OU SM OU Discussion Thread

[ausma]

This thread is dedicated to the discussion of the SM (USUM) OU metagame. Discussion topics span from such things as metagame developments, set innovations, and general observations you have noticed as of late. You are welcome to post anything you like as far as the metagame goes, with a few simple rules.

Rules:

• Do not ask simple questions here; instead, post them to our "Simple Question, Simple Answer" thread.
• Do not post one-liners that contribute nothing to the discussion. We do not ask that you write giant paragraphs with each post; we simply ask that you ensure your post has substance and adds to the discussion.
• Posts should bear in mind the standard clauses, mods, and bans that are in place for the SM OU metagame:

Clauses & Mods

Clauses
Species Clause: Limit of one on each Pokemon.
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned.
Moody Clause: Moody is banned.
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned.
Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned.

Mods
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
HP Percentage Mod: HP is shown in percentages

Move Bans
Baton Pass

Ability Bans
Arena Trap
Power Construct
Shadow Tag

Here are some prompts to help guide your thinking:

• Compared to what we've seen back when Gen 7 was the current generation, what innovations have you noticed, and how do they affect the meta/teambuilding in your opinion?
• What are your personal favorite Pokemon to use in the metagame, and why?
• What current cores do you find to be strong or fun to use?
• Do you like the current metagame, or find it to be well balanced? Why or why not?

Remember that at any point, moderators have the discretion to intervene or remove posts as necessary.

 

[Katy]

Guess Im kickin' this thread off with a short discussion about the SM OU Metagame and to answer some of ausma's question:

What are your personal favorite Pokemon to use in the metagame, and why?

My personal favorite Pokemon in SM OU are:

its high speed tier, dark and water typing with spikes is just really good and i like how it can force switches to not letting it get up the battle bond to gain an increase in its stats. its overall suefulness in weakening teams with either hard hitting moves or crippling them down with spikes is very admireable and it speaks for itself, that this pokemon is on the top of its game. it is one of the most terrifying pokemon to deal with especially in the lategame when the opposition finds themselves weakened by it. its strong priority move in water shuriken is also able to grant it with clear revengekill potential against faster threats such as choice scarf users.

garchomp initially wasnt used that much in SM OU but it rose up in mid to late SM OU periods and cemented itself as a devestating pokemon with either z-outrage or z-stone edge where it can nuke away the opposition. my favorite set is the continental crush one, which is capable of nuking everything away without the drawback of a fairy-type soaking the devestating dragon up due to their immunities. it is also effective as a stelth rock setter with either an offensive set or a defensive set, its pretty versatile and granted with a lot of versatility which a lot of teams appreciate.

this pokemon is terrifying with a plethora of sets, be it the swords dance with play rough, sucker punch, and knock off set, which very well can find itself on hyper offense even, or the all out attack set or the lure with focus punch to pummel through heatran, this pokemon - despite its low speed tier - is a devestating wallbreaker with unresisted coverage especially on the all out attacking set, being able to intimidate prior to mega'ing also is pretty nice, especially for hyper offense teams like dual screens, where its all around bulk gets even increased on both sides of the spectrum. this pokemon should always be kept in mind in the teambuilding process same with the next few pokemon, i want to talk about.

magearna is truly a fantastic pokemon throughout the entirety of SM OU; with assault vest it can act as a special sponge to special wallbreakers like mega alakazam, tapu lele, tapu koko, and it can also check ash greninja which is very appreciated. but this isnt all this amazing, wonderful steel-fairy has to offer. other sets such as dual dance and boltbeam found itself on dual screen and veil teams alike especially with teampartnhers like mega tyranitar and suicune in the early gen of SM OU. shift gear with 3 attacks and a shuca berry or a z move can also work quite well with its z moves ranging from twinkle tackle to gigavolt havoc. magearna i saw recently on builds with tapu lele, mega alakazam, landorus-t and kartana, as an amazing special sponge and a tool to gain a slower momentum with volt switch, which can bring in all these aforementioned attackers in safely.

this pokemon has it all, from SM OU to SS OU its a great and fantastic pokemon, be it as a choice band user, a swords dance user or even with choice scarf to cement itself as speed control, although mor niche in SS OU, but in SM OU it is a great set to pick up a decent amount of faster threats off and scaring them out, such as mega alakazam, tapu koko, lati-twins, and ash greninja. however its big weakness is getting chipped down quite easily by rocky helmet users such as tornadus-t and with softchecks such as heatran, celesteela, and checks such as zapdos its recommendable to pair it up with pokemon which can wear those down for kartana in the long run. my favorite set personally is the chocie band set with knock off, leaf blace, smart strike, and sacred sword, as a pokemon with 181 attack coupled with a choice band just simply hits like a truck and its wallbreaking power is therefore terrifying.

mega medicham is one of my favorite pokemon on teams with rotom-w, landorus-t, magearna, tornadus-t, and a niche option in tapu lele; the former providing it with essential support due to momentum and being capable to cover mega medichams weaknesses and the latter -- Tapu Lele -- can have a special role with powering it up mega medichams zen headbutt alongside with the feature that mega medicham is less prone to getting walled by one of its best counters in mega sableye. i think mega medicham and tapu lele is worth a shot!

versatility, splashability, momentum gainer, suicide lead, defensive pivot, ground- and electric-immunity simulatiniously there is almost nothing which this pokemon cant do. landorus-t is great in checking pokemon such as mega charizard x, mega emdicham, mega mawile, and (mega) garchomp. furthermore it can check (mega) tyranitar pretty well and is a great option on teams which want speed control and a blanket check two in one. landorus-t is the epitome of great pokemon in SM OU and i cant imagine SM OU without thinking about landorus-t as one fo the very first pokemon, which comes to my mind.

honorable mentions:

What current cores do you find to be strong or fun to use?

as i have said above, tapu lele and mega medicham are worth a try, other great cores are mega tyranitar + excadrill on sdand based teams alongside celesteela, heatran with mega charizard y in which heatran can nuke under the sun with firium z the opposition away is also a great core and even fire-resists will take a huge chunk of damage by its firium z. ferrothorn, mega latias, alongside clefable is also worth a try for bulkier builds and is timeless and effective with haze-toxapex as a teampartner. a last core i want to talk about is mega mawile + rotom-w + garchomp, as they cover each other up greatly with garchomp offering supportive hazard-setting packed with a dangerous z move, alongside rotom-w which offers itself as a ground-immune alongside garchomp as an electric-immune and it can support mega mawile further with will-o-wisp / thunder wave, and volt switch, mega mawile packs the punch further with this set i have been trying out recently with a lot of success:

Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Thunder Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance​

Do you like the current metagame, or find it to be well balanced? Why or why not?

from my perspective the metagame in SM OU is fairly balanced, sure there are pokemon like ash greninja, mega medicham, mega mawile, z-move garchomp, magearna, z-move landorus-t and heatran which we all have to include in our throught process while teambuilding alongside with tapu lele, mega alakazam and some lesser used pokemon, which still are great in their own rights. but i think SM OU is pretty balanced and most of the time, covering up most of the aforementioned pokemon isnt that difficult in my opinion.

that was all from me, hope you had fun reading this essay and have a great day everyone! :)​

 

[Clem]

Good morning everyone! I wanted to talk about a Pokemon that I love to use in this metagame, being Mega Camerupt (and perhaps other Pokemon in the future). I'm gonna share sets, spreads and teams for every Pokemon that I'm going to talk about, as well as detailed explanation on what they do, what their niche is, etc. Have fun reading, and sorry in advance for possible spelling mistakes :]



The (first?) Pokemon I want to talk about is Camerupt Mega. Camel has a unique and very interesting typing, being Fire/Ground. This allows it to be a very good Electric-type switch-in in general, stuffing the likes of Zapdos and Tapu Koko alike. These mons are to be used as free entry for Camel, since its lack of recovery and common weaknesses to Ground and Water can be somewhat of a problem when it comes to bringing the monster in. But perhaps the biggest pro about using Camerupt is how good of a Magearna switch-in it is. Defensive and AV Magearna can't touch Camerupt for super effective damage at all, and Camerupt can very easily threaten it back or set-up rocks freely on its face.
Camerupt also has incredible stats, with a bulk of 70/100/105 and a sky-high Special Attack of 145, boosted to even crazier levels by Sheer Force. Its dual STAB allows it to very easily bypass FerroPex and CelesPex, and its impressivly wide support movepool make it really tough to switch into in general.
Common switch-ins to Camerupt include Chansey and Latias, making an absolutely terrific partner. Furthermore, Camerupt's access to Nature Power (booted by Sheer Force), makes and very good partners, giving it Electric and Grass coverage respectively, and can also be used as a great teammate, providing Misty Terrain for Status immunity and Moonblast as Nature Power, for Camel to hit Garchomp, Latias and Latios, Kommo-o, and even the rare Hydreigon.

CamelVile + KB & Endure Zone



This team is fairly simple to understand. Camerupt weakens the likes of Fini, Ferro, Pex, Magearna, Scizor for Kyurem-Black, while KB can switch into and threaten a lot of Bulky Waters, like Rotom and Pex (if in terrain), while keeping Dragons away from the field. Weavile, as stated before, is a very good partner, Pursuit trapping Pokemon such as Latias and Chansey to put them in range of Camerupt, or repeated attacks.

