Metagame Scarlet and Violet CAP Metagame Discussion

shnowshner · Apr 25, 2023

This was part of a different post but I started typing too much so I'm moving it here. A bit rambly and I'm far from an outstanding player so take this with a grain of salt, perhaps two.

SV CAP right now is in a bit of an unfortunate state where it seems a lot of the strongest or active players are just building cheesey/MU fish teams, because power creep is immense this gen and we're missing a ton of staple balance/anti-offense options at the moment, along with it still being fairly early generation so there's a good amount of Pokemon/Mechanics that may not be exactly balanced for an OU-level metagame (Tera, Volcarona, Valiant, to name a few). You have this fast-paced metagame full of speedy sweepers and breakers that already makes finding a consistent team difficult, and then factor in that balance teams have some pretty dire hurdles to overcome, and for a lot of people it seems like it's just easier to design teams that try to win as quickly as possible while throwing the opponent's strategy off balance as frequently as possible. Prime example is the team D2 shared in Winter Seasonal finals (https://pokepast.es/ec0450be5c939622), which he even calls an afront to competitive Pokemon. It's got cool techs on the team, like Encore Dragonite to help facilitate a sweep, or the Taunt + Destiny Bond Booster Energy Iron Valiant as either a cleaner or emergency stop to opposing setup, but part of the reason these even exist is because of how chaotic the metagame has been, and that emphasis on getting your sweepers into a winning position while preventing your opponent from doing the same.

The OU Shed Tail ban hopefully remedies this issue a little bit, and we are bound for a new CAP soon that has promise to be a real pain for Offense, but nothing is for certain at this time (especially as 32 could end up being a great addition to Offense as well). I don't want to come off as advocating us to find ways to "fix the meta" as I do feel a large portion of the issues right now stem from OU stuff that is subject to change on their own whims or quite literally whenever Game Freak decides to drop new content on us, but I do feel like it's demotivated a lot of people (myself included).

Wondering if anyone else is feeling this sort of burnout/disinterest I'm trying to convey right now and where exactly it might be coming from.

Later today (read: more than 12 hours later probably) I will get seasonal stats up for whatever they might be worth considering how much things have changed since January.

SHSP · Apr 25, 2023

shnowshner said:
Wondering if anyone else is feeling this sort of burnout/disinterest I'm trying to convey right now and where exactly it might be coming from.

I certainly feel this way as well, the burnout bit especially. Came back from an extended break from playing the meta for CLT and though I've enjoyed the actual playing of a lot of games, building has not felt fun which is annoying. Shed Tail ban has certainly helped that (as has actually qualifying for bracket) but I'm not sold on it being a massive fix: HO is still gonna be consistent and solid, even with just hazard stack options and what not. I do think there's a lot of room we could be exploring, though- anyone who wants to build lmk i'd be down :]

nutritious blend · Apr 25, 2023

SHSP said:
I do think there's a lot of room we could be exploring, though- anyone who wants to build lmk i'd be down :]

I'm down! And I agree with the feelings that building feels significantly more pain than actually playing. I've been pretty pro-tera since release, less so these days. Especially in CAP. There seems to be lopsided value to an offensive vs a defensive tera. :venomicon:

and

teras can be challenging to break but they feel a lot easier to deal with than :iron valiant:

teras that just run away with the game and steamroll their checks.

Da Pizza Man · Apr 29, 2023

2023 CAP Winer Seasonals

Moves + Teammates | Combos

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Equilibra          |  124 |  33.16% |  52.42% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |  110 |  29.41% |  45.45% |
| 3    | Arghonaut          |  102 |  27.27% |  47.06% |
| 4    | Venomicon          |   99 |  26.47% |  47.47% |
| 5    | Jumbao             |   87 |  23.26% |  57.47% |
| 6    | Roaring Moon       |   75 |  20.05% |  56.00% |
| 7    | Garganacl          |   73 |  19.52% |  49.32% |
| 8    | Iron Valiant       |   71 |  18.98% |  45.07% |
| 9    | Dragapult          |   68 |  18.18% |  45.59% |
| 10   | Gholdengo          |   59 |  15.78% |  42.37% |
| 11   | Krilowatt          |   56 |  14.97% |  62.50% |
| 12   | Astrolotl          |   52 |  13.90% |  44.23% |
| 13   | Iron Moth          |   48 |  12.83% |  64.58% |
| 14   | Hatterene          |   47 |  12.57% |  53.19% |
| 15   | Kingambit          |   45 |  12.03% |  53.33% |
| 15   | Tomohawk           |   45 |  12.03% |  51.11% |
| 17   | Meowscarada        |   38 |  10.16% |  52.63% |
| 18   | Chien-Pao          |   37 |   9.89% |  48.65% |
| 19   | Skeledirge         |   34 |   9.09% |  52.94% |
| 19   | Dragonite          |   34 |   9.09% |  47.06% |
| 21   | Revenankh          |   33 |   8.82% |  45.45% |
| 22   | Orthworm           |   31 |   8.29% |  67.74% |
| 22   | Rotom-Wash         |   31 |   8.29% |  54.84% |
| 24   | Volcarona          |   30 |   8.02% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Cinderace          |   30 |   8.02% |  46.67% |
| 26   | Corviknight        |   28 |   7.49% |  53.57% |
| 27   | Pelipper           |   27 |   7.22% |  48.15% |
| 28   | Floatzel           |   26 |   6.95% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Ting-Lu            |   24 |   6.42% |  54.17% |
| 30   | Caribolt           |   23 |   6.15% |  43.48% |
| 31   | Toxapex            |   22 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Miasmaw            |   21 |   5.61% |  52.38% |
| 33   | Snaelstrom         |   20 |   5.35% |  45.00% |
| 33   | Iron Treads        |   20 |   5.35% |  40.00% |
| 35   | Stratagem          |   19 |   5.08% |  63.16% |
| 35   | Grimmsnarl         |   19 |   5.08% |  57.89% |
| 35   | Venomicon-Epilogue |   19 |   5.08% |  57.89% |
| 35   | Greninja           |   19 |   5.08% |  36.84% |
| 39   | Ceruledge          |   18 |   4.81% |  66.67% |
| 39   | Espathra           |   18 |   4.81% |  61.11% |
| 39   | Amoonguss          |   18 |   4.81% |  50.00% |
| 42   | Cawmodore          |   17 |   4.55% |  41.18% |
| 42   | Baxcalibur         |   17 |   4.55% |  41.18% |
| 44   | Walking Wake       |   16 |   4.28% |  56.25% |
| 45   | Zoroark-Hisui      |   15 |   4.01% |  53.33% |
| 46   | Crucibelle         |   14 |   3.74% |  50.00% |
| 46   | Garchomp           |   14 |   3.74% |  50.00% |
| 46   | Slowking           |   14 |   3.74% |  28.57% |
| 49   | Saharaja           |   13 |   3.48% |  53.85% |
| 49   | Smokomodo          |   13 |   3.48% |  46.15% |
| 49   | Fidgit             |   13 |   3.48% |  38.46% |
| 52   | Scizor             |   12 |   3.21% |  83.33% |
| 52   | Colossoil          |   12 |   3.21% |  58.33% |
| 52   | Syclant            |   12 |   3.21% |  41.67% |
| 52   | Iron Hands         |   12 |   3.21% |  33.33% |
| 56   | Mollux             |   11 |   2.94% |  45.45% |
| 56   | Plasmanta          |   11 |   2.94% |  36.36% |
| 58   | Glimmora           |   10 |   2.67% |  40.00% |
| 58   | Kerfluffle         |   10 |   2.67% |  20.00% |
| 60   | Armarouge          |    9 |   2.41% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Voodoom            |    9 |   2.41% |  44.44% |
| 60   | Pyroak             |    9 |   2.41% |  11.11% |
| 63   | Indeedee           |    8 |   2.14% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Azumarill          |    8 |   2.14% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Chromera           |    8 |   2.14% |  25.00% |
| 66   | Cyclohm            |    7 |   1.87% |  71.43% |
| 66   | Polteageist        |    7 |   1.87% |  71.43% |
| 66   | Pajantom           |    7 |   1.87% |  57.14% |
| 66   | Scream Tail        |    7 |   1.87% |  57.14% |
| 66   | Breloom            |    7 |   1.87% |  28.57% |
| 66   | Sandy Shocks       |    7 |   1.87% |  14.29% |
| 72   | Iron Jugulis       |    6 |   1.60% |  66.67% |
| 72   | Clodsire           |    6 |   1.60% |  50.00% |
| 72   | Gastrodon          |    6 |   1.60% |  33.33% |
| 72   | Pawmot             |    6 |   1.60% |  33.33% |
| 72   | Volkraken          |    6 |   1.60% |  16.67% |
| 77   | Quaquaval          |    5 |   1.34% |  60.00% |
| 77   | Pincurchin         |    5 |   1.34% |  60.00% |
| 77   | Hawlucha           |    5 |   1.34% |  40.00% |
| 77   | Masquerain         |    5 |   1.34% |  40.00% |
| 77   | Hydreigon          |    5 |   1.34% |  20.00% |
| 82   | Kitsunoh           |    4 |   1.07% |  50.00% |
| 82   | Iron Leaves        |    4 |   1.07% |  50.00% |
| 82   | Torkoal            |    4 |   1.07% |  25.00% |
| 82   | Dondozo            |    4 |   1.07% |  25.00% |
| 86   | Gallade            |    3 |   0.80% |  66.67% |
| 86   | Blissey            |    3 |   0.80% |  66.67% |
| 86   | Naviathan          |    3 |   0.80% |  33.33% |
| 86   | Malaconda          |    3 |   0.80% |   0.00% |
| 90   | Polteageist-Antique |    2 |   0.53% | 100.00% |
| 90   | Cloyster           |    2 |   0.53% | 100.00% |
| 90   | Aurumoth           |    2 |   0.53% | 100.00% |
| 90   | Kilowattrel        |    2 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 90   | Veluza             |    2 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 90   | Arboliva           |    2 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 90   | Bisharp            |    2 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 90   | Sylveon            |    2 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 90   | Scovillain         |    2 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 99   | Magnezone          |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Brambleghast       |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Hippowdon          |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Iron Thorns        |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Rabsca             |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Rotom-Heat         |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Avalugg            |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Necturna           |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Espeon             |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Justyke            |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Bombirdier         |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Salamence          |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Farigiraf          |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Maushold           |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |

