it's one of Rands's few defoggers. We won't remove it (because we really, really need all the removal we can get; this is not negotiable), nor will we make it sitrus unburden, because defog and sitrus unburden don't synergize at all.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
The moderators of this forum are A Cake Wearing A Hat, Irpachuza, sharpclaw, Amaranth, and Dark Pulse.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
understandable, but if that's the case shouldn't defog be forced on it? I've gotten stabs/willo/strength sap a few times.
e: for the record I disagree about sitrus unburden and defog not synergizing; the speed boost lets you get a defog off in situations where you normally wouldn't be able to , for example if you're facing a ~200 speed boosted attacker with rocks+webs on your side. (Source: Drifloon does this in LC)
e: for the record I disagree about sitrus unburden and defog not synergizing; the speed boost lets you get a defog off in situations where you normally wouldn't be able to , for example if you're facing a ~200 speed boosted attacker with rocks+webs on your side. (Source: Drifloon does this in LC)
-we avoid Pokemon-specific coding (e.g. forcing Defog on Drifblim and only Drifblim) whenever possible; wisp sap Drifblim isn't bad enough to warrant that; it's capable of spreading status just fine.
-Forcing Defog on all things that get Defog is a poor idea for different reasons; many Pokemon, even Pokemon in the Fast Support role, don't always want Defog for set variety purposes. For example, forcing Defog on Talonflame would completely prevent Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and U-turn from generating unless the team already has a Defogger, and forcing Defog would also more or less delete Specs Hisuian Braviary, and forcing Defog would more or less delete Assault Vest Decidueye.
In other words, no. Willo Sap Drifblim's staying.
We need defoggers. Just look back in this thread and youll see people requesting more defog. To that end, Drifblim is also just a hard counter to a surprising number of pokemon (basically any normal or poison type that relies on ground and fighting as coverage) so it comes in often in those matchups. Boots+defog help tremendously in those cases, and will o wisp+strength sap is pretty much just a drifblim thing, so we would ideally like to keep it for the unique qualities driffy brings.
Also not for nothing, but bulky setup drifblim isnt exactly perfect either. Its relatively weak even after a +1 (no LO to boost, low bp attacks, low base spA) and gets pounded by a lot of common priority moves. I think both sets are perfectly fine, but maybe other folks have different opinions than me.
If we're so desperate for Defog users that we're keeping a largely unviable set that isn't even guaranteed Defog, then maybe the solution is to look at the prevalence of hazards in other sets. Far too many matchups are completely unwinnable because one player gets webs/spikes/tspikes and the other player doesn't get removal, webs immunes, boots users, or even taunt... I can't think of a more obnoxious feeling than getting Delibird and it not even having spin. This is an extremely obvious problem that many, many other people have made clear. Can we see some reorientation?
Not unless you want even more teams with 3+ choice items than there already are, because in many cases that's the alternative.
We will not remove hazards from Pokemon for which hazards are among their best sets, period. This follows our development principles, one of which being that Pokemon will have their best sets, another one being that Pokemon will have a variety of sets when feasible. As you can see from our other resident cake, Fast Support Drifblim is not considered bad by the Random Battles staff and therefore qualifies as a feasible level of variety.
We will already be adding two more hazard removers and making Rapid Spin Iron Treads more common this week in response to community feedback.
Further posts angrily demanding fewer hazards or more removal will be deleted due to being thoroughly unproductive. This has been discussed and played out ad nauseum and there's no longer any point to it until Home or DLC1 change the move distribution.
Last edited:
There are a lot of mediocre Defog sets that currently exist but Drifblim is not one of them but anyway...
I would love to hear an actual proper solution instead of "remove or reduce hazards" or "increase removal". The latter not being as feasible because it requires removal of other sets or moves to make room for removal most of the time. Also forcing removal on a Pokemon would make it less flexible and remove sets from it.
This is a wide issue though so it is best to start small. Give small changes that can make for an overall improvement. For example, we are removing Stone Edge from Iron Treads to increase removal. This is feasible because Stone Edge is mediocre on it and makes it get Scarf. If we can get suggestions like this with good reasoning then we can consider it.