Camerupt's EV spread allows it to eat a +1 Psychic from Mega-Alakazam, KO-ing it back with Fire Blast, or Earth Power with a bit of chip beforehand. Speed is there for Toxapex, and max SpA investment with a Modest nature maximizes the damage output. Nature Power turns into Moonblast in Misty Terrain, pressuring mons such as Kommo-o, Garchomp and especially Latias. (252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Nature Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 226-268 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), but Rock Slide is a decent option as well, hitting Pokemon like Charizard-Y and Volcarona.

Magnezone's set is a bit odd, it's meant to bluff Z to some extent, but it's more importantly our Lele switch-in, Zone can easily pivot on Choiced Lele to then trap it with Weavile, or let Camerupt in. Custap is nice to snipe Kartana and Lele, while being useful for offensive Heatran as well. Speed allows it to outspeed and beat Mega-Mawile 1v1, and Defense makes it bulkier on the physical side to better take on the aforementioned Mawile, as well as Kartana.

Camel + Bulu & Magearna



Camerupt + Bulu is a tried and true core in the SM OU metagame, Bulu provides Camel with some passive recovery, a weakened Earthquake from opposing mons, and Grass coverage with Nature Power, while Camerupt can easily switch into Pokemon that threaten Bulu, like Celesteela, Skarmory, Scizor, Heatran to some extent. Camerupt pair very nicely with SG Magearna as well, weakening common answers like Heatran, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and even Chansey and Gastrodon. Endure Chomp and RH Tornadus round up the team very nicely, dealing with the Kartana weakness, while Jirachi provides speed, a Zam+Lele switch in, and Healing Wish support for another round of terror with Magearna. I'm not going to go into much detail about each spread since they're fairly classic, but Garchomp's Speed allows it to outspeed Jolly Swampert and Bisharp, while outspeeding most variants of SpD Rachi and Offensive Heatran. Tornadus' HP and Defense investment ensures that it takes 2 Banded Leaf Blade from Kartana, or 2 Scarf Leaf Blade in terrain.

Sun Trick Room (yes you read that correctly)



Trust me, this is the funniest team you'll ever use. This weird Sun-TrickRoom team is based around Mega Camerupt and Trick Room Victini, with Sun support from Torkoal, and Speed control and Electric Terrain from Scarf Tapu Koko. This is more of a fun/less serious team, but it works fairly well, and throwing out Sun-boosted, Sheer Force STAB Fire Blast from Modest Camel is the coolest thing ever. Koko helps with the rain match-up, outspeeding even Jolly Swampert under the rain, and Venusaur can end games by itself, usually after Victini and Camerupt punched open a hole in the opposing defensive core. This team is hilariously weak to Garchomp, which is why Camerupt runs Hidden Power Ice, but I'm not sure how to improve such a team.

I hope this post made you wanna give Camel a try, it's a niche mon, with its fair share of issues in the current Metagame, but it does alright against some of the top threats, while providing utility with its defensive capabilities and support options like Yawn, Toxic, Rocks, and even Will-O-Wisp, being the only Pokemon in the game with an Elec immunity, and access to burn. There are quite a number of possibilities with Camerupt, and even if it requires some team support, and a bit of experience from the player, it's a rewarding Pokemon that will almost always do something useful for your team. It's not as splasheable of a Fire type as Heatran, nor does it have the infinite possibilities of Landorus, but it's not a bad Pokemon, and shouldn't be overlooked because of its weaknesses and low speed.

I'm probably going to update this post later today, or during the week, to share more teams and niche mons.
Have a nice day :]

 

[Red Raven]

Might as well answer these since I've been playing mostly gen vii for the last two weeks

• What are your personal favorite Pokemon to use in the metagame, and why?

has to be my all time favorite gen vii mon. There is nothing more satisfying than switching Tyranitar in against a dark pulse spamming Greninja and eating forty percent of its life as it tries to run away. I prefer my Tyranitar with earthquake so I can hit Pex and when it tries to run away, it dies. I love this mon. It just pursuits a lot of things to death. It also makes choiced Tapu Lele seriously reconsider clicking hp fire or psychic stabs because if it doesn't, well

is my second favorite mon. Nuking something with its z move is so much fun. It straight up destroys Bulu and Fini while making life for Landorus miserable as well. While I love z outrage more, z stone edge is a lot less riskier to use. It's also the most reliable stealth rocker I've ever used so whenever I use it, I am usually pretty confident that I will get rocks up as when compared to Lando or Heatran where I want to be clicking a different move instead

this is probably the best definition of brute force. Specs hydro miss just powers thru its supposed checks, unless it is av Tangrowth. Spikes is also very nice and the fact that it checks even faster offensive pokemon is really nice

probably my favorite defensive pokemon that can be used in the tier. Seriously. This mon walls everything from Medicham, Lando, Garchomp, Zard X, Loppunny and even Hawlucha. It even baits in Greninja and punishes it with thunder wave. It's dull face unwavering against most of the physical attackers makes this very valuable for me and it's always one of the first mons that comes to mind whenever I build a team

aside from its sick design, it can act as a semi stall breaker, which is nice because I hate stall. Mix chomp burns metal bird to nothingness and creates a huge hole in a stall team. Against non stall, it's russian roullete time where nothing really likes eating a draco meteor. Like with its regular form, I can pretty much get sr up all the time just because I am comfortable with the pokemon

• What current cores do you find to be strong or fun to use?

+ is my main core that I use, mainly because I love pursuiting everything that can be pursuited

/ + because it fuels my sadistic desires of watching pokemon lose their hp just by switching in

+ + because it walls nearly the entire tier. Chansey even keeps Slowbro healthy via heal bell which makes it tougher to deal with

+ aside from the sadistic desire of watching mons lose their hp, it's much more satisfying when that happens agonizingly slow with toxic spikes. Probably the most solid defensive core I used with Tangrowth being able to reliable scout the intentions of strong wallbreakers

+ I just find this fun to use. Chomp provides huge power while Zam provides speed control

+ now this core just straight up makes stall completely miserable as there is no way they'll be able to burn Garchomp before it takes out one of their mons

• Do you like the current metagame, or find it to be well balanced? Why or why not?

I love this metagame and it's my favorite. Playing gen vii makes me feel like every battle has a lot at stake. One wrong move and it's all over mainly because z moves allows mons to brute force their way through their own checks. I started playing this gen again after I hated gen viii and I found a new appreciation for the mechanics

I think the metagame is pretty well balanced. There really isn't a threat that stands out as too much while everything can be manageable as long as you don't screw up, or the rng doesn't screw you over. The immense power level of this generation can make the metagame feel very tough but it's nothing too severe. If I had to describe it in one word, it would be intense, just because of the crazy megas like Mawile and Medicham existing and the fact that z moves straight up kill you but by in large, I really cannot find anything that is too much

 

[shadowpea]

USUM OU is my first metagame on PS and Smogon (but I joined in the SS era...) and even though I've mostly moved on from it, I still play it quite a bit. I've been returning to it during the last few weeks and I still like it as much as ever. I don't see myself stop playing it completely in the future at all (even though I expect hiatuses) and it will always have a special place in my heart.

Anyway I'm stuck with an hour-long history video so I'll just answer some of these questions

What are your personal favorite Pokemon to use in the metagame, and why?

This should be no surprise to those who know me (aka no one) but I love Volca. It's why I decided to start out in USUM in the first place despite SS being the current generation (I didn't know Natdex existed back then). Anyway, Volcarona always have been known to be the "matchup moth" that hopes to win on team preview as opposed to in the game, but I think that it has a lot more than that back in SM. Volca can pick its counters - yes, every last one - by choosing which moves it runs. Problem is, you still can't cover everything at once - for example, if you run Buginium Z, then Toxapex beats you, but if you run Psychium Z, then Tyranitar beats you. Despite that, Volcarona is still one of my favorite Pokemon use in USUM OU, if only because I'm personally super biased towards it. Quiver Dance is an amazing move and everyone knows it, and Bug/Fire is honestly amazing both conceptually and competatively. Besides, you still have 5 other Pokemon to take care of anything Volcarona can't kill.


