Skillmons [Coming back soon™]

Joim said:
So: do we just change accuracy for base power? Do we get rid of low chance secondaries in exchange for more base power? It's less mod-y, but it's also a bit shit.
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I am a supporter of this. Makes it simple and unopinionated. 84 BP Focus Blast may seem outclassed but its distribution allows it to be viable on mons like Gengar who can't Aura Sphere. For low chance secondaries I think just add a 10% buff to base power. Or perhaps allow non-whole number stages, so SpD lowered by 0.1 stages is a x0.967 multiplier to SpD.

I think it's perfectly OK that moves like Hydro Pump become 84 BP and outclassed by Surf. In regular play, moves like Surf, Flamethrower etc are used over their 110 BP counterparts to take luck out of the factor (and more PP etc but that's the main one). So it makes sense that Hydro Pump is not as viable in a luckless game. Sure the meta may end up a bit stally but I'm sure this is inevitable anyway......uhh leaving the stall-vs-skill debate here. If stall becomes too viable then bans can be made.

Overall I see too much emotional attachment to fixing things that shouldn't be fixed. E.g. Minimize should just stay banned (why even bother trying to save it?), and Hydro Pump should remain an inferior Surf. Why do you want to make every move viable anyway?
 
I wholeheartedly approve of 0.1 stage modifications for low chance secondaries, personally. And yeah, making every move viable while removing luck is rather difficult to do when a lot of move legitimacy is centered around "powerful but risky" vs "reliable but weaker".
 
I'm finally doing this, I'm convinced:
New Base Power = Old Base Power * Old Accuracy / 100
This is easy to understand, fast to learn, is luckless and makes sense.

Updating OP to reflect it. Also preparing my Lab so it has ability, item, and move changes.
 
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Joim said:
I'm finally doing this, I'm convinced:
New Base Power = Old Base Power * Old Accuracy / 100
Add the percentage of removed secondary effect moves, that is, a 10% secondary is a *1.1 on base power. This is easy to understand, fast to learn, is luckless and makes sense.

Updating OP to reflect it. Also preparing my Lab so it has ability, item, and move changes.
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I'd like to be clear on perfect accuracy moves.
do they have unchanged accuracy(which would essentially be 100 here since no missing) or get accuracy changed to 100 with power increases or accuracy changed to 100 with no power increase.
 
Old 100% or true accuracy moves: No base Power change. Keeping all secondary points due to sheer force. Also updated the OP thoroughly with this rule.
 
For a skill-based Sleep Talk, maybe get both players to vote for a move? If both pick the same move, ST uses that move. If both pick differently, ST uses the 3rd move that did not get picked (if that moveslot is empty, the user's vote wins - makes it so "ST + 2 moves" sets always get to win, in return for giving up the 4th moveslot). For each move the user didn't reveal yet, the opponent's voting panel displays sth like "[Move 1]".

Yeah a fairly complex mechanic but it serves to eliminate RNG luck and event sequences. There's only "prediction luck" which we're OK with.

Also it seems like you're completely set on having a points system (I don't like that but ok). Let me say this - if you have point systems for everything, why not include one for critical hits and misses too? That would simplify 99% of the changes you put in... Frost Breath, Anger Point, even Sheer Cold. You don't even need to BP*Accuracy anymore. Crits become luckless. A "Super Luck" mon just accumulates CH points twice as fast as normal. Get 100 points, get a crit. Same concept for misses. How ridiculous does this sound?
 
That would be changing the move too much. I prefer for it to choose a move in. A deterministic way.

Regarding crits, you do have a point. Why not use the point system for crits? Well, I just wanted to get rid of crits entirely, as they have a too heavy effect on the game. So, I could just remove low chance secondaries and add those to the base power of the move, I just wanted secondaries to still happen. But this is up for discussion.

What's the best option, points or direct base power increase?
What happens then with Sheer Power?
 
I think the points system is cool for secondary effects, but having to keep track of it for literally every attacking move for critical hits sounds like kind of a pain.
 