quziel · May 30, 2023

Now that home is dropped, its time to make a meta announcement.
:walking wake:

The Council has decided to free ~~binacle pinnacle~~ Walking Wake from the banlist. While the mon still does hit like a truck, we felt that Walking Wake deserved another chance at CAP success, as the power level in the meta is undoubtedly increasing thanks to Pokemon Home dropping. New additions to the meta such as Slowking-Galar can potentially sponge its attacks, and additions such as Chien Pao and Sneasler make its speed tier a bit less valuable, which may reduce its power level enough to keep it balanced. This is also a matter of procedure, as the metagame council generally feels that keeping a Pokemon banned after a metagame shift of this magnitude is bad policy. We'll absolutely be keeping an eye on Wake, as well as the rest of the new additions to see if CAP-specific action needs to be taken, but get battling, and get hyped for the incoming Hemogoblin.

SHSP · Jun 4, 2023

So, CAPPL is about to start, OU's gone through a few bans, and Hemogoblin is out. It's been a hell of a week or two for the CAP metagame, and I'm curious to hear how folks are thinking about the current state of stuff. I'll give a few of my own thoughts as well:

:hemogoblin:

the latest addition has felt really enjoyable to play, even if I've only been running one BU set (and poorly). I definitely feel like it'll carve out a niche even post-Home, and I'm really curious what gets cooked up over the season with the lil guy.

:walking_wake:

Haven't ran into this too much, but I'm worried about it being back around again. Bao is just such a strong partner for it, but again I'm running off such a small sample size and not really running any new options that match up well into it. Definitely keeping my eyes on it.

:fidgit:

TR is back in force with Ursa around, and Fidgit here makes it rather terrifying to play against. Not sure what the TR builds look like minus Magearna, though.

Generally, I'm enjoying post-Home a ton more right now, but I feel like a part of that is enjoying all the new toys. There's a lot that stands out as too strong that hopefully gets shaken out in the next bit of time, but after that I have a lot of hope for this to be really, really enjoyable.

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020 · Jul 2, 2023

CAP usage stats of June and what they tell us about the metagame

By using this stats, here are some points:

Hemogoblin
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Venomicon
Arghonaut
Great Tusk
Fidgit
Jumbao
Cawmodore
Miasmaw

Hemogoblin
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Venomicon
Arghonaut
Fidgit
Jumbao
Cawmodore
Miasmaw
Stratagem
Syclant
Aurumoth
Krilowatt
Astrolotl
Malaconda
Venomicon-Epilogue
Kitsunoh
Tomohawk
Colossoil
Cyclohm
Smokomodo
Volkraken
Revenankh
Chromera
Kerfluffle
Pyroak
Saharaja
Naviathan
Pajantom
Crucibelle
Voodoom
Plasmanta
Mollux
Necturna

If we used the the 4.52% cutoff, these next CAPs would be UU by usage:

Mollux
Necturna

Total leads: 5644
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Snaelstrom | 8.22536% | 470 | 8.327% |
| 2 | Fidgit | 7.49921% | 381 | 6.751% |
| 3 | Aurumoth | 4.43696% | 216 | 3.827% |
| 4 | Hemogoblin | 3.57470% | 202 | 3.579% |
| 5 | Krilowatt | 2.90794% | 150 | 2.658% |
| 6 | Malaconda | 2.85552% | 144 | 2.551% |
| 7 | Jumbao | 2.65018% | 136 | 2.410% |
| 8 | Stratagem | 2.31784% | 152 | 2.693% |
| 9 | Venomicon | 2.25014% | 131 | 2.321% |
| 10 | Dragapult | 2.14569% | 97 | 1.719% |
| 11 | Samurott-Hisui | 2.13847% | 96 | 1.701% |
| 12 | Venomicon-Epilogue | 2.11148% | 111 | 1.967% |
| 13 | Chromera | 2.05613% | 112 | 1.984% |
| 14 | Crucibelle | 1.97045% | 121 | 2.144% |
| 15 | Syclant | 1.85794% | 103 | 1.825% |
| 16 | Astrolotl | 1.76574% | 119 | 2.108% |
| 17 | Equilibra | 1.70378% | 106 | 1.878% |
| 18 | Sneasler | 1.69769% | 72 | 1.276% |
| 19 | Great Tusk | 1.58751% | 67 | 1.187% |
| 20 | Rotom-Wash | 1.48062% | 72 | 1.276% |

weatherless...................79.46783%
offense.......................47.77409%
balance.......................26.08145%
sun...........................18.05504%
hyperoffense..................17.75345%
voltturn...................... 7.33048%
trickroom..................... 5.37066%
stall......................... 5.31256%
semistall..................... 3.07844%
monotype...................... 1.71241%
rain.......................... 1.28138%
sunoffense.................... 1.17860%
sand.......................... 0.97718%
choice........................ 0.79134%
tricksun...................... 0.64624%
sandstall..................... 0.47317%
monofire...................... 0.22953%
hail.......................... 0.21857%
monodragon.................... 0.17866%
monobug....................... 0.17831%
monograss..................... 0.17068%
monoice....................... 0.13943%
monofairy..................... 0.13147%
monofighting.................. 0.11535%
monoghost..................... 0.11156%
monoflying.................... 0.09351%
monowater..................... 0.08318%
monosteel..................... 0.07987%
monodark...................... 0.07498%
monoelectric.................. 0.07241%
monoground.................... 0.07220%
monopoison.................... 0.05623%
monopsychic................... 0.04632%
sunstall...................... 0.04265%
trickrain..................... 0.04135%
tricksand..................... 0.03440%
monorock...................... 0.03058%
rainoffense................... 0.02635%
sandoffense................... 0.02503%
gravity....................... 0.02498%
dragmag....................... 0.02465%
tailwind...................... 0.01958%
hailoffense................... 0.01486%

