Sleep Clause: Clarification, or exception.

[D3FAULT]

The Sleep Clause rule is described in the battle thread on this site as follows:

only one pokemon on your opponent's team at a time can be put to sleep by you.

This has always been straight forward to myself, until recently. Let me explain.

It is obvious that this clause means that if you have put your opponent's Pokemon to sleep using moves like Hypnosis or Spore, then until that Pokemon is killed or wakes up from sleep, you cannot use moves such as the ones listed above again, or risk automatically losing the match (in the case of wifi) or having the move "fail" in the case of shoddy. Like I said, this is straight forward.

However, I had always heard that the ability Effect Spore does not count as you putting a Pokemon to sleep. In other words, you are not disqualified if you use Spore w/ Breloom, the opponent switches hits you with a move, and is put to sleep by Effect Spore. Now, if I am wrong here, and I do not think that I am at all, then this thread is null and void, and should be closed right now. This part of the sleep clause rule also made sense to me since it's something you cannot technically stop; it's random chance.

In the case that I am correct in the above analysis of Effect Spore and its role in Sleep Clause, then I have another situation that I believe needs further explanation.

To explain it, here is a shoddy log. All you need to know, is that another Pokemon is asleep on the opponent's team.

Cresselia used Rest.
Cresselia fell asleep!
Cresselia restored 35% of its health.
Magnezone used Magnet Rise.
But it failed!
---
Cresselia is fast asleep!
Cresselia used Sleep Talk.
Cresselia used Psycho Shift.
Magnezone used Thunderbolt.
Cresselia lost 33% of its health.
Magnezone is no longer immune to ground attacks!

Notice that Psycho Shift had no effect what-so-ever. Now obviously this was because Sleep Clause was in effect. However, is a Sleeping Cresselia who is using Rest Talk, and has a chance to choose Psycho Shift and transfer sleep any different from a Breloom who also has a chance to cause sleep when it has the ability Effect Spore?

I believe that this should be discussed, at the very least.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

It says "by you". Effect Spore can only be activated when your opponent attacks your Breloom, so in effect THEY are activating the chance for sleep. Activating Effect Spore is something that your opponent controls, they can simply use a non-contact move. If you Psycho Shift while you are Sleep Talking, YOU are activating the chance to put your opponent to sleep, so it is different.

 

[Mountain Dewgong]

Fully evolved Pokemon with the ability Effect Spore: 2.
Fully evolved Pokemon with the ability Effect Spore AND a more beneficial ability: 2.

Unless a mistake is made, you would be mad to use effect spore on either Parasect or Breloom when abilities like Dry Skin and Poison Heal are available.

Your argument is extremely situational, relying on these conditions:
1) A person has a Parasect/Breloom on their team - 0.1% and 8.55% respectively (In OU).
2) For some reason these pokemon have these pokemon have the ability effect spore - Parasect 28.5% and Breloom 6.9%.
So we have:
Parasect
0.01*0.285=0.00285
=0.285%

Breloom
0.0855*0.069=0.0058995
=0.59% (2sf)

We'll add these to find the chance of this phenomena occuring:
Roughly 0.875%

Now this isn't a negligible probability, but when the next conditions are taken into account this number become very small indeed.

After this point calculative statistics require significant time to retrieve, So they will be omitted.
3) The team facing the team with the Breloom/Parasect needs to have one sleeping pokemon.
4) The effect spore must put the pokemon to SLEEP.
.30 probability of inducing status, either paralysis, poison, sleep.
So roughly .10 (10%) chance of inducing sleep.
5) A move that makes 'physical contact' with said pokemon needs to be used, and the attacking pokemon cannot have a status negating ability/held item.

I don't really see the need for this to be looked at.

 

[D3FAULT]

It says "by you". Effect Spore can only be activated when your opponent attacks your Breloom, so in effect THEY are activating the chance for sleep. Activating Effect Spore is something that your opponent controls, they can simply use a non-contact move. If you Psycho Shift while you are Sleep Talking, YOU are activating the chance to put your opponent to sleep, so it is different.

What about in the situation that you switch your Breloom in to their contact move? They had no control over that what-so-ever.

 

[D3FAULT]

Fully evolved Pokemon with the ability Effect Spore: 2.
Fully evolved Pokemon with the ability Effect Spore AND a more beneficial ability: 2.

Unless a mistake is made, you would be mad to use effect spore on either Parasect or Breloom when abilities like Dry Skin and Poison Heal are available.

