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so when do the polls on wobby dx-s & iv/event close anyway
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
OK, to start off with I am stating that my vote is based on decentralising the metagame as much as possible. And that by decentralisation I basically mean giving players variety in battles. So they never feel that they are stuck using certain teams, or that every team they face is the same. This beats out all "fun" based arguments because if you have options available to you, you should be able to choose a team that you find fun, or that avoids un-fun situations. So variety or decentralisation includes things vague ideas as team strategies, moveset options and anything a player feels they would like to change about their team. This is why I approve of the vote concept.
Though I would like to add, that only the opinions of top level players should be considered, because a low level player if he feels he has no options available to him, could create options by becoming a better player - provided the game is more decentralised at the top level. This is why I think the vote should be limited to PR members. This is not really relevant beyond an explanation of my thought process, but obviously I want you to understand where I am coming from. I'm not trying to argue for any sort of change of approach.
I prefer a more aggressive style of battling than a lot of people, and to make up for the fact that a lot of my pokemon are chosen for the damage they can deal more than for their defenses, I like to use a lot of choice scarves (as many as 3 or so in a team). An example of why is for something like Infernape. Infernape is hard to counter, but if I have a hard hitting choice scarfer, I can instead just avoid giving it an easy switch in, and then when it does switch in, limit the damage it can cause by forcing it out every time it gets a KO.
Of course this doesnt really work against Pokemon who boost their speed. Any Salac Berry user with more base speed than my Scarfer (usually only Garchomp), Yanmega, Dragon Dancers (mainly only Salamence), and opposing Choice Scarfers need to be treated specially. Garchomp I firmly believe should be banned. Yanmega and Salamence have issues with stealth rock, which makes life against it significantly more comfortable (Stealth Rock is the only reason I feel Salamence is not uber), and Choice Scarfers I can counter by stacking my team with resistances.
Deoxys-E is obviously an extra case that requires special attention, not because it boosts its speed but because it is already that fast. Of course it is counterable, but unlike any other cleaner (I am using this term to mean a sweeper that uses speed, so not something like CMcune or Curselax), with the exception of Garchomp, I cannot stop it without a dedicated counter.
I think the difference between Salamence and Deoxys is really relevant here, as an indication of where the boundary between Uber and not Uber is. Dragon Dance Salamence is a very difficult pokemon for me to face, I try to do my utmost to prevent it from setting up, and if it does, I often have to gamble. But I know that it should be taking Stealth Rock damage, and that it needs to set up, which means once it does have a Dragon Dance it will almost certainly not switch, as it will probably be unable to Dragon Dance a second time. This I think is a good example of what MoP was getting at. Of course my all attacking team is going to struggle against some pokemon. The difference is that against Deoxys, there is just too often nothing I can do, except have a dedicated counter.
The argument that not every team has Deoxys is fine for the shoddy ladder (which I dont use atm) but fails to consider tournament situations. It is highly unlikely I would be able to win a major tournament without meeting one Deoxys-E. Especially considering it's uniqueness.
It is my opinion that having a wide variety of team styles shoule be part of the goal of a good ruleset, and that Deoxys-Es effect on all out attacking teams is detrimental to the point it should be banned.
This is all, up until now a secondary justification for wanting Deoxys-E banned. My main reason is in construction of my own teams. I said that I think having options is important. Obviously with Deoxys unbanned I have a new option and should be ahppy about that. But I am certain that Deoxys in effect reduces the number of reasonable options, by being so much stronger than its rivals.
As I mentioned I like using Choice Scarf. I will continue to use it in future, but if Deoxys remains unbanned, I will use Deoxys-E on all of my teams. The only reason I currently dont use it much, is partly because I am lazy and havent got round to building a team. But also the last team I built I built to test Wobbuffet, and I initially found having two pure psychics cumbersome. Now that Wobbuffest is banned, I will not be using any other pure Psychic type, because Deoxys is the best of them.
Deoxys is the best revenge killer. There are situational justifications for others, but I think in the general case, if you want revenge kills, you should use Deoxys.
As for Aldaron's comments about scarf Heatran. Firstly a nitpick.. Heatran does not benefit from having scarf against either Scizor or Yanmega. It outspeeds Scizor regardless, and doesnt outspeed Yanmega either way.
Secondly it is only a situational case. It's obvious that Hippowdon is a better Tyranitar counter than Lugia, but generally Lugia is considered so much the better wall that it is Uber and Hippowdon is not.
Let's for the sake of argument compare Deoxys with Garchomp. I think most people will agree that Garchomp is the best Scarfer as a cleaner and revenge killer. Deoxys is faster than Garchomp, so much so that Deoxys can run Choice Specs while Garchomp runs Scarf and still outspeed it.
So a comparison of a Specs Deoxys and a Scarf Garchomp:
Garchomps Outrage against a neutral 299 def pokemon does 114 max. Deoxys does 189 with Psycho Boost.