Stalliness (mean: -0.183)
-2.0|#
****|##
-1.5|########
****|#############
-1.0|#####################
****|###########################
-0.5|##############################
****|###########################
*0.0|#################
****|###################
+0.5|################
****|###########
+1.0|####
****|###
+1.5|#
****|##
+2.0|###
****|###
+2.5|
****|#
+3.0|
****|
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.48%

The most used CAP NFE is Flarelm :flarelm:

with the place number 111
The most used CAP LC is Justyke :justyke:

133

Waldinji · Jul 3, 2023

shnowshner said:
Wondering if anyone else is feeling this sort of burnout/disinterest I'm trying to convey right now and where exactly it might be coming from

I've not touched showdown at all for a while because of what you described in better detail and I call it "Match-Up Fishing" It felt that way since home came out. Part of why I didn't play at all. But with my very recent comeback , I'm hoping I can have a blast again , and even tho I know one month is Not nearly enough for a tier to stabilize , After the whole array of bans (again showing tera hasn't been playtested at all) , I've given a go back at it and ... Already have a few things to say about the new trends / Relevant Topics

Da Pizza Man · Jul 27, 2023

CAP32 Playtest :hemogoblin:

Moves + Teammates | Combos

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Hemogoblin         |   79 |  47.02% |  54.43% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |   62 |  36.90% |  62.90% |
| 3    | Equilibra          |   57 |  33.93% |  49.12% |
| 4    | Venomicon          |   56 |  33.33% |  51.79% |
| 5    | Dragapult          |   46 |  27.38% |  47.83% |
| 6    | Kingambit          |   28 |  16.67% |  53.57% |
| 7    | Walking Wake       |   26 |  15.48% |  80.77% |
| 7    | Krilowatt          |   26 |  15.48% |  57.69% |
| 9    | Arghonaut          |   25 |  14.88% |  36.00% |
| 10   | Jumbao             |   24 |  14.29% |  75.00% |
| 10   | Heatran            |   24 |  14.29% |  62.50% |
| 10   | Samurott-Hisui     |   24 |  14.29% |  41.67% |
| 13   | Iron Moth          |   23 |  13.69% |  47.83% |
| 13   | Slowking-Galar     |   23 |  13.69% |  43.48% |
| 15   | Gholdengo          |   21 |  12.50% |  52.38% |
| 15   | Garganacl          |   21 |  12.50% |  42.86% |
| 17   | Iron Valiant       |   20 |  11.90% |  55.00% |
| 18   | Zapdos             |   17 |  10.12% |  58.82% |
| 18   | Hoopa-Unbound      |   17 |  10.12% |  41.18% |
| 18   | Ursaluna           |   17 |  10.12% |  29.41% |
| 21   | Rotom-Wash         |   15 |   8.93% |  40.00% |
| 22   | Dragonite          |   14 |   8.33% |  57.14% |
| 22   | Sneasler           |   14 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Volcanion          |   14 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Crucibelle         |   14 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 26   | Roaring Moon       |   13 |   7.74% |  76.92% |
| 27   | Revenankh          |   12 |   7.14% |  58.33% |
| 27   | Meowscarada        |   12 |   7.14% |  58.33% |
| 29   | Miasmaw            |   11 |   6.55% |  54.55% |
| 29   | Stratagem          |   11 |   6.55% |  45.45% |
| 31   | Zamazenta-*        |   10 |   5.95% |  70.00% |
| 31   | Toxapex            |   10 |   5.95% |  60.00% |
| 31   | Hatterene          |   10 |   5.95% |  30.00% |
| 34   | Venomicon-Epilogue |    9 |   5.36% |  44.44% |
| 35   | Arcanine-Hisui     |    8 |   4.76% |  62.50% |
| 35   | Ting-Lu            |    8 |   4.76% |  12.50% |
| 37   | Caribolt           |    7 |   4.17% |  42.86% |
| 37   | Baxcalibur         |    7 |   4.17% |  28.57% |
| 37   | Enamorus           |    7 |   4.17% |  14.29% |
| 40   | Moltres-Galar      |    6 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Landorus-Therian   |    6 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Tomohawk           |    6 |   3.57% |  16.67% |
| 40   | Fidgit             |    6 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 44   | Tornadus-Therian   |    5 |   2.98% |  80.00% |
| 44   | Slowking           |    5 |   2.98% |  60.00% |
| 44   | Cresselia          |    5 |   2.98% |  60.00% |
| 44   | Aurumoth           |    5 |   2.98% |  40.00% |
| 44   | Snaelstrom         |    5 |   2.98% |  40.00% |
| 44   | Cinderace          |    5 |   2.98% |  40.00% |
| 44   | Syclant            |    5 |   2.98% |  20.00% |
| 44   | Garchomp           |    5 |   2.98% |  20.00% |
| 44   | Astrolotl          |    5 |   2.98% |   0.00% |
| 53   | Chromera           |    4 |   2.38% | 100.00% |
| 53   | Articuno-Galar     |    4 |   2.38% |  75.00% |
| 53   | Rillaboom          |    4 |   2.38% |  75.00% |
| 53   | Saharaja           |    4 |   2.38% |  25.00% |
| 53   | Iron Hands         |    4 |   2.38% |  25.00% |
| 58   | Colossoil          |    3 |   1.79% |  66.67% |
| 58   | Lilligant-Hisui    |    3 |   1.79% |  66.67% |
| 58   | Hydreigon          |    3 |   1.79% |  66.67% |
| 58   | Pyroak             |    3 |   1.79% |  66.67% |
| 58   | Azelf              |    3 |   1.79% |  33.33% |
| 58   | Grimmsnarl         |    3 |   1.79% |  33.33% |
| 58   | Braviary-Hisui     |    3 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 58   | Corviknight        |    3 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Enamorus-Therian   |    2 |   1.19% | 100.00% |
| 66   | Malaconda          |    2 |   1.19% | 100.00% |
| 66   | Hawlucha           |    2 |   1.19% | 100.00% |
| 66   | Smokomodo          |    2 |   1.19% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Thundurus-Therian  |    2 |   1.19% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Gastrodon          |    2 |   1.19% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Skeledirge         |    2 |   1.19% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Dondozo            |    2 |   1.19% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Pelipper           |    2 |   1.19% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Moltres            |    2 |   1.19% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Goodra-Hisui       |    2 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Glimmora           |    2 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Azumarill          |    2 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Voodoom            |    2 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Cawmodore          |    2 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Greninja-*         |    2 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Kerfluffle         |    1 |   0.60% | 100.00% |
| 82   | Clodsire           |    1 |   0.60% | 100.00% |
| 82   | Naviathan          |    1 |   0.60% | 100.00% |
| 82   | Scream Tail        |    1 |   0.60% | 100.00% |
| 82   | Regidrago          |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Breloom            |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Mew                |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Basculegion-F      |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Mollux             |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Indeedee           |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Polteageist-Antique |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Cloyster           |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Armarouge          |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Justyke            |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Torkoal            |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Volkraken          |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Zoroark-Hisui      |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Blissey            |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Ditto              |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Alomomola          |    1 |   0.60% |   0.00% |