Your argument is extremely situational, relying on these conditions:
1) A person has a Parasect/Breloom on their team - 0.1% and 8.55% respectively (In OU).
2) For some reason these pokemon have these pokemon have the ability effect spore - Parasect 28.5% and Breloom 6.9%.
So we have:
Parasect
0.01*0.285=0.00285
=0.285%

Breloom
0.0855*0.069=0.0058995
=0.59% (2sf)

We'll add these to find the chance of this phenomena occuring:
Roughly 0.875%

Now this isn't a negligible probability, but when the next conditions are taken into account this number become very small indeed.

After this point calculative statistics require significant time to retrieve, So they will be omitted.
3) The team facing the team with the Breloom/Parasect needs to have one sleeping pokemon.
4) The effect spore must put the pokemon to SLEEP.
.30 probability of inducing status, either paralysis, poison, sleep.
So roughly .10 (10%) chance of inducing sleep.
5) A move that makes 'physical contact' with said pokemon needs to be used, and the attacking pokemon cannot have a status negating ability/held item.

I don't really see the need for this to be looked at.

I suppose this is true. The only thing I have in response is that I don't things should be completely overlooked simply because they aren't likely.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

It says "by you". Effect Spore can only be activated when your opponent attacks your Breloom, so in effect THEY are activating the chance for sleep. Activating Effect Spore is something that your opponent controls, they can simply use a non-contact move. If you Psycho Shift while you are Sleep Talking, YOU are activating the chance to put your opponent to sleep, so it is different.

[devil's advocate]

You know, I don't see why I should be penalized for something that I didn't have complete control over. In that case, you only have a 1 in 3 chance of picking a Sleep move (assuming 4 moves). I didn't select a Sleep move, yet I put a second Pokemon to sleep so I should lose automatically--how is that fair?

What if it was Metronome and Spore instead of Sleep Talk and Psycho Shift? What if it was Assist and Spore? Those situations are even less likely, but they also technically violate Sleep Clause, don't they? Why should that be the case?

[/devil's advocate]

 

[jrrrrrrr]

What about in the situation that you switch your Breloom in to their contact move? They had no control over that what-so-ever.

Yes they did, they knew that Effect Spore exists yet they still opted to use a contact move. Do you not want a chance for Effect Spore to activate? Don't use contact moves.

You know, I don't see why I should be penalized for something that I didn't have complete control over. In that case, you only have a 1 in 3 chance of picking a Sleep move (assuming 4 moves). I didn't select a Sleep move, yet I put a second Pokemon to sleep so I should lose automatically--how is that fair?

Because you do have complete control over it. Every time you hit "Sleep Talk" with Psycho Shift as one of your other moves (while sleeping), you are willingly creating a situation with a 33% chance of the other pokemon being put to sleep.

What if it was Metronome and Spore instead of Sleep Talk and Psycho Shift? What if it was Assist and Spore? Those situations are even less likely, but they also technically violate Sleep Clause, don't they? Why should that be the case?

I don't know what *actually* happens because I haven't tested this, but I can imagine that it would be the same situation. By using those moves (especially with Assist+Spore), you know full well that there is a chance that this would happen. Just because they are unlikely, doesn't mean that it is suddenly ok to put more than one of your opponent's mons to sleep.

 

[Objection]

I don't think the issue here is likelihood. The issue is whether you have complete control over putting a pokemon to sleep, and outside of the player manually selecting sleep-inducing moves like Spore, Hypnosis and Yawn, there is nothing that gives you complete control.

Sleep Talk selecting Psycho Shift or any other sleep-inducing move? Using Sleep Talk is the player's choice, it selecting Psycho Shift is out of the player's control. Effect Spore? Totally out of the player's control. Assist selecting a sleep-inducing move? Same scenario as Sleep Talk selecting Psycho Shift, as is Metronome selecting a sleep-inducing move.

Either way, the only penalty that the player should receive for trying to put two pokemon to sleep is the sleep effect failing, which I believe is the case right now.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I get what Gay Dolphin is saying, but it still is a bit odd.
I don't agree with on statement though:

Yes they did, they knew that Effect Spore exists yet they still opted to use a contact move. Do you not want a chance for Effect Spore to activate? Don't use contact moves.

If there is infact a scenario with an Effect Spore Breloom Sporing one pokemon, the opponent controls the possibility of a second sleep, and not the Breloom user. Is that fair?

 

[D3FAULT]

Either way, the only penalty that the player should receive for trying to put two pokemon to sleep is the sleep effect failing, which I believe is the case right now.

