Socializing with the opposite sex when you're married/engaged/in a relationship

WaterBomb

Two kids no brane
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So, I'm not sure when it happened, but somewhere along the way it became unacceptable to socialize with the opposite sex when you are in some way exclusive with another person.

When I was growing up, my parents raised me to believe that it was perfectly natural (and encouraged) for co-workers to go out to lunch during the workday. A male and female co-worker eating together in a restaurant was a common sight, and was not analyzed or even taken a second look at. The same could be said about having friends of the opposite sex. I was under the impression that it was ok to have (in my case) female friends that were just that, and that there was no romantic interest between the two. You could hang out with your female friends in a completely plutonic manner, and nobody would judge you.

Then, things began to change. When I entered my first serious relationship, I got a crash course in how the mind of a psychotic woman works. Not only was it unacceptable to spend time with another female that was not your girlfriend, it was inappropriate to even SPEAK to other females, let alone be friends with them. Having lunch with your female co-worker was unheard of, and would most certainly earn you a trip to the doghouse. What's more, a brief conversation with a female classmate to ask about the day's assignment would be met with a deep interrogation, Spanish Inquisition style.

Now, at first I thought this situation was just because the woman I was dating was unusually jealous and paranoid, and that she was the exception to a rule. However, after several conversations with other females I determined that many people shared the belief of my girlfriend at the time: When you're in a relationship, you don't talk to other girls. Period.

Since then I've had a couple other relationships, and none were as ridiculous as the first. I've still noticed that there is a general uneasiness in women when their man is interacting with another female. The degree of uneasiness varies from person to person, but it is always present in some form. Even if the girl (ie my fiance) is relaxed and trusting, they still feel that aversion to other females being near me.

What I'd like to know is: When did this transition occur? When did it become implanted in people's minds that you're not allowed to talk to the opposite sex if it isn't your lover or blood-related family? Moreover, what caused this transition? What is the basis for this belief? This topic is for the discussion of these issues. Have at it.
 
I think the reason it is so frowned upon now is because marriages / relationships dont last like they used to. Fewer people stay together for extended periods of time. I think that fear is certainly a factor in this shift because the assumption becomes, "he/she is cheating on me and is going to leave me for the person they are talking to." People that do not want their relationship to end are going to be wary of any potential threats that may try to steal away their partner, whether or not there is actually anything behind the interaction. People need to understand that their loved ones are always going to be surrounded by people of the opposite sex, and that usually there is not an affair going on.

That being said, there is certainly a "line" that can be crossed. If a person if spending less time with their partner and more time with a friend of the opposite sex, there is definitely cause for concern. Also, being flirtatious with men or women you arent interested in is not appropriate because it will make everyone uncomfortable and inspire jealously from your partner.
 
What kind of ass backwards place do you live in where this isn't okay?

I think you've been dating and meeting the wrong women. This has never been how it is with any sane human.
 
the problem really is guys and girls putting up with that sort of oppression. When a significant other says you can't hang out with the opposite sex, that is already a big hint of irrational jealousy and control issues that will only become stronger in the future. Regardless how that makes you feel, your response better be "You can't tell me who to hang out with, you should trust me" not a pussy and reluctant "okay...."
 
My post was completely serious. If you're dating a woman and she is not okay with you talking to other women, you're dating a terrible match for you.

Why do you surround yourself with these people? Have you never met a sane woman before?

I think the reason it is so frowned upon now is because marriages / relationships dont last like they used to. Fewer people stay together for extended periods of time.

Not actually true.
 
Of course it's true. Divorce rates are skyrocketing, and that's not something you can ignore or deny. I'm not saying people are being any less faithful now than they were in the 40s or 50s; I'm just saying women have come a long way and no longer want to be walked all over and objectified in their relationships.