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020 · Aug 1, 2023

CAP ladder usage stats of July and what they tell us about the metagame

By using this stats, here are some points:

Hemogoblin
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Venomicon
Miasmaw
Stratagem
Arghonaut
Caribolt
Great Tusk
Cawmodore

+----------------------------------------+
| Hemogoblin :hemogoblin:

Hemogoblin
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Venomicon
Miasmaw
Stratagem
Arghonaut
Caribolt
Cawmodore
Astrolotl
Syclant
Aurumoth
Colossoil
Jumbao
Fidgit
Krilowatt
Revenankh
Saharaja
Pyroak
Tomohawk
Kitsunoh
Cyclohm
Volkraken
Chromera
Voodoom
Plasmanta
Naviathan
Smokomodo
Mollux
Venomicon-Epilogue
Malaconda
Pajantom
Crucibelle
Kerfluffle
Necturna

If we used the the 4.52% cutoff, these next CAPs would be UU by usage:

Kerfluffle
Necturna

Total leads: 5226
+ ---- + ---------------- + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % |
+ ---- + ---------------- + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Snaelstrom | 7.78404% | 452 | 8.649% |
| 2 | Aurumoth | 5.12768% | 216 | 4.133% |
| 3 | Fidgit | 5.04236% | 266 | 5.090% |
| 4 | Syclant | 4.74157% | 215 | 4.114% |
| 5 | Samurott-Hisui | 4.07753% | 174 | 3.330% |
| 6 | Dragapult | 3.02903% | 121 | 2.315% |
| 7 | Krilowatt | 2.88237% | 126 | 2.411% |
| 8 | Hemogoblin | 2.70953% | 155 | 2.966% |
| 9 | Tomohawk | 2.48665% | 118 | 2.258% |
| 10 | Great Tusk | 2.41035% | 97 | 1.856% |
| 11 | Crucibelle | 2.36650% | 128 | 2.449% |
| 12 | Miasmaw | 2.30819% | 121 | 2.315% |
| 13 | Equilibra | 2.28591% | 123 | 2.354% |
| 14 | Saharaja | 2.26227% | 121 | 2.315% |
| 15 | Colossoil | 2.26190% | 129 | 2.468% |
| 16 | Stratagem | 2.21515% | 151 | 2.889% |
| 17 | Venomicon | 2.14132% | 102 | 1.952% |
| 18 | Astrolotl | 2.09897% | 119 | 2.277% |
| 19 | Jumbao | 1.87215% | 110 | 2.105% |
| 20 | Malaconda | 1.83059% | 113 | 2.162% |

weatherless...................82.57128%
offense.......................50.08230%
balance.......................33.13203%
sun...........................15.45039%
hyperoffense..................11.04194%
trickroom..................... 6.51432%
voltturn...................... 5.88586%
semistall..................... 3.70388%
stall......................... 2.03985%
rain.......................... 1.85640%
monotype...................... 0.81534%
sunoffense.................... 0.29358%
tailwind...................... 0.28746%
choice........................ 0.17351%
monosteel..................... 0.14284%
sand.......................... 0.13726%
monoground.................... 0.13284%
monoghost..................... 0.10367%
monofire...................... 0.09810%
multiweather.................. 0.07167%
monorock...................... 0.06036%
monobug....................... 0.05899%
hail.......................... 0.05634%
monofighting.................. 0.05507%
tricksun...................... 0.05239%
monowater..................... 0.04677%
monograss..................... 0.04648%
monoelectric.................. 0.04514%
monofairy..................... 0.04446%
monodark...................... 0.04017%
gravity....................... 0.03807%
monopoison.................... 0.03769%
monodragon.................... 0.03525%
rainoffense................... 0.03234%
sandoffense................... 0.02301%
monopsychic................... 0.01941%
sandstall..................... 0.01319%
monoflying.................... 0.01086%
mononormal.................... 0.00763%

Stalliness (mean: -0.188)
|##
-1.5 |####
|###########
-1.0 |##############
|###########################
-0.5 |##############################
|########################
0.0 |######################
|######################
+0.5|################
|############
+1.0|####
|###
+1.5|###
|
+2.0|###
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.51%

The most used CAP NFE is Flarelm :flarelm:

with the place number 105, followed by Scratchet :scratchet:

in 106
The most used CAP LC is Pluffle :pluffle:

in 197
Great Tusk :great-tusk:

, Kingambit :kingambit:

, Dragapult :dragapult:

, and Slowking-Galar :slowking-galar:

are the most used non-CAP Pokémon.

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020 · Sep 1, 2023

And because CAP ladder is still CAP...
CAP ladder usage stats of August and what they tell us about the ladder metagame

By using this stats, here are some points:

Hemogoblin
Venomicon
Cawmodore
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Miasmaw
Arghonaut
Stratagem
Caribolt
Revenankh

+----------------------------------------+
| Hemogoblin :hemogoblin:

Hemogoblin
Venomicon
Cawmodore
Equilibra
Snaelstrom
Miasmaw
Arghonaut
Stratagem
Caribolt
Revenankh
Krilowatt
Naviathan
Aurumoth
Saharaja
Astrolotl
Syclant
Smokomodo
Plasmanta
Colossoil
Tomohawk
Pajantom
Kitsunoh
Jumbao
Pyroak
Voodoom
Volkraken
Crucibelle
Malaconda
Mollux
Chromera
Cyclohm
Kerfluffle
Fidgit
Necturna
Venomicon-Epilogue

If we used the the 4.52% cutoff, these next CAPs would be UU by usage:

Necturna
Venomicon-Epilogue

Total leads: 17116
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Snaelstrom | 10.17404% | 1960 | 11.451% |
| 2 | Venomicon | 5.91038% | 884 | 5.165% |
| 3 | Krilowatt | 4.28829% | 601 | 3.511% |
| 4 | Stratagem | 3.77188% | 694 | 4.055% |
| 5 | Grimmsnarl | 2.94927% | 467 | 2.728% |
| 6 | Syclant | 2.88907% | 448 | 2.617% |
| 7 | Astrolotl | 2.81977% | 504 | 2.945% |
| 8 | Equilibra | 2.76167% | 384 | 2.244% |
| 9 | Crucibelle | 2.65127% | 475 | 2.775% |
| 10 | Fidgit | 2.58245% | 531 | 3.102% |
| 11 | Aurumoth | 2.53457% | 402 | 2.349% |
| 12 | Hemogoblin | 2.44069% | 416 | 2.430% |
| 13 | Miasmaw | 2.40354% | 446 | 2.606% |
| 14 | Glimmora | 2.33565% | 415 | 2.425% |
| 15 | Malaconda | 2.30273% | 344 | 2.010% |
| 16 | Colossoil | 2.27639% | 419 | 2.448% |
| 17 | Cawmodore | 2.26328% | 428 | 2.501% |
| 18 | Voodoom | 2.11734% | 352 | 2.057% |
| 19 | Jumbao | 1.93018% | 369 | 2.156% |
| 20 | Arghonaut | 1.80004% | 299 | 1.747% |

weatherless...................86.79684%
offense.......................46.54895%
balance.......................29.00699%
hyperoffense..................16.80339%
sun...........................12.21093%
semistall..................... 4.79255%
voltturn...................... 3.07502%
stall......................... 2.84812%
rain.......................... 0.88040%
monotype...................... 0.84126%
trickroom..................... 0.70772%
choice........................ 0.61306%
sunoffense.................... 0.56240%
monofire...................... 0.30409%
sand.......................... 0.10470%
monobug....................... 0.10427%
monodragon.................... 0.10110%
monoghost..................... 0.08211%
monosteel..................... 0.07727%
monograss..................... 0.07512%
tailwind...................... 0.05490%
monoground.................... 0.04875%
rainoffense................... 0.04268%
sandstall..................... 0.03868%
monofairy..................... 0.03728%
monopoison.................... 0.02161%
monorock...................... 0.01869%
sunstall...................... 0.01732%
monoelectric.................. 0.01717%
monowater..................... 0.01698%
rainstall..................... 0.01549%
tricksun...................... 0.01107%
hail.......................... 0.00719%
sandoffense................... 0.00604%
monoflying.................... 0.00499%
monodark...................... 0.00441%
mononormal.................... 0.00345%
monofighting.................. 0.00337%
multiweather.................. 0.00006%

Stalliness (mean: -0.217)
|#####
-1.5|##########
|##############
-1.0|####################
|##############################
-0.5|##########################
|#######################
0.0|#######################
|####################
+0.5|#################
|############
+1.0|########
|####
+1.5|###
|#
+2.0|###
|
+2.5|#
|#
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.45%

The most used CAP NFE is Flarelm with the place number 122, followed by Argalis in 158 and Coribalis in 172
The most used CAP LC is Voodoll in 209
Dragapult , Great Tusk , Kingambit , and Gholdengo are the most used non-CAP Pokémon.
Ababo and Scattervein are now in PS!