Of course Psycho Boost is not an ideal move for a cleaner, but I think Garchomp should be banned anyway. If you compare Psychic with other common scarfers there is still a clear advantage over pretty much everything. Psychic will outpower Jolly Scarfcross Close Combat (not adamant though), considering accuracy it does more per turn than Heatran's Fireblast and it blows Gengar away in terms of damage. None of these pokemon have anything like the range of options Deoxys has in terms of type coverage (Grass Knot, Ice beam, Thunderbolt, Fire Punch, Super Power, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball - basically everything except Flamethrower).
It is reasonable to say that Psychic is a type with common resistances (Dark, Psychic and Steel). But common Dark types are all OHKOed, common Psychics are usually weak to one of Deoxys's other moves (or part Steel), which only leaves Steels. Heracross and Gengar are resisted by less, but have less coverage in terms of hitting Super Effective.
I firmly believe that generally, Deoxys-E is a stronger revenge killer and cleaner with Specs than anything else is with Scarf.
The thing is of course that people dont even use Specs Deoxys, because being trapped into a move is such a massive disadvantage. Specs Deoxys is generally more effective than other Scarfers and yet it isnt even Deoxys's best set for this purpose. It's kind of a convoluted way of making my point it's true, I'm sorry but I am trying to demonstrate the clear benefit here.
Being locked into moves is a massive disadvantage for any pokemon. Especially for a cleaner. I know better than to let my last two pokemon be something other than a steel and a ground resist if I do not know damn well that my opponent doesnt have a Scarf Chomp. I design teams with the intention of having as many resistances as possible between the two pokemon I expect to be the last standing.
The last point was the comparisson as a mixed sweeper. Infernape is not as good a sweeper as Deoxys. It isnt fast enough to sweep reliably, and the additional power it has with fire moves is trumped by Deoxys's move variety, it's better defenses and it's speed. And this only considers Deoxys's as a mixed sweeper. Infernape may be the best mixed sweeper (Deoxys excluded) but it is a one trick pony. Deoxys can support with Spikes, Reflect, Light Screen, Knock Off, Thunder Wave or Stealth Rock. And it can run a Cosmic Power set.
Deoxys is, in my opinion, objectively stronger to an excessive degree than any other pokemon at the roles it fulfills, and it can fulfill multiple roles. If Deoxys remains unbanned then I will use it on every team I build. I don't want to do that.
I am not going to bother assessing your approvals or dissaprovals of other peoples votes in depth, some I have mentioned to you but some not. But I feel your bias toward OU votes is ridiculous. The onus of proof may be on our side, but I think your willingness to read between the lines and make assumptions about the validity of OU arguments makes no sense in light of your dismissals of Uber arguments.
Have a nice day.
Though I would like to add, that only the opinions of top level players should be considered, because a low level player if he feels he has no options available to him, could create options by becoming a better player - provided the game is more decentralised at the top level. This is why I think the vote should be limited to PR members. This is not really relevant beyond an explanation of my thought process, but obviously I want you to understand where I am coming from. I'm not trying to argue for any sort of change of approach.
I prefer a more aggressive style of battling than a lot of people, and to make up for the fact that a lot of my pokemon are chosen for the damage they can deal more than for their defenses, I like to use a lot of choice scarves (as many as 3 or so in a team). An example of why is for something like Infernape. Infernape is hard to counter, but if I have a hard hitting choice scarfer, I can instead just avoid giving it an easy switch in, and then when it does switch in, limit the damage it can cause by forcing it out every time it gets a KO.
Of course this doesnt really work against Pokemon who boost their speed. Any Salac Berry user with more base speed than my Scarfer (usually only Garchomp), Yanmega, Dragon Dancers (mainly only Salamence), and opposing Choice Scarfers need to be treated specially. Garchomp I firmly believe should be banned. Yanmega and Salamence have issues with stealth rock, which makes life against it significantly more comfortable (Stealth Rock is the only reason I feel Salamence is not uber), and Choice Scarfers I can counter by stacking my team with resistances.
Deoxys-E is obviously an extra case that requires special attention, not because it boosts its speed but because it is already that fast. Of course it is counterable, but unlike any other cleaner (I am using this term to mean a sweeper that uses speed, so not something like CMcune or Curselax), with the exception of Garchomp, I cannot stop it without a dedicated counter.
I think the difference between Salamence and Deoxys is really relevant here, as an indication of where the boundary between Uber and not Uber is. Dragon Dance Salamence is a very difficult pokemon for me to face, I try to do my utmost to prevent it from setting up, and if it does, I often have to gamble. But I know that it should be taking Stealth Rock damage, and that it needs to set up, which means once it does have a Dragon Dance it will almost certainly not switch, as it will probably be unable to Dragon Dance a second time. This I think is a good example of what MoP was getting at. Of course my all attacking team is going to struggle against some pokemon. The difference is that against Deoxys, there is just too often nothing I can do, except have a dedicated counter.
