Self-Targetting Moves

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Stratos

Banned deucer.
This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.​

birkal said:
There's been a lot of talk on this on IRC, but we really need to talk about self targeting. The big one is Telekinesis (Self) that is being used to great extent competitively. It would probably be wise to have a conversation about these moves. Should we just ban some selectively? Should self target be banned entirely? What do we want to do with these moves as a community?
Click to expand...

Discuss, please don't go around in circles!

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honestly this discussion strikes me as another split between those who want ASB to be anime-style and those who want it to be battling. I don't particularly see why telekinesis (self) should be disallowed, since it makes flavor sense. However, the existence of various flavor commands such as this arguably reduce the skill factor of the game, since they are basically impossible to sub against. Are flavor elements a natural part of the game and we shouldn't bother trying to balance them w.r.t. subs? Should we create a whitelist of flavor commands that we can update at will and also update the sub classes at will to accomodate these (because levitate command, magnet rise, and telekinesis could be classed together)? Should we simply ban self-targeting moves because they're not worth the effort?
 
I like the idea of creating a new sub class. I came up with it a while ago, and a few people liked it while no one disliked it after I fleshed it out a little bit more.

Basically, it would be that Levitate (the Ability and the Command), Magnet Rise and Telekineses would all give the user a new condition that we would call something like Hovering or Levitating.
 
I prefer the idea that we could make a new sub class of effectiveness - essentially, one could sub for IF [move] would [not affect/be resisted by/do normal damage to/be super-effective against] [target] THEN [do this]. This would only be for your attacks, so you can't sub for things like "If SE move is used on you, then Metal Burst".
This would be useful against Protean and Reflect Type in addition to Levitating moves, and would count as a move sub.
 
Please take all substitution-related proposals to the substitutions overhaul thread. This is the thread for self-targeting moves, not for creating a substitution class.

The next user to post something in this thread related to classing telekinesis into a substitution class will end up being hammered. Get back onto the topic of self-targeting moves.

That is all.
 
I honestly think that self-targeting moves should be allowed, assuming the move makes sense (so no tackling yourself, for example). Telekinesis(self) wouldn't cause any problems with substitutions since we could follow through with either prior idea to resolve Telekinesis(self), and potentially do the same for any other similar moves we encounter, so it isn't breaking anything. I won't elaborate farther, though, because I don't want IAR to hammer me.

There is also some other uses for those moves. A pokemon with an ability to absorb a move and get a boost (Justified, Volt Absorb, etc.) can use such a move against itself to get benefits. That could be done with, say, a Lucario using Bite on itself, to get +1 attack, or a Vaporeon using Water Gun on itself for HP recovery. A pokemon could damage itself to get more damage out of Endeavor/Reversal/Flail. A pokemon with Toxic Heal/Guts/Quick Feet/etc. can use a move to status itself. I say that self-targeting moves are useful enough to be worth the effort implementing them.
 
I have looked through various ability descriptions and many already include phrases such as the ones that follow:
  • "Self-targeted attacks do not maintain boosts" (Storm Drain, Lightning Rod, Rattled)
  • "Self-targeted attacks do not give the boost" (Flash Fire, Justified, Motor Drive, Sap Sipper)
  • "by an opponent's Attack or Ability" (Defiant, Competitive)
  • "When a Pokemon with Poison Heal inflicts Poison on themselves with an attack, it uses up one of their Recovery Moves"
  • "A Pokemon that attacks itself with water to heal only recieves 25% of the damage that attack would do to itself"
  • "A Pokemon that attacks itself with electricity to heal only recieves 25% of the damage that attack would do to itself"
  • "Critical hits from self-targeting moves do not activate Anger Point."
Flare Boost, Marvel Scale, Toxic Boost, Guts, Tangled Feet, and Quick Feet have no such description but Status Ailments normally have a drawback even with these abilities so that in of itself may be enough to balance them.

A Zangoose could use toxic on itself to activate Toxic Boost for a 2 BAP increase to all physical attacks with no drawback (as immunity negates the damage). Ursaring can get a similar boost from Guts but instead of a poison immunity gets a boost from Quick Feet. Both have access to STAB facade to only escalate the matter. You could make arguments about toxic/flame orb providing similar effects, but those can only be used in battles where items are allowed and are a 20 CC investment while Toxic can be used in any battle. However nukes are something that have always had their place in ASB, and both have their downsides (Overall low stats on Zangoose, and having to experience the negative effects of the Status for Ursaring).