Of course, some certainly take this concept way too far, crossing the line into the territory that WB is talking about. I have had girlfriends like that, and I have also had girlfriends who trusted me and didn't give a flying fuck who I talked to, as long as I didn't lie about it. It all boils down to trust, and it really is a million times worse than hanging out with another girl on lunch break if YOU LIE about it. If you're honest and direct and she can't respect you and your other relationships, then she isn't good for you.
 
I think what bothers me most is the fact that I have yet to meet a woman that is completely devoid of these feelings. My fiance, whom I love very much and is a perfect match for me, says she trusts me completely. I can tell by the way she acts that she says this with honesty, but she still cannot escape the ill feeling she gets in her stomach when I tell a story from college that involves my ex or the random adventures I had that may or may not have involved other women. Now I don't do retarded stuff like go into gruesome details or rub it in her face, but I am completely open and honest with my past if it is relevant to the story I am telling. I think what some of you are not understanding (chris is me) is that virtually all people experience this type of feeling in one way or another, they just may not admit to it.

I don't think people are insane for experiencing the natural human emotion of jealousy, I just think it has become programmed into our brains as a proper reaction to WAY too many situations. I think the portrayal of the way men and women interact has led us to believe as a society that men and women cannot communicate with each other without sex somehow being involved. Regardless of how silly this notion may seem to us intelligent people, it has been so thoroughly drilled into the heads of the masses that it overrides our more rational sides and leads to the aforementioned jealousy. People see a man and a woman talking, and automatically assume sex is involved. I discovered that this attitude was especially detrimental to relationships in college, where your girlfriend and all of your and her friends are located in the same place. This means everyone ends up knowing everyone, which leads to you constantly being in the spotlight. So if you walk out of the library and spot a female classmate from your next class, and you stop to ask her if we have a test today, chances are someone who knows you and your gf will see you. Whether they can hear the actual interaction is irrelevant, as they have already formed their own conclusion as to what is going on. This occurrence then gets retold to other people, and word begins to circulate. Inevitably this information will get back to your girlfriend. Now, regardless of how sane and rational your girlfriend is, this idea is planted in her head. This little seed of doubt may never blossom into full blown jealousy, but it will never go away. Such are the consequences of dealing with imperfect creatures like humans.
 
You sound like someone who's really trying hard to do right and is only getting stymied at every turn. I feel for you. I have been on both sides of this subject. I want to help you. So when you read this, please set aside any defensive reactions in your head and just press on. Nothing here is blaming you; this is simply to ensure that you know where your fiancee is coming from.

This is not a problem with women. This is a problem with culture. This is a problem with men being told that they have nothing to apologize for, women being told that they will never measure up, and people making money off the backs of our insecurities.

While your honesty about your past is absolutely appropriate, discussing it frequently is not necessarily appropriate. Even if you're holding back details, every woman I know automatically tenses when stories of their menfolk's past come up. Even if it doesn't involve other women.

Your observation that we've become programmed to assume that sex is automatically involved is precisely correct. Advertising revenue depends on it. It is deliberate and endemic in our culture. Part of that endemic problem is the secondary advertising message: "Everyone is having more and better experiences than you. Spend money to fix it right now. Look at these people - they know about this product, this destination, this activity, and they're having fun with it. You didn't know about it, and you're missing out." So now your girlfriend, and every other woman - and it's especially targeted at women - is running around with the idea that everyone else is looking down on her, laughing behind her back, dismissing her. Believe me, women are very sensitive to being dismissed.

The assumption among women is that when a man opens his mouth in reply to a woman, he is probably going to dismiss or correct or lecture her. That's not because he thinks of her as lesser, but because that's how men speak, how they're trained to speak, and it has the effect of shutting women down, letting them know that they're not going to get anywhere in a conversation unless they're agreeing with a dude. Next time you're in a mixed-sex group, listen to the men: They declare, they assert, they argue their position. Now listen to the women: They qualify. They preface their statements with shit like "I don't know, but" or "I kinda think" or "Well, this is only me, but" or any of a hundred things which really mean: "I'm not able to assert like a man; please find it in your heart to consider the possibility that what I say might have value. Or not. Whatever's best for you."