The argument that not every team has Deoxys is fine for the shoddy ladder (which I dont use atm) but fails to consider tournament situations. It is highly unlikely I would be able to win a major tournament without meeting one Deoxys-E. Especially considering it's uniqueness.
It is my opinion that having a wide variety of team styles shoule be part of the goal of a good ruleset, and that Deoxys-Es effect on all out attacking teams is detrimental to the point it should be banned.
This is all, up until now a secondary justification for wanting Deoxys-E banned. My main reason is in construction of my own teams. I said that I think having options is important. Obviously with Deoxys unbanned I have a new option and should be ahppy about that. But I am certain that Deoxys in effect reduces the number of reasonable options, by being so much stronger than its rivals.
As I mentioned I like using Choice Scarf. I will continue to use it in future, but if Deoxys remains unbanned, I will use Deoxys-E on all of my teams. The only reason I currently dont use it much, is partly because I am lazy and havent got round to building a team. But also the last team I built I built to test Wobbuffet, and I initially found having two pure psychics cumbersome. Now that Wobbuffest is banned, I will not be using any other pure Psychic type, because Deoxys is the best of them.
Deoxys is the best revenge killer. There are situational justifications for others, but I think in the general case, if you want revenge kills, you should use Deoxys.
As for Aldaron's comments about scarf Heatran. Firstly a nitpick.. Heatran does not benefit from having scarf against either Scizor or Yanmega. It outspeeds Scizor regardless, and doesnt outspeed Yanmega either way.
Secondly it is only a situational case. It's obvious that Hippowdon is a better Tyranitar counter than Lugia, but generally Lugia is considered so much the better wall that it is Uber and Hippowdon is not.
Let's for the sake of argument compare Deoxys with Garchomp. I think most people will agree that Garchomp is the best Scarfer as a cleaner and revenge killer. Deoxys is faster than Garchomp, so much so that Deoxys can run Choice Specs while Garchomp runs Scarf and still outspeed it.
So a comparison of a Specs Deoxys and a Scarf Garchomp:
Garchomps Outrage against a neutral 299 def pokemon does 114 max. Deoxys does 189 with Psycho Boost.
Of course Psycho Boost is not an ideal move for a cleaner, but I think Garchomp should be banned anyway. If you compare Psychic with other common scarfers there is still a clear advantage over pretty much everything. Psychic will outpower Jolly Scarfcross Close Combat (not adamant though), considering accuracy it does more per turn than Heatran's Fireblast and it blows Gengar away in terms of damage. None of these pokemon have anything like the range of options Deoxys has in terms of type coverage (Grass Knot, Ice beam, Thunderbolt, Fire Punch, Super Power, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball - basically everything except Flamethrower).
It is reasonable to say that Psychic is a type with common resistances (Dark, Psychic and Steel). But common Dark types are all OHKOed, common Psychics are usually weak to one of Deoxys's other moves (or part Steel), which only leaves Steels. Heracross and Gengar are resisted by less, but have less coverage in terms of hitting Super Effective.
I firmly believe that generally, Deoxys-E is a stronger revenge killer and cleaner with Specs than anything else is with Scarf.
The thing is of course that people dont even use Specs Deoxys, because being trapped into a move is such a massive disadvantage. Specs Deoxys is generally more effective than other Scarfers and yet it isnt even Deoxys's best set for this purpose. It's kind of a convoluted way of making my point it's true, I'm sorry but I am trying to demonstrate the clear benefit here.
Being locked into moves is a massive disadvantage for any pokemon. Especially for a cleaner. I know better than to let my last two pokemon be something other than a steel and a ground resist if I do not know damn well that my opponent doesnt have a Scarf Chomp. I design teams with the intention of having as many resistances as possible between the two pokemon I expect to be the last standing.
The last point was the comparisson as a mixed sweeper. Infernape is not as good a sweeper as Deoxys. It isnt fast enough to sweep reliably, and the additional power it has with fire moves is trumped by Deoxys's move variety, it's better defenses and it's speed. And this only considers Deoxys's as a mixed sweeper. Infernape may be the best mixed sweeper (Deoxys excluded) but it is a one trick pony. Deoxys can support with Spikes, Reflect, Light Screen, Knock Off, Thunder Wave or Stealth Rock. And it can run a Cosmic Power set.
Deoxys is, in my opinion, objectively stronger to an excessive degree than any other pokemon at the roles it fulfills, and it can fulfill multiple roles. If Deoxys remains unbanned then I will use it on every team I build. I don't want to do that.
I am not going to bother assessing your approvals or dissaprovals of other peoples votes in depth, some I have mentioned to you but some not. But I feel your bias toward OU votes is ridiculous. The onus of proof may be on our side, but I think your willingness to read between the lines and make assumptions about the validity of OU arguments makes no sense in light of your dismissals of Uber arguments.
Have a nice day.
