Skill Swap

[Its_A_Random]

Moderated_Discussion_Stay_On_Topic.avi​

One day in the past I threw up a 2v2 singles battle to try and prove that no decay on stat boosters happen. Deck of all people accepted. He let me set up my strategy of using Power Lens Volbeat to Baton Pass a +6 SpA Boost to a Special Attacker with Giga Drain and demolish him. What does this have to do with Skill Swap? This battle was the first instance of Skill Swap being used to "steal an ability". I objected but he said no and force implemented it to "benefit Levitate Pokémon" or something. And the rest is history. Now said ability to steal abilities has now been thrust into the policy spotlight. Why? Read the quotes:

Let's see if I can make a post here that isn't just me complaining.

Currently, Skill Swap is as follows:

Skill Swap: The user fires up to three beams that connect with the target(s). Each beam switches one of the user's Abilities with one of the target's. Each beam must be resolved fully before the next beam may be processed. If the match rules include All Abilities, and the user has less than three (3) Abilities, they may elect to give their targets nothing in exchange for the stolen Ability. When a Pokemon affected by Skill Swap leaves play, their Abilities are restored to normal.

I have a problem with this for several reason. First, this effect lasts until the opposing Pokemon switches out, which isn't always an option for that player (i.e. if that's their last Pokemon), whereas a lot of permanent effects in the games are given temporary ones in ASB. Second, lets look at some of the more prominent Skill Swappers:

Gardevoir
Gallade
Gengar

There are many others, but these are the main ones. Every one of these Pokemon is a high tier threat, and have an ability they won't mind giving up in exchange for an ability, with the exception of Gengar. Which brings me to my third point, if you have less than three abilities in an All Abilities (and let's be honest, when was the last time you saw a One Ability match?) then you get to outright take an ability from your opponent for nothing in return. In one move. Not only is this effect not present in the games but it becomes exceptionally strong if you end up, say, with a Gengar vs Mega Kangaskhan matchup and you steal Scrappy (causing his attacks to potentially miss) and Parental Bond. And then Gengar Mega Evolves to ruin your day.

I think these reasons are sufficient to put this move under the magnifying lens.

RE Above: "Deck"

I do not see much of an issue with it however.

- I really don't think adding a duration to Skill Swap would be an altogether bad thing. Lots of other things that are permanent in game have a duration here in ASB.

About Maxim's Skill Swap issue: There's one nitpick I have about the "3 Abilities maximum" part, which basically got thrown out of the window with the advent of, let's say, Hyper Cutter / Intimidate / Sheer Force / Huge Power Mega-Mawile. In fact, Basculin was hipster long before Megas exist. Also, aside from the prime abusers Maxim mentioned, most of the Skill Swappers in-catridge already has decent abilities, except maybe a couple who had nothing but Levitate. I'd suggest that you absolutely need to trade one Ability for another to avoid these "I'll just take your Ability and give nothing back" scenarios as a slight nerf, but deadfox's suggestion seems pretty okay too. Support for Discussion.

So what do with regards to Skill Swap? Do nothing? Remove the Steal Ability bit? Add a duration which I think is really unrealistic for flavour-based reasons? Anything else no one has thought of?

Well that is why this thread exists. Time to discuss Skill Swap I guess?

 

[Matezoide]

I will be honest, i never really liked the ''Steal Ability'' bit. At the very least, the pokemon should pay extra energy for that, as ability steal is incredibly powerful.

Adding a duration to Skill-Swap also feels unrealistic and frankly, unneeded.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

iirc the ability stealing portion of Skill Swap used to exist only when the user had only one ability (e.g. Gengar, but not Gengar after stealing one ability) in an All Abilities match

I don't particularly care if we keep the ability stealing capability of Skill Swap, but as it stands I don't really like the "less than three abilities" clause, because really there should be no way in which you go from having fewer abilities to more abilities than the opponent. I'd argue for something like "at least two fewer abilities than the opponent" which is functionally the same if the enemy has four abilities (hi mega evos) but restricts this use of the move to Pokemon with only one ability against the more common three-ability Pokemon, which is more fair imo

 

[Frosty]

Just allow mons with less than 3 abilities to steal an ability once per match? or once per send out? I agree that stealing two is kinda over the top, but stealing one isn't out of whack imo.