When I was starting out Bulu was my least favorite of the Tapus. Grass type was the least appealing to me, its the slowest of the four, and it hates a whole bunch of Pokemon that I likes back then (like Skarmory and Volcarona). And then I used it. MAN does this thing hits like a monster truck. Banded Bulu is nearly impossible to switch into if it packs the right moves (though I run into Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur a lot more often than I'd like to), SD Bulu just kills stuff after a boost, and Kartana is even more scary under Grassy Terrain. You think Lele's Specs Psychic is powerful? Try switching a 2x resist into a Banded Wood Hammer. I remember this time when Tornadus-T thought that it can come in for a free defog then got promptly OHKOed after rocks. Banded Bulu is my favorite Bulu by far, and it is a bit prediction reliant, but nailing that smug Ferrothorn with a Superpower is totally worth it when I get it right. Currently I'm polishing a Grass spam team featuring Bulu and Kartana, and I gotta say, if you get your predictions right you can kill basically anything with these two.

because it fuels my sadistic desires of watching pokemon lose their hp just by switching in

When I saw this thing and its incredible mixed offenses, I asked myself, "how is this thing legal?". Then I saw its crazy base 132 speed tier and STAB Hydro Pump, and I asked myself again, "why is this thing not banned to hell already?". This opinion eventually changed, but Choice Specs Ashgren is undeniably one of the strongest wallbreakers and sweepers in the meta by far. And nuking stuff with Specs Hydropump is always fun. But what I like the most about this is the amount of roles that it compresses offensively, allowing me to use more specialized offensive Pokemon or Pokemon that would otherwise be hard to fit into some teams. Once transformed, this thing can wallbreak, clean, set hazards (or pivot if you choose to run U-turn), revenge kill, etc etc etc. It's basically your perfect offensive Pokemon. Now, Greninja often cannot break through certain defensive Pokemon even after transformation, but it has something to more than make up for it: Spikes. So as you force out things like Heatran you can lay down Spikes instead of futilely throwing out a Hydropump against Toxapex. And this is only compounded by the fact that none of its common answers, barring Tapu Fini (which is relatively easy to wear down), can remove hazards. Not to mention that it can run stuff like Gunk Shot or Ice Beam to beat down its common answers. Another thing is that, even untransformed, Greninja is stronger than it looks, 2HKOing or 3HKOing Pokemon like Rotom-W and non-AV Magearna. And Greninja does a good job of taking advantage of its own Spikes as well, for example 2HKOing Toxapex after 3 Spikes or 1 Spike + SR. The only thing I don't like about it is that Hydro Pump somehow hits less often than Lovely Kiss from my Flame Orb Gengar in BH.


No surprise here. Kartana hits hard and has always been one of the best Pokemon in the USUM metagame. SD Normalium Z sets are effective on low-mid ladder mostly because people don't expect their Zapdos or something getting OHKOed by Kartana, opening their team up for a clean sweep. Scarf sets hits hard and fast and gets stronger after taking a kill, often leaving them with a lose-lose situation - once their walls are weakened and revenge killers are gone, you can't stop this thing from starting up and you can't stop this thing after it gets started (AKA why Naganadel is awesome in USUM Ubers, fight me if you want). And Banded sets are probably what you would expect from something with base 181 Atk, though its low-ish BP moves are a bit disappointing. As I said, I've been working on a Grass Spam team with Scarftana and Banded Bulu, and this thing just cleans house after its counters are gone. Even the madlad Timid Nagatana can be put in some work, because who doesn't like to cheat and beat all of its revenge killers?


Absolutely incredible power with the ability to break through most of its counters - what's not to love? Specs Lele is a nuclear bomb that powers up other nuclear bombs like Mega Medicham and Hoopa-U, and CM Z Lele can run like 10 different Z crystals, from Ghostium Shadow Ball to Electrium Thunder. Honestly though, my favorite Lele is probably Scarf Lele, which surprises and KOs tons of mons like MLop. It effortlessly revenge kills most offensive Pokemon because its powerful even without Specs. Scarf Lele also cleans relatively easily on a chipped team, providing that Psychic resists are gone of course.


Probably the only stupid fat mon on my list, Celesteela is practically allergic to dying even without reliable recovery. Leech Seed + Protect + Lefties just make people tear their hair out, and Heavy Slam hits for 120 BP 999.9% of the time (thanks to the fact that it weighs 999.9 kg). Automotize Celesteela is honestly mad underrated and can clean some teams, though Heavy Slam only hits for 120 BP 499.95% of the time (you will prolly run Flash Cannon tho so whatever). If they make a Steel-type move called "Repair" or something I will literally ragequit and move to hellland aka SS Ubers, only to jump off a cliff because it turns out ZamaC got both this and Body Press.


Saving the best for last (ok 2nd best, no one is topping Volca), Gliscor is the all-around defensive utility belt that I can always rely on. It gets pretty much everything that you could possibly want to have. Basically there are two variants of Gliscor. The first is bulky defensive Gliscor, running EQ, Roost, and then two of SR/Defog/U-turn/Taunt/Toxic/Knock/Protect/Ice Fang (yea this thing's movepool is pretty beastly). Then there is starkiller stallkiller Gliscor, with Swords Dance (yes it gets that too), Facade, EQ, and Taunt/Roost, complete with PHeal to make stall roll over in their grave. And then there are weird, less common sets like Fling Acrobatics, Sub SD, SubToxic, etc etc etc. Poison Heal is downright amazing for Gliscor and is the big reason why I love to use it so much (and why its used over Lando a lot). Gliscor when played right is a huge pain in the ass to KO, and it can do practically any utility that your team wants.

Honorable Mentions:


()

What current cores do you find to be strong or fun to use?

+ Standard Grass Spam
+ Standard Psyspam
+
+
+
+ Nuke stuff with +3 Hydro Vortex and watch them cry as you rest to full then wake up with Hydration.
+
+

Man I just noticed I use a lot of Kartana lol.

Do you like the current metagame, or find it to be well balanced? Why or why not?

The current metagame is awesome lol and pretty well balanced, I can build without always keeping an eye on that one threat, nothing is way too dominant in this metagame. As Red Raven said the offensive threats are really crazy in USUM between Megas and Z-Moves but we have enough defensive resources to keep them in check. He basically said what I want to say but said it better than I ever could. Fitting an Ashgren/Lele answer can be sometimes painful though, and you get surprised and lose to niche sets like madlad Timid Nagatana quite a bit.

EDIT: Went to calc for Ashgren damage outputs and then a small part of my brain told me to click the "Rain" button. Lord Jesus Christ this thing is literally unwallable under rain. And considering that practically all rain teams run both SR and Spikes... well, just look:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 289-342 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 128-151 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini in Rain: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 150-177 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Rain: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu in Rain: 169-200 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery

Mind you, these are literally the hardest checks/counters to Ashgren in the entire tier, minus water immunities and weird AV mons. And considering that rain teams almost always pack Ferrothorn to set hazards, as well as the fact that Greninja itself often runs spikes, these situations are a lot more likely that you'd think.

Off to building a rain team now. Cya!

 

[Tidal]

Now that the subforums been picking up some steam, i want to share my thoughts on the metagame as a whole and even stir up some discussion!

Specs Tapu Lele and the importance of Steels

In a metagame riddled with powerful wallbreakers, Tapu Lele sets itself apart with its absurd levels of power coupled with its unique ability: Psychic Surge. Psychic Terrain gives Tapu Lele essentially a free Choice Specs boost for Psychic-type moves, and when paired with a Choice Specs of its own, its power reaches absolutely heights. Tapu Lele is by far on of the hardest hitting Pokemon in the entire metagame, to the point where even defensive walls that would take a neutral hit don't want to switch in. On top of this, the terrain also blocks priority moves which can put a stop to Ash-Greninja, Mega Mawile and Mega Scizor. With all of these assets, as well as premier offensive typing and solid stats, it can be quite a difficult Pokemon to handle in the metagame! However, some particular types of Pokemon offer some counterplay to it: Bulky Steels and Revenge Killers. Obviously, revenge killing is something that every offensive Pokemon must take into account, but the Steel-types are something rather unique to Tapu Lele. They resist both of its STABs, and the coverage attacks it usually runs to address them as well as other checks and counters tend to be too weak or shaky to use consistently without fair prediction or prior damage. Tapu Lele is a major threat, but lets focus a little bit more on the Steel-types now because I like talking about them more

The Steel's in USUM can be seen as crucial Pokemon in the metagame, with plenty of handy resists up their sleeves and solid utility. These factors are further heightened with their additional typings, allowing them to check even more in the metagame. In fact, Steel types are so noteworthy in the meta two of them - Heatran and Magearna - sit in S ranks. Every good team needs a good Steel, so without further ado, let's take a look at them!

​

AV Magearna is probably my favourite Steel to use currently, being a fantastic glue on many Bulky Offense teams. With the Assault Vest set, Magearna can defensively check Greninja, Tapu Koko, Shift Gear Magearna and Tapu Lele. Magearna is also very good at keeping momentum in its team's favour thanks to its access to Volt Switch and its ability to deter most Ground-types from switching in. You're able to easily 2HKO Lele with Iron Head or Flash Cannon, meaning it doesn't have to go out of its way to handle it. With it's own Fairy-typing, it resists the more common Focus Blast meaning it can only be hit super effectively with Hidden Power Fire, though it's 3HKO'd by Psyshock. Though the lack of recovery can be a little bit tough, Magearna is an excellent way of handling Tapu Lele.

Arguably the best form of handling Tapu Lele, Celesteela's fantastic typing, great overall stats and major bulk makes it an extremely solid defensive Pokemon in the tier with the ability to check a wide range of Pokemon. While it's Leech Seed tactics may be predictable and therefore exploitable, the recovery it gets can be a massive boon and is a big reason as to why its so great at handling Lele. Though it isn't the easiest fit onto teams due to it being outclassed by other Steels like Magearna, Heatran and Ferrothorn, its certainly one that shouldn't be overlooked.
​

Most people should be familiar with Ferrothorn - a premier hazard setter in the tier with an excellent defensive typing. It's ability to force switches with Spikes, Leech Seed and Knock Off as well as Iron Barbs being a great ability, punishing most physical attackers, is what makes it such an amazing Pokemon - checking Greninja, Tapu Koko, Mega Swampert and of course, Tapu Lele. It is at maximum 4HKO'd with Leech Seed-ing it and is able to knock it out easily with Gyro Ball, making it a great switch in. However, it must be wary of HP Fire, which is able to secure the KO with minimal chip.