I know the biggest calling point of Deoxys E being uber was that it eliminates a play style and I know you (Jumpman) discounted it but I really think you should reconsider that point, and some other points within the votes. I'm not going to argue for them since obviously since they had their chance to fix up their posts and argue about it and the shitstorm on stark only went on because the people arguing that it is uber did not make a good solid point that considered all aspects of the game, and I'm burnt out on debating it (hence my "break" from Smogon.... oh how these always work out)
Every argument shows that people do have different definition of things being uber or not. I'm not saying that I agree with some of these arguments or that it is my argument but I just feel as if your rejection scheme was a bit too harsh. I do have faith in most of these players that they are not simply saying Deoxys E is "uber" because "they don't want to deal with it" but truly because Deoxys E is too powerful and I just feel as if you sort of pat them on the head and went "well that's nice" and completely disregarded their definition
I think that your method of vote counting completely defeats the point of vote counting. Everyone has a different definition of uber at this stage in the game, and just because "you don't agree with it" doesn't mean that it is suddenly not uber. The point of the public vote counting was to get into the minds of everyone's definition of uber and what is not and count them accordingly, not discount them only because I disagree with their definition of uber. In this case of course it is easier to argue that it is OU than it is uber (as I touched upon my post) and how you counted your votes really show that.
If we're going to narrow down on the votes we really should decide whether or not we appreciate certain impacts on the metagame, or a clear definition of uber that we can use all these votes with. If we do have a definition of Uber then we can use that to justify everything, but at this point, we don't.
Not that it matters at this point since the community did call for Deoxys E being OU, so it will be OU, and I'm not going to bother convincing anyone anymore
Every argument shows that people do have different definition of things being uber or not. I'm not saying that I agree with some of these arguments or that it is my argument but I just feel as if your rejection scheme was a bit too harsh. I do have faith in most of these players that they are not simply saying Deoxys E is "uber" because "they don't want to deal with it" but truly because Deoxys E is too powerful and I just feel as if you sort of pat them on the head and went "well that's nice" and completely disregarded their definition
I think that your method of vote counting completely defeats the point of vote counting. Everyone has a different definition of uber at this stage in the game, and just because "you don't agree with it" doesn't mean that it is suddenly not uber. The point of the public vote counting was to get into the minds of everyone's definition of uber and what is not and count them accordingly, not discount them only because I disagree with their definition of uber. In this case of course it is easier to argue that it is OU than it is uber (as I touched upon my post) and how you counted your votes really show that.
If we're going to narrow down on the votes we really should decide whether or not we appreciate certain impacts on the metagame, or a clear definition of uber that we can use all these votes with. If we do have a definition of Uber then we can use that to justify everything, but at this point, we don't.
Not that it matters at this point since the community did call for Deoxys E being OU, so it will be OU, and I'm not going to bother convincing anyone anymore
ok
if you felt this way i wish you had voiced it two weeks ago before we decided to go with the voting concept, mainly because it was have saved me and tangerine an awful lot of time. i cannot express how tedious a task it was to tally, "objectively" analyze and sufficiently reply to nearly 100 votes on a topic as "down-the-middle" as this
there are three pokes in the weighted top-25 that are not "dedicated counters" to dx-s in bronzong, metagross and cresselia, and jirachi isn't too far behind at #28 (though i'd like to hear your definition of that term). so when you say "I prefer a more aggressive style of battling than a lot of people", i have a hard time believing your refusal to use any of the four above pokemon is anything but a personal and selfish choice (you can take "selfish" with a pejorative connotation if you want to, but i'd ask you to take it literally), since these are all very viable pokemon
the difference between salamence and dx-s according to you is SR, which is valid, but we have no idea of know how uber it is until we test a metagame without stealth rock. salamence may be every bit as uber or borderline uber as dx-s is now, but there's no way of knowing this without testing an SR-less metagame so i dont know why you're making this point
the same was true of maggy and duggy in advance to an extent. and "The argument that not every team has Deoxys" is shitty regardless, this has applied to a much greater degree for wobbuffet over the past five months on the ladder and it was overwhelmingly vote banned anyway
ok, what if i wanted to use an all focus sash team? it's a viable team style, right? it gives you the option of attacking twice many times if you're faster, and at least once if you're slower, just as choice scarf allows pokemon to get off an additional attack that they may not otherwise be able to if it weren't for their item. however, it's thwarted by sandstream and sr and spikes which are pretty common and easy to employ.
using your logic, why wouldn't we ban most or all field hazards or the pokemon that bring them into play in the interests of making another style of play viable? an immediate answer to this is that "stall would die out" but that isn't necessarily true since many elements of stall: toxic, resttalk, and pressure, leech seed and inherently bulky pokemon would still be left intact, so why not consider getting rid of one or more field hazards to make a focus sash style of play viable?
what about baton pass teams? skarmory, gyarados and zapdos largely stop those in their track, but it's a viable playing style? why wouldn't you want to promote this as well?