As for a duration, it was really a random choice to keep it permanent. But putting a duration is also kinda random. Its a matter of preferance imo and personally I don't particularly care. I do agree though that on a last-mon situation it may be a bit too good, specially considering that pretty much everything else decays in ASB. 6 actions seems like a good benchmark for a discussion/voting imo.

 

[deadfox081]

I'd very much agree with a six action duration. How exactly Skill Swap should interact with stealing abilities I am not sure, but I agree that simply giving nothing in return seems a tiny bit silly. IIRC back when we had traits then Gengar swapped Levitate onto other mons without losing the ability itself, maybe something like this could be put into effect?

 

[Frosty]

le bump

if no discussion in 72h I will slate this.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Allow mons to steal one ability, [Lesser ability mons need it for counter play] Gallade and Gengar are OP anyway. And not allowing a steal affects the move in general for everyone, More importantly to Mismagius, Delphox, Aromatisse and other less used pokemon.

6 Actions is not worth it to even consider such a play as a gained ability might not be of much benefit outside of 2 actions while ordering second. As the opp would counter play around the ability for the rest of the actions remaining on Skill Swap. Other six action moves like Screens, Focus Energy don't have that many counter plays, so they are worth for 6 actions.

Summary:
Allow only one ability to be stolen after send out.
No duration for the ability.

 

[tavok]

6 actions is enough for making great plays while not being overpowered. And, if we follow what you say, your opponent can play around it even if it has infinite duration while ordering second. If Roleplay, which could be said to be an inferior version of Skill Swap in most situations, has a duration, why the hell doesn't Skill Swap.

Gastro Acid and Worry Seed, the other ability-affecting moves (that I remember, at least), also decay.

Examples: Taking Flash Fire away from a fire type and absorb the fire type attacks. Everyone has seen this.
Same can be said about things like Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, Motor Drive, etc: you are gaining a couple actions of no damage + benefits if the opponent doesn't see it coming.
Making yourself invulnerable to the opponent's STAB is one hell of a benefit.

Then there are some Pokémon that need their abilities to be useful. Like, let's say, Medicham (not the best example, but couldn't think of anything else): take away the ability and it becomes laughable. Oh, and most of the time you are also getting one hell of a tool for yourself.

Skill Swap is an incredibly powerful effect, more powerful than a lot of effects that decay. So it not decaying doesn't make much sense IMO.

Allow mons to steal one ability, [Lesser ability mons need it for counter play] Gallade and Gengar are OP anyway.

Then why are we allowing them to have more tools to be OP .-.
We shouldn't break a move just so a couple mons get a niche.

Or, at least, that's my opinion. Sorry if it sounds rude or anything.

 

[akela]

The other abilities also cost no more than 8 EN. Skill Swap costs 14 EN if 2 abilities are being swapped, 7 EN if one is being stolen.

 

[tavok]

But the other moves don't take away anything from the opponent. In the case of Skill Swap, you are acquiring their ability and using it against them: heck, with how Skill Swap works, you can take an opponent's ability and swap it all the way to your partner in multi battles. Or change abilities with a partner who will make better use of the Skill Swapper's ability or get an ability from them that the Skill Swapper's will put to better use. It offers many, many possibilities over the other moves to justify the higher EN cost.

And not to mention the posibility of passing a bad ability to the opponent like Klutz or Dry Skin (fire moves) or something.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I never saw Skill Swap as too broken; just remove the steal effect and it is fine. No silly durations, no EC rises, just stay true to ingame with the multiple swap option in place. There is no need to reinvent the wheel with this.

If it is still "too good" after a while then we can revisit this further down the line.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Putting the small discussion we had on IRC for reference

IRC discussion

09:34 Gale Huge list of mons will be affected
09:34 Gale Poor Butterfree
09:35 guacamole butterfree likes its abilities...
09:35 elevator_music well, just like how gengar et all will still be op even with nerfed skill swap
09:35 Gale Yeah
09:35 elevator_music its not like those pkmn were any good to begin with >_>
09:36 guacamole ^
09:36 Its_A_Random gengar was good before skill swap
09:36 Its_A_Random forcing it to give up levitate to swap is a big hit
09:36 Gale Yeah, and it can get only one Ability in non Mega form
09:37 Its_A_Random skill swap isnt that broken
09:37 Its_A_Random remove the steal effect and it is fine
09:37 elevator_music agreed
09:37 Gale Yeah that should probably fix it
09:37 elevator_music at the very least, if it is still too good we can just further nerf it later
09:38 elevator_music but realistically its probably fine to just remove the dumb steal effect
09:38 guacamole I guess

 

[Dogfish44]

In general, I'd rather have permanency on Ability Shifts - add a 6a duration to Skill Swap and I forsee more of my ruling migraines, especially in triples+ or anywhere near Role Play.