This is the case on shoddy. What about REAL Pokemon? (wifi)

 

[Carl]

I really doubt you're going to see Effect Spore very often in competitive battling, as someone already mentioned, so I wouldn't be concerned about that. This scenario happens so rarely for Effect Spore that I'd be more amazed if it happened to me on WiFi than anything else. Everyone should be using Breloom's other ability and let's be honest nobody should be using Parasect.

In a WiFi type battle, or any battle really with sleep clause, the person who breaks it should technically lose by default. If you're the Cresselia user and you know you've already put one pokemon to sleep, you shouldn't be using Sleep Talk unless you want to take the risk that Psycho Swift is used and DQ yourself. That player should know the odds and act accordingly. If the Cress user is in danger of losing anyway they should probably gamble for whatever attack they're using. If they're winning, just stay asleep and don't use Sleep Talk. Because they have the option not to use a move that enacts sleep, they're the ones at fault if they do. The Effect Spore ability is something nobody has control over and shouldn't count against sleep clause on WiFi. That's just really unlikely and unlucky if you're on the wrong end of Effect Spore. For moves like Metronome and Assist, you as the battler should know the risk of breaking sleep clause. Assist obviously depends on your team but Metronome pulls from from so many moves that your odds are pretty good that you won't break sleep clause. If you do, that's the risk you were willing to take.

Best rule of thumb, don't put yourself in these situations as a battler if you're not on Shoddy. Use Flamethrower or Heat Wave on that Breloom instead of Fire Punch or Fire Fang if there's no Toxic Orb, etc. Rest/Sleep Talk/Psycho Shift Cress only has one attack so sacrifice the pokemon that is immune or heavily resists that attack to sleep or another status if possible so Cresselia is walled whenever it's using Sleep Talk (assuming you don't have a sleep talker of your own). Treat that Cresselia as you would any other pokemon trying to break sleep clause.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

On the subject of Sleep Clause on WiFi, what about Freeze Clause? If one of the opponents Pokemon is already frozen, is it really your fault that Ice Beam froze yet again? I don't think a player should automatically lose in that case.

Anyway, that's why I try to do my WiFi battling over PBR.

 

[Carl]

Freeze clause is sort of a carry over from RBY since nothing ever thawed out in that generation and fire moves did nothing to help you. By now if you get frozen more than once just consider yourself extremely unlucky and hope you thaw quickly. That's my take on it anyway since I consider freeze clause unnecessary. You're just not as helpless as you were in RBY.

edit: just to clarify, I'm not against freeze clause per se if it is already implemented and my thoughts on it are the same as Syberia's in his post below this.

 

[Syberia]

Freeze Clause is a rule that should only be used on PBR or on simulators where you can directly control the freeze chances of moves. Otherwise, players cannot control whether or not they freeze a second pokemon except by not using Ice-type moves, which opens up all sorts of other problems competitively, considering it's one of the best attacking types out there.

 

[D3FAULT]

Freeze Clause is a rule that should only be used on PBR or on simulators where you can directly control the freeze chances of moves. Otherwise, players cannot control whether or not they freeze a second pokemon except by not using Ice-type moves, which opens up all sorts of other problems competitively, considering it's one of the best attacking types out there.

But the same can be said for the Cress example I gave, right? I can't directly control what move Sleep Talk uses, either. It's not as "breaking" to say (in that example) "no using sleep talk because another Pokemon is asleep" as it is to say "you can't use moves that can cause freeze if a Pokemon is already frozen", but the same basic rule of "I can't choose what happens" applies, yes?

edit: On a side note, I've been frozen two times in a row before, and it isn't fun. :p

 

[Carl]

Well, my argument for that would be that a set with Psycho Shift and Sleep Talk will more than likely have Rest in which case the moveset is designed by the user to induce sleep by nature. Sleep Talk choosing Psycho Shift is not directly under your control but the intention of the moveset is to pass the status to your opponent. By using that combination of moves, I'm looking to inflict my sleep status on other pokemon.

Meanwhile, using the move Ice Beam doesn't always mean I am looking for it to freeze. It's a nice bonus, but my inclusion of Ice Beam in a moveset is more likely for a SE attack against certain types. It's a side effect of the move whereas Psycho Shift inflicting sleep isn't a side effect because the result of it being picked through Sleep Talk is intended. If that makes sense.

 

[Objection]

but the same basic rule of "I can't choose what happens" applies, yes?