again, i think this is a selfish reason
ok
hip, the point is that scarf heatran fills a niche that scarf deoxys-s does not, and that is heatran, item/speed aside, being able to actually switch into these pokemon to check them (making it an actual counter), where dx-s, item/speed aside, can't really switch into any of the pokemon it checks (meaning it's not a counter). the idea is that scarf dx-s does indeed not make other scarfers redundant necessarily, because a scarf pokemon can still serve another purpose effectively. if you want one pokemon that at least checks yanmega and scizor and also checks lucario, and you are considering between heatran and dx-s, you are going to pick the former
Secondly it is only a situational case. It's obvious that Hippowdon is a better Tyranitar counter than Lugia, but generally Lugia is considered so much the better wall that it is Uber and Hippowdon is not.
Let's for the sake of argument compare Deoxys with Garchomp. I think most people will agree that Garchomp is the best Scarfer as a cleaner and revenge killer. Deoxys is faster than Garchomp, so much so that Deoxys can run Choice Specs while Garchomp runs Scarf and still outspeed it.
come on hip, you know specs dx-s is locked into one move which immediately throws the 189 vs 114 damage comparison out the window. you seem to be ignoring the fact that pursuit users will murder it generally if it kills something with psycho boost, a feat which will probably plainly indicate it's Speced. I would argue that the main reason people don't bother with Specs DX-S is because of pursuit users, which is the same reason people don't bother with ScarfZam or SpecsZam. But for the comparison:
479 speed/433 SpA (Psycho Boost/SuperPower/IB/TB)
480 speed/405 SpA (Psychic/Focus Blast/Trick/GK)
These are comparable enough, in my opinion, to underline my point that there's no real reason to believe that Spex-S (lol) would feature much more than Zam has.
if this is true, and you state yourself that "Deoxys is the best revenge killer", then it would stand to reason that you would expect it to be one of the last two pokemon standing...but when you say "I cannot stop it without a dedicated counter"...are you actually still refusing to use "dedicated counter" or a counter at all?
ok
then dont
or take a page out of ipl's book and do, so it can actually get banned. i actually can't believe i'm hearing this argument from you after my repeated statements that "the community has failed to take initiative" which is the entire fucking reason dx-s is not yet considered uber
you're going to have to point out specific examples that denomstrate a bias or i am going to completely dismiss this
again, that is the entire point behind bold voting. if people are incapable of making convincing arguments, i don't see a reason to allow their votes. if we are going to have the consensus that bold voting is the best way to arrive at the answer, we sure as hell better be prepared to deal with the consequences of bold voting and processes by which bold voting works.
and yes, 'i'. when you ask a person to analyze votes beyond yea and nay, it becomes subjective and up to the discretion of that one person. besides you nobody else volunteered to tally these votes, so you and i are the only ones who know what a responsibility it is and what an utter timesink it is. and i'll remind you that i didnt even fucking want to have bold voting in the first place but chaos asked me to—i've opposed voting from the beginning.
it is therefore incredibly lame that i'm taking any shit at all for spending half my day to administrate a process i personally opposed from the start, one supposed to be both a faster and a better way to get to the answer than what i proposed (which, "coincidentally", is something else chaos asked me to do and something else that took up a good portion of my time, the IS "Metagame Management" thread from which the Order of Operations came). as it turned out, this was a process that myself and you were the only people in the community whose time was significantly taken up because of, negating the "faster" as far as i personally am concerned. and now the "better" is being questioned too because you guys think I was biased?
seriously, do you understand how unbelievably fucking weak that is? i was asked to come up with a process, it was rejected, and i didnt want us to use the new process because it was too subjective, but i volunteered/was asked to do the new process i opposed anyway, putting aside any personal differences for the sake of the community...but i get shit for all the time i spent using the new process for the same reason i opposed it in the first place? fuck that shit.
i honestly do not even recall anyone's vote having "they don't want to deal with it" as its argument, even though that's a fine reason to reject a vote
as i told hip you are going to have to show me evidence to this end or i have no choice but to completely disregard it. further, at least i gave explanations for each and every vote i tallied—i'm pretty sure i can ask you "why" about all the votes you counted uber and we can get into a nice, long, utterly pointless debate. you only bothered to explain the reasoning behind a mere 30% of the votes you counted as uber for dx-s, and more than half of those "explanations" consisted of "borderline" or "unclear". I'm not really sure where you get off even beginning to question my reasoning when you hardly bothered to offer any of your own for the votes you counted.
Looks like a pretty good reason not to have gone through with bold voting on whether or not something is uber before we nailed down a clear definition of the word, doesn't it?
It sure as hell matters in the future, since Garchomp is every bit as borderline as DX-S is. If we honestly think that two months on a non-Garchomp ladder and then comparing those experiences to two months on the regular ladder when answering the question "Which metagame do you like better?" (this method has expressly been proposed by chaos) is going to be less subjective than this was, we are kidding ourselves.