Are there any abilities I missed? Are the above five status dependent abilities fine as is? What moves other than Telekinesis have been problematic?


on a side note there is a minor typo in the descriptions of Water Absorb and Volt Absorb, receive has been spelled "recieve".
 
I really don't see any problems with the possibility of self activating those certain abilities. Toxic is by far the worst status to have on any of those mons in ASB and largely it is the only non item related way they have of self activation. Sure Dritfloon can Will-O-Wisp itself and as previously discussed Zangoose can Toxic but these are niche mons and causing no problems with the game. Not to mention there are various ways of removing Immunity from Zangoose, and the toxic counter still goes up as long as it is statused.

I've had a quick look and the majority of self targeting moves are already well dealt with. Ute already listed how almost every ability is dealing with it. Heal Pulse explicitly cannot be used on your self. The rest are a small list that mostly comes down to a flavour perspective. Such as:

Tangled Feet + Confusion. Spinda (Teeter Dance), Pigeot/Dodrio (Swagger) are potentially able to pull this off. Only Spinda can do it draw back free. However to me these moves seem to make little sense. This would require discussion.
Contrary + stat dropping move (ie Growl, Tail Whip). Once again only a few who can utilise it, and outside of maybe a few moves I haven't thought of they seem to make little flavour sense.

Something like a white list woudl definitely be useful in this situation. But I feel it would need to be monitored and updated since it is likely users will come up with more previously unthought of combinations at different times. Then again this whole system is very similar to the decision on if a combination between two moves is viable or not, which we still leave to the discretion of referees when combined with precedent. We could decide to keep on ruling self targeting as such.

Basically this discussion largely comes down to Telekinesis and so it should. Despite IAR's over moderating I believe that limited talk of substitutions as a solution most definitely belongs in this thread. As many users have said, creating a substitution class to more or less deal with Pokemon under some form of levitation (Levitate command, Magnet Rise, Telekinesis both by self and ally) is possibly the best way of balancing this phenomenon if we decide to make it continue. That is not to say talk of broader substitution clauses is relevant as Avnomke brought up. We woudl also need to deal with and codify the "keeping concentration" portion of self Telekinesis. Exactly what incoming and outgoing moves can break this? Is the user able to end the effect whenever it likes or must it last the duration? Don't forget this move is internally balanced by giving the opponent No-Guard against you and if the generally agreed upon sub clause is instituted will only really be of use ordering second when the relevant sub has not been made.

tl;dr
-Major statusing oneself is fine
-Make an evolving white list for other self targeted moves
-Keep Telekinesis (Self) but codify when and how it can be ended before the duration
-Make a sub class for levitating mons
 
Keeping concentration to me is basically the same as focusing on changing attacks, that is, can be broken by multi-hit moves and a few others. While I think it makes sense the user can return to the ground flavor-wise it seems that the duration should be fixed since this move also has the downside of making every attack against the telekinesis-ed (?) pokemon hit, so it's both a good and a bad thing and thus the user should be vulnerable to the downsides of the move.
 
I think that every conceivable use of self-targeting has another way around it or is generally dumb and/or misses the point of an ability. If you really must self-status, the orbs are things that would otherwise see zero use. Abilities can be activated by partners in doubles and generally act as deterrents from attacking with certain moves or statuses than an actual usable boost in singles, which is still a good defensive effect. Telekinesis is best handled by a Levitate command expansion imo. In general, I think that self-targeting is a surviving relic from the more Anime heavy era of the game that seems out of place in the modern game. They have a small niche, but those could easily be absorbed by other items, abilities, or strategies and would not be missed.

In short, I think there is no compelling reason to keep self-targeting.
 
But are there compelling reasons to remove self-targeting? Thus far they've been shown to be largely niche in battles with large movepools, yes, but aside from that, what other reasons to take them out entirely? I agree with deadfox that as far as I can follow, this conversation largely comes down to Telekinesis (Self), which stems from lack of codification. Simply codifying it would solve the problem, and should any similar problem arises, we can keep adding to the codification whitelist. Unless self-targetting (or any game mechanics, really) severely damages the overall game balance, I think there is no reason to remove it out of the game.
 