​

I'm grouping these two together since they are both dependent on whichever coverage move Lele decides to run, and both are good switch-ins for it. Heatran's ability to absorb HP Fire makes it super solid, but it gets blown back a Focus Blast if it lands. With amazing utility with status moves such as Taunt and Toxic, allowing it to defeat would-be checks such as Chansey and Latios. It can even trap and defeat Toxapex with Magma Storm, Earth Power, and Taunt. Scizor, on the other hand, is an excellent Mega choice that can check Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, and even Tapu Lele as long as it isn't running HP Fire, as well as the ability to keep up momentum with U-turn. Scizor does struggle a bit with actually being able to KO Tapu Lele due to Psychic Terrain blocking Bullet Punch, making it much harder. Of course, these Pokemon are much better at checking other metagame threats like Tapu Koko and Kartana respectively, but they're able to scout Lele's move somewhat safely.
​

While admittedly rather niche, Jirachi's defensive typing and utility allows it to be a rather good Tapu Lele switch in, taking less than 25% from its STAB moves and really only fearing its exploitable coverage moves, which only 3HKO's the SpDef sets. Its access to Stealth Rock, U-turn, and Healing Wish gives it a lot of utility on offensive teams. Despite its lower usage, I've had a lot of fun with Jirachi previously and I feel like its earned the honour of being on the list.

I genuinely have no idea how to finish this off so i hope you all have a great morning/day/afternoon depending on your timezone and here's to some more discussion on the metagame!

No i will not say anything about how Magnezone pairs with Lele to trap and deal with some of the steels, shh
​

 

[Tidal]

With a lot of discussion about a particular Pokemon happening in the SM discord, I thought I'd make a post about said Pokemon and look at it's effect on the tier!

Manaphy is easily one of the strongest wallbreakers in the whole tier thanks to the combination of Tail Glow and Hydration, boosting its Special Attack by 3 stages and providing an immunity to status conditions under rain. These two assets make it an easy fit on Rain teams, acting as a countermeasure to both Stall and Fat. Access to other coverage like Ice Beam and Psychic, as well as the ability to fire off an extremely powerful Hydro Vortex under the rain at +3 help it not only function as an offensive powerhouse, but also an excellent teammate for other rain Pokemon like Mega Swampert, Ash Greninja and Kingdra by disposing of their common checks: Toxapex, Mega Latias, Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. It's not like its particularly hard to set up with either, with the combination of Rest, in conjunction with Hydration, allowing Manaphy to recover all of its HP without consequence while rain is active and it's great all-around bulk giving Manaphy plenty of opportunities to set up against the opposing team.


Manaphy does however have a couple of flaws. It's lack of immediate power and good speed tier is exploitable, as it actually needs to set up a Tail Glow to become a threat and therefore making it much more predictable than other wallbreakers. Most teams will also have a faster Water-resists as well, like Greninja, Serperior, and Kartana (it resists but please don't switch this thing in), so players will be able to switch these in as it sets up and immediately force it out. Its speed tier also makes it relatively easy to revenge kill, with Tapu Koko and the aforementioned Kartana being able to dispose of it. The key to beating Manaphy is simply not letting it set up or pressuring it so much so that it's forced to sit there helplessly.

Let's take a quick look at some of its common defensive checks and see how they fare against it, for science's sake of course
​

​

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Ground / Thunder
- Thunder Wave / Wish
- Roost

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Ice Beam

Two very fun sets that make for two solid Manaphy checks. You'd assume that with Mega Latias' absurd bulk you'd be able to be a pretty decent Manaphy check, right? You resist its STAB and Z-Move and if it happens to be Psychic you wall it completely, with access to reliable recovery you can sit in front of it pretty easily and either set up or Thunder it. Manaphy, however, does not care. At +3 you can absolutely destroy it with Ice Beam and 2HKO it with Surf while Thunder rarely 2HKO's it back. Even if you Calm Mind as it sets up, you still fall victim to it.

+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Rain: 199-234 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 238-280 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Toxapex, one of the premier defensive walls in the tier that also provides a resistance to both Water- and Ice-type moves...is still blown back by Psychic and Hydro Vortex. Toxapex can Haze away its boosts if it attempts to set up in front of it but if Manaphy has already gotten a Tail Glow up you can't do anything about it.

+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 271-320 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO​

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 68 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fire
- Synthesis

You already know what's going to happen to this pour soul, it drops to Psychic but hey! It can at least chew up an Ice Beam!

+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 358-422 (98.3 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 390-459 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO



​

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave / Knock Off
- Power Whip / Protect / Knock Off

Ferrothorn..actually does alright against it! It's comfortably able to eat 2 of any of its moves and either Power Whip it so you force it to Rest, or Leech Seed it to annoy it or force it out. Ferrothorn in general does solidly against Rain as long as you land your Power Whips. It does, unfortunately, drop to a Hydro Vortex a little less than half the time so you do have to be wary of that.

+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 319-376 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 165-194 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 147-173 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



After taking a look at all of this data, it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that really only Chansey can switch into it (which still has a chance to drop to +3 Hydro Vortex or gets 2HKO'd by +6 Surf). Now that we've covered all of that, let's taking a closer look at some of it's offensive checks!​

Probably another Pokemon that is deserves to be looked at because of its sheer power, Kartana is another terrifying wallbreaker that does a great job of revenge killing Manaphy. Any set will do for Kartana as you're able to OHKO Manaphy almost always and get your free Beast Boost off of it, though the Ferrothorn switching into your Leaf Blade makes you take more damage than you do to it and the Kingdra/Greninja-Ash in the back is also to dispose of it need be. A good offensive check, yet dealt with by its teammates.

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice

Tapu Koko is a very interesting case, as it needs Choice Specs - or Life Orb which isn't common - to actually be able to kill Manaphy thanks to its investment in bulk. This makes it much more exploitable, either giving Swampert a free switch in or Ferrothorn an oppurtunity to Spike up. Still a Manaphy check, but much shakier.

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy in Electric Terrain: 308-366 (76.4 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

Another example of falling just short of the OHKO, Serperior needs to be at +2 to beat Manaphy otherwise it loses due to Ice Beam knocking it out cold. It should be noted, however, that Serperior is actually a pretty good check to Rain teams bar Ferrothorn with Choice Scarf sets easily outspeeding Mega Swampert under the rain. Sub Leech Seed sets also do quite well, being able to beat Ferrothorn but losing out on the additional speed boost.​

Kyurem-B's outstanding bulk and power lets it do an alright do at checking Manaphy, but once again it just falls short of the KO due to its investment in bulk. It's able to check it well if Manaphy isn't given an oppurtunity to set up, like all of the other Pokemon above, but if it does then you only just avoid the OHKO and are able to take a massive chunk of health out of it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I feel like this illustrates just how powerful Manaphy actually is, despite its looks. There seems to be a recurring theme between all of these Pokemon: You just barely miss out on the KO, and even if you do have it secured Manaphy's popular teammates easily handle any moves you throw out. While of course denying Manaphy set up is the best way to deal with it, that can be an extremely hard objective and it'll be able to put a massive hole in your team at least once - leaving it's teammates like Mega Swampert and Ash Greninja to clean up. I'm pretty happy that Manaphy is being looked into and i'd personally be in favour of a suspect test for it if that's something that can happen in oldgens, I can't remember. Excited to see how the rest of us look at Manaphy, or another Pokemon that may be worth a ban in your eyes!! Have a good rest of your day everyone! o/

​

 

[sunbhie]

With a lot of discussion about a particular Pokemon happening in the SM discord, I thought I'd make a post about said Pokemon and look at it's effect on the tier!



​

Great post! Do you mind sharing the discord link:? I would love to join.

I personally don't think manaphy is suspectworthy. It's true it has a good amount of bulk, but is easily revenge killed by so much in the game. Kartana and Koko don't even need to be scarfed, I feel like it's handleable with and offensive playstyle. There is also unaware clef that can beat it as long as it scouts the z move or gets a calm mind up.

 

[ausma]

Great post! Do you mind sharing the discord link:? I would love to join.

I personally don't think manaphy is suspectworthy. It's true it has a good amount of bulk, but is easily revenge killed by so much in the game. Kartana and Koko don't even need to be scarfed, I feel like it's handleable with and offensive playstyle. There is also unaware clef that can beat it as long as it scouts the z move or gets a calm mind up.

you can find it here
expect a longer more thorough post from me soon! good posts magnum

 

[PumpedAaron]

I started playing SM OU a few days ago, and have already put quite some wins thanks to the sample teams! So thanks in advance, sample team builders WOO! I've noticed compared to previous generations, stacking hazards can be a little challenging. There's lots of offensive mons to exploit the turns where you set up hazards, and even after setting up, Defog and Rapid Spin can just remove it all. I often find myself playing offense and knocking out 3 Pokemon before I reliably set up my first hazard. What are your thoughts on this? How do you go about setting hazards and keeping them?