SHSP · Sep 20, 2023

oh boy new meta shift time for SHSP to post about it in the metagame thread

Seriously, though. Teal Mask meta is (mostly) implemented, and I'm curious to hear what's been working and what hasn't for you guys. I haven't played much CAP yet, but there are a few things I've got my eye on:

:ogerpon:

It feels like most of the forms of this thing have potential to be really good. Hearthflame is pretty self explanatory at this point, and it really appreciates being able to prey on a lot of the CAP fatmons (argh, libra, even muscling through book with setup). Wellspring is really nice to have as well, does a lot of similar things and tends to be pretty resilient as well. Cornerstone is the one I'm most curious about, directly being able to Ivy Cudgel book as a physical attacker seems like a really huge boon, and I like how it seems to match up against the field so far. Base form losing a lot harder to book probably neuters it here, though.

:equilibra:

These aren't live yet- we're working through the process of getting returned moves back onto what lost them- but the return of some powerful tools to these three's arsenals in particular is exciting. Libra getting Doom Desire is probably the biggest potential shift of the lot, and could set up a lot of really powerful gamestates. Syclant and Auru getting TG back also puts them in a really unique spot, and I'm curious if that can push them back into some viable positions.

MC Squared · Sep 22, 2023

I know Poltergeist got removed from Revenankh's Gen 9 movepool during a vote few months back, but since it's now a TM, will it get the move back, or is it forever down the memory hole?

fiish · Sep 22, 2023

MaahirMomtaz12 said:
I know Poltergeist got removed from Revenankh's Gen 9 movepool during a vote few months back, but since it's now a TM, will it get the move back, or is it forever down the memory hole?

poltergeist got removed from revenankh due to balance reasons, not because of the move not being a tm. it will probably get the move back due to the increased powerlevel

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020 · Oct 1, 2023

CAP ladder usage stats of September and what they tell us about the ladder metagame

By using this stats (1500), here are some points:

Hemogoblin
Venomicon
Snaelstrom
Equilibra
Cawmodore
Miasmaw
Arghonaut
Colossoil
Stratagem
Revenankh

+----------------------------------------+
| Hemogoblin :sv/hemogoblin:

Hemogoblin
Venomicon
Snaelstrom
Equilibra
Cawmodore
Miasmaw
Arghonaut
Colossoil
Stratagem
Revenankh
Caribolt
Plasmanta
Krilowatt
Pyroak
Astrolotl
Tomohawk
Saharaja
Venomicon-Epilogue
Kitsunoh
Mollux
Fidgit
Syclant
Aurumoth
Naviathan
Jumbao
Smokomodo
Voodoom
Pajantom
Cyclohm
Malaconda
Volkraken
Chromera
Crucibelle
Necturna
Kerfluffle

If we used the the 4.52% cutoff, these next CAPs would be UU (or lower!) by usage:

Volkraken
Chromera
Crucibelle
Necturna
Kerfluffle

Total leads: 2892
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Snaelstrom | 10.26258% | 270 | 9.336% |
| 2 | Fidgit | 4.62967% | 127 | 4.391% |
| 3 | Krilowatt | 4.28990% | 91 | 3.147% |
| 4 | Cawmodore | 3.68723% | 99 | 3.423% |
| 5 | Stratagem | 3.65125% | 95 | 3.285% |
| 6 | Ninetales-Alola | 3.54956% | 79 | 2.732% |
| 7 | Colossoil | 3.31084% | 84 | 2.905% |
| 8 | Tomohawk | 3.05906% | 141 | 4.876% |
| 9 | Equilibra | 2.92459% | 73 | 2.524% |
| 10 | Aurumoth | 2.42517% | 63 | 2.178% |
| 11 | Venomicon | 2.07744% | 63 | 2.178% |
| 12 | Syclant | 2.05177% | 62 | 2.144% |
| 13 | Hemogoblin | 2.05150% | 56 | 1.936% |
| 14 | Malaconda | 2.01938% | 67 | 2.317% |
| 15 | Pyroak | 1.98662% | 53 | 1.833% |
| 16 | Dragapult | 1.94182% | 53 | 1.833% |
| 17 | Saharaja | 1.85137% | 50 | 1.729% |
| 18 | Miasmaw | 1.76315% | 52 | 1.798% |
| 19 | Jumbao | 1.69302% | 64 | 2.213% |
| 20 | Indeedee | 1.56450% | 28 | 0.968% |

weatherless...................80.03898%
offense.......................46.48822%
balance.......................31.52113%
hyperoffense..................17.08422%
sun...........................11.44979%
hail.......................... 7.10900%
voltturn...................... 3.68847%
semistall..................... 3.32417%
hailoffense................... 2.40477%
stall......................... 1.58226%
trickroom..................... 1.42648%
monotype...................... 1.31064%
rain.......................... 1.19226%
sunoffense.................... 0.67155%
monoelectric.................. 0.44381%
sand.......................... 0.24507%
monowater..................... 0.21369%
choice........................ 0.19282%
monobug....................... 0.16753%
monodragon.................... 0.14472%
monosteel..................... 0.11016%
tailwind...................... 0.08268%
monofairy..................... 0.05997%
monoflying.................... 0.05191%
monoghost..................... 0.04977%
monofighting.................. 0.04341%
monoground.................... 0.03971%
multiweather.................. 0.03511%
monofire...................... 0.03461%
sandoffense................... 0.02503%
monopoison.................... 0.02052%
monopsychic................... 0.01919%
monorock...................... 0.01391%
monograss..................... 0.01123%
sunstall...................... 0.00000%

Stalliness (mean: -0.245)
-2.0|
|####
-1.5|####
|###################
-1.0|############################
|########################
-0.5|##############################
|##############################
0.0|########################
|##########################
+0.5|#######################
|##########
+1.0|###
|###
+1.5|###
|
+2.0|#
|
+2.5|
|##
+3.0|
|
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.43%

The most used CAP NFE is Flarelm with the place number 117, followed by Coribalis in 176
The most used CAP LC is Pluffle in 237
Dragapult , Great Tusk , Heatran , Kingambit , Ninetales-Alola, and Walking Wake are the most used non-CAP Pokémon. (Also Ogerpon-Hearthflame , but it has been banned)
Ababo is the best CAP.

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020 · Oct 12, 2023

Ricardo [old] made an amazing tool that graphically displays the usage rates for Pokémon on Pokémon Showdown and kindly added CAP as one of the displayable tiers.