I don't know, they trip up new users, provide an option that is difficult to immediately see or entirely absent scanning a Pokemons move set without a whitelist, remove the utility of certain items, and are generally going to cause pointless flavor/balance disputes over a proposed whitelist. Without a whitelist, it leaves another element of "this strategy only works with the right ref." Ignoring that these are things we made up that GF specifically disallows and we have no compelling reason to keep. Removing them simplifies the game, hardly changes anything, encourages more complex or risky alternative strategies, and removes future work for a minor game element.

Far more compelling reasons IMO than those to launch a major and subjective process of forming a whitelist or keeping our currently subjective and thus difficult to sub for process. After all, how do you know that the opponent can't just invent a new self-targeting move that, if allowed by the ref, would destroy your actions?
 
In my last post I outlined how most abilities don't activate with Self Targeting, now I'm looking through the the DAT to see what moves might even be worthwhile if Self Targeted. I'm posting with no regards to Flavor.
  • Major Status Ailments if you have Guts, Quick Feet, Toxic Boost etc. - These have the drawback of making you suffer a Major Status Ailment, with the exception of Zangoose
  • Electrify - make your next move electric type
  • Encore might be allowed by some refs in order to bypass Consecutive Energy Cost. However it could already be illegal if you interpret encore as your previously used move
  • Entrainment/Gastro Acid/Worry Seed - disable your own abilities, maybe in some situations it could some in handy but most abilities with a negative effect are Toggle or Trait anyway
  • Flatter/Swagger - it's a boosting move at the cost of confusion, probably not worth it given that regular boosting moves already exist
  • Forest Curse/Trick-or-Treat - These are worth a look, or would be if anything other Smeargle could actually benefit from them Self Targeted
  • Mean Look/Block/Spiderweb - if you don't want to switch but don't have ingrain
  • Present - It's a gamble but technically doesn't count as a recovery move
  • Simple Beam - this warrants discussion I believe, given how powerful Simple can be
  • Soak - only Smeargle and Necturna could benefit from it self targeted
  • Sticky Web - Make you Trick Room users even slower, or give a speed boost to any Contrary mons
  • Telekinesis - need I say more
  • Topsy Turvy - Kind of pointless Self Targeting on Inkay/Malamar, but Smeargle may be able to put it to use
  • Toxic Spikes - another way of poisoning status reliant mons
  • Whirlwind/Roar - an Alternative to Teleport I suppose
  • Damaging Moves - you could use them to activate pinch abilities or increase the power of Flail, Reversal, Pain Split etc. not worth it in my opinion
  • Stat Lowering moves - only useful if you have Contrary or Topsy Turvy

I believe that out of these moves only Simple Beam, Soak, Trick-or-Treat, Forest Curse, and Telekinesis could be problematic if Self Targeted. Even then, only Smeargle/Necturna can benefit from some of these moves.
 
Ute On your list, I think that Flatter/Swagger, Mean Look/Block/Spider Web, and Whirlwind/Roar would not make sense for self-targeting, due to how they work.

Also, stat-lowering moves could be self-targeting on rare occasion for benefit without Contrary or Topsy Turvy. If you are confused/your foe is using foul play, lowering your attack would reduce damage taken.
 
Oops, I missed that. My point still stands that, unless we change which moves can/can't be self-targeted, those ones would not work and can be ignored.
 
Encore & Electrify wouldn't work since your last successful action would be Encore on the first (like using it against a pokemon with Magic Coat) and the second only works for the actions it's used. I would allow self-Toxic Spikes (and self-Spikes & SR even though I doubt they will ever be used), Status I don't like too much but I would allow if most people agree to it (while ref discretion might come to play in here I think if most people agree with something being allowed then it's easy to let it go.

With respect to the argument about it simplifying the game, I don't think removing a legitimate strategy is something that will benefit the game. It just limits it and reduces diversity without a bigger reason that "it's not allowed in-game" which we defy on many other mechanics as it is.
 