 

[Tidal]

Been a while, huh? (Happy 400th post to me)

Why Greninja is really cool and I like it a lot




Greninja is, thanks to its extremely large movepool, excellent offensive stats and two amazing abilities in Battle Bond and Protean, one of OU's premier offensive threats, as its more than equipped to dismantle both bulky and offensive teams. Its colourful movepool lets it bypass some of its would-be checks and counters, make it not only a powerful threat, but a versatile on too. Likewise, Ash-Greninja is a top Pokemon because its excellent offensive typing combines with its monstrous Special Attack and Speed stats when changed formes, turns it into an even more dangerous attacker that is capable of shredding offensive teams. This is further enhanced by its access to Water Shuriken, which is one of the most powerful priority moves in the game if Battle Bond has activated.

One of the biggest draws for Greninja is its access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Spikes is an absolutely incredible tool for Greninja, as it basically ensures that it is going to make progress against a team. A large amount of Greninja's natural checks, like Magearna, Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, and Tangrowth, strongly dislike being chipped down by hazards as it makes them far less reliable checks to it. U-turn is another acceptable option, making it that instead of getting hazards up against a check you're able to straight up leave the scene in the place of a teammate able to directly threaten them.

In this post I wanted to discuss what exactly it is that makes Greninja so cool, what it pairs excellently with and some example team structures it can fit on and what it does for them.

Now I don't know about you guys but when I see a Pokemon with such an expansive movepool as Greninja's combined with its stellar Speed tier, solid mixed offensive stats and essentially a STAB boost for all of its moves, I get very excited. Greninja's ability to not only switch up what moves it runs, but also change up what defensive side it hits is absolutely key to why its so great. Lets take a look at both the Physically-based and Specially-based sets really quick.




Greninja @ Groundium Z
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dig
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Spikes / U-turn

Combined with Groundium Z, Dig grants Greninja access to Tectonic Rage, allowing it to take care of Pokemon like Toxapex, Magearna, and Heatran. As we can see here, Greninja actually doesn't use any of its natural STAB moves for its physical set and instead relies on its great movepool for damage. Even though this Greninja set uses its lower attacking stat, it's able to be more than effective on a team with its ability to lure in the aforementioned Pokemon and dispose of them for teammates. Other move options like Low Kick and Rock Slide can also be handy, being able to take out Mega Tyranitar and Tyranitar better, whereas Rock Slide helps Greninja deal with the likes of Volcarona and Zapdos. Speaking of teammates, Mega Scizor, Magearna and Landorus-T work excellently with Greninja in being able to provide pivoting support for it while appreciating the removal of their common checks. Landorus-T in particular is able to further enhance our hazard stacking with Stealth Rock, providing even more passive pressure.




Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Gunk Shot
- Hidden Power Fire
- Spikes

The specially based set also takes advantage of Greninja's expansive movepool, but for different reason. Hydro Pump and Hidden Power Fire and obvious must-haves: with Hydro Pump being its strongest STAB move and HP Fire being able to cover the likes of Ferrothorn and Kartana. Gunk Shot is an incredibly handy pick, even on the special set, as it allows it to bypass would be checks like Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth. Once again, Spikes are seen here to not only set up hazards, but also provide a semi-electric immunity in extreme circumstances. Dark Pulse and Extrasensory are also valid options, being able to muscle through Reuniclus and Toxapex respectively. Greninja's ability to force numerous switches thanks to its offensive profile makes a hazard-stacking core extremely beneficial, making Landorus-T, Clefable and Heatran solid partners. Of course, something that takes advantage of these hazards is also very much appreciated, so Mega Alakazam, Mega Lopunny and Mega Mawile also make for super solid teammates.

Other options like Scarf and Focus Sash are also solid options for Greninja, being able to revenge kill even the likes of Scarf Kartana or focus purely on setting up hazards. Of course, this is just base Greninja and its sets. We haven't looked at the creme of the crop yet: Ash Greninja



Greninja (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes / U-turn

Ash Greninja is one of the strongest offensive powerhouses we have in the tier. Battle Bond is what allows this set to really function, giving Greninja the ability to transform into Ash-Greninja upon securing a KO, which is much easier to do thanks to Choice Specs bolstering Greninja's firepower substantially without wearing it down over time, which is important for securing a safe transformation. Once transformed, its stats skyrockect to an absolutely absurd base 153 Special Attack and base 132 Speed, letting it outspeed even the likes of Tapu Koko and Weavile.

What makes Ash-Greninja really interesting, though, is how players need to play around and with its Battle Bond mechanics. Unless the situation forces you to do so, Users should not use Water Shuriken if Greninja has not transformed because it is extremely weak, inconsistent, and easy to punish. If Greninja happens to be Spikes, the optimal time to use it is when you expect a Pokemon such as Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Magearna and Tapu Fini to come in. This, once again, ensures that you’re making progress against the opposing team instead of doing 30% that can easily be recovered back. People should generally play with Greninja aggressively before transformation so that it’s able to remove weakened targets in order to reap the benefits that Battle Bond brings. However, the opponent has to be extremely careful in picking what to when it’s out on the field. Does Greninja click a powerful move or Spike up? Should I go into my defensive answer or my offensive answer? If you pick wrong, you either end up giving Greninja its transformation, or you’re pressured even more by hazards which make it even easier for Greninja to gain its Battle Bond boons. Greninja is also a massive reason as to why positioning is so important, as bringing Greninja in using a slow VoltTurn user or when a teammate faints can force players into incredibly awkward situations. That’s what I believe makes Greninja such an awesome Pokémon: it fires higher order thinking and game planning, which isn’t a common enough thing in competitive Pokémon

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Alright it’s 10:35, I have project votings to do and I need some sleep, so have a good day/afternoon/night to all of you!


expect something else in the few coming days hehe​

 

[Glurakaiser]

Can we talk about how z-belly drum works? If the pokemon used normal belly drum first, the hp is cut in half. Then if z-belly drum is used, it restores the hp and then fails, because the pokemon is already at +4, but as it fails, the hp is not cut in half again. Is it supposed to work like this?
The battle:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-1498350927-3iu5vt6i8a9kq71o92xsggxrnk5g01xpw

 

[Clem]

Can we talk about how z-belly drum works? If the pokemon used normal belly drum first, the hp is cut in half. Then if z-belly drum is used, it restores the hp and then fails, because the pokemon is already at +4, but as it fails, the hp is not cut in half again. Is it supposed to work like this?
The battle:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-1498350927-3iu5vt6i8a9kq71o92xsggxrnk5g01xpw

It is supposed to work like this, the Z-effect of Belly Drum is that it restores the user's HP to full. Like all non-offensive Z-Moves, the effect is applied before the move is used, then the move is used "normally", meaning Z-Belly Drum will restore the HP, then use Belly Drum. If the user is already at +6 Attack, the move will fail, but the Z-Effect is already applied.

 

[Oya/Semort]

What are your personal favorite Pokemon to use in the metagame, and why?

Let's start with my favorite mon, I was so happy it was this strong when I started playing. It's sword dance set wich put an incredible amount of pressure on your opponent if you use sucker punch correctly, it's AoA set wich can destroy common answers like tran. It' also a good mon against stall, pretty usefull when you're beginning and don't know how to deal with this archetypes. This pokemon is the absolute definition of brute force.

I think we can resume Bisharp by two things, sucker punch and defiant, the fact of threatening your opponent to death if they dare click defog is just to satisfying, the moment when you and your opponent are trying to outplay each other during sucker punch duels. This pokemon made me addict to 50/50s with sucker punch, even if I didn't played it a lot, it's definitely one of my favorite mons.

A pretty underrated pokemon in my opinion, it's capacity to switch into threats like ash gren, lele or no z lando with it's specially defensive set or to break teams like nothing with it's choice band. This thing litteraly saved me in a lot of games, grassy surge is really usefull giving grass moves a decent boost and heal to bulu and grounded mons of your team.

One of the best pivot in the game, u-turn associated with regenerator, it's good speed tier, bulk and movepool make it easy to fit in a lot of teams depending on your needs, it can be played bulky with the rocky helmet, offensive with flynium z, fightium or even more uncommon things like icium or others. In my opinion, tornadus-t is almost always a good choice in teams.

At first, I thought that Reuniclus was a weird mon, a slow and bulky pure psychic type, it appeared quite useless to me. Until the day when I needed a medicham-mega switch in, I feel like Reuniclus can just win games for free if there isn't a dark type in the opposing team, unfortunately, it does not learn stored power in gen7 so if we want to play the iron def calm mind set, wich is fun to use, we have to use psyshock. Besides that, it's a good in to fighting threats like mega lopu or mega medi, magic guard is also really usefull to not get cheaped by hazards, status etc....

I always liked this clown, from it's typing to it's stats, it was really looking cool and fun to play. The problem was that I didn't know what to do with it. Then I discovered the sub ghostium z set, it's not as good as some mons named before, but it absolutely wrecks fat teams ( as long as there's no ttar in it), it's so much fun to use along with calm mind and hp invests.

