paperclip, you can now trio up the chad dolphin and maybe the Slow-twins. Now you have 4mss since you can't drop Psychic for Pex, but you also need ice beam for dragons and grass types. Idk, doesn't look viable, but it would be fun to try

 

[Lord Pxperto]

when will be the new meta?

 

[pulsar512b]

I think people are overrating defensive terastellization and not realizing the true brokenness of offensive terastellization and here's why.

As a refresher on a couple absolutely key aspects- 1) you must choose the tera type (for each mon) BEFORE battle (in the teambuilder) and it cannot change 2) you can only use it once per battle. 3) you cannot retract the tera (i.e. you cant change back to normal)

So, let's say there's something like a dozen-2 dozen huge offensive threats in the metagame. When building a team (that you want to be able to switch into most stuff- extremely offensive teams aren't so much affected), not only do you have to account for them non-tera'd (already a difficult task) you have to make sure you dont lose to any of their teras - remember basically every offensive mon can take use of terastellization (tera blast and if nothing else just boosting stab). This is hard enough as-is because it kinda requires you to bring multiple answers for most pokemon in the metagame due to every pokemon learning tera blast (for a concrete example, you cannot rely on just torn/corv/skarm anymore for a defensive answer to kartana due to electric tera blast, but you also can't just rely on buzzwole or dragonite because what if it has fire/ice tera blast, so if you want to not just instalose to half of kartana sets you need to run multiple answers). defensive teratyping helps, but not enough to alleviate this undue burden on teambuilding.


Equally importantly, what happens even if you manage to get in a matchup where you're sure you can beat every opposing mon (regardless of whether it teras or not), albeit possibly at the very real cost of your tera. Maybe you need two of your defensive pokemon to tera to take on the other team and have to choose which you'd rather lose a mon to every time it comes in. Maybe your only check to one mon can only check it while unterad but needs to tera to answer another huge threat. Finally, using your tera just to stave off a huge offensive threat kinda sucks because it's not nearly as much of an impact as making a similar threat yourself.

However, most importantly, due to every pokemon being able to change it's set of answers at the drop of a hat, you cannot safely swap into anything because it could just get blown up by random tera blast (or tera boosted stab, which is especially important due to it's ability to just blanket deny pivoting around it with smth like torn-t or rotom-w by just killing) and congrats! it's 5-6. sure hope you didn't need that for something else! Having to just blindly guess what tera type something is to know what could possibly deal with it is not a good thing. Of course, you can somewhat tell from the team (a magnezone kart team isn't gonna be using electric tera blast) but it's still a shitty guessing game.

anyway thats most of my thoughts thanks for reading have a great day

w discussion about whether tera blast is the broken element going on now, I definitely could see that being the true cause of my issues w it above. w/o tera blast, your movepool restricts your ability to change your answers greatly (you could compare this to z-moves letting you beat traditional checks but only in a way limited by movepool perhaps?).
Definitely think some action on tera should be taken ASAP- just cuz it’s not dynamax doesn’t mean it isn’t the most obviously broken thing. Probably best to first ban tera blast, see if that fixes it, and go from there

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

Anyway here’s my totally accurate tier list for new mons lesgo

View opinions here

Two Maushold better than one Maushold

Orange Tatsugiri best Tatsugiri

Only Hero Form allowed here

Short thought list:
Why S Tier is so small: Gholdengo looks like the only real S tier here, as it’s by far the most versatile out of everything here and has a stellar movepool and ability to boot.

Tinkaton: Gigaton Hammer and the typing alone got it the C tier. The stats are not the best, and the movepool is okay. Also abilities aren’t great

Tera Blast.png: This is the real issue with Tera

Water and Fire Paldean Tauroses are supposed to be in the same tier I was just dumb

Belibolt: Hot take this mon looks pretty good

Maushold: Upside: This thing melts anything that isn’t a ghost or steel type with Population Bomb. Downside:

 

[Rarycaris]

While I do think it likely that Tera will create some problems, let's wait for one (1) match of SV OU to be played before drawing concrete conclusions about it.

 

[Cuddly]

Ok, before I do the Tera list for all the new Pokemon, here is a quick tier list. Keep in mind that some Pokemon like Cyclizar are only OU because of a move they have that may or may not be banned.