Listen to a paragraph of dudespeak. Now go back and imagine a woman saying it. Suddenly she sounds like Rosie O'Fucking Donnell, and she's full of herself. Seriously. It's true. That's how women have to go through the world. No wonder we all seem so goddamn neurotic. No wonder your fiancee has an automatic worry of being considered so easily dismissed that you might cheat on her without a second thought, no matter what she knows of your character. It's how she's been raised in a disgusting culture, and there's no escaping it.

The transition in the past fifteen years to the modern hookup culture sure hasn't helped things, especially in the specific department of your problem. Keep that in mind as you approach the matter in the future.

People are being told: Don't settle down in your teens and twenties. Try lots of relationships, hit the bar often, have lots of casual sex. Plan on getting the herp. Plan on incubating a case of HPV. Women, you are now judged based on your perceived sexual availability. You have to have a reason to turn someone down for sex, especially if you're female, but definitely for dudes too. If you're not fucking on the third date, drop it. That kind of shit.

Of course she's thinking about the possibility that you're cheating, even if she absolutely knows that it's not happening. She's been trained to think of it. Know what? Men cheat. It's statistically unlikely that a woman who has relationships with more than one man over the course of her life will probably be cheated on by one of those men. Women cheat, oh yes, and it's being encouraged more and more these days, but cheating has always been primarily a man's game. There's no way that it's not going to be on her mind, and you can thank your less scrupulous fellow dudes for that thorn in your ass.



Solution for your problem? There's not an easy one. I think the first thing you can do is start learning feminist theory and talking about it with her. The more she knows that you can recognize the things that push her worry buttons - and that you can empathize with her feelings about those situations - the more she can relax and trust you. Even if she's not big into feminism herself, the simple fact that you're capable of "thinking like a woman" not only makes it easier to let you out of her sight, it also makes you the biggest fucking catch on the block. Her friends will envy her good taste in men. Her self-esteem will skyrocket. Say hello to more blowjobs.

Don't refer to these thought patterns as psycho or jealousy or whatever. This all comes from a very real place, and it deserves recognition.

Also, read these bingo cards and see if you've ever said anything like the entries within. If you have, stop now.
 
Of course it's true. Divorce rates are skyrocketing, and that's not something you can ignore or deny. I'm not saying people are being any less faithful now than they were in the 40s or 50s; I'm just saying women have come a long way and no longer want to be walked all over and objectified in their relationships.

Perhaps this was poor choice in words. I didn't mean to say that divorce wasn't increasing, but that relationships aren't happy for a shorter amount of time these days or something like that. As you said, people are actively ending their relationships more now, but they basically have been dying like that for years. So "relationships haven't been lasting like they used to" is technically true, I argue they lasted in name only.
 
I never understood that. If you can't trust your partner to the point where you won't let them hang out with someone of their preferred sex, then maybe you shouldn't be dating them. It's that simple.
 
Me and my girlfriend are this way.. I've never really minded too much.. Although, I am a bit better with dealing with it than she is. More guys talk to her than vise versa and I hardly make a big deal about it other than when she doesn't have the right response to what they do or say.

Like when this guy was sort of stalking her and talking shit to me on myspace.. He kept coming in to her work. I expect her to make it clear he needs to fuck off and I sort of felt like she didn't do so well enough. That made me pretty upset.

And one girl in my class talked to me from time to time because I'm in Internet Design and for two hours in there I'm stuck with sooooo many lame people you have no kind of clue how lame they are. Mostly dorky-ass, anime-loving, failblog-desktop-wallpapering, nose-picking, snorting-when-they-laughing girls in the world. It was kind of nice to have anyone in the class I knew to talk to during the 2.5 hour class. I haven't talked to her in class other than for a project in about 4 months or something..
I still hear about it...

Other than that though I'm very comfortable with how me and my girlfriend are. I don't feel the need to socialize with other girls really. It's not a problem. It's not a trust issue. It's that she's mine, I'm hers, and we don't really need anyone else. And we're both too pretty- people can't socialize with pretty people like us without taking it even an inch too far.