Take a look at it here!

shnowshner · Oct 15, 2023

metagame post

let;s talk about stuff that makes me not want to build sv cap! specifically the things that are our fault! (and how we could go about fixing that!) for extra clarity i want to spark discussion instead of preach gospel but please make sure to agree with my post anyway because i'm awesome thanks

CULPRIT #1 — :hemogoblin:

MY CHOLESTROL LEVELS

this little shit may be my precious child but it's become increasingly clear that hemogoblin is above the curve and makes the building process way less interesting and dynamic. pixiespeed + fire stab + bulk up just bowls over most mons in the metagame discounting tera, and i find that a lot of mons that are used to check it don't really accomplish that purpose convincingly or aren't nearly as strong in cap as they are in ou. you'd think that this mon would help a lot in keeping offense in check but it sorta just supplants itself onto offense because it wrecks house against other offense, and with any of your favorite HO tools at its disposal it becomes nasty to try and check without like a dondozo or preserving tera (both of which have their own shortcomings). like +1 adamant can ko neutral tera walking wake. wake isn't close to a frail mon but it can just be blown up anyhow. you have no boosting item. this mon's supposed to get away with less stats (and implied lower overall power) yet it gets more out of the stats it does have than like anything else in the game.

i'm honestly in favor of just axing espeed altogether, while i think the move was more necessary pre-teal mask, hemo has benefitted from dlc a ton with all the mons it feasts on and the various new additions that make for great partners or let it further abuse its strengths. feel like the goal of bang average was to make a mon hold a niche in the metagame despite being weaker than the competition, as it stands hemo is the competition and i don't think it's going to be any less problematic to build and play around as long as hemo has a move like pixilate extreme speed. maybe you take away setup and force it to rely solely on its strong attacking options? the main issue regarding hemo is that finding a route to setup isn't too hard and the payoff is fucking massive, so i imagine one of the two needs to be looked at.

CULPRIT #2 — :venomicon:

SHSPHYEAN NIGHTMARE

venomicon-p is just that guy this generation. it's a mon that can brute force progress either through its bevy of options to wear down the opponent (knock, sludge poison, rocks, cane confuse, u-turn) or by simply deciding it won't die because stamina gave it +2 defense. in a way it's part of the reason bulkier teams are allowed to breathe but at the same time venom is like, a huge pain in the ass for bulky teams to load into because it has such variety in what it can use to wear down teams. really gatekeeps a lot of mons from playing the game and for those that have stuck around it usually finds an avenue to make their life worse.

tbh i think the only thing you'd need to do is remove knock off, of all the annoying moves venom likes to spam this screws with potentially good checks the most, like knockless venom is now really uncomfortable into gholdengo and glowking, and needs to bring the right coverage options to confidently take down specific targets (which can be hard to fit depending on your utility picks). epilogue will miss the move but epilogue is like mon number 67 in the metagame rn it's not a huge loss.

CULPRIT #3 — :arghonaut:

ARGH>... NO GOOD

cap's third big gatekeeper, a mon that supplies all of spike stack + bulky water + dark resist + tera user + unaware + phasing + knock it's crazy good and makes arghonaut a very easy pick in most cases. i mean we've all seen venom/argh/libra cores spammed throughout both this gen and last gen and like it's predictable but it got there because it's a very good game-winning core. i don't find it as oppressive as vemom or hemo since it's significantly less dangerous on its own, but argh centralizes the meta to a pretty significant degree and puts a lot of mons off-limits solely by existing. i feel that argh also benefits a lot from gen 9 having shitty hazard control, because getting multiple layers up can be a simple task and any boots users you come across have to contend with knock off should they want to switch into you.

i'm not really sure what you'd address here or if you have to at all, in a lot of ways argh feels as good as it is because a lot of mons that could bully it into submission are just venom food. not super relevant but imagine okidogi right. toxic chain is a lie. run guard dog bulk up, argh can't phase you and you can try to fish for poison, very funny. you then load into book and get stamina'd. life sucks. i feel like a weaker venom could result in a weaker argh as it makes grass and fairy clickers less of a headache to build around, and argh in general just appreciates a mon like venom easing the vulnerability you have to powerful ground/fighting/poison moves.

AND NOW, THE TROUBLING TRIO (THEY AREn'T THAT BAD BUT UH OH! COULD BE???)

:krilowatt:

krilowatt is a gross little creature i do not like them, but it's less of a gen 9 thing and more of a "who let this happen" "and why is it still happening" kinda ordeal. kril just has a very obnoxious gameplan but unlike other annoying pivot mons it has randomly good bulk + immunity to passive damage, so you can't even try to outplay it since it's able to freely choose its interactions instead of needing to weigh the right time to come out or use a specific move. i would be so down for a multi-generational nerf to kril, specifically make it a mon that relies on magic guard to both expedite it's offensive potential while letting it survive defensively, instead of an offensive mon that is hard to punish and harder to beat into submission. tera has really just made this mon more of a pain as it can either opt for extra damage or a way to bypass its checks.

:equilibra:

i think equilibra has been a great spot in gen 9 thus far. it's mixed walling potential is through the roof, without sacrificing on power given its mammoth special attack and always applicable ground stab. having a rapid spinner that gholdengo says "Oh, Fuck" to is a huge boon as well. what i really like about the mon, however, is that it's fairly restricted in what it does. earth power and spin are great moves but then its like ????? flash cannon?? who you hitting. aura sphere??? protect to milk lefties health? pain split???? as good of a glue mon equilibra is, it suffers from a fairly unimpressive movepool that many pokemon can readily take advantage of, and a lot of the time it feels like a huge momentum sink as it can really only deny the opponent progress instead of make too much on its own. the teal mask, however, had other plans, and doom desire looks to return in short order. needless to say, i am worried that this may tip the balance libra's struck for the past months. doom desire does a lot to solve the issue of equilibra coming in and then needing to find something to do, because there are many times where spinning or attacking isn't super conductive to anything, but setting up doom desire can be great for manipulating the opponent into playing a specific way, or simply launching an unblockable damage string into a mon and forcing a concession. tl:dr libra is a really good mon and it's getting buffed and that could be problematic down the road.

:malaconda:

oh no! it was a quartet the whole time! you FOOL! sun is really good in cap did u know. ou had kept wake around earlier this year because if you wanted sun support you either need torkoal, which does little outside of set sun, or manual setting, requiring extra braincells to click the sunny day button and is also worse than torkoal. cap has two brand new setters and that has huge ramifications on the metagame. like sun has not been a mainstay of battling for a long time, there's been moments like venusaur sun in ss but these are usually just fads and die off after a while. the advent of protosynthesis and various high-power fire-types like iron moth, ceruledge, and hemogoblin (that one's ours) has turned sun from a matchup fish into the matchup you're looking to fish. it's not a flawless playstyle by any means but it's perhaps the biggest difference between the two metagames. a lot of the dangerous sun abusers in ou no longer need to shepherd around an NU mon to function, malaconda has proven to be a super serviceable mon outside of sun setting thanks to its utility options, insane special defense, and unfortunately fine damage output. jumbao isn't doing so hot given the coverage dilemma and insatiable appetite for tera fire, but it's not downright awful, like at the end of the day its a sun setter that can healing wish you can make it work. we're at the point of cap that trying to keep parity between us and ou is basically impossible given how strong certain mons are and how that reverberates in the builder, but malaconda and lil bro yumbao are directly influencing the power of regular ou mons and that's not something we've traditionally had to deal with outside of like, fidgit being an ho gremlin.

the only other cap thing i'd want to talk about is that plasmanta is funny as fuck right now but i'd want to play around with it more before recommending it as an anti-meta pick, just trust me that the magnet rizzler is cash and will give you the most hysterical 6-0 matchups of your life should you keep gambling.

Brambane · Oct 16, 2023

SV CAP is pretty miserable to build, I am actually fairly detached from the meta. A big part of it are non-CAPs; Kingambit and Iron Valiant are absolute goons just like in OU, but they have very cleary very splashable CAP answers which makes building feel quite static and obvious at times.