Tier List of Newmons

Some notes
-While I originally thought Meowscarada would be Ubers/OU for when I first heard it was the shill starter and got Protean (also thought it would get Magic Guard or Magic Bounce since Khu said it'd have an OP ability). After more information was dropped, I'm wondering if everyone placing Meowscarada so high even realizes Protean got nerfed. Honestly, the Protean nerf is so bad that unless you're running Choice set, Protean arguably is a hindering ability. Why? Well any time it uses a move now, it locks that STAB to be the ONLY STAB you get until you switch out. This is fine if you use Choice Band or Scarf on it, but any other set it can more often be a detriment to Meowscarada's performance. Like when I mentioned with Cinderace, if you use Sword Dance, you just become a Normal type with no STABs unless you run normal type moves. If you use a Life Orb set and someone switches into your Flower Trick with a decently Fire type, you're out of luck since this thing only has Grass STAB now. The nerf is so bad that Meowscarada might actually run Overgrowth over Protean in the future. Additionally, looking at its movepool it's not that great of abusing Protean either. You get like Play Rough, Thunder Punch, U-turn, Brick Break, and Acrobatics (something it can't use with Protean because all Protean sets will now hold Choice items). Am I being too harsh? Maybe, but I think many people don't seem to realize how bad the Protean nerf is.

-Skeledirge and Cludsire are like Quagsire, being Pokemon who are "Unaware" of tiers. The tier they'll end up being is hardly predictable but I do know both will be OU viable like Quagsire by virtue of Unaware and recovery alone. And Skeledirge will likely be higher due to also being pretty threatening when most unaware Pokemon are pretty passive. Torch Song+Wow+Hex+Slack Off is pretty great defensively

-Quaquaval does get a really great signature move and could definitely be RUBL, but between the 3 starters it has by far the worst stats. Only stat above 90 is Atk is just awful and stronger Water flame charge isn't fixing that, especially when its STABs aren't so great.

-Like mentioned above, Cyclizar is OU but only because of Shed Tail and it getting Regenerator. It could literally just learn Shed Tail and it would still be OU because Shed Tail is that strong. Additionally Rabsca and Pawmot are OU because of their revival move that could definitely be banned since it's a loophole around the species clause, and are also extremely broken moves too. Even if they have stats of RU and PU Pokemon, that revival move more than makes up for it.

-Maushold is something I don't know where to place since its strengths are so oddly specific, namely Population Bomb being effectively 300 BP and Tidy Up being Better Defog (as in doesn't proc Defiant or Contrary) + Dragon Dance. It also has great speed too and gets Technician Beat Up, but everything else is absolute garbage about it, and Population Bomb is still a Normal type move. So it's hard to place since it's so volatile.

My Reaction to Wo-Chien

Thanks to person who drew this btw.

-With Wo-Chien being a Ruin Legendary, I think it will still be solidly OU despite it being the weakest of the 4 and having Grass/Dark typing. It has incredible bulk and basically Perma Intimidate you can't switch out of. It's -25% but Intimidate is -33% by comparison. Its typing has a bunch of weaknesses, but it does have plenty of good resistances like Dark, Water, and Ghost. Worst case is that it ends up in UUBL. It can also just fix its typing with Tera too.

-Another Pokemon I think people tend to underrate is Tinkaton. And while I was under a false impression that it was far stronger than it actually was (thought it was almost Dracovish strong, turns out its more like Excadrill strong with Gigaton Hammer). However, I still think Tinkaton has good things going for it outside of Gigaton Hammer. For one, has one of the best defensive typings in the game, making have plenty of pivoting potential. Second is that it's one of the few Pokemon capable of learning Knock Off, something many Pokemon lost. Third is that Mold Breaker actually has a ton of applications for its. It can ignore Unaware Pokemon on Sword Dance sets, and it can ignore Magic Bounce and Good as Gold with its support moves. I think most likely spot is RUBL but still usable in UU tbh.

This meta is gonna look wild.

 

[Rarycaris]

here is a quick tier list.

I'm curious both why Enamorus is on your tier list given it's not in the game yet and why you feel both forms will be immediately Uber, more so than terrifyingly optimised threats like Flutter Mane.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

y'all are underrating tauros so much. just because they're boring doesn't mean the mons aren't good lmao, ain't no way fire/fighting 110 attack 100 speed intim mon hits PU


edit:

Ok, before I do the Tera list for all the new Pokemon, here is a quick tier list. Keep in mind that some Pokemon like Cyclizar are only OU because of a move they have that may or may not be banned.

what are these takes lol. what is bellibolt doing in UU with that defensive typing and gastrodon existing? why would wo-chien be any different from zarude? why would enamorus-therian (moonblast+ep bot) be Ubers in a meta with corviknight? have you seen meowskarada's movepool? what on earth is walling quaquaval in NU, and why would it not be higher??? very confusing stuff all-around

edit 2: By the way, what are y'alls thoughts on offensive Skeledirge in UU/RU? Torch Song/Shadow Ball/Earth Power is some amazing coverage, particularly when one of its STABs is better Fiery Dance.