00:23 Texas here's what i'm thinking
00:23 Texas about self-targetting
00:23 Texas damaging moves=no self target
00:23 Texas status moves=yes self target

Covers the general things you'll want to be self targetting like telekinesis or toxic, omits the stupid things like actually attacking yourself which I will not endorse
 
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Yeah I support a ban on being able to target yourself with a damaging move. My main reason for this—besides the fact that I dislike the practice in general—being:

[15:27:07] <&@Its_A_Random> allowing damaging moves to self-target like assurance just results in a "Heads, I win. Tails, you lose." situation for the user ordering first against WP Swoobat
[15:29:40] <&@Its_A_Random> then again, a roundabout solution to that would be to nerf WP, but outside of swoobat & other simple mons
[15:29:47] <&@Its_A_Random> WP is not exactly broken

Yes. I am being serious. I am using Swoobat for a reason for a blanket ban on using a damaging move on yourself. Weakness Policy is a powerful item on it, & allowing such moves to self-target just exacerbates its strength by either forcing the opponent to use SE moves, but make its Stored Power stronger faster, or spam neutral attacks, but still let it get its strong Stored Power one action sooner than the classic Calm Mind ×3.

Also I still hate self telekinesis from a competitive standpoint, & the fact that very few mons that get telekinesis get magnet rise/levitate command. And also because of the blatantly obvious "Well what else would you expect from the Ground-type Gym Leader who wants to spam Earthquake & Dig more???" I still think it has no place in ASB, but I think I am just fighting a losing battle anyway on that regard...
 
I think a blanket ban on self targeting is too harsh a solution. As we have been discussing in this thread the majority of the abilities which can be activated through self damaging have specific clauses in them to deal with this and either prevent it from working entirely or severely limit the effectiveness.

Would not a "this item cannot be activated by self targeted attacks" clause in Weakness Policy itself be a much more elegant solution to the problem?
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
00:23 Texas here's what i'm thinking
00:23 Texas about self-targetting
00:23 Texas damaging moves=no self target
00:23 Texas status moves=yes self target

Covers the general things you'll want to be self targetting like telekinesis or toxic, omits the stupid things like actually attacking yourself which I will not endorse
Click to expand...

So self Heal Pulse is ok? Self Simple Beam is ok? How do we discriminate among status move?

For the record, I'm all for a blanket ban on self targetting moves and I've always been since the beginning of ASB, but if there's no support for it, any limitation to their use is welcome in my book.
 
Perhaps make any ability/item/move/etc. that causes a positive effect upon being hit with a specific category of move (i.e. Weak Armor, Weakness Policy, Justified, etc.) have no effect (not even absorbing the move if it normally would) if the user self-targeted and could target a foe instead (other than a stat-lowering move against Contrary). That way, Weakness Policy Swoobat isn't OP.

And the ground-type gym leader should be prepared for Magnet Rise, Telekenises(self), etc. You could try using Smack Down, for example. Quite a few ground-types get that (although it is mostly rock-types).
 
Weakness Policy nerf is feasible, but it is another topic for another day. Also I feel like it is just an attempt to sweep the issue under the rug. We could say the same thing about Endeavour/Helping Hand with their CT's alongside a few other things, but honestly in this case, I cannot see why we need so many clauses for the sake of keeping self-targeting attacks in a "balanced state" anyway. It is like saying "Oh self-targeting attacks are fine! Just add clauses to Anger Point, Defiant, Weakness Policy, Sap Sipper, Justified, Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, Heal Pulse, & a few other things. After that, they are fine." It is needlessly complicating the game state, & what is worse is that nine times out of ten, you cannot see them coming! Even if a blanket ban is not implemented, a white-list for self-targeting moves is more than appropriate. The only issue is deciding which moves to add...

Mulan, saying that I should prepare for it is a flawed argument, as well as a pathetic attempt to sweep the issue under the rug. Any move can be dealt with through sheer preparation, & if you are ordering first, you more or less can only prepare for so much. Furthermore, not every Ground-type gets Smack Down, Gravity, or any other of those levitate hate moves. Self Telekinesis is an un-codified piece of shit that merely exists because someone was so desperate to avoid EQ spam. Heck, it was never heard of until one of my Gym Matches if I recall correctly, & it was a game changer as well. It never got Deck approval as far as I remember, merely some ref that thought it made sense. I still think it has no place in ASB.

I guess I will stop "spewing crap out" for now.
 
zarator, Heal Pulse specifically disallows self-targetting in its description

Okay I'm going try another tack and draft up a whitelist/blacklist for self-targetting moves

White list: All self targetting status attacks, Aromatic Mist, Confuse Ray, Cotton Spore, Dark Void, Eerie Impulse, Electrify, Featherdance, Foresight, Forest's Curse, Gastro Acid, Grasswhistle, Kinesis, Lock-On, Mind Reader, Poison Gas (will not poison user as per description), Poisonpowder, Powder, Sand-Attack, Simple Beam, Skill Swap, Sleep Powder, Smokescreen, Soak, Spider Web, Spore, Stun Spore, Sweet Scent, Telekinesis, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Trick-Or-Treat, Venom Drench, Will-O-Wisp, Worry Seed.