One of the mons i spammed the most, that shit is just stupid, even counterplays like tran and teela aren't safe against sets like specs or z moves, the scarf is just a superb revenge killer. By itself, this mon makes psychic spam not only viable but really strong. A bit sad to see that the only existence of this monster doomed gardevoir in the meta.

I'm always surprised by how people aren't prepared to rotom wash, half of my matches while playing it are "haha wow go brrr". It's typing grants a decent matchup against rain and it's movepool is the guarantee of a constant utility. Rotom wash can also be played with z moves to provides a usefull offensive presence to the mon. Having it in a team free my teams from a lot of pressure due to it's capacity to switch in, defog and pivot.

When I started playing this thing, I was like "okay so it's a fighting that hits hard and is slow, don't care", I can't believe how wrong I was! Heracross Mega is a freaking joke, it's extreme atk stat of 185 paired with skill link wich provides it 125 bp moves wich ignores the like of focus sash. It's set up possibility with sword dance, it's wallbreak capacity with an AoA set or with substitute. There's no mon to come on it being totally safe.

252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 168-198 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (can set up on the switch in)

Okay so Beedrill is, with no contest, my second favorite mon to play, I love u-turn spam, In my opinion is maybe the best designed mega evolution with a clear role and no wasted stats, it is not the most viable mon due to lando, ferro, zapdos or priority and scarf users in the meta but it's incredible speed and it's really good atk paired with adaptability makes it, in my opinion, worth to play. Just to spam power boosted U-turn like an idiot and pivot forever. Also, beware of the rocks.

A mon that have been quite a good surprise for me when I tested out Trick room, this pokemon hits like a truck, and even with the minus def repart it can take a lot of physical moves (it tanks eq from zard X). Thanks to it's incredibly low speed, Gyro ball will do heavy damages most of the time with a bp of 150, the z rock can erase some things that might come to tank gyro like scizor or slow mons in general.

What current cores do you find to be strong or fun to use?

+ Maybe the core that made me like Heracross mega, bullet seed boosted just anihilates the few mons that can switch in like full def unaware clef or toxa wich is just ohko after a sword dance. Bulu can also protect hera from things like ash gren's hpump.

+ A pretty common core but always usefull and solid, both mons cover pretty well each others weaknesses and gives tran a better recovery, wich is pretty cool to compensate it's lack of heal.

+ A core that I wasn't even aware I was playing. The duo of scarf lando and tornadus is incredible to use as a pivot core, it's pretty good at taking the tempo with fast u-turns. You can add things like av mag or rotom wash to give this core an ice resist and even more flexibility.

+ A core that hypes me for no real reason tbh, I feel like av magearna checks a lot of medicham's threats (torna for example) while medi threats mons that can destroy mag (heatran for exemple).


Do you like the current metagame, or find it to be well balanced? Why or why not?

Since smou is by far my favorite tier I think it's no surprise that I like the current metagame. Overall i find it pretty balanced even if there's some pretty dumb mons like ash gren or Volcarona (even if I love to play them). The meta is quite fast, pivots are incredible and there's a lot of viable mons, it's always fun to test new things.

 

[Cdijk16]

What are your thoughts on Mega Sceptile in the current meta? It's the only offensive Ground immunity that doesn't fear Hydro Pump or Will-O-Wisp from from WashTom. It can reliably block Volt Switch and stop it from gaining momentum. It also has a really good speed tier of 145, which outspeeds the entire unboosted meta besides Mega Alakazam and niche Mega Aerodactyl. It can also 0hko a lot offensive pokemon like Koko with STAB Leaf Storm. It does get totally blanked by Celesteela and Pex though. What are your thoughts? I think it's worth looking into.

 

[Maktyum]

What are your thoughts on Mega Sceptile in the current meta? It's the only offensive Ground immunity that doesn't fear Hydro Pump or Will-O-Wisp from from WashTom. It can reliably block Volt Switch and stop it from gaining momentum. It also has a really good speed tier of 145, which outspeeds the entire unboosted meta besides Mega Alakazam and niche Mega Aerodactyl. It can also 0hko a lot offensive pokemon like Koko with STAB Leaf Storm. It does get totally blanked by Celesteela and Pex though. What are your thoughts? I think it's worth looking into.

Hi!
Mega Sceptile is an interesting choice in SMOU. Its speed and good special attack are excellent with its access to powerful moves like leaf storm and its design. However, Mega Sceptile has many downsides.

First grass/dragon is not an excellent typing:
strongly resists electric, grass and water attacks, and has a simple resistance to ground (not immunity)
many weaknesses: bug, poison, fairy, dragon, ice, flying. Here is the problem: fairy types are mighty in OU and many Pokemon have an ice move as coverage, therefore making M-Sceptile hard to use in OU.

Ability:
Lightning rod is underwhelming given the already x4 resistance to electric attacks but can be useful in some situations

Its movepool:
Mega Sceptile has access to many moves and "good" coverage: leaf storm, energy ball, focus blast, dragon pulse, earthquake, nature power (with terrain)
All these moves have drawbacks: leaf storm drops special attack by 2 stages, focus blast has terrible accuracy, dragon pulse is weak, and 110 attack earthquake is meh.

Mega-Sceptile has many checks and counters:
celesteela, toxapex, magearna [0- Atk Sceptile-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 124-148 (34.1 - 40.7%)] , heatran (if no eq), chansey, Mega-Latias (sceptile doesn't even 2HKO latias at +1 in spedef with dragon pulse), ferrothorn [252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-222 (53.4 - 63%)/ 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%)/ 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 195-229 (69.3 - 81.4%)]. You will probably run into 1/2 checks in your games.

Competition against many other Pokemon as an offensive grass type:
Serperior: When we talk about leaf storm here is the best user with its ability contrary, greater bulk, access to an item, glare <3, and good speed tier as well.
Kartana: A fast physical grass breaker, access to an item, a lot of viable sets.
Tapu-Bulu: powerful, sets grassy terrain, access to an item, greater bulk, and typing but really slow.
Latios-mega: as a mixed dragon type Latios is just better, same access to eq but stronger, levitate is really good, and greater typing.

How I personally would use it:
Sceptile with Tapu-bulu can serve as a potent grass spam core (don't use earthquake on it because of grassy terrain)
My favourite set is nature power with Tapu Koko or Tapu-Lele
In electric terrain, nature power becomes thunderbolt allowing you to break through celesteela or any flying type for example.
In psychic terrain it becomes psychic, which is a great way to get rid of toxapex (2HKO)

+/
Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast/Hidden Power Fire
- Nature Power​

Mega-Sceptile is definitely a playable Pokemon with its speed tier and special attack. It is more like a fun and gimmick mon than anything for me so don't expect it to be god-like versus other top-tier threats. It stays a cool mon to try I guess. Hope you will have fun with it.

 

[Cdijk16]

Hi!
Mega Sceptile is an interesting choice in SMOU. Its speed and good special attack are excellent with its access to powerful moves like leaf storm and its design. However, Mega Sceptile has many downsides.

First grass/dragon is not an excellent typing:
strongly resists electric, grass and water attacks, and has a simple resistance to ground (not immunity)
many weaknesses: bug, poison, fairy, dragon, ice, flying. Here is the problem: fairy types are mighty in OU and many Pokemon have an ice move as coverage, therefore making M-Sceptile hard to use in OU.

Ability:
Lightning rod is underwhelming given the already x4 resistance to electric attacks but can be useful in some situations

Its movepool:
Mega Sceptile has access to many moves and "good" coverage: leaf storm, energy ball, focus blast, dragon pulse, earthquake, nature power (with terrain)
All these moves have drawbacks: leaf storm drops special attack by 2 stages, focus blast has terrible accuracy, dragon pulse is weak, and 110 attack earthquake is meh.

Mega-Sceptile has many checks and counters:
celesteela, toxapex, magearna [0- Atk Sceptile-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 124-148 (34.1 - 40.7%)] , heatran (if no eq), chansey, Mega-Latias (sceptile doesn't even 2HKO latias at +1 in spedef with dragon pulse), ferrothorn [252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-222 (53.4 - 63%)/ 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%)/ 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 195-229 (69.3 - 81.4%)]. You will probably run into 1/2 checks in your games.

Competition against many other Pokemon as an offensive grass type:
Serperior: When we talk about leaf storm here is the best user with its ability contrary, greater bulk, access to an item, glare <3, and good speed tier as well.
Kartana: A fast physical grass breaker, access to an item, a lot of viable sets.
Tapu-Bulu: powerful, sets grassy terrain, access to an item, greater bulk, and typing but really slow.
Latios-mega: as a mixed dragon type Latios is just better, same access to eq but stronger, levitate is really good, and greater typing.

How I personally would use it:
Sceptile with Tapu-bulu can serve as a potent grass spam core (don't use earthquake on it because of grassy terrain)
My favourite set is nature power with Tapu Koko or Tapu-Lele
In electric terrain, nature power becomes thunderbolt allowing you to break through celesteela or any flying type for example.
In psychic terrain it becomes psychic, which is a great way to get rid of toxapex (2HKO)

+/
Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast/Hidden Power Fire
- Nature Power​

Mega-Sceptile is definitely a playable Pokemon with its speed tier and special attack. It is more like a fun and gimmick mon than anything for me so don't expect it to be god-like versus other top-tier threats. It stays a cool mon to try I guess. Hope you will have fun with it.