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

Third is that Mold Breaker actually has a ton of applications for its.

Also abilities aren’t great

But yeah looking at it now I agree. B tier

Also so this isn’t a 1 liner here’s a Maushold calc
+1 252+ Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 210-250 (52.5 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not 100% accurate since I used Tail Slap as a base since there is no move that hits 10 times, but this is a general idea.

 

[Pabloaram]

Also so this isn’t a 1 liner here’s a Maushold calc
+1 252+ Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 210-250 (52.5 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not 100% accurate since I used Tail Slap as a base since there is no move that hits 10 times, but this is a general idea.

Gl hitting 10 times with Popu Bomb. It is strong but normally gonna hit around 5 times especially whitout skill link

 

[spookysocialist]

Gl hitting 10 times with Popu Bomb. It is strong but normally gonna hit around 5 times especially whitout skill link

It's not like fury attack, it's like triple axel where it will always hit 10 times unless you miss. With wide lens it has 99% accuracy so you will usually get 10 hits

 

[Pabloaram]

It's not like fury attack, it's like triple axel where it will always hit 10 times unless you miss. With wide lens it has 99% accuracy so you will usually get 10 hits

My bad.. i think it was mostly a roll betwen 1 and 10 instead of each hit having his own acc roll.

 

[carbonlifeform]

One likely trashmon that's got potential to be useful during the early-meta chaos, even if it probably won't be later:
Flamigo is, by far, the fastest Scrappy Fighting type we've ever had, and there are gonna be a lot of ghost types (tera and otherwise) floating around trying to protect the many dark types. Being able to just click CC and win is a nice trait to have, and Flying coverage is gonna be nice to have in this meta, too. It wishes it had a bit more speed, but with Scarf, it might be a great cleaner (hates Tox and Slowbro, obviously):

252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 306-362 (79.6 - 94.2%)
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 270-318 (71.4 - 84.1%)
252 Atk Flamigo Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 284-336 (65.4 - 77.4%)
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 229-270 (72.2 - 85.1%)

Or, as long as you're playing with a meme mon, go straight for the meme set:
CC/Acrobatics/SD/(Taunt/Roost/Electric Tera Blast)@Mirror Herb. Pop in to steal an obvious Rapid Spin or Tidy Up boost and just straight go to town. Just watch out for Chien-Pao.

Lord, I can't wait until midnight.

 

[1LDK]

One likely trashmon that's got potential to be useful during the early-meta chaos, even if it probably won't be later:
Flamigo is, by far, the fastest Scrappy Fighting type we've ever had, and there are gonna be a lot of ghost types (tera and otherwise) floating around trying to protect the many dark types. Being able to just click CC and win is a nice trait to have, and Flying coverage is gonna be nice to have in this meta, too. It wishes it had a bit more speed, but with Scarf, it might be a great cleaner (hates Tox and Slowbro, obviously):

252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 306-362 (79.6 - 94.2%)
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 270-318 (71.4 - 84.1%)
252 Atk Flamigo Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 284-336 (65.4 - 77.4%)
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 229-270 (72.2 - 85.1%)

Or, as long as you're playing with a meme mon, go straight for the meme set:
CC/Acrobatics/SD/(Taunt/Roost/Electric Tera Blast)@Mirror Herb. Pop in to steal an obvious Rapid Spin or Tidy Up boost and just straight go to town. Just watch out for Chien-Pao.

Lord, I can't wait until midnight.

5 bucks walls it
but on another topic, how much do you guys think PS! will take to update to the new gen? because i dont think they are gonna have it all by midnight, that sounds impossible

 

[carbonlifeform]

5 bucks walls it

I mean, a 4x flying weakness is pretty hard to overcome:
252 Atk Flamigo Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 448-532 (118.5 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

but on another topic, how much do you guys think PS! will take to update to the new gen? because i dont think they are gonna have it all by midnight, that sounds impossible

Yeah, I was checking out their Github to see if there were any open PRs or Feature Requests I could help with, but there's understandably nothing publicly visible re: the progress there. There are are so many new interactions to add, the majority of which have only been (kinda) figured out in the past few days, that I would assume it will take at least through the weekend if not another week. I have no recollection of how long it took for Gen 8 to be available.