Voiced it thousands of times. Look pretty much at any of my posts in PR.
These would be dedicated counters. Metagross doesnt counter Deoxys when at lesss than 70%. Bronzong about 50%, and Jirachi about 70% or so I could pump their Special Defense, but that only makes them more of a dedicated counter. Cresselia defeats the whole point of using an offensive style team. Bronzong is justifiable only because it has Explosion, but Cresselia gives a chance for far to many pokemon to switch in and set up a substitute, and kill off at least one of my pokemon. This style of team can not deal with that.
Sounds like a gimmick to me. What benefit is there in using focus sash with other focus sash users? There is a reason all out attack teams work well, and that is because they can prevent set ups and revenge kill when necessary. And they have to be all all attacking teams, because they cant deal with pokemon setting up. Preventing a set up is vital, because you cant counter most things effectively. Using Cresselia does not work with this style of team.
I dont see why you dont understand my argument. I am saying you need to consider everything. So when you say a focus sash team cant work in a spikes SS SR environment therefore you must ban all three of them, you havent considered the teams that thrive on using SR Spikes and SS. And those teams are not all Stall teams. I mean, my sweeper heavy team needs SR to knock out Focus Sash, and deal with Salamence. What type of play style relies on Deoxys and no other pokemon. Given that Deoxys reduces the number of likely options in pokmon useage (which is what the whole second part of my post was about) and it also reduces options in terms of style of team, it is clearly increasing centralisation beyond the point it increases it by its addition to OU.
This is the whole point of a vote. I would argue that if anyone else was as good as me at pokemon they would see the clear advantages of this style of play, and would find themselves in the same position as me. I know you didnt like the vote idea to begin with, but it is a vote. It isnt selfish, this is what I think would be the issue for everyone if they were honest to themselves while building a team, and were smart enough to know how useful Deoxys-S is. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I were better at pokemon this wouldnt be an issue for me, but I dont think so.
Given that you need both a yanmega/scizor/lucario counter and a revenge killer, I would strongly recommend using Heatran and Deoxys and dropping something else in your team. Because Deoxys is that strong. If you go with Scarftran then you have the constant fear of your locked in move biting you in the ass.
Comparable except that Deoxys does half as much damage again, has better defenses, has a 100% hitting fighting move and learns every move Zam does except trick and more. Yes Pursuit would prevent me using Specs Deoxys, but I wouldnt use Specs Deoxys anyway, I dunno if you hadnt read my whole post when you replied to this but you really missed the point. Life Orb Deoxys is miles and miles better than Specs Deoxys, It really only has to fear Pursuit from Metagross or Scizor. Because the Specs / Scarf comparisson was only being made to prove a point, there was no reason to consider pursuit, since Deoxys destroys most pursuiters.
What counter is there that isnt a dedicated counter. That is my whole point, there is nothing. The example with Garchomp was a confusing one, but it was based on a Deoxys free metagame, to demonstrate the huge advantage Deoxys has over other cleaners. It's also convenient that my dedicated Deoxys counter is Bronzong. I cant have a dedicated counter to two pokemon in one, so what often happens is I lost when against both of them. Obviously with Deoxys I have nothing to fear from scarfchomp.
I can't believe I'm actually hearing this from you. I have shit to do besides play pokemon, but I am doing what I can. That post you dismissed and the other posts I made in that topic that you ignored took me hours to write as well, and I cant believe you would stand there whining about a lack of appreciation for your counting the votes despite you utter contempt for the effort I have put in. I built my team with Wobbuffet and I took shit for it constantly. Little whiney fucks calling me a cheater every fucking battle. I dont want to do it. I said it already. We have a vote so I voted, but you dismissed my argument because you disagreed with it despite the fact it is a true reflection of my experience. I mean if I had gone on ladder and won a lot with Deoxys it would hardly be proof of Deoxys's uberness, because it has up until now been rare enough that I could just ignore it and I'll still make the top ten in about 2 days. I'm sorry I'm unhappy about the fact you think my opinion is invalid, but I know what I am talking about. You are wrong Jumpman.
Have a nice day.
As much as both you and I didn't really like the method that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the most of it - this is why I actually called you out on it because it just feels a bit too biased, and I'm nearly certain I'm not the only one to think so. I don't mean to undermine the effort that you put into counting these votes but I just feel as if you can be a bit more objective with the vote counting.
That is the main reason you eliminated some of the argument, I feel. This is actually the main counter argument against all the "It totally destroys a specific style of play" - the fact that "they don't want to adjust/change their play style", or the "selfish" remarks that you threw out.
I explained my reasoning behind what kind of arguments that I thought were "valid" and "invalid" in the beginning of the thread. yes, I haven't put in as much effort as you, mostly because if I did, I would have probably ended up in the same place as you (being TOO subjective)
How can you say that people don't have a different opinion of uber when there's the entire "Hey look statistics don't show it's uber" and "statistics don't mean crap" arguments flying around?