Thanks for the advice. I made a team with Sceptile and CB Victini. After using, I get the impression it's a fun gimmick, but not worth bringing to a serious game.

 

[Soiramio3000]

I have got a question for the counsil:
are the z-moves subject to ban?
(I am asking because they are similar with the gems in BW which got banned).

 

[DIYUSI]

I have got a question for the counsil:
are the z-moves subject to ban?
(I am asking because they are similar with the gems in BW which got banned).

I think I should give a proper answer for once on that subject: Z-moves are not Gems.
You can holds mutiple Z-moves, but you can only activate one during a game (so, running several Z-moves will be, in general, less valuable than running several gems). Unlikes z-move, gems can't be wasted on Protect (proof on this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ru-1631537772) and Z-moves only increase the BP of a move while Gems is a flat increase of 50%, which can be better or worse depending on the context. For example, with bug bite on Scizor, Gems are better than Z-moves:

-BW: 0 Atk Bug Gem Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 462-546 (143.9 - 170%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-SM: 0 Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 410-486 (127.7 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, unlike SM, Gems in BW OU add a factor of ignorance that only aggravate the overall powercreep that plague the tier, where, in SM OU, most of Z-moves are kind of predictable (a lot of Z-moves tend to be on Stabs to have as much power as possible) and, even more, the Z-move user can be identified right at the teampreview (which, obviously, does not make the lure impossible with unexpected coverage or unexpected users, but it's cleary more niche than the standard).

To conclude, I don't think Z-moves are by anything an issue for the tier (and, moreover, I would add that they are a bliss for creative teambuilders). While we can argue the tier can be better with tiering actions, imo, banning Z-moves is clearly not one of them

 

[Soiramio3000]

Thanks for the answer,although a simple yes or no would work just as fine.

 

[Soiramio3000]

I think I should give a proper answer for once on that subject: Z-moves are not Gems.
You can holds mutiple Z-moves, but you can only activate one during a game (so, running several Z-moves will be, in general, less valuable than running several gems). Unlikes z-move, gems can't be wasted on Protect (proof on this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ru-1631537772) and Z-moves only increase the BP of a move while Gems is a flat increase of 50%, which can be better or worse depending on the context. For example, with bug bite on Scizor, Gems are better than Z-moves:

-BW: 0 Atk Bug Gem Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 462-546 (143.9 - 170%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-SM: 0 Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 410-486 (127.7 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, unlike SM, Gems in BW OU add a factor of ignorance that only aggravate the overall powercreep that plague the tier, where, in SM OU, most of Z-moves are kind of predictable (a lot of Z-moves tend to be on Stabs to have as much power as possible) and, even more, the Z-move user can be identified right at the teampreview (which, obviously, does not make the lure impossible with unexpected coverage or unexpected users, but it's cleary more niche than the standard).

To conclude, I don't think Z-moves are by anything an issue for the tier (and, moreover, I would add that they are a bliss for creative teambuilders). While we can argue the tier can be better with tiering actions, imo, banning Z-moves is clearly not one of them

Hi,some guy told me that my response "a simple yes or a no would work just as fine" was "snarky" and "not productive",I really don't understand what the later is and I don't see what's so snarky about it either.
I apologize for my unintended rudness.

Maybe I should have phrased my initial question better so you wouldn't have to write this much.

 

[DIYUSI]

No worry, I dont mind at all. Tbf, the answer that I written was more to have something easy to link whenever someone try to compare Z-moves and Gems. So I just used your question as an occasion for that.

 

[Oya/Semort]

What are your personal favorite Pokemon to use in the metagame, and why?

Let's start with my favorite mon, I was so happy it was this strong when I started playing. It's sword dance set wich put an incredible amount of pressure on your opponent if you use sucker punch correctly, it's AoA set wich can destroy common answers like tran. It' also a good mon against stall, pretty usefull when you're beginning and don't know how to deal with this archetypes. This pokemon is the absolute definition of brute force.

I think we can resume Bisharp by two things, sucker punch and defiant, the fact of threatening your opponent to death if they dare click defog is just to satisfying, the moment when you and your opponent are trying to outplay each other during sucker punch duels. This pokemon made me addict to 50/50s with sucker punch, even if I didn't played it a lot, it's definitely one of my favorite mons.

A pretty underrated pokemon in my opinion, it's capacity to switch into threats like ash gren, lele or no z lando with it's specially defensive set or to break teams like nothing with it's choice band. This thing litteraly saved me in a lot of games, grassy surge is really usefull giving grass moves a decent boost and heal to bulu and grounded mons of your team.

One of the best pivot in the game, u-turn associated with regenerator, it's good speed tier, bulk and movepool make it easy to fit in a lot of teams depending on your needs, it can be played bulky with the rocky helmet, offensive with flynium z, fightium or even more uncommon things like icium or others. In my opinion, tornadus-t is almost always a good choice in teams.

At first, I thought that Reuniclus was a weird mon, a slow and bulky pure psychic type, it appeared quite useless to me. Until the day when I needed a medicham-mega switch in, I feel like Reuniclus can just win games for free if there isn't a dark type in the opposing team, unfortunately, it does not learn stored power in gen7 so if we want to play the iron def calm mind set, wich is fun to use, we have to use psyshock. Besides that, it's a good in to fighting threats like mega lopu or mega medi, magic guard is also really usefull to not get cheaped by hazards, status etc....

I always liked this clown, from it's typing to it's stats, it was really looking cool and fun to play. The problem was that I didn't know what to do with it. Then I discovered the sub ghostium z set, it's not as good as some mons named before, but it absolutely wrecks fat teams ( as long as there's no ttar in it), it's so much fun to use along with calm mind and hp invests.

One of the mons i spammed the most, that shit is just stupid, even counterplays like tran and teela aren't safe against sets like specs or z moves, the scarf is just a superb revenge killer. By itself, this mon makes psychic spam not only viable but really strong. A bit sad to see that the only existence of this monster doomed gardevoir in the meta.

I'm always surprised by how people aren't prepared to rotom wash, half of my matches while playing it are "haha wow go brrr". It's typing grants a decent matchup against rain and it's movepool is the guarantee of a constant utility. Rotom wash can also be played with z moves to provides a usefull offensive presence to the mon. Having it in a team free my teams from a lot of pressure due to it's capacity to switch in, defog and pivot.

When I started playing this thing, I was like "okay so it's a fighting that hits hard and is slow, don't care", I can't believe how wrong I was! Heracross Mega is a freaking joke, it's extreme atk stat of 185 paired with skill link wich provides it 125 bp moves wich ignores the like of focus sash. It's set up possibility with sword dance, it's wallbreak capacity with an AoA set or with substitute. There's no mon to come on it being totally safe.

252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 168-198 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (can set up on the switch in)

Okay so Beedrill is, with no contest, my second favorite mon to play, I love u-turn spam, In my opinion is maybe the best designed mega evolution with a clear role and no wasted stats, it is not the most viable mon due to lando, ferro, zapdos or priority and scarf users in the meta but it's incredible speed and it's really good atk paired with adaptability makes it, in my opinion, worth to play. Just to spam power boosted U-turn like an idiot and pivot forever. Also, beware of the rocks.

A mon that have been quite a good surprise for me when I tested out Trick room, this pokemon hits like a truck, and even with the minus def repart it can take a lot of physical moves (it tanks eq from zard X). Thanks to it's incredibly low speed, Gyro ball will do heavy damages most of the time with a bp of 150, the z rock can erase some things that might come to tank gyro like scizor or slow mons in general.

What current cores do you find to be strong or fun to use?

+ Maybe the core that made me like Heracross mega, bullet seed boosted just anihilates the few mons that can switch in like full def unaware clef or toxa wich is just ohko after a sword dance. Bulu can also protect hera from things like ash gren's hpump.

+ A pretty common core but always usefull and solid, both mons cover pretty well each others weaknesses and gives tran a better recovery, wich is pretty cool to compensate it's lack of heal.

+ A core that I wasn't even aware I was playing. The duo of scarf lando and tornadus is incredible to use as a pivot core, it's pretty good at taking the tempo with fast u-turns. You can add things like av mag or rotom wash to give this core an ice resist and even more flexibility.

+ A core that hypes me for no real reason tbh, I feel like av magearna checks a lot of medicham's threats (torna for example) while medi threats mons that can destroy mag (heatran for exemple).


Do you like the current metagame, or find it to be well balanced? Why or why not?

Since smou is by far my favorite tier I think it's no surprise that I like the current metagame. Overall i find it pretty balanced even if there's some pretty dumb mons like ash gren or Volcarona (even if I love to play them). The meta is quite fast, pivots are incredible and there's a lot of viable mons, it's always fun to test new things.

Might upload this since I'm a bit bored and have tried some things in the tiers:

First I'm trying to play less and less bulu since it gave me some automatisms in my building process, wich is not really good to improve.

I tried more medi based teams and now I feel like I have missed a monster during all this time. It’s high jump kick simply is maybe the most spammable fightning move (when you don’t miss lol) in my opinion, really cool mon to play with.