The ability steal is silly for 2-ability mons, and even though a lot of Levitators lose out (Levitate tends to be a single ability, with only Duskull, the Stratagem line, and the Bronzong line different), it's probably easier this way. If we still feel it's too powerful, or we want to re-implement steals for 1 ability, we can do so at a later date I reckon.

 

[Gerard]

Alternatively we could allow stealing only if the pokemon has already swapped all the abilities he had before skill swap was used. Levitate mons could still steal more than one ability but to do so he would have to first swap levitate and then another.

Another thing that could work is to increase the Energy cost as more abilities are swapped or if another pokemon gains an ability over the number he naturally has.

 

[Maxim]

I never saw Skill Swap as too broken; just remove the steal effect and it is fine. No silly durations, no EC rises, just stay true to ingame with the multiple swap option in place. There is no need to reinvent the wheel with this.

If it is still "too good" after a while then we can revisit this further down the line.

After thinking about this topic, I think I agree with IAR here. We should get rid of the ability steal and leave it otherwise the same, then we can nerf it again later if it proves too powerful. As for the "let them only steal one ability" crowd...I don't really see how this fixes things as you're still stealing an ability which you can't normally do in game (you can't steal an ability to gain two abilities at the same time in cartridge).

Personally I'd like to see a duration or a user switching out clause, but that seems a lost cause at this point. Still I agree with tavok where Role Play and most other moves that focus on disabling or stealing an ability are temporary. Heck, if you only steal one ability it's actually less cost than any of those options.

Just my two cents.

 

[Gerard]

User switching out? You lose any ability you swapped after switching out already if that's what you mean.

 

[tavok]

I think he means that the opponent should also get their ability back.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm of the mind you can balance properly only with "Steal Ability if your opponent has greater than one (>1) more ability more than your Pokemon."

This means Skill Swap can steal 1 ability in 1 vs (3 or 4) abilities, and 1 ability in 2 vs 4 abilities, but can never steal in 1 vs 2 or 2 vs 3 abilities.

That still leaves Gengar with a pretty powerful tool, but once it Mega-Evolves it loses that tool, so it has to Skill Swap before M-Evolving. Gallade can use it against 4 ability Megas before M-Evolving as well, but Gardevior's only choice is to swap.

This still gets to the original intent, which was to make Skill Swap on Pokemon like Lunatone / Solrock / Claydol quite a powerful option, as those Pokemon (well, not Claydol so much) really don't want to swap out Levitate for a single other ability. Gengar is kind of in the same boat, but a Gengar using Skill Swap instead of an attack is often opening itself up to lose a damage race.

 

[Frosty]

le Bump.

Slate in 72h if no more comments. Pls comment.

 

[Frosty]

On Skill Swap's Duration:

As is (until switched out)
6 actions
In addition to current rules, Skill Swap fades for all parties involved when the User switches out

On stealing

As is
Remove the possibility of stealing
Keep stealing only for mons with 1 ability
Steal Ability if your opponent has greater than one (>1) more ability more than your Pokemon

I am tempted to slate the possibility of swapping 3 times too, as I find that way too game-changing. But since it wasn't discussed I will let it go.


48h before discussion

 

[ZhengTann]

IMHO if it wasn't in the planning, the slates should be voted on separately, since there is a possibility of Skill Swap being nerfed out of the window. But that could be just me.

 

[Its_A_Random]

6 actions is enough for making great plays while not being overpowered. And, if we follow what you say, your opponent can play around it even if it has infinite duration while ordering second. If Roleplay, which could be said to be an inferior version of Skill Swap in most situations, has a duration, why the hell doesn't Skill Swap.

Gastro Acid and Worry Seed, the other ability-affecting moves (that I remember, at least), also decay.