Well, having to worry about a guaranteed critical eventually would be kind of interesting as it would put more pressure on defensive setup. It's not just that you might get crit, it's that you will get crit eventually and you'd better be ready when that happens. Even if "being ready" is just setting up a substitute on the turn the crit is about to happen. I dunno. It's definitely a very neat concept.
 
Im towards having no-point system. Personally, I'd rather have a small power increase for moves instead of 1.5x every 16 turns. Less complicated, imo.

As for Sheer Force, if the move had 10% secondary chance, sheer force will boost 10%. Thoughts on that?
 
I see a two-sided argument between the 2 methods we know of (currently). Both create a luckless meta:
A) points system replaces RNG, or
B) create partial states for everything (semi-burn, 0.1-stage boosts)

Going A for some mechanics and B for others seems rather arbitrary, unless technical difficulty of course. It doesn't matter how much crits affect the game, as long as you can predict when they happen the job is done. Ideally you pick either A or B and stick to it all the way through for consistency sake. My thoughts; A is easier to implement while B is more fair. You should either put crits & misses into points system, or scrap it entirely and find a new solution for low chance statuses / stat drops.

As for secondaries (answering your question), convert them to extra power but don't multiply to BP - just have the 10% power increase as the secondary effect, and Sheer Force will work as expected.
 
QxC4eva said:
As for secondaries (answering your question), convert them to extra power but don't multiply to BP - just have the 10% power increase as the secondary effect, and Sheer Force will work as expected.
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Damn, that's a genius answer, that'll do if we go no-points.
 
IMO, crits should only happen when it's probability is 1. No random crits, even in a pokémon who is holding scope lens, but CritDra would be still viable since the probability of having a crit holding scope lens and using focus energy is 1. Also, frost breath and storm throw should always crit the foes.
It is only my personal opinion about that, mantain crits but eliminate it's hax.
 
These moves having 1.5 bp and ignoring defensive boosts are more or less "always critting", though.
 
If I'm not wrong, Focus Blast now gets a base power of 84 (120 * 70/100?) and perfect accuracy. This means we can finally get a more widely-distributed reliable special fighting-type move that's not HP Fighting!

All in one, this sounds like a pretty fun meta. Might drop by someday to experiment "Skillmons", or what Pokemon could've been like if it was made having only the competitive scene in mind.
 
This is really interesting and defonitely fun to try out. Some things like Hone Claws are not working, and Defog lowers the wrong stat. But I am sure you know this and it will be fixed soon. Thanks a lot for this, Joim. Can't wait for this to be 100% finished.
 
Red vs Blue said:
Evasion should increase speed imo. When I think of something evasive I imagine it being speedy.

This seems really fun though. :)
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I suppose he just saw them as opposites - which they are, to be honest - and so he wanted them to do the opposite; if accuracy's raising offense, evasiveness would raise defense. (I'm pretty sure you already knew this, and I'm just stating the obvious. But if done flavor-wise, I do agree with evasiveness being tagged with speed)
 
Joim said:
  • Using a current 30% secondary move 100 times will lead to the outcome of that secondary to happen exactly 30 times. No more, no less.
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So tl;dr how to misunderstand statistics? Cause I hope you know statistics don't work this way (and I know you probably do, knowing you, you're pretty decently smart) and this just makes no sense to implement aside to please people who don't understand stats?
 
Monte Cristo said:
So tl;dr how to misunderstand statistics? Cause I hope you know statistics don't work this way (and I know you probably do, knowing you, you're pretty decently smart) and this just makes no sense to implement aside to please people who don't understand stats?
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the point is effects happen if 100 effect points are cumulated and 30% would grant 30 EP which times 100 is 3000 which divided by 100 is 30 which is the amount of times it will activate(assuming its possible for the effect to activate on the opposing pokemon)
 
Focus Band is not mentioned anywhere, what does it do? I think it should allow you to negate one hit that would have killed you, if your health is below 40%. And Wide Lens should be "30% Power if you go last", it's more inline with it's usual effect.
 
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