Hemogoblin just has the greatest moves of all time. Heatran's glorious downfall and the overall averageness of Toxapex really let the Goblin loose. Fire-types without SE STAB usually lose to it 1v1 because they can't kill it faster than it kills them. The Pokemon we designed to answer Hemogoblin really well just ended up not being very good, and the archetype it was supposed to help suppress ends up being one of its best teams. If you don't run Venomicon, Iron Moth, or your own Hemogoblin, the game is HARD. I think you could replace ExtremeSpeed with Quick Attack and call it a day.

Venomicon is bullshit but its very useful and probably healthy bullshit? It does glue a lot of builds together and is book binding balance for most teams. schno is right tho, Knock Off is utter rubbish and should be removed. It shouldn't be able to punish Glowking and Gholdengo THIS hard.

Arghonaut is dated design, not in the Unaware Spikes Circle Throw part tho. That is fine and Arghonaut does provide extremely unique defensive properties that makes the CAP meta fundamentally different from OU. The dated design is its frankly gross 110 Attack and Knock Off. Arghonaut's Knock Off was kept around but in a metagame where removal is tough and its easier to punish turns when foes to try remove hazards, it makes Arghonaut way too good at the hazard game. But it also can like just 2HKO or 3HKO a bunch of Dark weak mons since it has 110 Attack lol. The defensive profile of Arghonaut is very useful, but offensively I think it should be limited to moves like Spikes+Circle Throw, Body Press, and Foul Play.

Krilowatt is horseshit and should be nerfed in every generation, the Pokemon is either broken, toxic, or an unacceptable lobster. There isn't a metagame out there where Krilowatt feels "good," it either feels like the most broken shit in the world, utter cheese the punishes balance or its BAAAD. I would either like to see it bad in every generation or allow it to be more conventionally punishable beyond clicking Knock Off into it.

Equilibra is probably the most "honest" great CAP right now, it does a couple useful defensive things but has a fair number of ways to punish it. I am little nervous about Doom Desire coming back in this particular meta, but in my gut I feel like Equilibra will still be fine.

Sun is gross and has been all gen. Jumbao was obnoxious early in SV but Malaconda's ability to click 1 of 3 very good and very punishing buttons is probably even more obnoxious. I don't think the sun setters are as much the issue as things like Hemogoblin, Iron Moth, Great Tusk, Roaring Moon and Walking Wake are, but that itself is kind of the problem right? It's a lot of Pokemon that are just fine in OU but can stack on top of each other to make a grossly threatening archetype, especially when there are different flavors of sun to run.

snake · Oct 16, 2023

Quick post here:

Recalling Hemogoblin's process, one route of interest before setup moves were allowed again was enabling Fake Out + Extreme Speed (again, with no setup). Fake Out + Extreme Speed would very much lean into the idea of being anti-offense while also being significantly less lucrative on its own offensive teams. Of course, this would significantly alter Hemogoblin's identity, but this pixilate-boosted combination is known to be quite strong in metas where it exists.

Generally agree with the sentiment that Venomicon and Arghonaut shouldn't have Knock Off. Of course losing these moves would be a blow to their viability, but these CAPs have significant strengths outside of their access to Knock Off, and they both also have access to Foul Play for replaceable coverage if desired.

Waldinji · Oct 17, 2023

snake said:
Generally agree with the sentiment that Venomicon and Arghonaut shouldn't have Knock Off. Of course losing these moves would be a blow to their viability, but these CAPs have significant strengths outside of their access to Knock Off, and they both also have access to Foul Play for replaceable coverage if desired.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement of removing knock off , Not just because The blow would be Major & They're some sort of Necessary evil in CAP from a defensive standpoint , But Krilowatt Requiring Knock Off as a way to stop it means that if you remove 2 of the most splashable knock offs in the format. Dealing with a mon that's already been insane the entire gen would be even harder without Argh's Knock Off notably. Krillo being already hard to deal with for teams that don't have bad mons outside of Glowking & Ogerpon-water as its checks (or if you're willing to use a defensive tera obviously) and Knock off being "Krilo's main counter". I don't see Knock off removal being healthy in the longer term

snake · Oct 17, 2023

Waldinji said:
I'm not sure I agree with that statement of removing knock off , Not just because The blow would be Major & They're some sort of Necessary evil in CAP from a defensive standpoint , But Krilowatt Requiring Knock Off as a way to stop it means that if you remove 2 of the most splashable knock offs in the format. Dealing with a mon that's already been insane the entire gen would be even harder without Argh's Knock Off notably. Krillo being already hard to deal with for teams that don't have bad mons outside of Glowking & Ogerpon-water as its checks (or if you're willing to use a defensive tera obviously) and Knock off being "Krilo's main counter". I don't see Knock off removal being healthy in the longer term

I think this says more about how oppressive Krilowatt is, instead of how necessary Knock Off is to Venomicon and Arghonaut’s gameplan. I think it’d make more sense to agree with the previous two posts by shnowshner and Brambane (which were much longer form than mine), which talk about why Krilowatt is fairly oppressive at least in this gen.

Waldinji · Oct 17, 2023

snake said:
I think this says more about how oppressive Krilowatt is, instead of how necessary Knock Off is to Venomicon and Arghonaut’s gameplan. I think it’d make more sense to agree with the previous two posts by shnowshner and Brambane (which were much longer form than mine), which talk about why Krilowatt is fairly oppressive at least in this gen.

That's also true , Krilowatt is very opressive , and that I didn't disagree (as a Matter of Fact , I would agree with the opressive effect krilo has on Teambuilding) , but Veno & Argh's Knock off are still insanely spammable , easy to fit due to how good the standalone mons are & Consistant , Compare that to Let's say Ogerpon's Knock Off on a more support set (Cudgel , Spikes , Knock , Grass Stab) , which means you can't auto-win games , making Ogerpon a much less Valuable pick as a whlole. That's why I said these 2 Knock off , despite how opressive they are themselves , Seem kind of a necessary evil. And every other knock off user is either bad or Gets Destroyed by Krilo anyway.

SHSP · Oct 17, 2023

I certainly wouldn't hate the knock removals from Argh and Book. I think the discussion so far has highlighted that aspect of the mons being VERY strong, and I think -knock would keep them a lot healthier? Unlike some of the other mons that have been talked about (looking at you Kril) I think both Argh and Book are a lot healthier in how they play and can offer a lot more.

Kril is a pain in the ass. I wouldn't hate if we tapped it down just for the sheer amount of headache it is, but it definitely could use a closer look in this current meta (or later on in Indigo Disk meta). I haven't seen it much personally post-DLC, so I can't really speak to how it performs after those changes.

I wouldn't be too worried ab Doom Desire Libra coming back. I think Libra's got a ton of stuff it wants to run already this gen, and Doom fitting in is going to be tricky. It's certainly a buff to an already very good mon, though, and it definitely deserves to have a close eye on it going forwards.

Goblin is the mon I'm most torn about. I personally hate playing against it (unsurprising coming from a known HO aficionado), but I wanna echo a few things that Spoo was saying on Discord. The moveset it has (really just BU+Pix Espeed+Bitter) is really carrying the mon, and you can't really touch any one of those moves without the house of cards crumbling. Pix Espeed alone makes me abhor the thing sometimes, but I'd be curious to hear how people think it can be addressed, and if it needs to at all.

Sun I don't see the danger in as much, tbh. Conda's really annoying to play vs sometimes with the utility movepool it has and how it matches up into some of the meta, but Bao isn't that great in this meta (even if I think it's better than most people think it is). It's a very good archetype, yeah, but I don't see its better state in CAP compared to the Torkoal-mandatory OU builds as inherently bad? It's also certainly not just the setters: the proto mons and the really good fires alone make it way more consistent than the recent gen Venusaur/Cinderace style builds that had some run in SS and other gens. Something to watch out for, sure, but it doesn't feel like it needs immediate attention.

spoo · Oct 17, 2023

Long post, but I really, really don't like the idea of taking tiering action on almost anything right now. Been playing + building for post-DLC more than most folks recently, and while the tier is far from perfect, a lot of the perceived issues with the state of the meta don't seem 100% fair to me. I understand where issues with the "big 5" CAPs are coming from, but I think they are being a little overblown and are coming at a very awkward time.