I would love to hear an actual proper solution instead of "remove or reduce hazards" or "increase removal". The latter not being as feasible because it requires removal of other sets or moves to make room for removal most of the time. Also forcing removal on a Pokemon would make it less flexible and remove sets from it.
This is a wide issue though so it is best to start small. Give small changes that can make for an overall improvement. For example, we are removing Stone Edge from Iron Treads to increase removal. This is feasible because Stone Edge is mediocre on it and makes it get Scarf. If we can get suggestions like this with good reasoning then we can consider it.
FWIW making hazards less common doesn't reduce the power level of hazards anyway. Hazard control is actual counterplay that reduces the power of hazards, but hazards being on fewer Pokémon doesn't. Population Bomb isn't kept under control by only being on one mon, it just means you're even more unlucky to get stomped by it. That isn't really better.
Similarly to blade's post above, if you have suggestions for good additions to hazard users which stand on their own merit but make hazards less common as a by-product, we'd certainly carefully consider them. Something like our recent modification to Klawf, where we gave it a second set that is always SD Anger Shell because Regen and Anger Shell kept genning on sets they were p bad on, is an example of this as it cut Stealth Rock rates on Klawf a little bit, while actually making Klawf better in the process. This seems contradictory but I'm down for some more variety on mons. Many hazard setters with only one role rn could probably have a second without hazards at a similar power level to its current set, and that immediately cuts hazards rates. But "give this mon a second set to cut hazards even though its second set is worse" isn't something we do.
I wanna say pre-emptively that I see merit to both sides here. Hazards are strong because of shoddy gamefreak move distribution, but nerfing mons arbitrarily by not letting them use hazards if it’s their best option, or rigidly forcing any mon that can be a hazard removalist into the role is for sure also undesirable.
Maybe a realistic solution could be increasing distribution of Heavy-Duty Boots? It’s already the best item on basically any mon that doesn’t resist SR in standard play anyway. For example, right now Meowscarada can only have Life Orb or Choice Band, when HDB is a known strong item on it.
Are there any widely applicable rules you can think of to satisfactorily expand HDB distribution? Rands is still a format that follows general rules for setgen, and especially for a common item like HDB this is very important as it (for example) allows us to enforce HDB on Pokémon with a hazard removal move, but not enforce it on them if they don't have that move. Therefore, if we were to expand the distribution of HDB, it would pretty much always have to be done in batches for a bunch of Pokémon with a shared characteristic.
Personally I think, in a rands context, LO and Band are both better on Meowscarada than HDB would be. Meowscarada would be taking a huge dip in power just to not take chip, when really Meowscarada plays more as a late-game ace if you can hide it for that long, or a revenge killer if you get a largely slow team. Thanks to its speed tier, Meowscarada is honestly a little underpowered in rands thanks to its speed tier making it a low level (because of low ladder gameplay benefitting mons like this), so I think the power dip would be very noticeable during higher level play.
But if you come up with a rule we can see who it effects and figure whether it's good to have as an option on those mons or not; I also look down on HDB much more than some other rands auth as an option in rands so don't take my opinion as necessarily authoritative.
That's actually a strong suggestion, and one that's reasonable if we're okay with the loss of power. Currently, 1/3 of Meowscaradas get Life Orb U-turn. If we change its role from Fast Attacker to Fast Support, it'll get Boots in that situation instead, while still giving Life Orb to the 3 attacks Tspikes set and Band to the 4 atks set. I'll run that by the staff, but please, consider the above post too. We've been looking for more general rules for Boots distribution for ages because of the removal-issue this gen; we just haven't had any ideas that stuck.
Last edited:
Would it be possible to generate Heavy-Duty Boots for Pokémon with non-STAB pivot moves perhaps. The reason I say non-STAB is because something like Ampharos def wants the choice specs to hit hard with its pivot move, whereas an, idk, Decidueye-Hisui wants to use U-Turn to pivot in and out of disadvantageous matchups, which boots would actually enable it to do. This would also do stuff like guarantee boots on Chilly Reception Slowking for example (and also Meowscarada if you ignore Protean).
Again, not entirely sure if this is a good idea or even possible, but it’s the best I have been able to come up with.