The fact that no one bothered responding to my definition of uber post pretty much shows how much interest there is in clearing up the definition - "not much".
This is why I accepted arguments such as "It undermines choice scarfers" or "It destroys a playing style" or even "it is too powerful" assuming they explained what they meant enough since I'm not going to guess at what their definition of uber is and I have no right to considering no one has the universally "correct" definition at this point (although I really like my definition) and this is one reason that I tried so hard to nail down definitions in stark and everywhere else.
Sure, their arguments "may be weak" but I believe that if we are indeed going to "count votes", it is for the purpose of "there is no clear stance so let the majority rule", and hope the biases and poor definitions even each side out.
I'm not sure what kind of evidence you might want of this because in my opinion it was pretty clear reading through the posts.
I would argue that we only did the voting because of the bold voting. This is why I actually bothered responding to the entire "narrowing votes down" thing. IMO, only the retarded reasonings shouldn't have their say (the reasons I rejected that clearly show the user has no idea what they're talking about) or people who did a really really poor job explaining their stance... but not because "their arguments are invalid" unless the argument is indeed objectively invalid (like the "boring" argument, "it has counters" arguments, etc) instead of subjectively invalid (elimination of play style? is it really that bad? etc)
If this is the case the best we can do is to drill into their heads (let this be a clear example) that shitty arguments will not be accepted. Also, aren't we only accepted "high ranked battlers" for this purpose? I don't feel as if it'll be that big of a problem, really, although if we do get a good definition of what is uber and what is not we dont even have to bother with the bold voting process. (hint hint go nitpick my definition of uber)
I'm going to stop now, sorry to waste your time, (because this is a complete waste of time since Deoxys E will be in OU despite what we all think of it because it isn't clear enough to everyone it is uber yet), I just felt as if this should be said :|
Probably because it's too late now. It should have been done before the voting.Tangerine said:
I've been saying to formalise a definition for months, and in fact I even formalised one myself. Not everybody agreed with it, but at least it would have given us some way to talk about "uber" with a common understanding.
You didn't even post in the definition of uber thread yourself until after the voting was underway.
There is no reason to clear up the definition right now, you're right. Everyone has a "different" definition and draws the line at different points and in the end that's what the voting scheme accomplishes.
I already explained why I didn't post in the definition of uber thread - "it was dead". And I was completely right in thinking it was that way, it seems.
Gee Gyarados is not a Heracross counter at 60%. Gliscor is not a Heracross counter at 30%. Nidoqueen is not a Heracross counter at 60%. Weezing is not a Heracross counter at 40%.
In the five minutes it took me to search the 19 threads in this forum it is clear that you did not once bring this issue up. What I *did* stumble upon again was your "Honestly I dont really have the energy for this forum" you posted on May 29 in this thread that probably explains why I wasn't able to find anything even remotely relating to your desire for only badgeholders to vote on these issues, which I of course am only bothering to paste here because you actually challenged me to look at your posts as if this isn't one of three forums on Smogon I pay very close attention to.
Then use a different style of team. It's that simple. I don't know why you think your "I don't want to do that" argument has any merit whatsoever in the interests of what is the right thing to do for the competitive pokemon community.
We can argue preference all you want, but I feel that Choice Scarf is gimmicky just like you think Focus Sash is. And gimmickry aside, how do you know Focus Sash teams wouldn't work well? They aren't viable right now because of field hazards as I mentioned in the last post. Just like all out attacking teams aren't viable now because of Deoxys-S, which is the reason I even raised the issue. It's not a coincidence.
I understand your argument perfectly, I just don't know why you think it should apply to Focus Sash teams. And I didn't say "ban all three of them", I explicitly said "most or all" then "why not consider getting rid of one or more field hazards to make a focus sash style of play viable?" If your argument is to have the most viable styles of play, I don't know why you're writing off Focus Sash teams as a gimmick. I have a feeling it's because you've explicitly stated you "prefer a more aggressive style of battling than a lot of people", but I'll let you answer that for yourself.
Anyway, your "sweeper heavy team" style wouldn't become obsolete if SR were banned, it would just be a little more difficult to work out...maybe. I don't know, and don't pretend to know all the effects a SR-less metagame would have. I *do* knw that if your argument is "It is my opinion that having a wide variety of team styles shoule be part of the goal of a good ruleset", you shouldn't necessarily be writing off a Focus Sash team as a gimmick. Finally, I've already addressed the "Given that Deoxys reduces the number of likely options in pokmon useage" phenomenon—all of the pokemon in May's top-20 that popularly used a Scarf as one of their options became MORE popular from December to May in weighted usage with the exception of Tyranitar which has stayed at #5.