By the way babe I know you're probably going to read this (don't get mad?) lol. I Love Youuu Brittneyyy! lol
 
I agree with CiM, but I think it's a combination of his viewpoint and the opposite.

I think that the divorce rates of about ~50% now are reflective of both the fact there were plenty of terrible marriages back in the olden days when divorce was not as easily available, so the relationship probably had ended in terms of any attraction or love or happiness.

But I also think that now divorce has become accessible, people are more willing to enter marriage: it's not hard to say yes when you subconsciously know that you can get out if it goes wrong. It means you don't have to be 100% sure, you can be 90% sure or 85% sure or even less for some people.

More influential to the stats than that, though, I think is people are divorcing now over things that they would have felt compelled to work through in previous times. The option being there means people will take it and there's less incentive to compromise.


I don't have any hard stats on this, but I expect the first thing (CiM's position) is probably the most prevalent, followed by the third and second things I mentioned.

@Nida: Most of those cards are pretty horrible, but I disagree with a couple of them being labelled as illegitimate. A lot of the anti-fat ones are pretty legit too in many cases. The antirape-apologist one is pretty spot-on, though.
 
I think women are far more interesting in getting married than being married. I can't believe the ordeal a wedding is.
 
Also, read these bingo cards and see if you've ever said anything like the entries within. If you have, stop now.

Is it bad that I laughed at some of these? I've never said any of them, but imagining someone saying them is funny.

Also, so you don't feel like I completely disregarded the meat of your post, I really like the way you presented it. That was probably the most understandable and fair explanation I've ever heard for this issue. That being said, I just wish my fiance would BELIEVE ME when I tell her she's smart and beautiful and kind. Stupid eriksson and his socializations, why are we programmed this way?

@Quaily - Holy shit did you hit the nail on the head. My fiance goes bat shit insane over this wedding planning thing. She gives me a hard time because I don't get super excited over the details like she does, but I can't force myself to act a certain way when that's not how I feel. I love her and all and I can't wait to marry her, but is it bad that I don't find this planning stuff exhilirating? I honestly wouldn't mind a bit if she picked all the flowers, invitations, themes, menus, and cake for the wedding, and the only thing I got to do was choose who I invited. Is that so wrong?
 
My girlfriend trusts me completely but doesn't trust other women to keep their hands or minds off me. I think that's why she's jealous of some girls.
She's always cool if the girl is a mutual friend of ours that I knew first.

Also orangekows, lovin' the avatar. :)
 
My girlfriend trusts me completely but doesn't trust other women to keep their hands or minds off me. I think that's why she's jealous of some girls.

This is basically my boyfriend's only reason for being jealous about my talking to other guys. "Alison, you don't know how some guys think, you don't know what they're really after, I love you and I need to protect what's mine, what can I say?"

Thinking about that last line kind of irks me now, since he's actually said something like that, o.O, but anyway, I dunno. Even since I was in middle school, I have been more prone to keep a larger number of guy friends than girl friends. Back then, it was more because of mutual likes in video games (DUH POKEMON) and other things, certain television shows, some shit that most other girls just didn't really care for. ALSO MY MAN VOICE ASSIMILATES ME jk, but my general personality in general is more cohesive with more guys than girls, just because I can be extremely vulgar/blunt/mostly say fucked up random shit. Of course it's not like that's the only criteria guys share amongst themselves as far as similarities, but back then, it seems like that was a strong diving line. Of course there are plenty of girls "like me" but it's also a time and a place thing, I dunno, I don't know many girls like me!

Anyway, I've never been "psycho" or really anxious about my boyfriends hanging out with other girls. I've always sort of had the idea that "Well I hang out with guys all the time, so it's not fair of me to be bothered by him hanging out with girls, and I do trust him, etc." It may be sort of cynical of me, but I figure that I should trust that my boyfriend will not cheat on me when he hangs out with any other girl, and if he does, then he wasn't a great boyfriend anyway. (My past two exes have broken up with me and started dating girls they had started to hang out with towards the end of our relationships, so at this point I'm just like "fuck it" when my boyfriends hang out with girls.)