Some of these seem weird but have flavour justification as a physical manifestation as opposed to a body action, for instance. Some psychic manipulation attacks also have flavour justification.


Black List: All Damaging Attacks, All Field targetting status attacks, After You, Ally Switch, Attract, Baby-Doll-Eyes, Bestow, Block, Captivate, Charm, Confide, Disable, Encore, Entrainment, Fake Tears, Flash (given the nature of the move illuminating everything I can't see it affecting only its user it the user is unaffected when used on an opp), Flatter, Glare, Growl, Guard Split, Guard Swap, Heal Block, Healing Wish, Heart Swap, Helping Hand, Hypnosis, Imprison, Leech Seed, Leer, Lovely Kiss, Me First, Mean Look, Memento, Metal Sound, Mimic, Miracle Eye, Mirror Move, Nightmare, Noble Roar, Odor Sleuth, Pain Split, Parting Shot, Play Nice, Power Split, Power Swap, Psych Up, Psycho Shift, Quash, Reflect Type, Roar, Role Play, Scary Face, Screech, Sing, Sketch, Spikes, Spite, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web, Supersonic, Swagger, Sweet Kiss, Switcheroo, Tail Whip, Taunt, Teeter Dance, Tickle, Topsy-Turvy, Torment, Toxic Spikes, Trick, Whirlwind, Yawn.

I disallowed sound based moves b/c imo the reason they work on the opp for stat drops and stuff is because the opp doesn't expect it so when you know its coming it doesn't have the same effect.

Discuss flavour/balance issues
 
Were any of those items put on the black list for balance issues?

I think all entry hazards should be put on the white list, and poison gas not poisoning the user since it would poison just like Toxic, only the poison is normal, not bad. I also think that moves that would have much of an effect when self-targeted (i.e. Helping Hand, Reflect Type, Attract) should not be put on this list simply because of that aspect. My justification for attract being on that list is that Attract only works on targets of the opposite gender as the user, which the user is never.

I also don't see why a field-targeting status move should not be allowed to be self-targeted. The only ones that work like that are entry hazards, heal block, and imprison. Heal Block is only useful if the opponent tries to measure out a KO instead of using a KO sub when ordering first, Imprison has no use, and entry hazards can be foreseen and removed by the opponent, and they have barely any effect.
 
Can you seriously stop posting in these kinds of threads. You don't put in any effort to research what you're talking about before you start typing and that doesn't help anyone. If you had taken even 30 seconds to look at the NDA you'd have realized that field targetting moves includes things like Sunny Day, Aromatherapy, Crafty Shield; basically every move makes zero sense to be self-targetting.

Imprison is self-targetting, which you'd also know if you looked at the NDA, and is not relevant here.

Heal Block is a field target with no practical use for limiting yourself, there is never a reasonable situation where you want to restrict your own healing but not also your opponents.

RE: (i.e. Helping Hand, Reflect Type, Attract) these moves were blacklisted precisely because they have no material use if self-targetted and thus should never be allowed as a competitive option.

RE: Poison Gas, the moves description specifically states that it cannot poison the user of the moves. Once again, two seconds of research (which I even provided verbatim) would have revealed this.

RE: Entry Hazards, I'm willing to entertain discussion on these, though I personally believe you shouldn't be able to set them on your own side of the field.


I appreciate you want to help with the policy aspect of the game but the fact of the matter is that you need to apply a LOT more critical thinking to your posts before you reasonably can expect to do so. Posting the first thing that comes to your mind, while potentially useful, is NOT effective policy making. These threads are meant to be logically thought out with respect to game balance (something that being as new as you are you cannot expect to be well versed in) and not determined by knee-jerk reactions.

Essentially what you need to do is to lurk more, something rarely applied to ASB, but appropriate here. Stop posting on policy topics for a while and observe how other respected policy makers act, in what they propose and the critical thinking they utilise when creating proposals. Once you have a better understanding of how ASB and the policy creation system works we'll be glad to have your input.


edit: oh yeah RE the black list, no, I did not consider balance with the black list, solely flavour viability.
 
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