Of course, there is then the problem regarding, say, Hypnosis. It has a 60% chance of hitting, so it will either hit or miss and the player cannot decide whether it hits or not. Does "I can't choose what happens" apply here as well? Obviously not, since the intent was for the move to hit. Therefore, when does that argument apply?

 

[D3FAULT]

Well, my argument for that would be that a set with Psycho Shift and Sleep Talk will more than likely have Rest in which case the moveset is designed by the user to induce sleep by nature. Sleep Talk choosing Psycho Shift is not directly under your control but the intention of the moveset is to pass the status to your opponent. By using that combination of moves, I'm looking to inflict my sleep status on other pokemon.

Meanwhile, using the move Ice Beam doesn't always mean I am looking for it to freeze. It's a nice bonus, but my inclusion of Ice Beam in a moveset is more likely for a SE attack against certain types. It's a side effect of the move whereas Psycho Shift inflicting sleep isn't a side effect because the result of it being picked through Sleep Talk is intended. If that makes sense.

Actually, the original intent of Psycho Shift (in the particular example I showed, with Cress) would be to transfer a burn to the opponent. (Cress holding a Flame Orb for its item..) Not Sleep. When sleeping, I use Rest Talk in hopes of using the 4th move, probably an attack move such as Psychic or Ice Beam.

Also, I have had people spam Ice Beam before even when it's not super effective just in the hopes of getting freeze, because it was their only hope of stopping my sweep. (and it worked, btw..)

Of course, there is then the problem regarding, say, Hypnosis. It has a 60% chance of hitting, so it will either hit or miss and the player cannot decide whether it hits or not. Does "I can't choose what happens" apply here as well? Obviously not, since the intent was for the move to hit. Therefore, when does that argument apply?

Using Hypnosis has one effect: Sleep. If you use it, you know for sure that if it hits you will break sleep clause (assuming the fact that another Poke on the opposing team is asleep).

When you use Sleep Talk, on the set I showed, it can have 3 different effects, and they are chosen at random: Rest (useless), Psycho Shift, or the 4th move.

 

[Carl]

Right, but if Sleep Talk called Psycho Shift and Psycho Shift always failed to transfer sleep under the game's mechanics then there is no incentive to use a set like Rest/Sleep Talk/Psycho Shift/Attack because when sleeping you'd only have a 33% chance of doing anything useful with Sleep Talk. Granted, that's better than doing nothing while sleeping but is it worth the move slot to carry ST? No, probably not. The moveset is much stronger based on the fact that Psycho Shift can not only transfer a burn when awake but can also transfer sleep when not awake. It's no accident that you use Sleep Talk with this set. The intent is still there because it's a valid option and it works.

Yes, people will spam Ice Beam in hopes of getting a freeze but notice how you said they did it only when they had no other options. It is usually not the primary objective to spam ice attacks because you don't always get a freeze from them. I don't add a move like Ice Beam to Starmie with the intent to freeze everything, I add it because it hits grass pokemon super effective and gives me something to scare Salamence with, etc. Ice moves are arguably the best attacking type moves in the game.. that's why they're used.

I guess the difference is that the reasoning for using ice attacks is usually for type coverage while the reasoning for using the aforementioned Cresselia is to inflict status, be it burn or sleep, always.

When you use Sleep Talk, on the set I showed, it can have 3 different effects, and they are chosen at random: Rest (useless), Psycho Shift, or the 4th move.

Here's what I'm getting at, I guess. You don't have to use those 3 moves on the Cresselia set, you choose to use them as the team builder. As a team builder I can't remove the freeze effect from ice attacks.

 

[D3FAULT]

Right, but if Sleep Talk called Psycho Shift and Psycho Shift always failed to transfer sleep under the game's mechanics then there is no incentive to use a set like Rest/Sleep Talk/Psycho Shift/Attack because when sleeping you'd only have a 33% chance of doing anything useful with Sleep Talk. Granted, that's better than doing nothing while sleeping but is it worth the move slot to carry ST? No, probably not. The moveset is much stronger based on the fact that Psycho Shift can not only transfer a burn when awake but can also transfer sleep when not awake. It's no accident that you use Sleep Talk with this set. The intent is still there because it's a valid option and it works.

Yes, people will spam Ice Beam in hopes of getting a freeze but notice how you said they did it only when they had no other options. It is usually not the primary objective to spam ice attacks because you don't always get a freeze from them. I don't add a move like Ice Beam to Starmie with the intent to freeze everything, I add it because it hits grass pokemon super effective and gives me something to scare Salamence with, etc. Ice moves are arguably the best attacking type moves in the game.. that's why they're used.