Hip, I'm going to point this out one more time. These are your words on why you want DX-S banned: "My main reason is in construction of my own teams." Honestly and literally, who do you think you are? You're one person. One battler. Why in the world should the entire competitive battling community be affected by what one person prefers for his own teams? That is selfish, and I am baffled as to why you think it is not. You may or may not be taking "selfish" pejoratively as I referenced in the last post, but you shouldn't be. It doesn't make you a horrible person to be selfish about some things. But in the context of deciding what is right for thousands and thousands of people who partkae in competitive battle, it is just not right. We aren't making these policies just so you, Hipmonlee, can continue to use the offensive teams you prefer.
Ok. I never said that Heatran should actually replace DX-S. However, if I feel that I have five pokemon that adequately carry out my strategy, and I'm looking for a sixth that will check/counter Yanmega, Scizor and Lucario, and I don't have Heatran or DX-S on my team, I'm obviously going with Heatran. To take one of the other five off my team "Because Deoxys is that strong" would be silly.
And I don't know how you can say "If you go with Scarftran then you have the constant fear of your locked in move biting you in the ass" when you just went on for literally seven paragraphs about why Specs DX-S is better than any Scarfer in spite of the undeniable fact that a Psychic-type locked into pretty much any non-fighting move is Pursuit fodder (or non-Psychic move for Pursuit Heracross). If you want to convince me you're right, go ahead and actually use Specs DX-S and prove it's better than ScarfChomp. If not, then kindly stop talking about it.
There was no reason to post about Specs DX-S then and you know it. I'm not going to ignore something you posted (you'll realize I'm quoting every last work of your posts, as I always do in "debates"), even if it's just to say "ok". Do you honestly think I don't get you point? I know that you said "Specs Deoxys is generally more effective than other Scarfers and yet it isnt even Deoxys's best set for this purpose" but I am still going to point out that I think you are wrong because of what you yourself said: "Pursuit would prevent me using Specs Deoxys." Why even bring it up then? "It's kind of a convoluted way of making my point it's true" is kind of an understatement, it was invalid for reasons you admit to yourself. Scarf DX-S isn't viable.
It seems that you're implying that Bronzong doesn't do anything else besdes counter DX-S, which is wrong. And since when can't you have a "dedicated counter" to two pokemon in one? Blissey walls dozens of special threats without batting an eyelash. You are actually implying that any given team can only counter six pokemon at most, so I would appreciate it if you could clarify because you know that isn't true.
Ok, Wobbuffet got banned so I don't know what your gripe is there. And like I said, it's not fair to the tallyers. Next time follow the rules instead of expecting the tallyers to read every last word of a 17-page thread. Maybe then you could have discounted my own post, as I would have and said I would have, if I hadn't known I'd made a few more, and I wouldn't have been able to fault you for it because the actual post with the bolded vote did not have a valid argument. I sure as hell wouldn't be making a big deal about it as if it were a close vote, lol. You're making a huge deal out of this considering you, even after I asked to show me other evidence, are just talking about your vote, as if your vote couts for the 21 it would take to actually close the gap according to how I tallied it. That's ridiculous.
If you wanted 100% fairness maybe you should have volunteered to tally yourself, but I guess that's asking too much from someone who has "shit to do besides play pokemon". And just so we're clear, this is the exact reason I said "you don't get to argue with me" at the end of my tallies, because people like you who didn't put in the effort like Tang and I did in a long, tedious, virtually thankless task are going to bitch about your singular votes as if they matter in the grand scheme of things. Honestly, take your attitude somewhere else if you really have other things to do. Don't waste my time with your gripe if you are going to continue to argue with me about your own vote and your own vote only, as if you, Hipmonlee, should get to play with your offensive teams no matter what.
This is the fourth and last time I am going to ask anyone to point out instances where you think I demonstrated bias. The next time anyone calls me out on having been biased but doesn't point to evidence I am going to infract for Staff Disrespect because it is unbelievably insulting and cowardly.
Point it out.
Huh? What difference does it make whether you decide to give reasoning on your "valid" or "invalid" decisions? Besides that fact that it conveniently saves you from the kind of crap I am taking from you and Hip, of course.
I...didn't say that at all, anywhere. Where are you getting that?
And "in my opinion" I wasn't biased. Funny what happens when you ask a person to tally votes based on their opinion. I am not going to count argument I think are weak, though, even if you are. That doesn't help anything. What if there are 50 more weak arguments on one side than the other? What then? You get a messed up tally, that's what.
I don't think your way does us any more good than mine when you consider what I just said about how allowing some weak arguments can easily skew the tally when they aren't equal on both sides.
ok...I think I've made it pretty clear that I personally won't accept shitty votes in the future (if I ever even do this again, which is a pretty big "if" considering the crap I've taken for my efforts). Whether or not anyone agrees with my firmness is another issue, you guys don't have to.
Maybe I'm a bit off the beaten path right now, but if the debate is still so fierce and close about Deoxys-E, perhaps more testing is needed before making a decision. Perhaps in a few months when it comes up for debate again there will be a larger margain for the victorious party.