But yeah, I basically agree with the sentiment that if you really do love your partner/trust them, it shouldn't matter who they spend time with, and if it does, then it's just an insecurity you have to deal with/get over if you do care about them/want them to be happy.
 
I agree witcho man Pez.
I KNOW how perverted my guy friends and her guy friends get.
But as long as they keep their thoughts to themselves I'm cool.
This may sound cocky but I know that nobody can compete with me when it comes to my girls affections so I generally don't care about other dudes.
Plus she's super honest with me about everything so I have no reason to distrust her.

However, when those perv thoughts are vocalized or physically manifested I've been known to throw the fuck down.

Lastly I always make it a point to remain appropriate in the presence of all women who have significant others.
You know The Golden Rule and all that. :)
 
The only person I've known to do this was my ex, with the guy she was with after me. Only she wouldn't let him see anyone, guys or girls, because she'd had a big fight with everyone, so it's not really the same thing.
 
I don't understand this notion of "I trust you, I just don't trust other people." You're never going to stop other people from looking at your man/woman, and you're never going to stop them from thinking naughty thoughts. When a girl tells me she trusts me but not other girls, I ask her what the girls are gonna do. Are they going to rape me or something? If you trust me fully then why does it matter what other people think/try? I'll just turn them away right? I think the problem is still a little distrust of the man you're with, regardless of his honesty or track record. Women just don't want to admit it because they don't want to upset the man.
 
i was in a similar relationship to the one described in the OP, with a girl who was fucking nuts and got hurt/angry anytime i ever showed any attention (talking, hanging out, alughing with...et cetera) other females. no matter how innocuous, no matter how long i'd known them. it was a constant cycle of me trying to get it through her head that it was perfectly normal and healthy to have other friends, and me trying to comfort her and promising i'd never leave her blah blah blah.

this only got worse over the 4 years we were together, and i cut ties with some very cool girls because of it. i regret that.

i'm now happily married to a wonderful woman who is not threatened by other woman. one of my closest friends is a girl i've known for upwards of 10 years (ironically, the step-sister of the co-dependant girl i dated for 4 years). we both have healthy boundries and are completely committed to each other, and there's not even a question about our loyalty or integrity.

having said that, most kids these days are fucked up majorly. between the retarded dating cycle this society encourages and the poor examples their parents set for them, a lot of kids (boy and girl) grow up with fear of both commitment and abandonment. this leads to co-dependancy and distrust in future relationships.

so you really just have to prove yourself trustworthy, and try and help your fiance to get over her fears. it's very important if you want to have a functional and healthy life together that you both are able to "have a life" outside of each other, and friends outside of each other.

now, you still have to be appropriate, don't seclude yourself with the opposite sex, don't spend an inordinate amount of time with other girls, that's just asking for trouble. you have to be very conscious and careful, and not allow yourself to become attached to other girls. that's imho the main reason relationships fail, because one party or the other fails to "guard their heart" from "falling" for someone else.
 
My gf doesn't really have a problem with me socializing with the opposite sex, but I don't do it much to begin with. Sorry to hear how crazy some gf's are.
 
There's really nothing wrong with socializing and friendship. Little girls who can't wrap their heads around that aren't worth the time of day. Honestly, I'd venture a guess that when a lot of these girls leave puberty they figure out that it's not worth the energy and it only bends relationships towards a downward slope. If the girls talked about in this thread don't learn to shape up you men better raise your standards. Real women don't hassle with this kind of shit.
 
Well I don't go into the kitchen too much so I don't talk to women all that often.

On a slightly more serious note, my current girlfriend doesn't bring anything up whenever I talk to other girls, unless she doesn't know who they are, where she'll probably just ask "Who's this?" and leave it at that.
 
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