Venomicon's 3atk set is the only one I'd call close to problematic, but the sheer practicality of rocks sets often eclipse any upside you might get from running the more "broken" sludge/press/knock combo. Granted, its effectiveness as a rocker is also kind of a nuisance from a hazard game perspective, but as a wall, it's quite easy to take advantage of––especially in the balance mirror, the mon often ends up just being a roost bot (it is exceptionally easy to force a knock on most builds) or a momentum sink into ghold or kril fats. Frankly its bulk is more of an issue than whatever progress-making tools it has, but either way, the mon is an phenomenal building asset for balance/fat teams and I don't think this is an aspect of the meta that we would be justified in targeting.

Hemogoblin's greatest strength has always been its matchup against offense and this still holds true post-DLC. I won't pretend that its presence doesn't constrict offense, but taking a closer look at the archetype's place in the meta atm, it's hardly in a bad spot. Yes, it was obviously at a high point when Ursaluna was legal, but it was strong even at Hemo's peak viability during CAPPL and has since proven resilient in finding new workarounds to the oppressive pixilate espeed. Hemogoblin is also not so problematic for balance after losing Knock despite a greater variety of 4th moves now being viable. Even beyond Venom's effectiveness and ubiquitousness as a check, to say that there are only three mons total that reliably beat Hemo (including Hemo itself) is a crazy statement and I think speaks to a refusal to innovate more than Hemo being truly overpowered. To say nothing of the more common/proven answers that balance can run, I think Pex, Heatran, and Skeledirge are all increasigly practical mons in general that I don't really see people using. Offense is forced to overcome many, many barriers right now, and while Hemogoblin is a particularly big one, it's far from singlehandedly invalidating the archetype as a whole.

Krilowatt is the worst offender in my eyes but that has less to do with how "broken" it is and more just that I think the tier might be better off without it. I think it's more of a skill matchup than a builder matchup, as was the case for most of SS, but the issues it produces are very real and boiling them down to "just outplay" wouldn't really be fair, either. Still, while I agree the mon is definitely annoying, I feel like it's also worth pointing out that the position of "Kril contributes literally nothing to the tier" is a misguided one. Krilowatt slots nicely on removal-less teams that stack boots/Spikes immune mons and just opt to trade hazards, and the viability of these teams is a welcome release valve for the issue of our lopsided hazard game (not as bad as OU but still frustrating). Kril is one of the main reasons that the powerful Argh/Libra/Venom balances and Gliscor fats that we're seeing in OU aren't currently running over the metagame. Kril is also one of the best Hemo countermeasures on BO, stacking well with soft checks like Gunk Cinderace or other offensive fires. Maybe some of this is "broken checks broken," or "annoying checks annoying." But for all its faults, I think Kril may promote a decent amount of diversity in the meta.

Arghonaut falls into a similar boat as Hemo where I think it's more oppressive for offense than bulkier teams, but I'd argue it's actually at a low point in recent viability. We are seeing more competition from other Spikers, Knock Off users, Kingambit answers, and general anti-offense options than ever; the 3-ish best offensive waters run through Argh with relative ease, as do mons like Roaring Moon, Rillaboom, Hemogoblin, etc on HO; the prevalence of spikestack often leaves Argh unable to keep up vs the mons it's supposed to check; I could go on, but these are the main points in my mind. Argh is absolutely a pain for offense to deal with, but just like with Hemo, it's only one part of the story––and again, I'll emphasize that offense is not in dire straits right now anyways.

Will only briefly touch on Equilibra since it seems like folks don't mind the mon that much, but a Spikes-immune spinner with mostly positive or neutral matchups into the common setters is a really incredible thing for this tier to have. Doom Desire will be nice on some teams but won't break the mon. Sun is also very, very good, perhaps better than we'd ideally want, but it's not at the level where we can justify any concrete action. The playstyle has a high skill ceiling and I think Darek has shown how surprisingly versatile it is, but for the most part, I see it as a manageable element of the tier.

I'll wrap up this post by stressing some situational context. Metagame development is very slow currently since we don't have a big tour running. The ssnl is about to finish, and retro cup was very small to begin with, having only one SV game per series as well. Many developments in OU have also yet to migrate to CAP because of this reason. We are still seeing active tiering in OU, too, with Ursa just being banned a week ago and a potential suspect launching after the current tiering survey concludes. There is a new CAP releasing in just a few weeks. We have another major DLC releasing before the end of the year ("Winter 2023"). CAPCL will happen soon after, during which we will no doubt see further meta developments. I know some people think the metagame is in a bad spot, but this is quite literally the worst time for us to conduct any nerfs. The meta is very unstable and will only continue to get shaken up. I recommend that people continue to patiently experiment, innovate, borrow from OU, and push the meta forward during this period, instead of advocating for hasty nerfs and being defeatist about the state of the tier––even if some mons are definitely a bit annoying right now.

pannu · Oct 19, 2023

great post shnowshner tho i wanna throw in my 2 cents

argh, krill and hemo feel like same-y to me in that they're sorta archetype dependant skillchecks as a player / builder.

:arghonaut:

is annoying as a motherfucker vs HO and BO that relies on set up sweepers to win, and having a spikes setter that can outlast every viable* removal is crazy cool. However, i don't think its broken, specially with 8 pp recover its very easy to wear down, and multiple times I've accidentally built x1 lead x5 physical breaker HO's and gotten kekwd at preview in tests, however i feel most skilled players that using compitent, non mu fishing teams should always be able to deal with argh.

*theres some guys that can match its recovery or like force it out but lets be honest whos using corv in 2023 and spin hawk is a meme

:krillowatt: i don't rlly wanna say too much abt this guy other than you guys seriously overestimate how strong this thing is, literally put tera grass on any regen mon or wall (its actually a good tera bcuz it deals with broken wellspring, not solely for krill) orlike, click knock off or do doubles??? its entirely ur fault as a player if u get stuck in a vortex vs this thing. its super fine.

:hemogoblin:

is a mon I've thought abt a lot over the course of playtest + pl + ssnl + retrocup, i think its by far the most limiting mon in the builder and i do want to see it get nerfed, however i don't want to see anything goofy I've seen suggested like -espeed or anything. all i want from hemo is -bulk up -moonlight +growth +spin. As someone who plays OMs this thing is basically just entei @ altaraite so spamming it has been very familiar to me, pixiespeed is such a strong tool vs offense to have and its strong too, set up, hazards, boom is awesome utility on HO, and it has a very deep movepool, however it doesn't rlly make use of most of its moves too often. growth > bulk up makes it easier to revenge kill which makes it easier to deal with while still keeping its core strengths. Also i would just rlly like it to have spin bcuz another spinner that could threaten dengo would be so cool and make dengo hstack less mindless and strong.

uhh venom is prolly fine u suck if u build a team that cant force it out, rocks is a bad set tho always run 3a, libra is also fine just run ground immunities lol

Metagame Scarlet and Violet CAP Metagame Discussion

shnowshner

but does he even stand a chance?

SHSP

nutritious blend

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time!

quziel

I am the Scientist now

SHSP

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020

Waldinji

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time!

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020

SHSP

MC Squared

Live well. It is the greatest revenge.

fiish

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020

1998 Toyota GT-One TS020

shnowshner

but does he even stand a chance?

Brambane

protect the wetlands

snake

Waldinji

snake

Waldinji

SHSP

spoo

pannu

But I've got him where I want him now