I guess the difference is that the reasoning for using ice attacks is usually for type coverage while the reasoning for using the aforementioned Cresselia is to inflict status, be it burn or sleep, always.



Here's what I'm getting at, I guess. You don't have to use those 3 moves on the Cresselia set, you choose to use them as the team builder. As a team builder I can't remove the freeze effect from ice attacks.

The point of this thread is not necessarily that Cress set. That particular set is something I saw and changed up a bit. The real point here, is why is it okay for Effect Spore to cause sleep, and not something else random? I don't see how the fact that it's not likely that a Poke has Effect Spore changes the fact, since that's not the only example in this thread.

As the title says, clarification as to why it's okay for one random event to cause sleep and not another. Or, is Effect Spore just a random exception, because it isn't likely?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

The point of this thread is not necessarily that Cress set. That particular set is something I saw and changed up a bit. The real point here, is why is it okay for Effect Spore to cause sleep, and not something else random? I don't see how the fact that it's not likely that a Poke has Effect Spore changes the fact, since that's not the only example in this thread.

As the title says, clarification as to why it's okay for one random event to cause sleep and not another. Or, is Effect Spore just a random exception, because it isn't likely?

It is not ok for something else that is random to break Sleep Clause, where are you getting this from?

If you use Sleep Powder, you have a 75% chance of putting something to sleep. If you use Breloom with Effect Spore, you have a 10% chance of putting something to sleep on contact. If you use Metronome, you have a 1 in 400 (or however many moves there are) chance of putting something to sleep. Just because something is less likely doesn't make it ok. All of them are random, and they all break Sleep Clause if they are used on more than one opposing mon.

I don't think the issue here is likelihood. The issue is whether you have complete control over putting a pokemon to sleep, and outside of the player manually selecting sleep-inducing moves like Spore, Hypnosis and Yawn, there is nothing that gives you complete control.

Sleep Talk selecting Psycho Shift or any other sleep-inducing move? Using Sleep Talk is the player's choice, it selecting Psycho Shift is out of the player's control. Effect Spore? Totally out of the player's control. Assist selecting a sleep-inducing move? Same scenario as Sleep Talk selecting Psycho Shift, as is Metronome selecting a sleep-inducing move.

You ARE in complete control of the situation. As soon as you select Sleep Talk with Psycho Shift while sleeping, it is the same thing as using a 33% accurate Sleep Powder.

I get what Gay Dolphin is saying, but it still is a bit odd.
I don't agree with on statement though:

If there is infact a scenario with an Effect Spore Breloom Sporing one pokemon, the opponent controls the possibility of a second sleep, and not the Breloom user. Is that fair?

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. You, the Effect Spore Breloom user, are knowingly creating a situation where your opponent has a chance to be put to sleep. I'll just repeat what I said up there- using Effect Spore Breloom is the same thing as using a 10% accurate Sleep Powder.

 

[D3FAULT]

It is not ok for something else that is random to break Sleep Clause, where are you getting this from?

It has always been my understanding that a Pokemon that is put to sleep by Effect Spore does not count towards Sleep Clause. Like I said in the first post, if I'm incorrect here, then this thread is basically useless.

For example, Serebii's (yes, yes, I know...) Stadard Rules thread says this, regarding Sleep Clause:
"...Sleeping being caused by Effect Spore or Rest are disconsidered from Sleep Clause."

I know Serebii is not the authority here, but that's been my understanding, and I've seen it in more places than Serebii.

 

[petrie911]

You know, it seems like this question could be resolved by going to PBR and seeing how it implements sleep clause in these situations. It may not be the most fair or whatever, but it would be the official implementation of it. And most of these scenarios are rather rare, anyways.

 

[D3FAULT]

You know, it seems like this question could be resolved by going to PBR and seeing how it implements sleep clause in these situations. It may not be the most fair or whatever, but it would be the official implementation of it. And most of these scenarios are rather rare, anyways.

This is a good idea, although I don't have PBR, so..

How does it treat normal moves like Hypnosis? Does it not allow the user to choose them, or does it just "fail" like on shoddy?

 

[Death Phenomeno]

How does it treat normal moves like Hypnosis? Does it not allow the user to choose them, or does it just "fail" like on shoddy?

Things like Hypnosis say "But it failed!" if you try to use them again.

Dark Void, for example, targets the faster one first, and if it succeeds, the slower one "automatically" evades the attack. If it fails to sleep the faster one for whatever reason, the slower one can get slept if it doesn't miss.