Examples: Taking Flash Fire away from a fire type and absorb the fire type attacks. Everyone has seen this.
Same can be said about things like Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, Motor Drive, etc: you are gaining a couple actions of no damage + benefits if the opponent doesn't see it coming.
Making yourself invulnerable to the opponent's STAB is one hell of a benefit.

Then there are some Pokémon that need their abilities to be useful. Like, let's say, Medicham (not the best example, but couldn't think of anything else): take away the ability and it becomes laughable. Oh, and most of the time you are also getting one hell of a tool for yourself.

Skill Swap is an incredibly powerful effect, more powerful than a lot of effects that decay. So it not decaying doesn't make much sense IMO.

Then why are we allowing them to have more tools to be OP .-.
We shouldn't break a move just so a couple mons get a niche.

Or, at least, that's my opinion. Sorry if it sounds rude or anything.

Saying we should nerf something (in this case, reducing the duration) because similar effects have the effect that is desired says nothing about if Skill Swap is too good in the sense that it needs a finite duration. It just feels as if people are getting all OCD over the fact that Skill Swap having no duration while similar moves do and want it fixed to satisfy their OCD. You are saying "Why not?" Instead you should be asking "Why is it like it is in the first place?" The real questions are, does the infinite duration on Skill Swap matter for long enough to consistently make a relevant impact? Is Skill Swap as "too good" as Frosty makes it out to be in the last Pokémon situation? I personally do not think that either of these have been proven as of yet to warrant this change.

Personally I'd like to see a duration or a user switching out clause, but that seems a lost cause at this point. Still I agree with tavok where Role Play and most other moves that focus on disabling or stealing an ability are temporary. Heck, if you only steal one ability it's actually less cost than any of those options.

Just my two cents.

This seems like an unnecessary butchering of a powerful move like Skill Swap, especially given it stops a last ditch scenario that does not even seem remotely "too good". Honestly, is a last ditch Skill Swap before the user faints to take out the opponent's <insert important ability here> too good to the point where we really should do this?

And again, saying we should put a finite duration on something because similar things have said duration says nothing about Skill Swap being too good in the sense that a finite duration is necessary.

---

IMO, I would not slate duration at all because there has not been a single convincing argument that calls for it. Last mon situation was briefly touched on but said user who mentioned it has not deliberated on why the last mon situation warrants a duration nerf. The steal scenario on the other hand goes against the intent of the move, has been proven in enough battles to make a relevant impact and hence, warrants a look at either removing or nerfing.

 

[Frosty]

The Skill Swap time limitations were brought up by 4/12 of the posters here, 2 of those council members (btw I went from "kinda indiferent" to "actually skill swap should have time limitations for reasons I may post soon enough"). Quality of the arguments is not only a subjective matter, but also, and more importantly, it is valid to determine the vote not the slate. I usually slate any option that received enough support/arguments to not be dismissed as entirely off the mark. While that parameter is also subjective, 1/3 support and 2 council members in favor is "good enough support" (heck, 2 council member support is enough to reach that status probably). The fact that the same 4/12 posters and 2 council members were against the subject, while the final third remained silent only adds to that.

If my math is wrong blame me being tired and now being a bit late.

But I can (and will) switch the order and go the most discussed option first. Depending on the result of the steal part, the time limitations may prove to be unnecessary or almost obligatory.


EDIT: Also if more discussion on time limitations happen, I will probably send the other part to the booth and then maybe send the time part later.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Guys, I have a simple point to make.

Timing Skill Swap only creates more headaches to the refs and the players. There would be a lot of players who would forget that their abilities got swapped. In a serious battle, the refs and players concentrate more but it is still a pain. Unless we absolutely need it and unless its broken as hell, we should not alter things for satisfying our OCD for similarities between moves. (As IAR pointed out)

If we start on those lines, then there are lot of moves, abilities and items that need some sort of modification to be similar to others. For example, 1) The need to treat Mat Block in the same way as Protect. 2) Or why is only Durin, Watmel and Belue Berries available? Why not one for each type? Why not one for Grass? 3) Or Detect to avoid the effect during cool down and you guys definitely know a lot of others that we have discussed.

A wise Guy once said, "If its not broken, don't fix it." And I believe he is right.

 

[Frosty]

I intend to bring up some points regarding time limitations soon. So, I will postpone the questioning for duration and booth the stealing part. Just so you know that the discussion won't die even after the next voting is dealt with.