Again, not entirely sure if this is a good idea or even possible, but it’s the best I have been able to come up with.
We've actually already got something like that in place for the Fast Support role, which is why changing Meowscarada to that would give it Boots. On discussion, we're planning on giving the following Pokemon Fast Support and therefore potential for Boots, when they wouldn't have gotten it otherwise:
Meowscarada, Sandy Shocks, Lumineon, Grafaiai, and Brambleghast
For why we aren't expanding that to other roles, there isn't much of a point; the vast majority of Pokemon that get u-turn/volt switch either get said move with a Choice item/AV or are already Fast Support or Rock-weak. The complete list of exceptions are:
Persian, Slither Wing, Hisuian Electrode, and Greninja (which want life orb for the power), Lokix (which used to be boots but got changed to Silverpowder because it was actively SO weak), Regieleki (has had Magnet hardcoded since its introduction), Pawmot (which i'm not entirely sure it even wants volt), Forretress, Mew, and Scizor (which don't get recovery but really want it and therefore have Leftovers), the Lake Spirits and Rotoms (which actively don't want boots), Hisuian Decidueye, Iron Treads, Magearna, and Perrserker (meh?), Bellibolt (being discussed, currently) and the Pokemon above
Last edited:
I know it's a fool's errand to try to make Luvdisc remotely usable, but it doesn't seem like this set has the tools to do what it wants to do (Tera Dragon doesn't seem to accomplish anything in my experience). So if I could make a suggestion:
All or Nothing
Luvdisc @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 85 HP / 85 Atk / 85 Def / 85 SpA / 85 SpD / 85 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Tera Blast
- Draining Kiss
Speed is already Luvdisc's best stat, so I opted to boost its SpA with Specs instead (if you're lucky enough to have a rain setter, it's just as well). Hydro Pump and Blizzard are its best moves, and Tera Blast is the only other strong move it gets that doesn't feel redundant. Of its remaining moves that are compatible with Specs, I figured Draining Kiss would be the best option in a desperado to get your HP back, which can be boosted by Tera Fairy. Yes, Fairy Tera Blast and Draining Kiss gives you two Fairy-type moves, but this Pokemon really doesn't give you much to work with.
We only put Tera Blast on the things that really want it, because every Tera Blast user we add lowers the chances to get every other Tera Blast user. You wouldn't, for example, want Tera Blast Luvdisc with non-Tera Blast Frosmoth, right? That's why Ampharos isn't Tera Blast ice in rands, for example.View attachment 514281
I know it's a fool's errand to try to make Luvdisc remotely usable, but it doesn't seem like this set has the tools to do what it wants to do (Tera Dragon doesn't seem to accomplish anything in my experience). So if I could make a suggestion:
All or Nothing
Luvdisc @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 85 HP / 85 Atk / 85 Def / 85 SpA / 85 SpD / 85 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Tera Blast
- Draining Kiss
Speed is already Luvdisc's best stat, so I opted to boost its SpA with Specs instead (if you're lucky enough to have a rain setter, it's just as well). Hydro Pump and Blizzard are its best moves, and Tera Blast is the only other strong move it gets that doesn't feel redundant. Of its remaining moves that are compatible with Specs, I figured Draining Kiss would be the best option in a desperado to get your HP back, which can be boosted by Tera Fairy. Yes, Fairy Tera Blast and Draining Kiss gives you two Fairy-type moves, but this Pokemon really doesn't give you much to work with.
Trust me, we're doing the best we can with Luvdisc. Wishtect is honestly the best it can do right now and we've *searched*.
To put a little cap on all the discussion about hazard control, i'd like to state the following changes that will occur over the next day or two:
-Meowscarada, Brambleghast, Slowking, Galarian Slowking, Sandy Shocks, Grafaiai, Lumineon, and Glimmora will now sometimes get Heavy-Duty Boots.
-Defog Giratina and Rapid Spin Hisuian Avalugg will exist.
-Rapid Spin Iron Treads will be more common.
-Stealth Rock Kingambit will be removed.
-Clodsire will get Stealth Rock instead of Spikes.
