Shelgon and Salamence

Lugia

Lugia

Shelgon and Salamence are both Dragon-type Pokemon. They are both usable, although Shelgon is never seen. That is because people think that it is not strong enough. Well, look at this:

372.png
Shelgon

Rock Head Recoil moves have no recoil. Type Tier Dragon NFE Statistics
Min- Min Max Max+ HP 65
- 271 334 - Atk 95
203 226 289 317 Def 100
212 236 299 328 SpA 60
140 156 219 240 SpD 50
122 136 199 218 Spe 50
122 136 199 218BST: 430

373.png
Salamence

Intimidate Lowers the foe's Attack 1 stage. Decreases wild encounter rate. Type Tier Dragon / Flying OU Statistics
Min- Min Max Max+ HP 95
- 331 394 - Atk 135
275 306 369 405 Def 80
176 196 259 284 SpA 110
230 256 319 350 SpD 80
176 196 259 284 Spe 100
212 236 299 328BST: 600

620-430=190

So basically, Shelgon is not shabby.

Weaknesses:
Shelgon: Ice, Dragon
Salamence: Ice, Rock, Dragon

Resistances:
Shelgon: Fire, Water, Electric, Grass
Salamence: Fire, Water, Grass, Fighting, Ground, Bug

Salamence has one more weakness but one more resistance, making it pretty much a tie in typing.

Final Tiers:
Shelgon: UU
Salamence: OU
 
What's your point? Salamence outclasses Shelgon in so many ways that it would take a fair amount of (rather wasted) time to list them all. Shelgon's only plus point is that it isn't as weak to Ice as Sally is, and it loses the Rock weakness. Well, after a Roost, Salamence can exactly the same thing.

I suppose Rock Head can have its merit when combined with Double Edge in the lower tiers, but it's not like you can compare Mence to Shelgon. The two are incomparable.
 
NFEs don't get different tiering. Why? because then UU wolud became OU lite, and no one wants that.

Shelgon is inferior to Salamence in nearly every way...

You don't get to decide tiering just by saying so, it's based on usage.
 
Well, it can be a good defensive wall, but its bad HP really screws it a bit. The best thing it can do is Wall defensively, and it could do that well in UU.
 
First off Salamence is immune to Ground which is kind of important.

And I'm not sure what Shelgon can pull off that Salamence can't. The 2x Ice weak and extra Def might be vaguely useful for a bulkier set, but Salamence gets Roost and Intimidate, which is much better than the nearly useless Rock Head. Shelgon might be decent in UU , it could be there as I would call it a unique NFE, but it really can't do anything better than Salamence.

And Double-Edge really has no place on Shelgon in D/P. Same power as Dragon Claw(80 * 1.5= 120), except it doesn't hit dragons SE or hit ghost or rock types for neutral
 
430 BST does not even compare to 600 BST

Salamence does have a rock weakness, but intimidate helps alleviate that.

You lose speed, power, and bulkiness when using Shelgon.


Also your logic of shelgon being UU makes no sense... it is probably used so little that it would be NU right now

Garchomp could even be BL since the tiers are based off usage with the exception of BL/Uber
 
You know that Shelgon takes about the same damage from an Ice Beam due to his insanely crap SpDef, right?

Or that Salamence's BST is 600, not 620.

Or that BST doesn't mean anything, but even if it did, 190 BST is nothing to shake off with a good hearted "Shelgon is nothing too shabby".

Or that Salamence has two more resistances. As well as an infinitely better trait.
 
I used him in ADV as a physical wall with Wish, since he didn't have any physical weaknesses(unlike Salamence with the rock weakness).

However, in DP, he sucks
 
If you max out both Pokemon's HP and Defense EVs, Salamence is still about 2.1% better at taking physical hits, and this is ignoring Intimidate and Salamence's far superior ability to take special hits. 0 EVs in both still has Salamence ahead by about 1.4%.

This means that Shelgon's superior base Defense falters in comparison to Salamence's superior HP, even before you factor in the incredibly useful Intimidate.

Shelgon's inferior HP and special defense means that if you invest EVs in neither, Salamence takes special hits at about 56% of the equivalent strength vs. Shelgon, meaning it's almost twice as good.

The only thing Shelgon has going for it, therefore, is the ability to take Ice, Electric, and Rock attacks better, and then really only if they are physical. Salamence, meanwhile, actually resists Bug and Fighting and is immune to Ground (also 4x resists Grass), which lets it actually come in. Most Pokemon (Shelgon included) cannot switch into unresisted powerful attacks. Salamence has the useful resistances to switch in.

Even if you get Shelgon in on said physical Electric, Ice, or Rock attacks, what is it going to do? Shelgon has drastically inferior Attack (Salamence has about 25% better at max EVs for both, and the difference only increases as you invest less), and does even worse in the special department (about 46% better special attack for Salamence at 252 EVs).

Then you look at movepool to realize once again that Shelgon cannot do anything. It doesn't learn Defog, Earthquake, Fly, Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, Iron Tail, Refresh, Roost, Steel Wing, Stone Edge, Swift, or Thunder Fang. I believe there is also question as to whether Shelgon learns Wish. In other words, it loses any real tanking options, as well as useful offense.
 
Yeah, Obi I believe Shelgon gets Wish, because the event was a Wish Bagon giveaway.

However, as someone who has actually tried Shelgon, he is unfortunately very inferior to Salamence. The stat-wise thing has already been established, but remember that if Salamence's Roost is quicker than the opponent, his type becomes mono-dragon for that turn, which means that he's just plain better than Shelgon, because he can still stall out Electric, Rock, and sometimes, even the weaker Ice attacks if he's faster, and he usually is because of the 100 base speed.
 