I'm starting to think that bug fighting is one hell of a chad type. Buzzwole is one hell of a physical wall some really usefull resistances, really cool to use, isn't passive such as others and can snowball with beast boost during a game to snatch victory away from your opponent. (beware not to get flinched by swampert mega under rain tho)

Tested this only a few times but man charizard Y is dumb depending on the mu, either unstoppable, either useless, I liked playing it but not sure if it'll be one of my most used mons.

An other day, an other monster I don't notice, (Just noticed bu there is an awful lot of fighting type mons here lol) to make it simple, lopu's speed tier, stabs and ability make it extremely nice to use since you'll apply pressure easily with it, despite the fact that it hits less hard that medi or mawile (still hits reasonably tho).

 

[DIYUSI]

Hi everyone, it is KaiserKaiba. I'm just a casual SM enjoyer since a few years and, at the moment, this is the only tier I really spent time to keep following tournaments replays, try to build and expand more the possibilities of the tier.
Today, I do not want to speak about my recent takes on the tier (I will maybe write something again later in another appropriate thread), but I want to talk about the "problematic" pokemons of the tier according to me (and, just be to clear, I do not consider them as ban-worthy, I just want to share my thoughts on them and, why not, start discussions with other SM players).


(and Rain in general)

To anyone that ever play a bit on SM ladder, you know how much Rain is spammed. Even in a more serious setting (like in SPL), Rain will always randomly pop off and get wins. Therefore, it is a bit complicate to speak about rain as the playstyle is not something that we can consider as dominant (and more the kind of stuff you spam during ssnl or cup). But, as a player more focused on teambuild than in-game, Rain is always a pain to take into account. The first difficult part of Rain is the dual-core of Swampert-Mega and Greninja-Ash. While Greninja-Ash get several splash-able checks, those checks are not effective for Swampert-Mega, and, thus, you need to spent another slot for it (which is usually a bulky grass or physical bulky water such as Slowbro or Rotom-Wash). But, I consider this aspect not that bad as the slot you spent on Swampert-Mega will also covers other threats, so, overall, you do not feel too bad to prep for Greninja and Swampert.
The real shit is Manaphy in Rain. I will not explain again what can accomplish Manaphy in SM (Rae already explained it), but I want to properly indicate why the presence Manaphy makes everything painful.
Manaphy is just the best fat, semi-stall and stall destroyer of the tier (especially when Manaphy can easily abuse the most common special walls on these playstyle such as Chansey or Toxapex) and, therefore, you will see some techs such as Punishment on Weavile or random Thunder. The issue is that there's just not a way to find a single "true" defensive answer to Manaphy as this latter can slot many coverage such as Energy Ball for Gastrodon and Seismitoad, Psychic for Toxapex, Ice Beam for Latias-Mega or Shadow Ball for Shedinja (or even Toxic to cover both Calm Mind Latias-Mega and Shedinja). So, in the end, against Manaphy, you either pray that your dedicate answer will not face that one Manaphy or you put a revenge killer (like Kartana) to avoid the 6-0.
Moreover, even for more offensive playstyle (Bulky Offense and Offense), Manaphy is by no means useless as a single Z-Surf under rain (even at +0) on shaky water-resists such as Ferrothorn or Tapu Fini can be enough to open the path for Greninja.


(and the issue with steels in SM OU)

Recently, I change my opinion on Alakazam-Mega: there was a time I considered it as the best mega in SM OU, but, now, I believe I will give that title to Mawile-Mega instead. The reason is that I often find that Alakazam-Mega is not always that crazy offensive threat that will win by himself if you give it enough time (and, thus, Alakazam-Mega needs the support of either a powerful breaker on offensive playstyle or spikes on bulky playstyle).
However, I think Alakazam-Mega shows very well the main issue when building in SM: the bulky steels is always the most shaky part on any builds (and, therefore, the main reason of why Chansey is very popular as a "psy-resist"). Not only the relevant psychic threats can fit a fight coverage (or even Hidden Power Fire), the fact that the majority of steel dont have any real good way of recovery leads to a big structural issue where pressuring that one precise slot will be always a valid gameplan (Scizor-Mega is extremely shaky as a psy-resist and by no means splash-able, Skarmory dont have the stats to act as a special sponge, Wish pattern from Jirachi can be easily abused, Ferrothorn and Celesteela rely a lot on leftovers and leech seed and Magearna plain split is not always the most reliable).
What I want to point is that this fundamental aspect of the tier really shape the teambuilding and, therefore, leads to believe that, if you want a reliable way to check Alakazam-Mega, you can't trust at all any steel and, instead, pick other options such as Chansey or Gliscor Careful on fat squad or Speed Control on offensive builds (I dont consider Tyranitar as a valid option as the sole presence of it leads to other glaring weakness).



I really hate Gliscor and it is always on the top of my threat list when I build any team. However, the more I build in this tier, the more easy is it to understand how you just want to fit Gliscor everywhere. That bat just offers so much for one single slot. The combination of ground-immunity + electric-immunity, status-immunity (because Toxapex is the bane of my existence), crazy utility value (with support options such as U-turn, Taunt, Knock off, Defog or Stealth Rock), being one of the best wincondition with Swords Dance and can check countless threats with the appropriate spread (Alakazam-Mega and Diancie without Hidden Power Ice for careful variant, Heatran Modest for Jolly variant or Excadrill, Mawile-Mega and Charizard-Mega-X with impish variant) push Gliscor to the top of the tier.
If the utility that Gliscor provide is the reason of why this pokemon is not ban-worthy, I really can't stand Swords Dance set. Unlike the other slow set-up wincon with equal staying power such as Latias-Mega, Clefable or Reuniclus, Gliscor can't be scammed with paralysis and, overall, there is not a lot of answer that can sustain the staying power of Gliscor (Latias-Mega, Skarmory, Kyurem, Kyurem-Black, ...). Moreover, if Gliscor by himself is already hard to check, it is very simple to pair it with hazards support or even trapper such as Magnezone for Skarmory or Weavile/Tyranitar for Latias-Mega to catch the few things that prevent Gliscor from sweeping.



If I have the possibility to ban one pokemon in this tier, it would be Volcarona. That shit is broken and, while I do understand that there's lot of elements that heavily nerf Volcarona, I still think it is the most annoying pokemon to take into account during teambuild.
Volcarona has a set to beat all of its check. Offensive Quiver Dance + 3 attacks pick its check depending of the coverage chosen (Hidden Power Ground for Heatran, Z-Psychic for Toxapex, Kommo-o or Charizard-Mega-X and Y, Bug Buzz for Tyranitar/Latias-Mega/Garchomp and Giga Drain for Gastrodon) but, even if you decide to go for the most fattish answer in the form of Chansey for example, Substitute + Swarm variant can easily abuse those kind of special walls (without being cheesy at all as this set can also abuse Heatran or Toxapex). Moreover, it is important to add that Volcarona at +1 in speed is extremely hard to revenge kill and requires some specific speed control such as Greninja Choice Scarf with Rock Slide or weather abuser such as Excadrill or Swampert.
Finally, unlike something like Gliscor, I dont really care about the defensive value from its more bulky variant as, even if it is a decent check to threats such as Mawile-Mega, Kartana or Scizor-mega, I believe this aspect of Volcarona is way more niche and, most of the time, not even that fonctionnal as Stealth Rock is kinda enough to completly overload Volcarona and almost invalidate it on more fat/stall builds as a real defensive answer for any long-term gameplan.​

 

[Ezra Koenig Worshipper]

If I have the possibility to ban one pokemon in this tier, it would be Volcarona. That shit is broken and, while I do understand that there's lot of elements that heavily nerf Volcarona, I still think it is the most annoying pokemon to take into account during teambuild.
Volcarona has a set to beat all of its check. Offensive Quiver Dance + 3 attacks pick its check depending of the coverage chosen (Hidden Power Ground for Heatran, Z-Psychic for Toxapex, Kommo-o or Charizard-Mega-X and Y, Bug Buzz for Tyranitar/Latias-Mega/Garchomp and Giga Drain for Gastrodon) but, even if you decide to go for the most fattish answer in the form of Chansey for example, Substitute + Swarm variant can easily abuse those kind of special walls (without being cheesy at all as this set can also abuse Heatran or Toxapex). Moreover, it is important to add that Volcarona at +1 in speed is extremely hard to revenge kill and requires some specific speed control such as Greninja Choice Scarf with Rock Slide or weather abuser such as Excadrill or Swampert.
Finally, unlike something like Gliscor, I dont really care about the defensive value from its more bulky variant as, even if it is a decent check to threats such as Mawile-Mega, Kartana or Scizor-mega, I believe this aspect of Volcarona is way more niche and, most of the time, not even that fonctionnal as Stealth Rock is kinda enough to completly overload Volcarona and almost invalidate it on more fat/stall builds as a real defensive answer for any long-term gameplan.​

i mean it's called match up moth for a reason. it suffers quite a bit from 4mss as a lot of it's checks are incredibly common in the tier and it can only deal with a few of them depending on the set. it has a very easy time winning against teams that lack checks but again it's checks are very common so it's not a massive constraint on teambuilding at all. if you have a check, its very easy to deal with. if not, you kinda just lose lmao