I hope this step towards better hazard control in the format helps ease some of y'all's worries. We will continue to look for further methods to reasonably improve the distribution of hazard control measures given our code limitations and principles, just as we've been slowly trying to reduce Choice item distribution in the format.
Thank you to those who have worked with us amicably.
-Meowscarada, Brambleghast, Slowking, Galarian Slowking, Sandy Shocks, Grafaiai, Lumineon, and Glimmora will now sometimes get Heavy-Duty Boots.
-Defog Giratina and Rapid Spin Hisuian Avalugg will exist.
-Rapid Spin Iron Treads will be more common.
-Stealth Rock Kingambit will be removed.
-Clodsire will get Stealth Rock instead of Spikes.
I hope this step towards better hazard control in the format helps ease some of y'all's worries. We will continue to look for further methods to reasonably improve the distribution of hazard control measures given our code limitations and principles, just as we've been slowly trying to reduce Choice item distribution in the format.
Thank you to those who have worked with us amicably.
Last edited:
Have you tried Icy Wind on Luvdisc? In the same vein that having T-Wave on Klefki is always nice to stop something in its tracks, Icy Wind could kinda sorta do similar since Luvdisc's only quality is outspeeding most of the meta...
I can't say I've ever been really happy about Ice Beam on Luvdisc, tbh. I'm happier when I get Charm usually. (same reason as above, imo desperation charm > 30% damage on a super effective target)
On an unrelated note is there any way to view winrates based on set/role? I'd love to see the difference between CM/roost/storedpower espathra vs specs. I'm always happy to get the stored power version and I feel like it can so easily run away with a game no matter the matchup, while specs feels mid at best... could just be bias... but idk.
I can't say I've ever been really happy about Ice Beam on Luvdisc, tbh. I'm happier when I get Charm usually. (same reason as above, imo desperation charm > 30% damage on a super effective target)
On an unrelated note is there any way to view winrates based on set/role? I'd love to see the difference between CM/roost/storedpower espathra vs specs. I'm always happy to get the stored power version and I feel like it can so easily run away with a game no matter the matchup, while specs feels mid at best... could just be bias... but idk.
Icy Wind was suggested (by me!) quite a while ago but ultimately didn't make it. I still like the idea myself, but the opinions of others probably haven't changed since the last time it was discussed.
Unfortunately there isn't a way to view winrates by role. We'd love for it to be able to happen but there are several roadblocks (one of which being it would use up more of and therefore slow down the server) so it probably won't happen soon. Personally I prefer Specs Espathra fwiw. There are way too many matchups where Espathra does not get a reasonable window of opportunity because all opposing mons either 2HKO it and don't get KOed by Stored Power after 1 turn of setup, or are bulky enough to require more turns of setup to beat and beat Espathra in that time anyway. Espathra is also just mid in rands at this point though, it's the curse of level balancing sometimes.
This isn't really the right thread for this, for next time try the "simple questions/simple answers" thread. For now: Toedscruel's ability makes it move last when using a status move
what is the reasoning for the chance of tera dragon on specs dragapult? ghost stab is way more spammable and doesnt have the drawback of dropping the special attack. draco is usually only used on pult for revenging a single mon, whereas tera ghost shadow ball can really shred holes in teams. I feel like this is far more valuable on this type of mon, can the chance of dragon tera be removed or decreased on specs pult?
sure but now that you mention it i kinda wanna add tera fire
is there any reason why slowbro galar gets sludge bomb over shell side arm some times? i find shell side arm to be better when it can hit special walls way better and i don't think having a 10% less chance to poison isn't that bad of a trade off
the set that has a chance to roll choice specs (Wallbreaker) gets Sludge Bomb; Choice Specs isn't taken into account for SSA calculations, so Sludge Bomb is better than sidearm when Choice Specs is a possibility.
Question! Scyther really loves eviolite when it can't be punished by SR. Is there any way to force (or at least allow) Eviolite on lead Scyther only?
Such a good suggestion that it's already been in place, actually
Evio scyther currently happens on lead sets without uturn, as visible on line 1104 of random-teams.ts:
Code:
if (species.id === 'scyther') return (isLead && !moves.has('uturn')) ? 'Eviolite' : 'Heavy-Duty Boots';