Lugia said:
Shelgon Double-edge vs. Standard Bibarel~136 damage (3HKO)
Click to expand...

Dragon Claw is exactly as strong on every single Pokemon except Dragons and Rocks, where it's twice as powerful, and Ghosts, where Double-Edge does nothing. In other words, your ability is useless.
 
Chris is me said:
NFEs don't get different tiering. Why? because then UU wolud became OU lite, and no one wants that.

Shelgon is inferior to Salamence in nearly every way...

You don't get to decide tiering just by saying so, it's based on usage.
Click to expand...

Actually, only some people don't want that...

Shelgon for UU...besides, usage of Selgon is currently near zero, and the differences are substantial enough to allow it treatment as a separate pokemon.
 
Shelgon can be used in UU, which is a great advantage in my eyes.

so.. shall we discuss what movesets could work in UU?

Wish-Pass
Shelgon@Leftovers
252 HP/4 Defense/252 Sp. Defense
Relaxed
0 spe IV
Wish
Protect
Dragon Claw
Toxic

Maybe Fire Blast, Roar or BB over Toxic?
Maybe abandon Sp. Def and pile it all into Def, however most of its useful resistances are often Sp. Attacks.

Choice Band
Shelgon@Choice Band
252 HP/252 Attack/4 Sp. def
Brave
Dragon Claw
Brick Break
Crunch/Rock Slide
Draco Meteor/Fire Blast

A kinda sturdy CBer with decent power and good resists (Fire, Water, Electric and Grass), and an almost unresisted combo of Fight/Dark, in UU only Toxicroak resists them. STAB Dragon Claw in an environment were Steel is rare could be quite threatening.


Mixed LO
Shelgon@Life Orb
4 HP/252 Attack/252 Sp. Attack
Dragon Claw
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Brick Break

Maybe not such a good set as the others, but there are not that many steels in UU (and those that are tend to be 4x weak to Fighting) and a STAB 140 base power move is not to be underestimated.

I don't think DD would work well due to low speed (50), and Specs off 60 base Sp. attack would fail.

Overall 'Mence if FAR better, but you can't use it in UU so Shelgon has a place were it it not totally overshadowed. It looks to me like it would be able to perform decently in UU, but not really well.

I hope Shelgon and the other NFE's get their own analysis once Obi's idea for UU goes through.

Edit: it does not get EQ, changing sets.
 
Edit: Im gonna reword this. Shelgon in UU just doesn't seem right to me as a Specs Draco Meteor is still gonna kill a lot of stuff along with that good attack score. So if he does get tiered BL would probably be best off for him.

What I was trying to say before was that Shelgon is stupid to be considered better then salamence. Dragonair has a case with his amazing ability but still loses to dragonite. Shelgon has no case at all to compare himself to salamence.
 
Mekkah never said that moving Shelgon down was dumb, he showed that Salamence was far better in almost every way.
Have you read the NFE's in UU topic? The agreement there is that ALL NFE's will be placed in the tier that fits their power, once Obi's idea about UU is agreed upon and implemented.

If you disagree with this post there.

Edit: replying to your edited post
Edit: Im gonna reword this. Shelgon in UU just doesn't seem right to me as a Specs Draco Meteor is still gonna kill a lot of stuff along with that good attack score. So if he does get tiered BL would probably be best off for him.
Click to expand...
Specs DM off 60 Sp. attack... not really that threatening IMO, Altaria has Base 70 with better defenses more speed and its not broken in UU.

What I was trying to say before was that Shelgon is stupid to be considered better then salamence. Dragonair has a case with his amazing ability but still loses to dragonite. Shelgon has no case at all to compare himself to salamence.
Click to expand...
I totally agree that Salamence is FAR better then Shelgon, but you can't use 'Mence in UU.
 
Lugia said:
Shelgon and Salamence are both Dragon-type Pokemon. They are both usable, although Shelgon is never seen. That is because people think that it is not strong enough. Well, look at this:

372.png
Shelgon
...
BST: 430

Salamence
...
BST: 600
Click to expand...
This SHOULD answer all of your questions, especially if you look over Shelgon's stat distribution, but no, you go on.
Lugia said:
Salamence has one more weakness but one more resistance, making it pretty much a tie in typing.
Click to expand...
You mean Immunity. To one of the most common attacking types in the game. And an ability that reduces damage from attacks of that one additional weakness.


What is your point in making this thread and where is your evidence supporting it, because right now this just looks like a pile of "stating the obvious" by way of telling me the things Salamence and Shelgon have. You don't even provide proposed movesets for Shelgon.
 
Did I just hear someone saying Shelgon should be BL, of all tiers? Kinglerdude, Choice Specs Draco Meteor off of 240 Special Attack would never break UU in a thousand years. Plus Altaria exists.

This is ignoring the fact that Shelgon is not that much different than Mence. Much worse =/= unique enough for tiering.
 
I'm not saying it should be a BL threat, it would probably be like the farfetch'd of BL. However if you ask me I think he is just too powerful for UU but I guess when the whole move everything down and back up uu movement happens shelgon will be uu once nfes are tiered.

I still don't like trying to figure out this tiering with nfe's just because you have to account for everything. To be honest I would rather just forget about this tiering system thing for nfes and keep the nfe tier.

I am pretty stupid though and yeah Shelgon is not BL at all but at the same time I think he could have potential and even too much in UU with wish, draco meteor, fire blast, hydro pump, among other things.
 
Altaria is better than Shelgon at everything you said as a reason he's too powerful for UU. And if the "consensus" here is that something as awesome as Drapion is UU, I highly doubt that Shelgon wouldn't be. Regaldless, he's an NFE.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top